Catholics and Women's Ordination 2

Not that I am endorsing any denomination, but I agree with these views on this page. I asked myself, if one disobeys God in an effort, will He bless them in that? I would tend to crash against our
politically-correct culture and agree with scricpture; 'No.'

http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=229

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet." 1 Timothy 2:12
http://biblecommenter.com/1_timothy/2-12.htm
God bless, in His love

I realize that this discussion centers on Western practices. But it seems to me that it would be helpful to have Eastern and Oriental Orthodox voices in the discussion, too -- perhaps even some of the Assyrians. Their contexts were different. In some places they at least ordained deaconesses. What did they understand to be going on in ordination?

There has most certainly been a development or to quote Joseph Ratzinger vis-a-vis the evolution of the text of Peter's confession in the Gospels, "Something at first only tentatively grasped emerges into full clarity", there is a deepening and a flowering of what is. Let us also keep in mind that language is tradition.

Just as the disciples had a sufficient understanding of Jesus' relation to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, so too do I believe the disciples had a sufficient understanding of what it means to be a priest, even if in the main this latter "understanding" comes from later sources (echo), say at the least the 2nd Century. The Catholic Church does however compensate for this (New Testament Priesthood?) by pointing back to Judaism.

As for the Aristotelian import point, I'd recommend reading the chapter "Reservation of the Blessed Sacrament" in Ratzinger's "The Spirit of the Liturgy.

I found the chapter online, put up originaly by Ignatius Press as a taster. It'll give you an insight into how the Catholic Church understands the process of development.

http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/articles/reservation_of_the_blessed_sacrament/

This refers to the comment above abaout ordaining to word and sacrament: when i look at teh ministry gifts of the Spirit there does not seem to be a heirarchy. In Ephesians 4, some read hierarchy but it could just as well be a community of gifted people or gifted leaders who lead according the gifting of the Spirit.

Many Spirit gifted leaders could be ordained to build up one body.

Ordaining is kind of an institutional way of granting privelege to some and power and authority to some. I think the bible is a lot flatter than that. It seems that if one looks closely... leaders emerge as those who are mature in the faith and gifted by the Spirit and able to teach. All believers are sent to preach the gospel. Some are called to equip and are recognized by the body to do so. I think that is more what ordianation really is. It is not a bestowal of some mystical power apart from what that person already is in Christ.

It's not about power or authority but about service and function to build the kingdom of God so that all the world might know Christ and the power ofhis resurrection.

Scot -- I mentioned the Eastern siblings because priestly ordination was very much associated with the celebration of the "holy mysteries" in the Orthodox tradition -- way before the 13th century -- but not exclusively. They had a gazillion minor orders (with only two or three surviving today). Even into recent memory they've had ordained deaconesses in some places.

In the West the Reformers don't just continue on with the received view of ordination but they add to it with their emphasis on WORD and Sacrament. There is a shift and it begins to emphasize the teaching aspects of the office. Luther also innovates with an emphasis on baptism as the primary form of ordination. We're all ordained to ministry through our baptism.

Another important church to bring to the table if we're having discussion of ancient understandings of ordination are the Celts. They seem to be a lot more flexible. I remember reading of some 6th century Western bishops writing to the Celtic churches, expressing their concern that they were letting women preside over the Lord's table. (Don't ask me for a reference.) I don't think that there was uniformity of practice on this issue.

I guess I'm just going to have to pick up Macy's book.