“Trinity recently hosted a debate on the eternal subordination of the Son, which (in the eyes of this writer) seems to be driven by whether or not women are to submit to men.”
I think your claim may be a secondary issue, but it clearly doesn’t “drive” the debate, and has a long history of debate in the church without any mention of complementarianism or egalitarianism.
Did you watch the debate? If your suggestion is truly the issue at hand, then egalitarians (myself included) don’t have much of a case, because Ware and Grudem easily won. I think much of that was due to their debating skills though, and the fact that McCall and Yandell primarily relied on philosophical arguments and poorly attempted to sluff off the scriptural arguments of Ware and Grudem (ala McCall’s terrible argument about “we can quote verses all day and not get anywhere”).

I am Episcopalian, I grieve over the present crisis. Please pray for us.

Ooops – the linked article says 29% of young evangelicals plan to vote for Obama, in contrast to the 59% of all young people who support him.

Kyle,
Are you suggesting this debate about the eternal subordinaton of the Son (in general, not just at TEDS) had something to do with theoretical discussion of the Trinity and that it was not prompted in the first place by the role of women and men?

Good stuff as always. Wasted Profitably occupied the last hour for me.
The Michigan Band is the highlight of the afternoon in AA these days.
Nice header with the “wordle” – although the subtitle on the current one is better. Unless of course the intent is more expert download less conversation.

Scot,
I don’t know much about this – but isn’t the debate on the nature of Trinity of much longer standing the current gender role discussion?
Although it is clear that the debate has more consequence because it is not merely “academic” any longer. The urgency is in the application. And the application is justification of eternal male superiority and eternal female subordination by analogy. A topic that makes me sick.

I was talking about this particular debate at TEDS. But I see my egalitarianism to be something totally separate from subordination within the Trinity. As RJS suggested, that is a discussion that goes back many, many, many centuries and I think there are plenty of scholars who are able to separate the two issues. The fear would be the application of the doctrine to support complementarianism or worse.

Yes, of course, the discussion goes way back but the issue was the eternal generation of the Son. What prompts this discussion by Grudem and Ware is not theoretical discussion and academic scholarship on Trinity but on the ontological grounding of women subordination in the Trinity.

Scot, you are spot on. I have done a lot of reading on the issue of the role of women in the church. The complementarians are intent on the eternal subordination of women to men and they need *their* vision of the Trinity to ground their arguments. They are losing the battle with the few biblical (Pauline) texts at their disposal. Thanks for making us aware of the TEDS debate.

Scot,
Did I misread the Christianity Today article? It looks like 29% of young evangelicals support Obama, not 60%. I think that was 60% of young adults in general.

Scot, you sound surprised that 9 out of 10 babies who are found to have Down’s Syndrome via prenatal testing are aborted. You needn’t be. Dr. John Patrick (www.johnpatrick.ca) and many others been predicting this for a long, long time. Your students would do well to be exposed to him.
There are lots of public issues with a lot of nuance and shading. But this is not one of them. It is a classic case of the “perfect [sociopolitical] storm.” It is the nexus of the Roe-v-Wade culture of death-for-convenience’s-sake, our modernist, materialist scientific culture that says “if we can do it, we ought to do it,” a social fabric defined in terms of technology, individual liberty, and leisure rather than mutual responsibility and service. We are finally reaping where we have sown for 50 years or more. We have been the proverbial frog in the teakettle, not caring a whit when someone ratcheted the knob up one click. And now, here we are.
But we had been warned by prophets who had no honor in their own country, even humanists like Neil Postman.
BTW, we can be pretty certain that a President Obama (heaven forfend!) will try to move us down this path even further using all of his prodigious skills. His pro-abortion record is second to none. Imagine, for example, the 9th Circus Court of Appeals being his template for remaking the judiciary!
qb

Z, yes, I got that wrong and just corrected it.

Scot-
You can expect the 4th loss for the Bears this Sunday from my Vikings
Tyler

One of the first links in this post led to a CT article with a graph introduced in this way:
The survey also found an interesting comparison between what issues evangelicals find important in the 2008 election and what evangelicals are hearing about in church.
Silly old me … what I hear about in church is Christ. I guess we’re pretty old fashioned.

“If everyone who confesses and recites the BCP would believe what they confess and recite, this wouldn?t have to happen nor would this.”
For those of us who aren’t Episcopalian or otherwise aren’t familiar with the Book of Common Prayer (I at least know that’s what BCP is), could you spell out what in the BCP would prevent the division in the Episcopal Church, if only the people who “confess and recite” it “believed” it?

We call the extermination of Down Syndrome babies “geneticide” because it is an excuse to kill off a whole population of humans (genocide) based on genetics alone. Ob-gyn’s who offer abortion after possibly finding out a fetus has an extra chromosome call the abortion “therapy.” This is a disgrace to the medical community and the official pro-abortion stance of the Democratic party is their biggest shame.

It’s one thing to mention the disgraceful statistic on abortion of Downs Syndrome babies, but bringing the Democratic Party into this was out of line.

B-W (17): As the father of a child with Down Syndrome, your response is truly offensive. In Wisconsin, the Democrats are currently broadcasting ads about how they protect the “woman’s right to choose.” If you have a problem with that, take it up with those who “approve this ad.”

Nice header!

Thanks Wes.

Amen, Mike.

Mike in #18,
I’m sorry you are offended, and sympathize with your situation. The 90% abortion statistic is horrible, but to start ranting against Democrats as if they were the cause of the problem is unnecessarily divisive, offensive for those of us who consider ourselves Democrats even while disagreeing with them on abortion, and I’m bothered in the extreme that no one else is standing up in my defense for calling the comment in #16 out of bounds.