To say God is sovereign is to say He has the right and the power to act as He wishes, not to say that everything coming to pass is directly from his hands. Further, point #2 doesn’t necessarily follow, and the most deterministic believers would say that even if something bad–disaster, catastrophe, etc.–happens, and even if it comes from the hand of God, that it could be something other than judgment. It could be a time of trial–akin to Job–that is for growing and strengthening. I’m not saying this is where I stand, just that one can believe God is sovereign in the universe while not holding to a completely deterministic view of things, and that bad things can sometimes be God’s judgment, and other times serve another purpose. Excluding the middle is not necessary to make this point.

Alan,
Good points. I modified the post with some brackets. I was using “sovereign” in a more deterministic sense and by “judgment” I would include the sense of discipline.
I’m more concerned with the claims of this sort of revelatory knowledge.

Good post.
No joke, I was told by someone that Katrina was likely God’s judgement against New Orleans due to a high abortion rate. When I pointed out that the reasoning did not seem logically consistent to me, the immediate response implied that I couldn’t handle God’s truth and justice and sovereignty and all that. I found it a little convenient that as long as all those rotten people down there were getting God’s judgement, then perhaps I am absolved of any compassion or obligation to them.
In this sense, Scot, I think that what you describe as zealotry is related to this kind of reasoning. I say this because the people who make such declarations seem to be closed to any reasoning about it. They know the truth and if you disagree with them, then you clearly are rejecting the truth.
In response to the earthquakes in California some years back, I thought Jack Hayford did a good job of pointing out that on one hand, some people presumptuously mocked God and scoffed at the idea that he might have a hand in it or that he might be dealing in some way with various sins present in the affected area. On the other hand, it is also presumptuous to declare that we know the mind of God and we know what he did and why he did it. The better attitude is to remain teachable and open and not pretend to know what God is thinking and intending.

Ugh. I just wrote a long post and it was erased when I refreshed the
hidden word (though it told me I wouldn’t lose the comment…) . Anyway, I’m thankful for this post. I’ve been wondering why we even say, “God made Obama president” in the first place. To me, this is scary language and implies that God put Hilter, Mao and Stalin in power. It implies that God made Europeans kill and take the land of Native Americans and God made Leopold 2 have power so he could take over the D.R. Congo and its resources, enslaving and/or killing hundreds of thousands of people so he could build some castles in Belgium. See how I shudder at this thought that it is always God’s will that people are in power, whether evil or good? And I heard some people say before Obama was elected (and they were not voting for him), “If Obama becomes president, I’m afraid that means things are worse off than I thought.” They were trying to say that the U.S. has strayed so far from its “Christian roots” that God is trying to punish us or at least give us what we had coming. “Throwing us to the wolves” in other words. Well, how about if we don’t demonize human beings for starters? (Inluding the aforementioned list of brutal dictators). I guess so much of this goes back to where we find ourselves on the Calvinist-Armenian-Open Theism continuum (if it really is a true continuum). Unfortunately, I only know enough about the three to see that I’m not really a “pure” one of any of them. But below are some thoughts from Greg Boyd (open theist) that raise some good points.
? God many times speaks and even thinks (e.g. Ex. 13.17) of the future in terms of what might and might not happen. For example, he tells Ezekiel to enact a certain prophecy, promising him that “perhaps” the children of Israel will understand (Ezek. 12.3). Turns out they DIDN’T. If God motivated Ezekiel by telling him that the children of Israel MIGHT understand, while knowing from all eternity they would NOT understand, was he lying?
? God frequently changes his mind, sometimes after specifically declaring he INTENDED to act in a certain way. (If it was eternally certain he wouldn’t change his mind, a) what does the Bible mean when it says he DID change his mind and b) was he lying when he INTENDED to do what he ended up not doing.
? God sometimes says he EXPECTED something to happen that ended up not happening. (e.g. Jer.3.7-9, 19 I believe).
? God sometimes REGRETS the way things turn out — even things he himself did. (e.g. Gen.6.6; I Sam.15.12)
? God is frustrated, trying to accomplish things that don’t turn out as he wished (e.g. saving all people). Why try to do something you know can’t be accomplished.
? Many other verses imply an open future. (e.g. 2 Pet. 3.12 which tells us to “speed up” the time of the second coming).
So, did God choose Obama? Is it God’s will that Obama is president? Are these the important questions to be asking? Or should we be asking questions about how to live faithfully as Christ-followers in a world where we follow a different authority and yet are told to obey the authority here on earth as long as it is not in contrast to God’s way of living?? Sorry for such a long comment…

Johnna, the same thing happened to me with my comment. I was just fortunate enough to be able to back track until it showed back up. But, I think you are exactly right. Many people I know simply say this is “all part of God’s plan.” But how can that be when they were so adamant just 1 day before the election that God wanted McCain in office? And, as you say, does that make Hitler just “part of God’s plan?” That’s some scary mess, to say the least. We make our theodicy more difficult by trying to make it easier. We give God credit for evil things, which is beyond oxymoronic, and it doesn’t make God all that trustworthy, imo.

Here’s what I do when a comment times out before I’ve posted it. I highlight the text and right click copy. Then if it gets lost I still have it. Unfortunately, I often forget to reinsert my initials (CAS) and that gets lost.

cas (and others)
On a PC based system:
control A automatically selects all of the text (easier than highlighting)
control C copies the text
Then I try to post – if it doesn’t work and loses the text (a rare but non-negligible outcome) control V repastes the text into the box.
If you switch to Safari or Firefox your initials are retained. Only internet explorer 7 loses the initials/name. IE7 doesn’t play well with this site in general.

I thought God in his sovereignty let the voters decide and they chose Obama.

Thanks RJS. I’m afraid I can’t get used to Firefox, though I have it installed. Perhaps I’ll give it another shot.

Luke 13:1-5
Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them?do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
This is a hard passage, with many strong implications for our lives, but one of them is surely that we ought not go around pronouncing God’s judgment on victims of various catastrophes. Our proper response, as always, is to check our own hearts.

I do not believe that God made Obama president. God gives us freedom of choice and the people voted for Obama. Whether or not God agrees with that decision, we don’t know. God watches over us, but does not make us do his will, that is our choice whether it be right or wrong.

If you believe in God’s sovereign control of this world, then it cuts both ways: if you think something bad or tragic or disastrous is a judgment by God, then everything bad or tragic or disastrous is a judgment by God [even if disciplinary].

This is inconsistent logic. It is a confusion of correlation with causation.
And it doesn’t find consistency with Scripture, either. Even a glimpse through parts of Old Testament history show that God at times uses tragic or disasterous events to judge Israel. Yet at other times things just happen to them that are consequences of their sin and/or fallenness, but not directly an act of judgment from God.
God allowed many things to happen to Job that were tragic and disasterous. Yet we are given the unique view of God’s sovereign control– that he allows these things for Job’s testing, and for His own glory.
Now, I agree with many of your conclusions– and I certainly think that ANY of the possibilities you suggest for Obama being President are viable. Nor do I think that belief in sovereignty = “I know what God is doing in this case.”
But it’s highly possible– indeed, probable– that God does use some events, tragic and disasterous, for our judgment. In fact, we should expect it: how dare we pray, as we so frequently do, that “God would bless America” and yet not expect that God might also, at times, curse America?

You could always take a Habakkuk spin on things; God put the unrighteous Obama in the White House to clean up his people. He lets the enemy dispense justice. Of course, I agree with you that meticulous sovereignty seems ridiculous if you have the gull enough to declare that you know what God is thinking. Our task in any time and in any place is simply to have faith, hope, and love and we all know which of these is the most important.

All good points. Here’s one more. Looking back, God made G.W. Bush President so we’d vote for Obama. Sorry…couldn’t resist ;^)

“It is far wiser to speak of what we have learned from an event than to declare, as if by revelation, what God intended. I’d rather be wise than foolishly pretend to revelatory knowledge.”
Very well, Scott. What HAVE you learned about Obama being elected President? To speak of what we have learned requires a degree of certainty; otherwise how would one know whether he’s progressing or regressing?
And for extra credit, how does what you have learned relate to the ordained will of God and the ushering in of the new Messianic Kingdom?

actually, some of the possible interpretations that Scot put forward make a lot of sense to me.
I think Christian did deserve a kind of rebuke for bedding down with dogs.
Instead of people thinking the “end of the world” has arrived in an Obama presidency they should go back and re-read Scot’s earlier article about their eschatology and where they actually put their trust despite their pious claims to the contrary.

Scot – enjoyed this post but the end confused me a little – are you arguing for a form of determinism here?

Aaron,
I’m for epistemic humility about what God is doing in this world. I believe God is sovereign in that God has the majestic power and authority, and I also believe God’s sovereignty is gracious in that God gave us the freedom. We make our beds and we sleep in. Yes, God “intervenes.” But, No, I don’t think we very often know what God is doing in specific events in this world. I’m not a determinist.

“1. If you believe in God’s sovereign control of this world [in a deterministic sense], then God wanted Obama in the White House and God didn’t want McCain in the White House.”
I’ve actually heard conservatives say just this … ala Romans 1.

Greetings All:
Actually this may irritate some but I had to say it… we need to stop putting God in a box and understand that He is God, period.
I think that many of the points are true, including the last one. God is in control.
That being said, God has ALWAYS done things so that there was no mistaking that it was Him that did them and not man’s work. Look at any great work of God in the Bible and things came down to the last wire, where only God could fix them.
My last thought…. many “conservatives” are not in the same camp as others…. we seek conservative values. I tend to be more centerist but live in a “conservative” state and enjoy doing so. Our state, having conservative and traditional values does not have some of the huge financial issues that other states do, in addition to other issues.
Blessings,
D. Moore

It’s unfortunate that so many that claim to know the mind of God don’t have a clue what His word says.

Since we’re talking about why God does what he does I’d be interested to hear why he made Holy Name Cathedral catch on fire last night.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1412459,w-holy-name-cathedral-fire-church-020409.article
Anyone know why?

Paula wrote: It’s unfortunate that so many that claim to know the mind of God don’t have a clue what His word says.
Actually as best I recall people I’ve heard claim to know God’s mind tend to quote the Bible to back up what they say, more often than not.

Helen @ 23,
That only means they know some of his word, the parts that bolster their opinion. Selective attention to the Bible is a huge problem.

Who said God has anything to do with how free-minded people vote in a democratic election?
Where did the idea come from that God is a master puppeteer, pulling strings and levers to control everything that happens on earth.
Yes, God is sovereign. And his grand purposes will ultimately prevail. And, yes, he sometimes chooses to intervene in the tiniest events, using his wisdom and authority.
But does he micro-manage everything? The Bible certainly doesn’t teach this. And it doesn’t take away from his authority for one second to suggest otherwise. In fact, it makes God even greater, IMO.

Great post! It’s been said that you know you’ve made God in your own image when he hates all the same people you hate or when he wants whatever you want.
My contribution to the madness: If God manipulates the results of every election and human choice is nothing but an illusion, then why vote?
It’s always been difficult for me to embrace the notion that God presides over every cruel dictatorship, every senseless war, and every rape of a child. I could be wrong, but I’m beginning to suspect that perhaps God chooses to suspend his power in order to give us free will…maybe in the same way that Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but humbled himself to the point of death on a cross. I don’t think God relinquishes his sovereignty when he willingly empties himself on our behalf.
I’m drawn to theologies that embrace actual free will because it means that we must start taking responsibility for what happens in the world rather than blaming God for it.

P.S. I voted for Obama. Just so no one thinks I consider his administration one of the “cruel dictatorships” I mentioned above. : )

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

For me sovereignty means 2 things : it is enough just to accept God is ultimately in control of everything. Now, that’a ultimately without saying he made Katrina or such things. Just enough to know God is running the show and rest in that assurance. Secondly, I agree with Rachel. We have to also accept humans free will because then humans bear responsibility, not God, or if it may be, blaming God. But in that, at the same time, resting in the assurance that God is in charge. I think we don’t know all the answers to the why’s. Schaeffer used to say the sovereignty is like 2 trees that entwine at the top. That is, the other tree is free will. I think we can make ourselves go crazy if we try to figure out how God was involved in every thing we can think of or come upon. For me at that point is the faith thing and trust thing of resting in the assurance that God is running the world. I may not know why something happened but I can know God is in charge.

Helen & Travis: “It’s unfortunate that so many that claim to know the mind of God don’t have a clue what His word says.”
Very often (not necessarily now) what this means is “don’t intepret the Bible like I do.”

It may be that God’s plan was for Obama to be in office as a very important player of the final days with the anti-Christ which appear gravely close. A most trustworthy m of predictions (who correctly predicted 9-11; Katrina; the Oct’08 financial crash; a further great financial crash on Jan 26, ’9) now predicts that the US will declare bankruptcy in the summer of ’09. By 2010, he predicts a global revolution. So, some political figure will be leading the masses. By 2012 there will be a strange mutation of life. This coincides with the loss of the electromagnetic field that was protecting us from the radiation of the sun. That has already occurred. Life will never be the same. So, pray and love each day. And, if you are a believer, pray to be raptured.

Kc – If we had a dollar for every time someone has claimed the end is near, we’d have enough to pay off the national debt. The truth is, as bad as things may seem right now because of our increased access to information, many scholars believe we are living through one of the most peaceful times in human history.

A thought for everyone who thinks it morally reprehensible for God to be responsible for bringing Hitler et. al to power:
Even if God’s sovereignty doesn’t imply determinism, His omniscience, omnipotence, and benevolence leave him “responsible” for the actions of those leaders. Even if He didn’t put Hitler in office directly, He saw what Hitler was doing and did nothing. And even if He couldn?t predict the Holocaust, He had to know what was going on once Hitler had killed a few thousand and was rounding up millions more. Why did He allow millions more to die?
I don’t want to start a debate on theodicy, I just want to point out that a deterministic God isn’t any more liable for the actions of evil leaders than a non-deterministic omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent God would be.

So, what does it mean to “take the Lord’s name in vain:”
To say, “Jesus Christ,” when I stub my toe, OR
to anoint our own silly ideas with “Thus saith the Lord?”

I like this post. I certainly don’t know the “why’s”. I tend to be skeptical of people with too many answers. I like the questions, thoughts, and learnings of folks. That is where I have found true wisdom.

Rachel…..Believing in the Bible is believing in the Final Days and the Book of Revelations. God does give free will, but,He also is All-Knowing of past, present and future. Now, He continues to watch it unfolding. Obama,with all of his grandiose promises, has already made some serious blunders. I wish I could give you a blog that would help you see that with the state of our Union and the economy…and the environment of the world that we are truly in the Final Days. Watch, Rachel, how the world proceeds in 2009. And, the Illuminati with the anti-Christ are not far behind.

PS. I,too voted for Obama. But, I continue to believe that God’s Story is in its Final Era of completion for His Glory and to be done with Satan’s people on earth.

Turns out our worst fears were confirmed. Obama will be the new head of the European Union so sayeth Jack Van Impe.

I got to KC on a Friday. By Saturday I learned a thing or two. Cause up to then I didn’t have an idee-
of what the modern world was coming to.
Come on Kc! You don’t know the mind of God or the future any more than the rest of us. Even Paul was wrong about Jesus returning during his lifetime. Maybe I could recover some of my retirement fund losses by betting you about the solvency of the US at the end of 2009 and the relative normative quality of war and revolution throughout 2010. I think I’ll pass on the strange mutation of life. That already happened.
Peace and a long happy life to you and all of us,
Doug

It’s a mystery to me why God would choose, allow, or even agree to an Obama presidency. But we have one. That does not mean reasonable people need to agree or remain silent about his agenda or any president’s agenda for that matter. We are all people who happen to be Christians not Christians who happen to be people. We all live in society striving mightily perhaps to not be “of” society. That does not necessarily mean the only wise ones are the ones who sit back and let the innocent die, the lazy be subsidized and the constitution strangled with progressive and liberal hands.
Is God involved in our day to day lives? Does he care who is or is not elected President? Does it cross his “mind” to get involved in stopping the mass murders on desert sands or ease the pain of starving babies across the globe or the exploitation of men and women in countries I can’t even pronounce the name of? I would like to think he sheds a tear now and then over all of it. I would also like to think it is a call to believers to stand up on their behalf.
Then again, in the grand scheme of things, our nation may be the least thing on the mind of the Almighty.
Guess I’ll relax and simply look forward to looking back and making sense of it all.

In the Bible we see God raising up rulers ranging from David to Nebuchadnezzar to Pilate. The interpretation of what God is doing with different rulers varies from blessing to judgment, even when the ruler is described as evil. The modern problem is in knowing which paradigm to apply at a given time.
This is one thread of a broader issue. People routinely attempt to interpret God’s intent with regard to all kinds of issues, big and small. I think we should not be more than tentative with such assessments most of the time.

I BELIEVE THAT EVERYONE SHOULD TEST OBAMA IN JUST BE PATIENT ON WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. GOD DIDNT MAKE OBAMA PRESIDENT POEPLE DID THEY BELIEVE IN HIM SO MUCH FOR CHANGE IN THIS WORLD SO THEY ELECTED HIM. BUT POEPLE FORGET OBAMA IS JUST A PERSON AND IF GOD HAS A PLAN FOR OBAMA THEN IT WILL BE REVEALED IN POEPLE WHO WALK WITH GOD WILL SEE IT. WE AREN’T SUPPOSE TO GET CAUGHT UP WITH CARES IN THIS WORLD THIS WORLD ISNT OUR HOME. SO GOD WONT MAKE EVERYTHING PERFECT BECAUSE SATAN STILL AND WILL ALWAYS RULE THIS WORLD. OUR PLACE AND OUR PROMISES ARENT OF THIS WORLD. POEPLE SHOULD PRAISE JESUS IN FOLLOW JESUS AS MUCH AS POEPLE PUT FAITH INTO OBAMA TO CHANGE THINGS. ONLY WAY TO RECIEVE WHAT ARE ALL LOOKING FOR THAT IS THROUGH JESUS. GOD BLESS EVERYONE

1. If you believe in God’s sovereign control of this world [in a deterministic sense], then God wanted Obama in the White House and God didn’t want McCain in the White House.>
No. It could be, and most likely was God’s permissive will.

I think that God allows us to make decisions and that the people did choose obama because they wanted change. I do not think that it was Gods will for Obama to be president though. We all have to realize that what the Bible says about the end times is happening right now and we are seeing the Bible be fulfilled as it says.

Maybe “God made Obama President” to judge us. Obama will impoverish us through taxation. He will make us financial slaves to China. He will destroy our economy by taxing those who provide jobs (the rich) out of existence and adding artificial costs to our energy. He will open us up to foreign attack by diminishing our nuclear capabilities and reducing funding for our defense. The terrorists have no need to attack us yet. We are doing a bang-up job of destroying ourselves through the man we elected. The terrorists can just come in and finish us off when the pickings are easy. How long has our God-denying, abortion-loving country been ripe for this? It is as though God is saying, “So, you want a king? I’ll give you a king!”