A Big Change at Jesus Creed

Bummer.

:(

Sounds great, Scot. I'm looking forward to it, and I totally dig the new banner. :)

I have eavesdropped on some interesting conversations at beliefnet. I have found this blog to really expand in terms of encouraging civil discourse of wide-ranging theological ideas in the 2 years or so I've been coming here. It seemed to start out as a place for moderate reform types but the audience has expanded to include a much wider range of Christianity and the topics seem to have expanded too. But belief.net attracts a REALLY broad audience and it may be a challenge to keep the same reasoned and civil level of discourse as we have consistently seen here. It will be interesting and I am looking forward to it.

Scot,

While I emphatise with your need for administrative and technical help with your blog, I feel that moving to Beliefnet.com will remove the distinctive flavor of this blog which is yours and yours alone. It will never be the same as part of a large website.

Hey Scot,
Good on ya! Expanding the conversation is always a good thing!

Sorry, I meant "Scot", of course...

The RSS feed will surely change to one of the beliefnet feeds. My biggest fear is that the content and community of the conversation will change. I fear the trolls that are rampant at beliefnet in the user comments. Simply having "orthodox faith" in the header will surely bring trolls. That's okay though, Scot and most of us truly do represent orthodox faith (and some represent Orthodoxy), so hopefully we will be a light to the trolls!

Kyle,

We will be moderating comments; we do that all the time now and some comments don't make it to the screen. I will keep the privilege of moderating comments.

I'm very conflicted. I've come to value the content and dialog here on Jesus creed. But I've also very wary about the commercialization of Christianity. Our faith has in may places become simply another business which can easily become controlled by people who don't even share our faith. Christian music, and christian book stores are excellent examples. I suppose blogs are next.

I don't know anything about beliefnet, so I'm not making an accusation about them. But just suppose that they sell their business to others who in an effort to drive more business start making demands about the content or the amount of advertising etc.

I have to be honest here; this worries me.

I have reached a point where I read very few theology oriented blogs, not because there is not good information available, but because of very 'un-jesus-like' character of the comments. It seems like there is no room anymore for well-intentioned discourse or sincere disagreement.

There were two blogs I liked very much (both hosted by beliefnet), but decided it would be best for me to quit reading because I would get frustrated by the uncharitable comments. In fact, Jesus Creed is one of the very few I read anymore just because of the level of civility in the discussion here.

I understand the reasons for doing so, and hope for the best, but still, it worries me.

I support your decision, even though I am sad to hear this.

A couple thoughts -
1) Techies will be familiar with Slashdot and Kur5hin. I was involved with Slashdot in the early/mid 90's, before most people knew what "blogging" was.

2) People who have maintained successful blogs have always stated that it is surprising the amount of work that goes into it. I believe them. I can't even regularly post random thoughts in an orderly fashion for myself on my own blog, which is mostly me murmuring into the wind anyway. I am so, so grateful for the work that Scot puts into this blog. I benefit so much from it.

4) Here's the warning: More often than not, big blogs are pillaged and destroyed by trolls. Trolls ruin it for everyone. They change the nature of the discussion and drive away any transparant, honest discussion. Greater visibility will attract more interest from them. Hopefully beliefnet also has tools that will help make this job easier. It isn't like none have ever visited here. This blog already has quite a bit of exposure, and Scot has helped shepherd the community quite well to date.

Hopefully, it will be far more positive than negative. Again, a hearty thank you to Scot (and the community) for all your work. Here's to the ongoing conversation!

What Hugh (#22) said.

Still, there is Isaiah 54:2, "...lengthen your cords; strengthen your stakes" to think about.

There is also Isaiah 54:17, "No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, says the LORD."

Don't go getting all exegetical and hermeneutical on me, Scot, I know this chapter was written under different circumstances to a different group of Eikons at a different time and a different place and probably has no possible application to you, here and now, today. :)

I do hope you reserve the right to extricate yourself from beliefnet.com if it turns out not to be your cup of tea, er, coffee after all.

Blessings. Whither thou goest, I will go.

Good move, Scot. You had me at "saves [you] time" and "more public forum." I know the latter poses challenges as well as opportunities, but how can this be a missional blog if we're not willing to take that risk? I'm glad you're putting this blog on a stand.

Scot, I absolutely support you in this and will follow you to beliefnet. This blog is a great source of spiritual benefit and blessing to me. But I share the concerns of the others here. Will the blog retain its "broad," yet "evangelical" flavor? Will truly civil dialogue ensue?

I guess we shall see.

interesting.

I echo others in the fear that this will fall prey to the same issues other Beliefnet blogs have - great content, but the comments are so full of trolls that no conversation is possible. It's hard to balance diversity even with moderation, I'm interested to see what the effect will be on this blog.

Scot,

I am a long time reader of Jesus Creed and I think
that this is great. Getting your thoughts, reviews,
and the like out to many more people is a real plus.
I read this blog each day. You've been a blessing to
my life and ministry!

Clay

Andie, (#29)

"I have yet to find another one where the love of Christ is as evident as it is among our fellowship on this blog."

The one other blog that I would compare to it is:

http://fatherstephen.wordpress.com

Scot... I'm with you and think ultimately it will be a good thing (based on all that you outlined). I (and many) are thankful for your ministry through this blog. Thanks!

Ben

I'll certainly keep following it. I'm going to be interested to see if the character of the discussion changes. I love the mixture right now within the conversation, allowing me as a pastor to get into academic discussions about these topics with people who generally push me. I appreciate the desire to bring both the considerate character of this blog and the insights shared hear to a wider audience. I sincerely hope this blog can continue to be a light to othes and a treat for those of us who love such deep theological conversations.
Thanks for your continued hard work!

The only thing I would point out is that threads are much more difficult to follow on beliefnet blogs. Comments can easily escalate into many HUNDREDS on any one thread. I suppose adding more people to the conversation is a good thing but keep in mind you will be adding ALOT MORE!! Blessings...

Follow up question...showing my blogospheric ignorance...can someone define the "troll" concept for me? I frequent a ton of blogs in various parts of the theological spectrum but I have never encountered that?

I think its a bummer for 3 reasons...

1. I just cant see how a site like Beliefnet is going to be less work - its going to be more. I think you're going to have waaay more moderation to do.

2. One of the cool things I like about Jesus Creed at present is that we talk about big ideas, sometimes even using big words. If you are attracting a more mainstream audience, I think you'll get a lot more pleas of "can we please use smaller words"

3. The ads make it difficult. When an ad is on the page, part of my brain is trying to block it out, while also trying to attend to the material on the page. I dont know if this is true for anyone else, but reading in that kind of environment is much less enjoyable.

While I share the concerns of others about having to update my RSS feed (which almost certainly won't be covered on your end by making sure the URL is forwarded), and of the trolling becoming too much to handle, I look forward to seeing this new development and how it all works out.

I think the right word is "congratulations!" :)

Just so they don't censure you. Oh, there I go with my conspiracy theory personality. I hear your reasons. No problem for this reader. I like the expression of others who also indicate that we are as much responsible for the tone of the community here at the Creed.

I'm disappointed. My concern is that the overall high level of discourse and unusual civility will be compromised. I understand the reasons it is easier to move to Beliefnet, and I'll keep checking in regularly as long as the blog remains basically the same in terms of comment quality and civil tone. But if/when that changes, I'll sadly decide to come by less frequently.

Fantastic decision, the message needs to be shared in a much bigger community and beliefnet.com is the best.

Scot,

I read all of your blog posts through my RSS reader. I only venture onto your site if I want to leave a comment. The primary difference between your feed and the feeds I've seen on Beliefnet is that you offer the full feed (thus allowing me to read your blog from within my reader) and Beliefnet requires you to visit their site in order to read the entire blog.

Is there any chance that your blog will continue to offer the full post content in the RSS feed instead of just the standard Beliefnet teaser?

Or does anyone know how view the full post content when a site only offers a teaser?

John has a good point.

Because I travel a fair bit I often read the full content, comments and posts, off-line, downloaded when I have a connection.

I can even get the full post using Atom Feed on a mobile device.

Anyone who ever read "Three Billy Goats Gruff" should know what a troll is. A troll lives under a bridge and tries to impede the progress of anyone or anything that wants to cross the bridge. A lurker (someone who reads but doesn't comment) is not a troll. More trolls (people who make lewd, crude, and intentionally rude comments on blogs just because they can) ought to think seriously about becoming lurkers.

On a side note), and speaking of bridges, people in Michigan (John Frye, are you listening?) often are divided into Youpers and Trolls. The Youpers (U.P.'ers) live on the Upper Peninsula. The Trolls live "under the bridge" -- the bridge being the one that spans the Straits of Macinac that divides the Upper and Lower Peninsulas of Michigan. But not always, apparently. Last Sunday afternoon I met a woman from Michigan, and when I asked, "Are you a Youper or a Troll?" she had no idea what I was talking about.

The best thing to do when a troll comments inappropriately on a blog or bulletin board is just ignore it. Answering trolls only encourages them. Feed them a pork chop and they'll go away.

I am not a troll, even though this comment is somewhat off-topic.

I've always thought of "troll" in this context not as the mythological ugly creature, but as someone who "trolls" for arguments the way a fisherman "trolls" for fish. The fisherman throws a lure behind the boat and plows through the school hoping something will bite. Same with a forum troll -- they throw out their pet bombs hoping someone will jump into the argument.

Another comment, if I may Scot: I wonder if anyone else feels a little dissed as a community member by this? Imagine a pastor saying to the congregation, without any prior discussion, "I'm moving this church from the suburbs to the city; hope you can join us." Ok, this community isn't anything like a church, and a blog publisher has the right to do what he likes with his content, but still... isn't the whole Jesus Creed idea about building community?

dopderbeck,

That's a tough one to take, brother. Yes, I did think of this over and over but didn't want it to become a public discussion as if it were a "vote" of some sort. So, I chatted with some, weighed the options...

and, by the way, I'm hoping you'll join us at Beliefnet.com.

"Ignore them and they go away" just doesn't work - not if you have a community dedicated to honest and open conversation. In my opinion, if trolls are not moderated out by a person or people in control of the board, they will take over and ruin the conversation. The conversation becomes all about gamesmanship, not about honest wrestling with various viewpoints. I base this claim on being involved in various forums for over ten years. I have seen some boards successfully stay on-mission while others are shipwrecked.

The good news is that Scot already actively maintains this board. He is going to be accused repeatedly of being intolerant and authoritarian. He probably already gets those accusations as it is. Get into a shouting match with trolls, you lose every time. My opinion is you have to block them. If they can't start arguments and get people riled up, they will go someplace else.

If comments could have a big troll icon on them when someone is just messing around or is just out to debate for the sake of debating, then everyone could ignore them. But trolls masquerade as real people. And when one leaves, another takes its place. They are bent on mischief and without "adult supervision" they tear the place up. Again, the good news is that Scot has already been dealing with this. The best case scenario is that it is just more of the same, except with improved tools for him to use.

And, better case scenario is that still more people are welcomed into the community to the benefit of everyone.

Ohhhh yeah, November 1st. It helps to read the whole thing. What do you know...

It's hard to find a balanced, civilised approach like this site/community. How could I stop now?

"zap body fat and boost libido fast" ad on beliefnet. I am conflicted. Do you get to moderate the ads?

Scot, I trust your judgment to make good decisions; you've done so so far. I'll be here or there, wherever you are.

Dana

Since we're going with mythology, the problem with the trolls on the internet is that they have this magical ability to change form. I hope there is some way to counteract the dark magic.

I am looking for some idea and stumble upon your posting :) decide to wish you Thanks. Eugene

I agree that the ads on BeliefNet are dorky, but I just want to say:
Remember all the stories in the Bible of God's children ending up in "alien" situations? Abraham & Sarah in Canaan, Moses in Egypt, Joseph in Egypt, Daniel and his 3 friends in Babylon, Esther in Persia, the Church in a Roman-occupied world...
I am confident that this blog can retain its God-bathed identity and head out. It might not be comfortable, but it might be a God thing.

Bob (#60),

To correct the spelling, those of us above da bridge are Yoopers. Glad to see you are aware of the larger semantic range of "troll." You betcha.

Scot--will look forward to seeing your new blog. Sounds like a very good opportunity as this blog continues to grow.

Someone earlier up the chain said it best... This is your blog, and we are your guests. I'm sure if the site brings in new guests who get too rowdy and stay for too long, you'll have the wisdom to know what to do.

I am amazed at the time you must already spend writing, monitoring, and maintaining it. I'm not upset by the change because I trust your motives for moving it. I'm sure you feel far more attached to it than we ever could, so if you think it's a good thing, I'll follow. If you decide it's not a good thing, I'll follow you back here. :)

Scot,
I appreciate the huge effort you put into this blog - and truly hope that the move to Beliefnet.com will alleviate some of that pressure. That being said, I echo concerns about the comment spam and flame wars that seem to break out regularly there.

Regardless, I'll keep reading.

Good move Scot. I'm looking forward for the new discussion topics as this move will open the window wider for dialogue with Muslims, Catholics, Orthodox, and the whole gamut of world religions.

I love beliefnet. BUT... you may seriously need to bring someone else into to patrol the comments. They can be really, really brutal and many people have left blogs they actually loved because they cannot deal with the comments. Which is bad. One piece of advice, if I may: be a dictator about comments. Don't assume that the freedom of an open conversation trumps maintaining the tone you'd like to keep. Just as an example, I used to be a regular reader/commenter on the Crunchy Cons blog there, but left because I got tired of comments which were made with the appearance of civility and even claims to science, but which had at their core racist ideology. Since they didn't come right out and use derogatory words or blatant "black people are evil" phrasing, the blogger felt he needed to leave them up. Really, I think the whole blog would have been better off if he had been willing to say, "this does not contribute anything useful to the sort of conversation we're about so I'm taking it down for that reason alone." Freedom of speech means you cannot be prevented from saying anything you want. It does not mean you are entitled to have your words posted where ever you want them to be. It's your blog - be the dictator!

Like I said, I do love beliefnet and they do a great job of bringing good conversations to a wider audience. But I too hope you have retained the right to pull out if it doesn't work out.

Awesome Scot. Beliefnet is good people; Patton Dodd is awesome. I look forward to the expanded opportunities!

I echo a little bit what Rebecca says about not being afraid to use a heavier hand to moderate, and maybe even calling in reinforcements, but I think as a community we can help as well. First I think we all need to take a deep breath when we see comments that offend us and to bite our tongue a bit rather than come in like the Cavalry. I've been guilty of not thinking of the consequences before hitting Submit as much as anybody and I will try harder. We tend to know something about each other here and we have a history so I think we tend to make allowances most of the time. I almost always disagree with some regular posters here (as I am sure they almost always disagree with me) but as time has worn on I find that I am less likely to see red when they post something I strongly disagree with, and more likely to try and understand where they are coming from. Sometimes I pass on the urge to get involved with the discussion because I know I just can't do so without offending or being offended (as in the discussion on abortion). We will need to be ever mindful that the world is watching and that we need to model empathy, compassion and patience. It will be a good opportunity to practise our Jesus Creed skills.

...like I was mentionin' a couple of days ago, I recon we just need to introduce Beliefnet.com folks to the One T Saloon real up-front-like ... and be sure to have lots of deputies stoppin' by to remind folks of the Rule of the Jesus Creeders, eh? 8)

...couldn't resist the 100th comment....

I'm late in learning of the change. First, thank you Scot for the 3 years that I've been a lucker and sometime participant. I never could figure out how you had the time to moderate. If what some say is true, moderation may be even more difficult at beliefnet.com? I've been here about three years I think. Here's what I appreciate-
1. the emphasis on the Jesus creed itself.
2. the civility
3. the level of discourse and expertise
4. the fascinating and educational discussions which many feel so strongly about, but are pretty much unrelated to my own spiritual journey and simple-minded faith. Sadly, I fear they're often a detour from the Jesus creed.
From what others have written, perhaps I'll be joined by other religious liberals and go from being perhaps the most liberal here to being one of the more conservative, as I am at the UU church.
See you all at beliefnet.com tomorrow.
Doug