Daily Prayers:
- A. Book of Common Prayer
- A. Book of Common Prayer 2
- A. Divine Hours
- A. Evening Prayer (Anglican)
- A. Morning Prayer (Anglican)
- Celtic Prayer
- Creeds of Christendom
- Eastern Orthodox Prayers
- Lectionary
- Liturgy of the Hours
- Missio Dei
Emerging Movement:
- Andrew Jones
- Andrew Perriman
- Anthony Stiff
- Art Boulet
- Bob Robinson
- Br. Maynard
- Dan Kimball
- David Fitch
- Dogwood Abbey
- Ecclesia Network
- Emerging Women
- Eugene Cho
- Henrik Holmgaard
- Jamie Arpin-Ricci
- Jazz Theologian
- John Frye
- John Lagrou
- Jonny Baker
- JR Briggs
- Leonard Hjamarlson
- LeRon Shults
- Lukas McKnight
- Peggy Brown
- Sivin Kit
- Stephen Shields
- Steve McCoy
- Steve Taylor
- Tamara Buchan
- The Practicing Church
- Tim Miekley
- Todd Hiestand
- Tom Smith (RSA)
- Tony Jones
Other sites I frequent:
- Allan Bevere
- Andy Rowell
- Attie Nel
- Barna
- Brad Boydston
- Chris Ridgeway
- CC Blogs
- Don Johnson
- Ed Gilbreath
- Erika Haub (Carney)
- Faith Blogging
- Falsani
- Fr. Rob
- Hummers
- iMonk
- James McGrath
- Jim Martin
- John Stackhouse
- JR Woodward
- Karen Spears Zacharias
- Laura Barringer
- LaVonne Neff
- LeaderFOCUS
- LL Barkat
- Luke/Annika
- Mark Galli
- Mark Roberts
- Michael Kruse
- Nexus
- Owen Youngman
- Ted Gossard
- Tom Wright
Recommended Online Readings:
Scholarly Books I’ve written:
- Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels
- Hist Jesus Anthology
- Interpreting the Synoptic Gospels
- Introducing NT Interpretation
- Jesus and His Death
- Jesus in Memory (ed.)
- New Vision for Israel
- Synoptics: Biblio
- The Face of New Testament Studies
- Who Do They Say I Am?
Scholarship Online:
- Apollos
- Books & Culture
- ChristianityToday
- CS Lewis
- EAC
- Early Xian Writings
- Euaggelion
- Gospels
- Jesus and His Death Blog
- Karl Barth Online
- Mark Goodacre’s Weblog
- Online Journals Access
- Online Pseudepigraph
- Pete Enns
- Prime Time Jesus
- Theopedia
- ThinkTank
Stuff online:
- 5 Streams
- Big Muddy
- Catalyst Scripture
- Catching the Wave
- DaVinci Code
- Forgiveness
- Future or Fad?
- Gospel of Judas
- High Calling
- Interview on Emerging
- Interview with LL Barkat
- IVCF Eikons
- IVCF Gospel
- John Bunyan
- Keys of the Kingdom
- Lake Emerging
- Mary in CT
- Missional in Seattle
- Missional Matrix
- Nativity Story
- Never Alone
- New Perspective
- Pepperdine Interview
- Professor as Scholar
- Recl Mind Mary 1
- Robust Gospel
- Social Justice
- Trojan Horse 2
- WiredParish Mary Interview
- Word/World NPP














posted November 10, 2008 at 1:10 am
Excellent letter, and thoughts.
This is a tough one. Each marriage carries a history with it. So on that end of things, people will differ on what they want to do if their spouse is unfaithful. Add to that, probably different personalities, and other factors.
But I think this is an excellent example of someone taking the thought in your book, Scot, Blue Parakeet, and applying it to divorce. God at a certain point does seem to give his people, or at least some of them in the OT, a divorce. Divorce does seem to happen, as well, unless I’m recalling Scripture wrongly. But the story of love, and a love which calls back an unfaithful bride, continues as well in the OT. It certainly makes one think about one’s attitude, should they be unwilling to take back a seemingly repentant spouse who has had an affair. Yet again, grace as well as truth, and much prayer is needed, as none of us can really see into the marriage or the couples’ heart.
posted November 10, 2008 at 1:46 am
It is Biblical to forgive.
It is also Biblical for people to face the consequences of their wrong-doing.
In some cases, that may mean the pain of healing a broken relationship. In others, it may mean the death of the relationship.
Among Christians, the question does not stop there. Once divorced, what do we advise them about future relationships?
I often feel the conservative evangelical community handles the whole divorce issue wrong. Divorce is not the problem — it is the end result of several different possible problems.
Perhaps in discussing those problems we prepare ourselves for counseling couples in a helpful way.
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:23 am
Here are the words of Jesus, from the Sermon on the Mount:
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” (Matthew chp 5, verses 27-32)
So there, in red letters even, are reasons that make divorce possible, but not necessarily imperative. But there doesn’t seem to be any reason that makes remarriage permissible while the ex-spouse is living. Quite the contrary. We need to read our Bibles more carefully.
Be careful, little eyes, what you see. Be careful, little hands, what you do. Be careful, little feet, where you go.
I think Scripture always trumps cultural norms.
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:24 am
Oops again. Your name is me.
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:46 am
For Bob:
It’s pretty lame to answer a serious question with ‘be careful little hands…’ It’s time to ‘grow up’ and deal with the issue instead of trivilzing such an important issue.
posted November 10, 2008 at 8:29 am
Having had friends divorce (a board chair) it is sad to see two Christians unwilling to deal with their short comings to reconcile. I have heard it said that “we are in the reconciliation business”. It is just so hard to watch people slowly destroy their marriage over mutual hurts that don’t get brought to the surface. In this instance it wasn’t simply a case of one persons fault, but both unwilling to work at it any longer.
posted November 10, 2008 at 9:04 am
I think that marriage is sacred and that there is a biblical vision for a sacred union. I also think it is possible to use verses which seem to prohibit divorce to justify all manner of abuse and marital dysfunction. I think there is a tension in scripture around marriage and divorce. Also just because a couple is married does not mean they have met the biblical vision for marriage (oneness and union in Christ). Couples can be married, not connected and just dwelling together but there is little godly love between them. I don’t think this is a marriage as intended by scripture.
I would counsel couple to seek therapy and give it all they have to develop a stronger relationship. I think marriage issues are symptomatic of “stuff” each person has not dealt with personally. The potential for spiritual growth as couples work through their issues is great. I also believe that if one person gets help, they can change the dynamics of their marriage with better success and outcomes.
Last resort is divorce… and i think God really does hate it, but allows it when there is serious hardness of heart. He hates how hurtful it is, how much pain is involved and how many children are affected.
posted November 10, 2008 at 9:36 am
Is it possible that the sins of remaining together are worse than the sin of divorce? Yes, God hates divorce. But which other sins does God not hate?
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:02 am
Paul, Joanne right on.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:10 am
I think divorce is acceptable (not required) for reasons of adultery, abandonment, and abuse. Only the first two are scriptural in the sense that they’re in the Bible, though I’d argue that if you are beating your wife, you are not being faithful to her. The imperative to forgive remains, but not to trust again.
What we’ve so far not addressed, however, is the institution of marriage (and divorce) in Jesus’ time. As I understand it, only men could initiate a divorce. A man could divorce his wife for any reason. A woman had no say in the matter. And since women were economically dependent on men, she would be forced to remarry, thus committing adultery.
That’s not exactly what we have today. I’m not saying we should take the attitude that “life is hard, and sometimes these things happen, it’s nobody’s fault”. But if someone’s spouse leaves them, if their “irreconcilable differences” are that one wants to stay married and the other does not, should we hold the person who was left accountable for being divorced through no fault of their own? Similarly (and in relation to this question), if someone’s spouse cheats on them and they feel their trust is irrevocably shattered, that they are no longer one flesh because a third party has been introduced, and that there’s no way to go forward, do we tell them not to get divorced (in spite of Jesus’ allowance of it) because of Hosea? Yes, it’d be great if a marriage can survive this. A huge testimony to grace and forgiveness. And many marriages do. But I cannot fault the person who says, “Through this act, our marriage was destroyed.”
More specifically to this question, I’d want to know whether the person is coming to the pastor because he really wants to get divorced but is making sure it’s okay biblically, or really doesn’t want to get divorced (despite feeling like there’s no way forward) and is looking for a reason to stay. I think the answer to both questions (Can I leave? Could I stay?) is yes.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:22 am
@ Ron
I think there may have been a more constructive way to communicate your criticism. What you said doesn’t encourage further dialogue. That said I don’t the idea behind what Bob said is lame at all. Infidelity generally doesn’t start with one big destructive decision, but a series of small, seemingly innocuous decisions that take us away. In 2 Samuel, David’s downfall begins with the simple decision not to travel with the army in the spring as was custom. He should have listened to a simple reminder to be careful feet where went or didn’t go.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:31 am
Jesus said Moses allowed divorce “because your hearts were hard;” I suspect that applies to the exception Jesus gave us as well.
It would be hard to forgive, hard to trust again, and that’s why Jesus gave us that way out, but I don’t think it’s the way He wants it. If the other is willing to work it out, I think He would want us to try to do the same.
Could I do it? I don’t know. I hope I never have to find out.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:42 am
Dan,
Let me jump in here as the umpire. When I read Bob’s original comment (and Ron’s response with the word “lame”), I thought: “That’s Bob.” This has been a long conversation between folks who get to know one another and Bob often says things like this. Yes, the word “lame” is a little strong but I would say the words were “flippant” if I had not listened to Bob. And I think Bob can take it when folks push back at him like this.
In Blue Parakeet I try to provide the Story into which we understand issues like divorce: that is, now to flesh that one out a bit, how Jesus said what he did — building as he did on Deut 24 — in his day in response to the laxity of Hillel and the strictness of Shammai. But, it’s not so easy to say Jesus gave all the exceptions needed. Paul added one in 1 Cor 7.
Furthermore, we have to interpret teachings about divorce in the time of Jesus and Paul (by the way Mark 10 shows women could initiate proceedings) and one thing we have is divorce contracts (called a get) and women were free to remarry in that day.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:46 am
Scripture has good, tho often difficult, guidance for all people. But for the disciple of Jesus, they are not to be diembodied and depersonalized principles, truths or commands. They are to be understood and obeyed within the context of following him as my teacher and Lord in everything. If this is not a Christians understanding of their life and how they are to live it – especially in such difficult situations, then we will look for rules to follow (or not) based on personal preference or agenda.
We need the Word, the Spirit and the Community to help us to discern the question, “How is Love calling me to respond”? Each story is similar and unique. We want a “one size fits all” response that often will be approached as a private, individual decision. We need various kinds of help, both with the decision and how we will live it out over time.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:58 am
I love that this pastor embraces the possibility of reading the Bible as a story, not as bits and pieces that can be arranged depending on the ?need?. To take what Jesus says on the topic of divorce out of its immediate context (the book), let alone the big picture of the Bible story is a situational hermeneutic fueled by emotions (as strong and as real and valid as they are).
It?s interesting to note that when Jesus was asked about this issue (Matthew 19) what He is pointing to is the creation design and cements it with ?Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.? This is the big picture. Then he goes into their tribe arrangement by mentioning Moses, not God (v. 8). This is the smaller story and within this arrangement Jesus pin points some things for them. Even within this limited context, what does ?marital unfaithfulness? means? Is it sexual relations outside marriage, is it flirting (in Matthew 5:27 Jesus expands the definition of adultery), is it, as someone pointed out here in comments, being married but living like divorced people, not really committed, not faithful to each other? This again is Jesus way of broadening things instead of narrowing them down.
Yes, the pastor got it right to see that the bigger picture is that of faithfulness in spite of unfaithfulness. The strong, clear and beautiful story of the Bible is that of a God fueled by unconditional love in a relentless pursuit of his prodigal creation. There is NOTHING we can do to change His faithfulness toward us. [Let?s not forget that what puts people in hell is not God, but their own refusal of God?s love for them.] Inevitably we are called to imitate that in all our relationships. We are to forgive endlessly (?seventy time seven?). Paul calls us to mirror Christ?s love for us in our marriages. He even takes it to the extreme of saying even if you are married to an unbeliever (who doesn?t even care about God), you still MUST stay in that relationship. Divorce will happen if the OTHER party initiates it, not you.
The point is if we are to mirror God in our marriages then there is only one option: endless faithfulness, endless forgiveness and endless love. Divorce, breaking of ones relationship is always the other party?s option, not ours. We will never stop loving, just as God never stops loving us. We embrace the other?s sinfulness in an attitude of humility knowing way too well our own and together we allow for God?s love to bath us and transform us.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:39 am
Kudos to this pastor and to the many wonderful posts here! It’s so good to see the church really interacting with scriptures rather than applying slice and dice hermetics to find the “rules”.
My marriage is now OK, but as I like to tell people, after the wedding, we very quickly got worse, sickness and poverty. It took a very long time for better, health and richer to make an appearance. The think which I figured out pretty early on was the marriage is like a graduate course in being a human being. You can get by in the rest of life just being nice, not causing too many problems, not holding problematic grudges, etc. However, in marriage, especially a difficult one, you are pressed to take up the task of being shaped into the likeness of our Creator like never before. If you cannot get yourself to learn to be selfless when the other person doesn’t deserve it, forgiving when the other person does unforgivable things, kind when the other person is abrasive, slow to take offense even when great offense is intended, etc, etc, etc. The reason my marriage survived was really because we each decided to become good enough to make it last – even when it didn’t really deserve to last. Which is not to say that this man in question couldn’t or shouldn’t divorce his wife. Making the marriage work may be impossible. However, I do think the real question is what sort of man does the husband want to be? How far does he want to follow Jesus down the rabbit hole, so to speak. God has provided an “out”, but I think this is one of those moments like in the Matrix where Nero must chose to take the blue or the red pill. Take the one and move on with your life. Take the other and find out what God really has going on.
And I’d say that this pastor is pretty much right on in his understanding of scripture on the matter. One day I was praying and complaining to God about my husband (completely legitimate complaints, btw) and I foolishly asked God, “do you have to deal with this sort of stuff?” I’m pretty sure I heard God laugh.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:57 am
Thank you, Scot, for your approach to this fragile topic. And thanks to the pastor for his letter. The conversation has been helpful, so far, and I hope continues to be. So, let me throw my two cents in the pot….
I think this topic hinges on how we deal with sin in general. When we make sin only “horrible” things, like murder and stealing and sexual sins (admittedly a divserse group in itself), it gets easier to say “NO! That’s a sin!” But if we throw gossip and gluttony and sloth into the mix, well, the response gets softer….
What if we call sin “breaking covenant” — and then define what it means to keep covenant — to see what that might do to the view?
If keeping covenant is to look out for the best interest of the covenant partner, according to the terms and conditions of that covenant, then any breach of those terms and conditions results in “sin.” That would add “selfishness” and “thoughtlessness” to the pile of “sins” we’re considering.
Jesus was speaking to those under the Old Covenant … yet the apostles and all those under the New Covenant had a new paradigm, a new source of covenant-keeping power and a different way of dealing with covenant-breaking.
The paradigm shift was moving from law to grace. This cannot be underestimated, since the penalty for adultry was stoning. Jesus is calling out the hard-heartedness of the religious rulers. And when he was called upon to judge one caught in adultry, to cast the first stone, he not only asked that he without sin should cast the first stone … he, being the only one there without sin, chose to show grace and send her out with the encourage not to continue to sin.
The new source of covenant-keeping is the indwelling Holy Spirit, which convicts of sin and calls to repentance and reconciliation. The voice of the Holy Spirit is often tuned out in our day of live and let live, when we feel we are not our brother’s keepers, when we choose to be independent rather than interdependent … when we no longer feel called to confess our sins, one with another, so that we may be healed. We want a return to law, where there is the hope of finding a loop-hole through which to squeeze — or where pointing righteous fingers at “sinners” is a form of piety.
The new way of dealing with covenant-breaking is the forgivenes of sins that Christ’s covenant-making and covenant-breaking sacrifice brought into existence. The price for bringing us into covenant with God, for adopting us as joint-heirs with Jesus, has been made. Done deal. The price for restoring relationships in the covenant, when we fail to look out for the best interest of our partners, has also been paid. Done deal. Forgiveness is ours when we confess and repent and reconciilation is available when we yield to the Holy Spirit’s power to transform.
It is the consequences for our actions in this covenant that most often catch us … yet even these can be transformed (Rom. 8:28).
Sadly, marriage is too often entered into too lightly, too early, with too low expectations and too little commitment. When that is the case, it is difficult to maintain when the going gets rough.
I believe divorce is a sin. It is a breaking of covenant. But it, like other sin, can be repented of and forgiven. The consequences will be used by God in many ways to work things for good.
That being said, for those who do not respect the covenant, they will always find a way to get what they think they want, God help them. But we must find ways to revive respect for and commitment to the covenant that calls forth the attitudes of love and grace and mercy into actions of submission, service and initiative. Not judgment.
Sorry for the long post…have deep feelings for this topic.
posted November 10, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Rebeccat,
beautiful thoughts. Thank you for bringing life to this topic. You wrote the other side of my thoughts on this post. You can approach this from a dry, theological/filosophical framework (as I did) and tell a story of real life (which is what you did). That’s how actually the Bible is mostly presented to us, as stories.
I hoped for someone with a post like yours to be added to the discussion becuase it would complete what I started (I didn’t want my post to be long covering all angles). THANK YOU !!!
posted November 10, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I agree that Jesus pointed out divorce was granted because of hardness of heart. We are not to read that verse as if divorce is automatic is there’s unfaithfulness. I do think divorce is granted if there’s abuse. God doesn’t mean for us to live with abuse. But I think remarriage is not allowed.
It really ticks me off when I hear of a couple in trouble and they don’t do counseling. Many times I’ve heard the excuse of either he/she didn’t want to go or the person went but didn’t get anything so quit counseling. We have friends right now that are living more like roommeates than a married couple and they complain but aren’t willing to do counseling. I don’t understand it.
For too many years in our marriage I had one awful attitude that continually broke down the marriage or made it hard at least. At year 25 of our marriage (he put up with it that long) I thought either I leave him or I accept him as he is and chose the latter and what a big difference in has made. We also did counseling and it helped tremendously in us being able to hear each other’s hearts instead of argue about something that isn’t really relevant to what’s wanted.
We also had a time when he had betrayed me and the betrayal felt as if he’d been with someone else. He’d hidden something from me for years in oru marriage and decided to reveal it to me. I didn’t wnnt to be around him. But I kept hearing God ask “have your forgiven him yet?” And I looked to God for that work of forgiveness in my heart. I did forgiven him one night. It didn’t mean everything was ok, I still needed time for trust to rebuild.
So we’ve had our troubles of not wanting to be with each other but we stuck it out. Hubby says our marriage has survived because of our stubbornness and the grace of God.
posted November 10, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Florin, “The point is if we are to mirror God in our marriages then there is only one option: endless faithfulness, endless forgiveness and endless love. Divorce, breaking of ones relationship is always the other party?s option, not ours. We will never stop loving, just as God never stops loving us. We embrace the other?s sinfulness in an attitude of humility knowing way too well our own and together we allow for God?s love to bath us and transform us.”
I don’t know. I don’t disagree that endless faithfulness, endless forgiveness, and endless love would reflect God’s love for us. But I’m not sure that anything less than that is somehow sinful or faithless. If a woman and her children are being abused, it’s probably dangerous to tell her to be like Hosea. I don’t like being on this side of the argument, because I think in general we’re too permissive of divorce. But I can’t quite go along with the “never ever” crowd. Divorce is always a failure. Sometimes it may be the least wrong option.
Note: When I say “sometimes” I don’t mean when it’s hard, or when you don’t like each other very much, or when you’re bored, or when the other person is sick, or because they’re not meeting your felt needs, or because you just don’t want to be married anymore.
posted November 10, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I will try to compress my current understanding into a bite-sized idea.
Marriage involves humans and where humans are involved, there will be victims. God calls us to forgive and restore relationships. Sometimes people abandon the marriage covenant or they turn it into a dangerous place where people are physically, spiritually, or emotionally assaulted on a regular basis. Both the OT and the NT recognize victims of marriage and make at least some allowance for escape.
Sometimes victims of abuse hear “God hates divorce” from Malachi echoing in their ears. God didn’t say that to victims of abuse – he said to successful men who were divorcing the wife of their youth in order to marry a new trophy wife, so to speak.
Under OT law, a man that sexually abused his children would technically be stoned. No divorce needed!
On the one hand, some people believe that marriage is locked in no matter what, with no escape clause. If you are a victim or abandoned, too bad. On the other, some people too casually take the “God doesn’t want me to be unhappy” approach and leave a marriage because they are hurt and tired.
If the marriage has become a sham, with one partner either persistently abusing the other partner, cheating on the other, or having abandoned the partner, then I believe the victim is free to divorce, take time to heal, and remarry as if a widow/widower.
If the marriage has become a discouraging and difficult place to be but it has not been abandoned, even if the partner is a jerk, then I believe it our duty to help shepherd them toward reconciliation and to keep lending them our hope.
Also, some people treat any sin, including abuse, murder, rape, theft, etc. etc. as pardonable and will smile and applaud God’s redemption of the worst of sinners. This includes current “trophies of grace” as well as past ones such as David and Paul – yet the same people might turn around and treat divorce as an irredeemable sin and will shelve the people who committed it or even those who were divorced against their wishes. This seems to me not to be in the spirit of either the OT or NT exceptions.
More to say but this is already a Dagwood sandwich and not bite-sized. I will post one comment as a follow-up below so that it is a separate thought.
posted November 10, 2008 at 4:59 pm
There is a subjective judgement invovled in naming abuse. How much is too much? On some small level, don’t we all face some sort of abuse each day? I was recently reading the Declaration of Independence with my son, and the following portion jumped out at me. I think it might apply to marriage as well:
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. ? Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
posted November 10, 2008 at 5:08 pm
oh, man! It didn’t keep my settings. Your Name at 4:59 above is me.
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:13 pm
Please consider reading
On Divorce and Remarriage: A Brief Treatment of Important Biblical Texts. There is so much tunnel vision on this topic that gets handed down over the years through the churches that believers hardly think critically about the complex topic of marriage and divorce. Moreover, how God weaves together the threads of redemption and marriage is vital, not only for understanding the “Story”, but also for a biblically faithful understanding of the covenant of marriage. Thanks, Scot, for addressing this for us!
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Good point, Your Name: how many times does something have to happen to become “a long train?” I know someone who physically abuses his wife by spitting in her face. One time would be enough for me. For her, it is like sitting at a railroad crossing so long you decide to turn off the car engine.
Oh, and Bob Brague, rhymes with Plague: naughty little monkey!
posted November 10, 2008 at 7:35 pm
This is an excellent discussion. Well handled on almost every post.
A significant observation I’ve made: Everyone I’ve ever discussed this issue with is appalled by divorce. Not a single one has ever seen it as a desirable situation to go through. As one of my friends puts it: No divorce occurs without sin.
I have to add this because everybody _wants to make marriage work_.
As I hinted in my first post, the problems involved (and as I can see everybody keeps eating around the edges of this) in a situation reaching the point of a divorce are the real issues.
Sexual fidelity, communication skills, mercy, empathy, etc. This is a large laundry list of pastoral and instructional things to tackle before marriage and during marriage and _before_ divorce.
The normal evangelical approach to the the issue is quite a bit like “closing the gate after the cattle get out.” In other words, we beat on the folks who have failed marriages and confine them to living single the rest of their lives. Beyond that, we aren’t doing much to address the problem — we’re just treating the symptom. In fact, we’re not really helping — problem is getting worse; not better.
I really do appreciate the ones who have shared their difficulties and I understand how extremely sensitive these issues are.
What I’d really appreciate hearing from you all is _positive_, _proactive_ things that can be taught to unmarried people and to newly married couples that will help them in the inevitable problems that come with marriage.
posted November 10, 2008 at 10:56 pm
My apologies to Bob and all Jesus Creeders for MY own ‘lame’ remarks. I am truly sorry.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Jeremiah: our positive, proactive advice for marriage is ALWAYS to consider the Husband/Wife bond as more sacred than any other. And this advice flies totally in the face of today’s attitude that the Mother/Child bond is more sacred. That attitude puts men in the position of being left out, cast aside, and treated only as sperm donors and financiers. Look at parenting-time and child support laws in this country. If evangelicals did one thing to make the most impact in supporting the family, that would be to get these laws changed so that fathers are considered worthy.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:15 pm
I’ve really appreciated the substance and humility of this conversation on a very difficult and for some very painful topic.
Forty years ago my grandfather was not allowed to serve as a deacon in his Baptist church because he was both divorced and remarried.
Today I know of very few Baptist churches who would say a divorce unequivocably disqualifies someone as a deacon. In fact, for a while the church I pastor had a diaconate that consisted of a majority of deacons who were either divorced or divorced and remarried.
Is this progress? Regress?
Divorce – like war (and sometimes as war) – is always a tragedy. A sign, as Jesus said, of “our hard hearts”. Yet, something deep inside me wants to affirm the fact that God restores and chooses to use people who are caught up, and sometimes complicit, in the sin of this world.
But for a church to say there is light at the end of the tunnel of divorce is one thing; for a church to ordain the (re)marriage of one or two previously divorced persons is quite another.
This is where I as a pastor am deeply ambivalent. I have married divorcees in the past. I celebrate the new life that has been brought together. I rejoice at what God has done in spite of all the pain and sin and heart-heartedness that was the path that brought these people together. I affirm all of this.
But I cannot affirm it on scriptural grounds. At least not with respect to Jesus’ words about marriage, divorce and remarriage. Instead, I affirm this new coming together on the same grounds that Jesus gave for healing on the Sabbath. I do so because I believe marriage is made for man and not man for marriage. I do so because marriage is for giving life; not for taking it away.
I do all of this; but not without fear and trembling.
If my grandfather were still alive today he would probably be a deacon. That I have to think is neither progress nor regress. It’s grace.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:23 pm
The reality is few marriages divorce due to serious physical abuse. If people would divorce on these grounds alone we would probably not even have this conversation. The vast majority of divorces happen on grounds that can be worked out. Like the situation this pastor presents us with: sexual relations outside marriage.
To be proactive and positive [Jeremiah], there are a lot of things that couple can do to avoid sexual infidelity and thus divorce. By this implying that almost all the time this is a two way street where both parties are guilty. [My wife and I are involved with pre-marital counseling/mentoring at our church and so we?re actively trying to help in this direction as you suggest it should be done.] People don?t happen ?by accident? to sleep around. This is the making of many factors of the marriage relationship. Lack of real, ungoing communication is usually the start. As a result unmet needs start to pile up, among which a very important one is an unsatisfactory sex life. This doesn?t mean what YOU think about your sex life, but what your partner thinks about it. You may think everything is ok, but because of lack of communication you don?t know exactly the opposite may be true. Then when someone comes along who meets the unmet needs and promises a great sex, is it hard to see why people are susceptible to fall for that?
Point is, when you are full the food temptation is very weak, pretty much non-existent. The hardest to fight temptation is when you starve, when you?re hungry. This idea that people do all they can to keep the love tank full, but somehow their spouse just want to fool around just doesn?t hold water in the real world, let?s be honest. As I said earlier, what we need to do in a situation of sexual relations outside marriage is to self-examine oursleves and see what is our part in it, admit it and try to work on the relationship from a humble position not from a hollier than thou one. People who follow this approach come on the other side a much stronger and happier couples.
posted November 10, 2008 at 11:43 pm
Have to say that forbidding remarriage is just not right, across the board.
To be abandoned by divorce, after 12 months of counseling, and years of emotional abuse, is to have experienced a very traumatic form of death by torture. Not only is the marriage dead, the memories cannot be cherished. It is, in a way, worse than widowhood–precisely because there is no comfort, only pain and shunning and judgment.
Until marriage is honored and entered into with much thought and prayer and humility and selflessness and mutuality and courageous commitment, the survival numbers will not be much better.
If you feel called to stick it out, stick it out as long as you can. If you believe God, in offering divorce as an option of “severe mercy”, is providing a way of escape, then I say “go in peace”.
But, please, don’t sweep someone’s pain under the rug off-handedly without sitting with them in silence and sharing their suffering and only saying something if the Holy Spirit compells you. More people say really dreadful things to people wrestling with divorce … it’s almost as bad as some of the the things people say at a physical death.
Sigh….
posted November 11, 2008 at 12:06 am
Mike Mangold — very insightful. I would tend to agree that marriage relationship ought to stronger than the mother-child (parent-child) relationship. Perhaps for a different reason than you gave: the marriage relationship is what children use to learn about their own desired (and real) marital relationships. If we are going to be good parents, we need to be good couples.
To the rest of you beloved ones, I have two stories to tell about marriage and divorce that are quite personal to my heart.
My brother caught his wife in two infidelities in eight years of marriage. The first was only a year after their marriage. The second was in the seventh year. He finally divorced her and chose to never remarry — not because he believed it wrong, but because he said he never wanted to go through that kind of pain again. He is a good faithful man who thankfully had one daughter (who he raised himself).
My sister is married to an emotionally abusive man (never physically) who has made her life into a daily trial for the last 20 years. She remains married — because she believes its the right thing to do. But, ironically, she has allowed it to destroy her faith. She no longer affiliates with any Christian group.
To my brother, I say he made the right decision to divorce. Though I wish he could find another person to see through his own pain.
To my sister, I wish she could have ended that misery long ago. It benefited no one — especially her. Her only son is on anti-depressants due to the whole environment around the marriage.
Sorry folks, I believe that Jesus wanted stable, healthy marriages. That’s not always possible (hence, hardness of hearts that Jesus mentioned). But, I do not believe he ever intended us to discourage people from being in healthy marriages — regardless how the earlier ones ended.
My two cents worth, here are the lessons that have helped me through 12 years of marriage and two children:
1. Forgiveness because I was first forgiven
2. Submission to the idea of being married — not the person with whom I am married.
3. Having compatible goals and expectations
4. Faith that all struggles have lessons for a better life.
I guess I could go on, but I’ll leave it at those.
posted November 11, 2008 at 7:58 am
In the hooplah about gay marriage, we (the Christian community) present this beautiful veneer of marriage: between one man and one woman, ordained of God, beautiful in its description of Christ and His church. But the outward picture is just that: veneer. The smallest blow will shatter the observer into a bleak and ugly picture of what marriage really is for so very many of us humans.
Our children are waiting longer and longer to get married and are in many cases not marrying at all. Why? Because they’ve seen what goes on behind closed doors. They’ve seen the lovelessness. They’ve seen the abuse. They’ve seen the infidelities. They’ve seen the silent treatments. They’ve seen unmet needs even if they did not recognize them as such.
We in the church have put up an idol of “Christian marriage” and fought against those who would give our idol to those we feel don’t deserve it. But we don’t honor it.
Our hearts are hard, indeed, when we refuse to forgive and allow the destruction of lives (both spouses, children, grandparents denied their grandchildren…) instead of humbling ourselves and forgiving as God for Christ’s sake, has forgiven us.
posted November 12, 2008 at 12:46 am
Tami: is it really so violent?
I’m not so sure that a foundation built on rock is only a veneer of rock. Sure, our hearts our hard just like the generation of Jesus, but that doesn’t mean we need to reply violence with violence. Peace, Sister.
posted November 12, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I just stumbled across this blog post today. Very timely. Suffice it to say that I am in the waning days of a particularly painful divorce, not of my choosing, nor, as self-serving as it may sound, of my own fault (my wife left me for another man).
I’ve been trying these last couple of years to make sense of the Bible’s teaching on divorce and remarriage. I think there are two links missing from much of the Christian discussion on these issues. The first is a distinction between a civil (legal) divorce and the breaking of the marital covenant. Marriage is both a legal agreement and a God-made union. It seems to me that there are situations where a civil divorce is warranted (infidelity, abuse, abandonment). It is a separate question entirely whether the breaking of the marital covenant (i.e. the rejection of one’s love for and commitment to the other, “till death do us part”) is warranted. I can’t think of any example in the Bible that supports this kind of tearing asunder what God has joined together. It flies in the face of marriage as the mirror God’s love. If the love I have for my wife is the kind that God has for me, the kind described in 1 Cor. 13, then it bears all things; it never fails. “To what end?”, you may ask.
This leads to the second missing link: suffering. As joyous as love is, love also entails suffering, even death. (“Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave Himself for her.”) God is not, so far as I can tell, in the business of helping us avoid suffering. He helps us bear the burden, comforts us, leads us away from temptation and delivers us from evil, but He doesn’t insure us against suffering, for it is suffering that makes us more like Christ and which draws us closer to the Father.
If our wedding vows mean anything, if our love for our spouses is unconditional, then we must abide by the covenant we made, even in the face of suffering. That’s real love — the kind that God has for us.
Will God forgive us if we divorce and/or remarry? Will he understand and have mercy on us? Of course. But if the question is whether God is pleased with it or whether it what will draw us closer to Him, then the answer must be no.
posted November 21, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Les McFall has an interested way to deal with the exception clause in Matthew 19:9. He has written a 43 page paper that reviews the changes in the Greek made by Erasmus that effect the way Matthew 19:9 has been translated. I reviewed McFall’s paper at Except For Fornication Clause of Matthew 19:9. I would love to hear some feedback on this position.