How there could be an honest comparison here just blows me away. Did the Nazi’s ever stop to allow humanitarian aid in to take care of the people? Did the Nazi’s ever make phone calls to the doorsteps of their enemy before the bomb to give them a chance to take their families away? Those are two very compassionate moves on the part of Israel.
Ohh, and the goal of Israel is not the total annihilation of a people, it is the destabliziation of a wicked regime. It is time for that Vatican official to wake up.

I would disagree with Your Name (aka anonymous). While it may not be quite to the Concentration Camp stage, certainly I believe it is an honest comparison.
Humanitarian aid? Israel is disallowing aid to go in on many fronts. The three hour window was only allowed after extreme international pressure was brought to bear on Israel.
Compassion? “Here’s your friendly wake-up call. We will commence bombing shortly”. That’s compassionate? Those phone calls are nothing but CYA attempts. When the people for whom Israel is so “compassionate” aren’t able to get out of the way in time, Israel falls back to “but we warned them! It’s their fault now.”
You state, “the goal of Israel is not the total annihilation of a people, it is the destabliziation [sic] of a wicked regime.” Really? What exactly is the wicked regime they are trying to destabilize? The democratically elected Abbas? Or the democratically elected members of the parliament (or just the ones loyal to Hamas)? Even if they do achieve this goal, just what do they expect to replace it? Are the Palestinians going to vote for more pro-Israel candidates now?
Oh right, they’re expecting the “compassion” thing to help them in the next election…..
I do think that the statement by Cardinal Renato Martino holds water, even though it is not entirely accurate from an historical standpoint. Rather than the concentration camps, this is a bit more like the Jewish Ghettos that were scattered all around the Nazi sphere of influence. Probably only a step above the concentration camps from a human rights standpoint, I too probably would have used the same words as the Cardinal. Concentration Camps holds a lot more emotional weight than Ghetto. If the Israeli government can’t handle a few words, tough. They’ve made their bed, they’d better hope they actually get to wake up in it. That’s more than 900 Palestinians can hope for.

I did not intend to be anonymous on the last post. I hate anonymous posters and I apologize.
As to your comment about them being democratically elected…so?? does that mean that they are not evil or wrong?
Despite my last post I am not all pro Israel on this, but I am definitely not supporting Palestine either. If they would stop lobbing missles at eachother and bargain together, in good faith, life would be different.
My sympathies lie in the Israel camp right now because they are defending themselves. I would not want to live in a nation that would tolerate missles being sent into hit innocent civillians for very long. We forget Israel is having casualties in this war as well.

This is such unfortunate language for the vatican to have used. The Jews never aligned themselves with or elected groups whose stated goal was to wipe the German people off the face of the planet. The Jews never harbored people who rocketed German cities or supplied suicide bombers to target markets and buses of children and other civilians. From a historical stand point, the conduct of the state of Israel has been beyond exemplary. Of course, a quick view of history would show that this is a very relative comparison as war has often meant destroying not just the government or leaders of the enemy, but their men, women, children and all they have and depend on. The simple fact is that Israel is on the knife’s leading edge of humanity’s attempts to move from all-out wars of total decimation to a more considered, careful approach which separates beligerant actors from people just trying to live their lives. IOW, it is trying to do what has never been done before except perhaps quite recently in Iraq. Any criticism of Israel must be made with this difficult fact in mind, IMO.
That being said, the conditions in Gaza are and have been for ages, truly awful and extremely counter productive towards the long term goal of getting the Arab world to accept Israel’s existence. As people who care about other people, this is unacceptable. However, from a strategic POV, it is hard to see how it can be otherwise. I think that the international community needs to stop focusing just on Israel and put just as much pressure on the Palestinians to make peace with Israel and stomp out the violent actors in their midst. Expecting Israel to make things better by desisting is like expecting them to clap with one hand – it’s just not going to work.

The comparison of Gaza to a concentration camp is ludicrous. In fact, the Palestinians in Gaza hold the key to their own prison in their hands, they just refuse to use it. If the Palestinians halted their terrorist attacks on Israel and agreed to live in peace, there would be peace.
The old though experiment tells you who is right and who is wrong in this situation.
If the Palestinians laid down their arms, no one would be dying in Israel, Gaza or the West Bank. If the Israelis laid down their arms, there wouldn’t be a Jew left in the region by this weekend.
The goal of the concentration camps was the extermination of the Jewish people (and the disabled and homosexuals, etc.). The less-than-successful blockade (as witnessed by the large number of rockets that continue to find their way in) of Gaza by the Israelis is an effort to prevent terrorist attacks.
Those Palestinians in Gaza, sadly, have no one to blame for their condition except for themselves (and UNRWA).

I think the Vatican is using technical language here when it comes to concentration camp. Sad to say it was it the British who “invented” concentration camps during the Boer War. Boer civilians were taken from farms etc where they were helping and supporting the Boer irregular forces and “concentrated” in camps where they could be controlled and were unable to assist in the war. Sadly thousands died due to a mixture of disease and malnutrition.
I think in this sense given the Israeli blockade of Gaza and their new defensive wall the Vatican are correct in calling Gaza a “concentration” camp and the parallel with the British treatment of the Boers is a viable one.
Sadly most people equate concentration camp with the Nazi’s extermination camps where genocide was premeditated. Given this common meaning I think the Vatican have been unnecessarily provocative in calling Gaza a concentration camp.

The language of the Vatican may well be provocative, but sometimes it necessary to use provocative language for those of us who are only witnessing the horrors of the situation (for both communities)from the comforts of our safe and secure homes. As I read the prophets, Jesus and John’s Revelation it helps me to understand that it is necessary for the prophetic voice to be provocative.

Starting with question #2…
I don’t think this type of language is all that appropriate. To use the words “concentration camp” is to conjure images of the Nazi’s and their attempted extermination of the Jewish people…and all the emotions that comes with it. Sure it proves a point, but to who? Most people will not be able to hear the intended message and will just get ticked off at what they feel is a lack of comparison (and then that anger will probably be directed at the church and possibly God). I think there are other ways that communicate a similar message with a less confrontational and emotionally charged term.
As for the first question:
I disagree with #5 and the comment “From a historical stand point, the conduct of the state of Israel has been beyond exemplary.” Israel has an awful Human Rights record when it comes to dealing with the Palestinian people. The UN and the World Court and others have shown this over and over. For a Christian Perspective on Israel, we can look at the story of Elias Chacour (a Palestinian Christian who has lived in Palestine/Israel his entire life). You can also check out easy reads such as “Whose Land, Whose Promise?” by Gary Burge that give a good summary of Israel’s handling of the situation (and their many abuses).
I can only imagine that the situation in Gaza is awful. Before the current violence started, the situation was pretty bad in Gaza (and in the West Bank for that matter), so I can’t imagine what it’s like now with all the violence. Those who are allowed into Gaza to report (UN and a few reporters such as those from Al-Jezeera) are saying some really awful things about the way people are forced to live currently

Though some might take issue with such a strong statement… I feel strong statements are needed at this point!
So to answer question 2:
Yes.
For sure, there are no easy answers here.
But this just seems to be the continuation of the cycle of violence in the area… will everyday Palestinians now turn against Hamas and see Israel’s point of view?… no way! If history is any precedent, this will continue to drive a wedge, and make Hamas the martyrs.
About question 1:
The Vatican official is correct in the sense that the humanitarian situation amongst Palestinians in the area has been awful… if you take away their injustice, you take away their cause. Keep fighting, in neighborhoods with civilian casualties, and now they have a reason to ‘defend themselves’… the cycle continues.

With the gazillions of dollars the Arab oil shieks have and spend on palaces, extravagant weddings, planes, trains and automobiles, they could alleviate Gaza’s poverty in a nanosecond if they wished to do so.
But they’d rather let it be a festering cancerous sore in Israel’s vitals.

First of all, the two things cannot be compared but are apples and oranges. Second of all, when Christians speak this way, great injustice is done and the name of God is wronged in the world.
As to my first point, the concentration camps are apples and Gaza is oranges. Apples: an Arab population chose war over the U.N. agreement of November 1947 and now lives in an overcrowded, militarized state because of one bad decision after another. Oranges: Jews were rounded up like dogs and forced into sleeping 4 to a bed, eating half a potato a day, and taking Zyklon showers.
As to my second, God has never, to my knowledge, revoked the Abrahamic covenant. And Romans 11:2 (and the whole chapter) is remarkably clear. But some find it vogue to lean the opposite way of the Bible and to call it godly. Christians who disagree with Israel should disagree as friends, not as vehement despisers.
derek4messiah.wordpress.com

Derek,
Not only is nonviolent resistance the biblical way, but violence does not bring about peace. It breeds a culture of violence and it breeds retaliation.
Anger does not produce God’s justice — James 1.

Derek,
Sorry: #12 is a response to the other post. I get delays on the appearance of comments and assumed your other response was here.
I agree that the Vatican’s comment is inflammatory, and unwise and unhelpful. Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians, however, is unjust. (Do you agree on that one?)
Here’s a question just to hear your viewpoint — and we probably agree here: Is the modern Israeli state the covenant people of God?

Only one thing to add.
Seems like everybody here–very understandably–equates the term ‘concentration camp’ with Nazi Germany. But concentration camps have a pretty long history.
Wikipedia has an interesting discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentration_camp#Concentration_camps
As the name suggest, concentration camps are places where populations of ‘undesirables’–even if none of them or only a small percentage of them are a real threat–are ‘concentrated’ and aggressively or passively abused by those in power. A couple of examples in American history: Native American reservations, and Japanese American ‘internment’ camps during WW2. Many of us think Guantanamo qualifies.
By that more general definition I don’t think there’s much question that Israel is running a concentration camp in Palestine.
Obviously, the Israelis aren’t close to the extremes of aggressive abuse the Nazis advanced with precision. So I’m very sympathetic to those who think the cardinal may have gone over the top if purposely suggesting links to Nazi Germany.
But maybe he was simply suggesting an apt parallel with many other concentration camps throughout history.

Paul, I didn’t say that from a moral standpoint Israel’s conduct of war is exemplary; I said from a historical standpoint it was. Historically, Dresden, the bombing of London, the firebombing of Tokyo, etc are normal. Making any effort to spare civilians while beligerants are hiding in their midst is abnormal from a historical standpoint. We act like there’s some model that Israel could be following and isn’t when they are trying to defend themselves against an implacable enemy without causing horrendous suffering on the people. But there is NO model for doing what we want Israel to do.
Also, MattR, you say that if Israel took away the injustice, the motivation of Hamas would likewise disappear. If only it were as simple as you say. Unfortunately, Hamas is being guided by a virulent form of Islam in which destroying Israel is Godly work that they cannot abandon. No change in circumstances will change their motivation – at best it will undermine some of the public support they claim, but that’s about it. Hamas is like Iran who is in no way being threatened, oppressed or harmed by Israel, but who would gladly wipe it off the planet should they gain the ability to do so.
The situation and history is far more complicated than many of Israel’s critics are aware of. And I say this as someone who used to be a fierce critic of Israel. I still do not approve of many of the things Israel has done over the course of this conflict. However, after watching it closely for long enough and actually taking the time to learn the history, the best I can say is that Israel is about 20% in the wrong and the Palestinians (or at least their leaders) are about 95% in the wrong.

Rebeccat,
I said there are no easy solutions…
I think we both agree, the history of the situation is complex.
I do know a bit, and am not, by the way, a critic of Israel, in fact one half of my family is Jewish!
I just think when you state (and have heard others say similar) that the Palestinians are 95% in wrong, it just doesn’t hold up…
To hear the stories of Christians in the area paints a different picture.
Palestinian leadership issues for sure! But my point was more along the lines of; is this really how you win the hearts and minds of average people? No leadership change will make much difference unless you work from the ground up.
AND (see Scot’s comment)… violence almost always leads to more violence.

Nazi internment of Jews during the 1940′s took on many forms from inner city “ghettos” (Umschalgplatz etc.) to “work camps” (artbeitslager) to “death camps” (such as at Treblinka). Using the term “concentration” camp could mean anything. If the Vatican official simply means that conditions in Gaza are ?bad?, like conditions for interred Jews during WWII were ?bad? then yes, the point is well made.
However, if the Vatican official is saying that Israeli actions in Gaza are tantamount to the “final solution” then the statement is WAY off the mark. Unfortunately, in modern media culture, any reference to the Jews during World War Two is usually interpreted as a reference to the “Final Solution”. . . this is just the media being particularly useless, as usual.

Scot said – “Here’s a question just to hear your viewpoint — and we probably agree here: Is the modern Israeli state the covenant people of God?”
I know many who would state that the Jewish people have a unique and special covenant with God. Yes, the Church – Jews and Gentiles made one in the Messiah are the “covenant people of God”, but Israel has a unique covenant with promises that applies specific to the Jewish people. Modern Israel (the nation) is made up of Jewish people and thereby is part of the covenant. When John Paul went to Israel he said Israel holds a unique covenant with God, other church bodies like PCUSA have made similar theological statements about Israel’s unique covenant with God, etc.

For example, consider these statements here:
http://www.pcusa.org/interfaith/study/christiansjews.htm

or here:
The 199th General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) (1987) adopted “A Theological Understanding of the Relationship between Christians and Jews” for study and reflection. Its affirmations propose a foundation for Christian relationships with Jews:
The God who addresses both Christians and Jews is the same ? the living and true God.
The church’s identity is intimately related to the continuing identity of the Jewish people.
We are willing to ponder with Jews the mystery of God’s election of both Jews and Christians to be a light to the nations.
As Christians we acknowledge that Jews are in covenant relationship with God, and we consider the implications of this reality for evangelism and witness.
As Christians we acknowledge in repentance the church’s complicity in proliferation of anti-Jewish attitudes and actions, and we determine to put an end to the teaching of contempt for Jews.
We are willing to investigate the continuing significance of the promise of “land,” with its associated obligations, and to explore the implications for Christian theology.
We act in hope, which we share with Jews, as we both await the final manifestation of God’s promise of the peaceable kingdom

Scot said – “Here’s a question just to hear your viewpoint — and we probably agree here: Is the modern Israeli state the covenant people of God?”
Glenn responds that Modern Israel (the nation) is made up of Jewish people and thereby is part of the covenant.
However, modern Isreali is not made up exclusively of Jewish people. the Israeli government recognises 5 Religinos, including Islam and 10 Christian groups. I would ask; are non-jews (such as Israeli Arabs) within the Israeli state therefore part of this “covenant people of God”? Are Palestinian sympathisers who are Israeli citizens part of the “covenant people of God”?

Phil, there is an exception to every rule. While modern Israel consist of many ethnic and cultural backgrounds, Israel does define itself as a Jewish state and the government as a whole is seen as representing the Jewish people in Israel. In fact there are some who believe that as long as Israel seeks to control it’s population and identify as a majority Jewish state it will remain a problem as some would like to see more Arabs and non-Jews make up a greater percentage of the population.

So the question remains. Are non-Jewish (e.e Islamic) citizens of the Israeli state considered part of this “covenant people of God”?

Rebeccat, what about this: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/12/white.phosphorus/index.html?iref=newssearch
Glen,
A question… is Jewish a belief or an ethnicity (when it comes to covenant)? In other words, can a person be an atheist/agnostic Jew and still be part of the covenant?

Romans 11 does say that God has not rejected his people, but in reading further, we are given a clear indication that God makes a distinction between ALL the Jews, and the ones whom have remained steadfast to him.
This action is well beyond defense. Start comparing numbers of dead and number wounded. It isn’t even close. Add to the extreme disparity in the casualties the fact that a significant portion of the casualties on the Palestinian side are non-combatant – children, eldery, women.
Israel has every right to defend themselves – I have yet to find anyone who can provide a rationalization as to how this is defense.

Jeff, whilst I agree that it is hard to justify the Israeli actions (In fact, I’m not sure about trying to justify any violence), I’m also not convinced that the children, eldery, women are necessarily non-combatant. The distinction between combatant and non-combatant is a large part of the problem when dealing with conflicts of this nature.

Scot:
You asked if the modern Israeli state is the covenant people of God.
The Israeli people and all Jews are the covenant people of God (Rom. 11:2).
Governments are not people, but people are in governments.
Derek

Scot:
It is hard for me to take seriously a position that Israel should do nothing and let missiles be sent against them.
I don’t know how non-violent response could help here. Are you saying you should let yourself die rather than respond? Should governments let their people die with no response? Is there some other response besides war that would save Israeli lives?

The ongoing tragedy… Again, I urge you to read Jimmy Carter’s provocative book, ?Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.” I agree that the Vatican language was inappropriate, but I think the apartheid description may be appropriate. It pains be that a people so abused for centuries have become the abusers. Of course, Hamas is also a large part of the problem, but until Israel withdraws to their UN mandated boundaries and tears down the fences, Hamas or a similar group will have the support of the Palestine people and there will be no end to the tragedy. Israel needs tough love from the people and government who support her-us. Only when she does what she has promised to do, withdraw to the her original boundaries and tear down the fences can many of us support her without serious qualifications.
Doug

Derek @ 28, “Are you saying you should let yourself die rather than respond?”
Yes, I think that’s exactly what he’s saying. You may not agree, but this shouldn’t be an unknown position to you. Martin Luther King, Jr’s birthday is next week. You should probably read up on him a bit.

Travis, I would also add Ghandi alongside MLKJr. And what of Christ also?

In answer to your question, I’m wondering what we should call something like 130 square miles of land, surrounded on two sides by Israeli fences/walls/checkpoints, a small area that the Egyptians control, and the sea on the fourth side, an area that no one is allowed to leave, and an area that has been under siege for about 2 years, letting little if anything in (except what is smuggled in or brought in by relief trucks), but if that’s not a concentration camp, is it a reservation, or is it the world’s largest prison?

#28 Derek:
Yeah, this isn’t the popular opinion, but maybe the Israelis should leave. There is lots of land of greater value in the world which no one would mind if they lived there. The reality is that if Israel wanted to move, the world would help them move and they would be better off.
and #32 Bob:
You are right on. Gaza is a prison. Gaza is also a reservation. Gaza is also a ghetto. Gaza is also an interment camp. and yes, gaza is a concentration camp, that this week has been a death camp.