Friday is for Friends

Makes perfect sense to me: the Holy Spirit is that which both reveals God's will to us and enables obedience by us. The Holy Spirit, in this way, is God's activity of faithful covenant-keeping.

I tremble to even mention that perichoresis flitted across my mind as you talked of "interplay of wills in the Trinity"! 8)

This sounds akin to the early Quakers' assertion that Jesus Christ has come to teach us himself, without the need of priests. The Quakers thus sat in silent worship, waiting for the Holy Spirit (the"Light") to instruct them corporately as to God's will. Then--the amazing part--they acted on it, even if it didn't make sense. Now they act, but I would argue more out of reason than from intense communion with the HS. That being said, your summary only whets my appetite to actually read the book, which I can imagine going in a very different direction from the early Quakers.

My first thought in reading your post was “ahhhh… a friendly conversation sounds good after the Calvinism-Arminian war,” and then my second thought as I got down through the paragraph was, “crap! more books to order.”

I can’t keep up with you Scot…I am still doing grad school reading. The problem is, all of the books you mention sound like “must reads” for me…hence my dilemma. I think what I am going to do is enter this books into my bibliographic database and link your commentary to them as notes…to go back later when I have more time.

Both books by Telford and Humphrey sound extremely interesting to me. Telford’s, because my research interest in the masters and now in the doctoral studies is church and state, faith and politics. As I go along, I generate more questions than answers. You (or rather Telford) are absolutely right in my opinion about political visions and the connection to the self. There no one In history who has had a greater impact politically than Jesus, and yet he did it by surrendering the self, and praying “not my will but thy will be done.”

I used to pray the “Our Father” every morning with a special emphasis on “Let your kingdom come, Let your will be done in MY HEART as it is in heaven…”

I have also been on a quest to discover a deeper experiential relationship with the Holy Spirit. “The kingdom of God is … righteousness, peace and joy IN THE HOLY SPIRIT.” Your (Telford’s) comment on God’s will being the Holy Spirit is fascinating.

I finished reading the last chapter of biography of Pope John XXIII by Christian Feldman yesterday, through my tears on the treadmill – impacted by the political influence of that good man. Here is a priceless quote from page 138: “And finally, this can’t be said often enough: He trusted the Holy Spirit.”

Pope Roncalli went from being a farmer’s kid, to being the spiritual leader of a billion Catholics by simply being good, kind to others and faithful to God. He was ready to leave this earth to go to be with God in 1939, almost 20 years before becoming the Pope. Not only did he change the face of Catholicism with Vatican II, but on October 25, 1962, he was instrumental in helping Kennedy and Khrushchev pull back from the brink of global nuclear war because he had taken the time and the risk to begin to build some trust and conversation with Khrushchev a few months earlier. “For such a time as this…”

Diane #3: I LOVE the Quakers! I started visiting a “Friends” church recently. I like the quite, and the idea of holding people in the light…and I am not in the mood to listen to some guy talk for 45 minutes.

Darren #4: Do you know the name of the book by Newbigin? Sounds like another book I should read if it deals with pluralism.

This sounds good. It makes me think, among other things, that "obedience is better than sacrifice." I realize that some use this as an excuse to ignore many larger global issues, but don't we inevitably have to ignore many important things in order to effectively obey God's call on us particularly? (Jesus limited the scope of his work out of obedience, as did the 12 after him, as did Paul, as did Mother Teresa, etc.) It sounds like Telford is saying that any 'worthy' activity can still be done out of selfishness, and frequently is, as a compromise means of avoiding or usurping God's particular governance of us through the Spirit.

It makes me think too, that the Holy Spirit is often rightly associated with power, but it is not an impersonal power. It is the Spirit, the very inner person, of God himself. If any person's will is within that person's spirit, then the will of God is also within his Spirit. The kingdom of God is justice, peace and joy IN the Holy Spirit (in the will of God, as part of his inner person). I'm seeing that verse much differently right now, as I am with "kingdom" itself. Much thanks to you and to Telford.

A comment about Jesus Creed (not necessarily belonging here): the section in the book about Joseph and Mary is one of the most moving treatments of the "Christmas Story" I've ever encountered. We're reading these sections as a family out loud on Christmas Eve this year. I can't even read the Joseph section without tears and I've encouraged folks in our faith community to use this devotionally this year. Blessings Scot for your gift!

Jose, I think Darren #4 references "The Gospel in a Pluralist Society."

Speaking of tears, Howard, your comment #8 brought them to my eyes... Thank you.
Dana

today that is what I want... "let your kingdom come, let your Will be done on earth as it is in heaven." somedays when i see so much injustice, that is all that i can even pray. it becomes like a jesus prayer that is repeated again and again and again because there are no other words to voice the longing. one cannot even think what to pray--so we allow the Spirit/Will to groan within.

B"H

Hi Scot,

I was wondering if the comment, Thus, “Constantine is not the villain; we are” (103) is possibly a mild rebuke of Yoder's position?

Shlomo

Kyle #10, thank you for that exposition on Edwards. It was very helpful to me.

Two thoughts come to mind, no three. The first is that I can hardly wait to read this chapter tonight after a church group meets at our house. Hopefully this won't lead me to shoo them out so I can hunker down with this book ;-)

Second, “Constantine is not the villain; we are”. This reminds me of a powerful experience I had while reading Tozer's "Pursuit of Man". Tozer on the *self sins* was an epiphany for me, to realize that all of my sin was really about *self*. Whenever *self* creeps in, regardless of the disguise, sin is its ever-present dark shadow.

Third, a personal quest. Being raised in the Eastern Christian church, I continually yearn to better understand the theology behind the Eastern approach to the Trinity and the Spirit. I know that this was very powerful for me in my early years, and continues experientially to this day, but I don't know how to begin to wrap words around that experience. I do know it has nothing to do with the usual experience of the Spirit that is discussed/experienced in Protestant churches today - at least those in my limited circle - that largely seems limited to the Nicky Gumbel-Alpha approach to speaking in tongues etc. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just that my story has been a very different one, but I can't describe it very well. Arghhh. Whenever I can plow through a few sentences of Gregory of Nyssa, I encounter *A-ha* moments. But being one of the amateurs who are so graciously indulged on this site, my understanding of dear old Gregory is somewhat limited. So far the book by Rupnik came the closest, and I think that Work's may be headed that direction as well. I look forward to tonight!

sounds like this might be a great book to read...I'll pick it up. I have been observing the plight of immigrants in this country without documents.

A family in our town was invaded by the ICE and the mother, with child clinging to her was torn away and taken into custody for merely not having documents. (a civil offense) A family in our church also lost their daughter and grandson to Mexico when her husband (who came when he was 2) was taken into custody by the ICE and deported. (several in our church witnessed the dehumanizing cruelty of the judge who heard the case) Their lives have been turned upside down and their families have been torn apart.

Since 911, the tension has risen and I wonder what it will visibly look like to deport 12 million people. And what will be the effect on families left behind? (not to mention our relationship with Mexico) Prior to 911 there was a tacit welcome for any who needed work. Then children were born, families, settled and over the years lives were built. The immigration system we have in place was designed for another era and is not functioning with justice in mind. Yet legislation offered is being driven by fear and self interest not justice.

I am looking for biblical answers because in the post 911 fear, I see something happening in the hearts of people who say they are Christians that is unkind and unjust and ill-informed by fear of the other.

I am concerned that we don't have a solid biblical paradigm to deal ethically with this current national delimma. The bible says so much about welcoming strangers as if they were our own people... Christ himself was a refugee, many undocumented people are believers and have shared the eucharist and same waters of baptism, as christians how can we reconcile all of those texts with the current ICE behavior and our national climate toward undocumented immigrants.

There is a serious need to comprehensively examine this issue from a biblical and theological lense. It is bigger than what we see on the surface. It is bigger than making and breaking laws...there is something going on in the heart that troubles me deeply.

#20 and 21. Suggest that you try to get this book, if only to read this chapter - Work's analysis of Jeffersonian, Jacksonian, Wilsonian, and Hamiltonian brands of Americanism and their parallels in the American Christian church(es) touch on your points in ways that seem far too complex to try to elucidate here, at least for me. Maybe someone else could take that on??? I only want to say that in Jacksonian Christianity, the tribe takes precedence over Christ. I see this happening in how we treat the stranger among us, hunkering down and raising the boundaries around our tribe.

And there was special pleasure for me, in the discussion on Trinitarian theology, to see a footnote for the beloved Gregory of Nyssa. Scot, if you're ever pondering something from the more classic realm to discuss here, I for one would certainly benefit from anything by or about St. Gregory.