RJS,
I don’t teach at a research university as you do, but I can say this: I completely agree on the need for an “appropriately trained” staff. Those who genuinely want to help students think their way into issues — seriously — and through issues, will need to be both educated and capable to mentoring. Apologetics tends to give answers for Christians and to Christians; genuine education mentors the student to think through a topic on her or his own in such a way that “answers” are not given but methods of thinking encouraged.
Love this series you are doing for this blog.

Agree on the continuing education part, but I’d emphasize, to a much greater extent than you do, that if you’re going to require that kind of training, you have to help people get it. This is a huge problem with ministry in general. You cannot simply tell people to be more educated, to rack up huge debts before they can work in what is frankly not a high-paying job. Education matters, but just as God equips the called rather than calling the equipped, so should we.

While these are all important, I’d especially agree with 1 and 3.
re: 1
While it is not necessarily the student’s fault, much of the blame might be put on their tradition’s emphasis on “Just give me Jesus.” I knew I grew up with this and had this mentality for a short while before entering into undergraduate work in Biblical studies. I am not advocating that we stone these institutions, but what is evident and necessary is training in all spectra of ministry: from student leadership, lay and pastoral.
re: 3
As I see it, take that for what it’s worth, theology is heading to a global, ecumenical stage. No longer will it be buried under Western evangelical works, but now we are seeing more and more works coming from Asian theologians and Liberation theologians. An emphasis on ecumenicism needs to start at the local church level, though (a reference to training). If intra-denominational dialogue is going to take place in such a way that the validity of each is accepted and supported, there must first be leadership who reflects this and this taught.
As Mr. Greene said, it is not enough to tell people they need to be educated, you have to show them the importance thereof.

It could help if youth pastors and campus ministers stopped talking about university life as if it were a battleground. If the preparation they give students is “beware you will encounter homosexuals, atheists, and philosophy majors who are all out to destroy your faith!” the conversation is stunted from the start. People who are taught to be afraid of those things have no reason to thoughtfully and respectfully engage them.
And while I think ecumenical activities on campuses would be ideal, I think there is the proverbial snowball’s chance in hell of that happening. The recent fracturing of all things emerging is evidence that even the progressivish christians don’t want to work together. So how are you going to ever get students who have been taught that those not like them are going to hell to work alongside others (without seeing them as a project)?

I definitely agree with all of these.
1. I have seminary training, going to seminary and not planning to end up in a campus ministry. It is not something I would recommend for most who work in campus ministry, as you acquire extra debt. But I definitely think campus ministers need to be reading as much as possible to be able to help their students. If you’re in the academic environment, you should go along with the academic flow.
One challenge I see in this area though is that, at least where I serve, many students who attend our ministry come from very conservative evangelical churches. So they just kind of assume, for example, that their professor who teaches biology is flat out wrong about evolution. It is a passionate arrogance which I guess they received from their home church. But I am at the other end, trying to help them see that just because they have the Bible does not mean they know science (or economics or anything else) more than those who have studied it their whole lives. It is also interesting that my students who are science majors are the ones who say (to me, quietly, perhaps in fear of their Christian peers) that it sure looks like evolution has happened. What I am saying is that one of the biggest challenges I face is helping students see that just because they are Christians they are not right about everything else and they must learn in order to engage their professors well.
2. Being at a small campus I have been blessed with a wonderful relationship with administrators. At least here, the motto is that if it enhances student life they are in favor of it, so they have been helpful. We have even been able to get a few staff together to pray for campus monthly.
3. As the only Christian group on campus, we are blessedly forced to be ecumenical. I say it that way because I want us to be ecumenical and we have students from across the spectrum in our group and even our leadership team. Sometimes it has caused issues, as more fundamentalist students have dogmatically said Catholics are not Christians, but for the most part it has helped students to focus on what holds us all together as Christians.

Travis,
You are right – and this is a serious problem. Stackhouse suggests that organizations should provide loans that are paid back with years of service – which, of course, assumes that they can raise the money to pay for the loans and the forgiveness of the loans.
There is no easy fix.
On the other hand – I think that “arrogant amateurism” (a term Stackhouse uses) does a great disservice to the church within the University environment. We need rigorous thinking – not wishy-washy pseudo-intellectualism. This is why I added my own thoughts to the mix.
A seminary degree is not necessarily the answer for all – but constant continuing education is necessary. I am primarily self-taught in areas of Biblical studies and theology, but for the last five years I’ve been dedicating an hour a day, seven days a week to the effort – because I know that I have to be grounded. This is in addition to more traditional bible study and such.
A similar approach may be enough for some people, given some guidance in what to read and study. Many others don’t really know how to study and need a more formal experience – on-line courses may fit the bill here. Still others should be pursuing degrees and credentials.

RJS,
I agree. I’m waiting on seminary until my wife finishes it (with a joint MSW! I’ll never catch up!), but in the meantime I’m reading her school books, spending time online (like here for instance) in what I would consider a form of study, and trying to take advantage of the resources available to me in a pretty intellectual environment (between Duke and UNC-Chapel Hill, there’s lots going on).
I hope we can find some reasonable third way (as always) between the caricatures of the arrogant amateur who don’t need no book larnin’ and the superelitist who sniffs at the opinions of anyone without a miniature alphabet behind their name.

Very good discussion. I think, from what I see, there is a huge effort by some campus organizations to “cookier cutter” the students they have within their ranks. To me, that does two things: excludes a great number of students who want and need more discussion and exploration. And it also tends to give some false sense of security to those within the cookie cutter ranks, leading many to think they can become the cookie cutter leader; lather rinse and repeat with the next generation. This never addresses real students with real needs. Some organizations do a better job of engaging their minds, others just feel success when they hear the parrot truth spewed back at them.
I think there should be constant continuing education and some maturity achieved, but WHERE are they getting the right type of education to lead thinkers? It is NOT about mechanics and formulas. There needs to be real wisdom, and unfortunately, there also needs to be freedom from fundraising. Some seem to excel at that rather than the wisdom of how to handle truth.

Thank you for this discussion–it is much needed. I too share the conviction that University ministry is the single most strategic mission field in the world today, yet see little value or reflection placed on it.
As far as the educated/learned ministry goes, I couldn’t agree more. there are a variety of ways of doing this, and I don’t think we necessarily need to mandate that everyone in campus min. goes to seminary. (I speak as someone with an M.Div and ordained in my denomiination. I’ve worked for both a parachurch org. and a local church). But ought each campus have at least one trained staffer who can speak intelligbly and credibly into things like higher criticism, typical apologetics issues, and the like? To do this credibly will take seminary training.
It’s a missional imperative, esp. if we seek to engage the faculty. They don’t want to lend their name and reputation to something second-rate, anti-intellecutal and embarrassing.
Scot, I disagree that apologetics is for the Christians, as if it’s only their questions we’re answering. I’m at a large secular University, and am engaged in a regular dialogue with the leading atheists on campus. The purpose of this is two-fold: to evangelize them, and to model to my Christian students how to do this. I know that our weekly meetings have emboldened the Christians to become more open about their faith, and to not be intellectually ashamed of the Gospel. Apologetics–good apologetics (by this I mean presuppositional), not the silly stuff that has dominated much of campus ministry for too long–is more necessary than ever if we are to avoid retreating into what Tim Keller has called the “anti-intellecutal pietism” of most modern campus min.

RJS,
(1) Appropriately trained staff
You, and he, are right about that, though I think a lot could be accomplished with a serious reading list. A good primer on logic and some more rigorous books on theology and apologetics would probably go a long way for a start.
Specifically, they need to read the other side. It’s hard, sometimes painful, but necessary. If we only have a poor understanding of what they believe we cannot effectly discuss it.
On a related note…
Dave H said: “So they just kind of assume… that their professor who teaches biology is flat out wrong about evolution.”
And that’s probably not going to change. But we can teach them that this is not a productive way to have a conversation.
Back to RJS:
(2) Partner with faculty and administrators.
This may be the most interesting point here. Even if IVCF, CCC, and Navigators are separate groups, they can work together to reach out to the Christian faculty.
A professor who would never have the time to be a faculty advisor to a group may still be able to visit with them a couple of times a year. They can recommend reading and speakers, point out problems and areas where students are struggling, and encourage the students in their field.
(3) Be broadly ecumenical.
Which should, theoretically, be less contentious in groups that are less bible study/worship oriented and more cultural engagement oriented.

I think it’s a hard sell to ask people to get a PhD so that they can go into campus ministry. It’s important for people called to the university to keep learning and engaging in difficult topics, but people underestimate how much can be accomplished with a library card and an Amazon wishlist.

I appreciate all of the suggestions here. Let me add just a bit.
Before addressing the three topics I have two thoughts.
1. Julie’s comment #4 about campus as battleground is absolutely correct. Too many campus ministry folks dishonor the hard work of Christian faculty and the very honorable work of others by their presumptions that the university is against them. Some campuses are and some are half-full. But get to know your campus first.
2. Find wise people. The best practioner and advocate for campus ministry that really reaches the emerging generation here is a 72 year old retired physics prof. who invests in a few church ministry and campus ministry folks and a few students. We need to pray for and search out people like this on our campuses.
Re #1: All of the suggestions here are valid. Let me offer two additional suggestions. 1) Campus ministries should recruit among the pool of people who have already earned advanced degrees and are considering what to do with them. 2) Seminary is not the only way. Advanced degrees in history, English (and other literature, cultural studies, and the sciences are very helpful. Yes, we need to provide for and pray for support for education, but we should also recruit and pray for the Lord to send us people with these skills.
Re #2: This is where I would make the most changes in what I have done. 1) A faculty group was forming when I arrived on the job. I did not work closely enough with them to either see that they thrived or that I could partner with them. Five years of this leaves them flailing and our ministry without all of that faculty support. I failed to build that relationship. 2) IV’s grad-faculty ministries has put out a booklet “Faculty Salt” by the late John Alexander at UW-Madison. It is a great blueprint for getting faculty involved. I fear that it is out of print. But look for it, call for it. 3)Ministries should seek out Christian faculty to be active sponsors, as most universities require a faculty sponsor anyway.
Re #3: Broad ecumenism is the really tough nut. I don’t have any brief answers.
Peace,
Randy

As someone who teaches in a UK university, I like these three recommendations, though I can’t them being realised on our campuses here.
(1) Appropriately trained staff – there are lots of highly dedicated staff on UK student ministries teams, but they are overwhelmingly focussed on evangelism, discipling, and possibly some apologetics among undergraduate students, with little specialist training or time left over for mentoring bright students (and/or PhDs) struggling with intellectual issues.
(2) Partnership with faculty, administrators – this is not very common. In fact, the higher one gets up the university tree, the fewer Christians (at least evangelical Christians) one is likely to find. And there’s a big culture gap between undergraduate CU’s and staff fellowships.
(3) Be broadly ecumenical – Christian Unions in the UK do bring together quite a wide range of students, but speakers are all drawn from conservative evangelical or charismatic circles (they need to sign a doctrinal basis), so there is hardly any evangelical-Catholic cooperation, for example.
All of this is to say that student ministries are very heavily focussed on the undergraduate years, with relatively little done to prepare students for academic challenges beyond that (or even at that level).
Having said that, the Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship (the CU movement) does have good apologetics resources, some of which would help students in particular disciplines – google ‘bethinking’ to see them. But we’ve still got some way to go on your three points!

Good post, comments, and suggestions (including those “across the pond”).
Is it the view of those experienced in this arena that age is not a major factor? So often, those working in college ministries are expected (even required) to fit into a certain age bracket. Is age a factor, and if so, does education trump age (especially for the grad students)?
Due to some of the suggestions, it would not seem logistically feasible to expect many “younger” workers to fit those roles.
In regards to the ecumenical question, if Webber’s Ancient-Future mindset was stressed a little more, some of those barriers would come down.

RJS,
I promise to reply later this evening.

Rick,
I’ve known many working in college ministry who are not “young” and who have been working in the area for quite a long time. Of course many are young.
Marc,
Advanced degrees are not necessary – but credibility is essential and this means “know your stuff”. You can’t wing it and you can’t bluff it. A regular discipline of reading and a few local or online courses can go a long way toward this goal. But it has to be an expected priority. Seminary or an advanced degree can be good and at a large University a few with seminary training (as Steve says) or other training (as Randy points out) is desired. Even with an advanced degree however, continued study is necessary to stay sharp and current. No one know it all.

RJS,
Re: (1) Appropriately trained staff. I note here that so much of what is offered so far involves the receiving of degrees, the reading of books, and the like. I find this measure is a good one: but assumes something here: that said ?educated?/?trained? person can communicate what they?ve learned.
I would counter this by suggesting that we need campus ministers that have robust and growing lives in Jesus Christ who can educate, train, and mentor. That is not to say that many do not or are stuck in their discipleship; that is not to say many cannot persuasively communicate among grad students and faculty. I am simply stating that degrees and the accumulation of knowledge as the sufficient characteristic for campus ministry does not and has not produced or demonstrated that students and faculty will become thoughtful, passionate, and articulate followers of Jesus. Having persuasive educators and mentors, especially those campus ministers who are ready to keep on campus and learn from the university-even as an outsider- has generated and will likely generate women and men from within the faculty and the student body who love Jesus and make him known on campus and beyond.
Believe me, I agree with you, from a cultural perspective, that the campus minister with advanced and graduate degrees does get some accessibility within the university that the faithful minister you described with the BA in Business does not get. But, once you?re in: you better develop the collateral to stay in?
Re: (2) Partner with faculty and administrators. I serve at a major research institute: honestly, I believe you, but I don?t know that the faculty that I attempt to meet with have much interest in doing as much as you describe. But, I persist, and sense this post has made me reconsider that my expectations can grow at an appropriate pace that makes sense to the faculty. My own sense of idealism regarding faculty gets punctured and deflated more often than not; I wonder if my long-term presence may mean something different now to some of the faculty.
Re: (3) Be broadly ecumenical. This is a good one. I tend to perceive that there are more than a few broadsides here toward the evangelical crowd, of whom I live under their tent?having said this, and shared in the hosting of a campus-wide outreach event that included almost every single Christian ministry on campus, I was surprised by the provincial character and stereotyping performed by some of the mainline campus ministers. I had to take one aside and ask him to work some issues out with others we were collaborating with as he was very offensive in his remarks. Thankfully, he responded well, and we proceeded apace. So, one data point does not make a line.
But, I mention this as I know of other evangelical ministers for whom ecumenism is important. They just don?t want to be told that their values cannot be enacted, i.e., they cannot share the Gospel, when others from mainline ministries only want their value of presence to be enacted. Fair enough? Indeed, the whole notion of sharing the Gospel is predicated upon presence!!! But, instead, I and some of my colleagues, believing that unity is a mandate from Christ, not an optional affair of our predecessors of a previous generation, have initiated with our sisters and brothers in the mainline campus ministries: not everyone believes us, and furthermore, not everyone wants to get to know us. Hmm?Here again, I persist, and in this case, it is such people who are far more accessible than faculty. But, please: let?s all set aside the notion that somehow only the evangelicals don?t want to partner with other campus ministries: that kind of generalization deserves to be left alone, or at least reconsidered.
I don?t think you?re off-base; I would suggest that we ask a question that Stackhouse seemed to pose and then left off in his paper: what is the university? Once we begin to understand some of the cultural dynamics at play, we might revisit your proposals. Thanks again for this great post, and for all who comment: ?iron sharpening iron,? no?

Mike,
I actually think #3 is likely to be the hardest here – Christian cooperation. Rather ironic isn’t it?
On education – I am not concerned with degrees as much as I am concerned with “pseudo-intellectualism” and anti-intellectualism. I think the only way to counter this is to learn and study. So degrees and accumulation of knowledge doesn’t make one an effective witness, I agree with you 100% – but this isn’t an environment where speculation about the fall changing the wave function of the universe (an example I pick up from a comment on the last post) will get a good hearing.
On faculty interaction. We are a rather eccentric and busy lot. And Christians are in a definite minority, likely 3-4% here, perhaps less, and biased toward professional schools. I was trying to be realistic, which is why I suggested informal interaction. To begin with approach someone simply for perspective and insight. Hopefully more will come in time.

If I might come to the defense of mainline Christians — times may have changed since I was in college, but my impression as a college student was that the “ecumenical” Christian groups on campus disapproved of mainline-denomination students and saw as one of their goals “converting” them to (usually conservative) evangealicalism. I was a guest at several of these groups’ events, and was also targeted by one of them as a desireable “catch” (once they’d argued the Lutheranism out of me, of course) and bugged by various representatives of their organization until I finally had to tell them, “No thanks. Go away now.” And then there was the case of the young man from a well known campus “ministry” who literally leapt out of the shrubbery at me at 7:30 a.m., while I was on my way to an early class, to harrass me about “accepting Jesus as my personal savior” and who didn’t want to hear that Jesus had accepted me, thanks, and I was a happy, active part of a Christian faith community — who very nearly wound up with a shot of pepper spray in his face.
So those of you who’ve had prickly relationships with mainline churches need to understand that, on our side of the fence, we also experience not only disapproval but in many cases the perception that you’re out to “steal our sheep” because you don’t like our theology or biblical interpretative methodology. So if we have to be less standoffish and stereotypical in our thinking, you have to be more respectful of us as equal partners in the Reign of God, instead of feeling a compulsion to “save” your fellow Christians; something we have experienced. Among other things, in an increasingly irreligious society, it’s pretty stupid, isn’t it, for some campus parachurch organization to spend energy trying to turn mainliners into Evangelicals.
Now that I’ve gotten that off my chest (20+ years after the fact)…I attended a workshop for lay ministers on promoting ecumenical partnerships in communities. It was facilitated by a speaker from an organization in Grand Rapids, whose name escapes me, which promotes ecumenism and interfaith partnerships for the greater good. Our speaker pointed out that there are distinct circles of cooperation among faith communities that need to be respected in these sorts of endeavors, instead of trying to “moosh” everyone into some least-common-denominator generic Christianity. That in turn means that ecumenical endeavors that work best involve the most common values and practices, and avoid issues and practices that tend to divide; for instance, an ecumenical effort to help the needy in a community, or to aid a world relief agency, or a simple ecumenical prayer service, or a kind of teach-in event with a true variety of ecumenical voices, is going to be more bridge-building and fruitful than trying to jerry-rig a “generic Christian” Communion worship service that by definition is going to exclude faith communities that practice closed/close Communion, or an altar call that is by definition going to exclude traditions that don’t agree with that concept of how people are “saved.” To borrow Kelly Fryer’s criteria for building community in the Church, “Everyone is welcome” and “Everyone has something to offer” need to be taken to heart in these endeavors, IMHO.

LutheranChik,
Thanks for your comment. I’d want to affirm much of what you shared. I need to re-disclose here: while I find my home and journey with others under the “evangelical” tent- for lack of a better phrase here- I am also an ordained mainline pastor.
I mention this, as what you have described strikes me as exactly the kind of stereotyping that my evangelical colleagues and I experience when we affirm in practice the attempt to serve within the distinct circles of cooperation: it is when we do, we get comments and critiques- unsolicited- that it is those values and commitments to proclamation must be set aside or explicitly rejected as a condition for ecumenical partnership. In the example I cited above, none of the evangelicals in the room were aiming or surreptitiously planning to undermine or co-opt the partnership by inserting their evangelistic methodologies. But, that is exactly the warning shot across the bow we received from one of the mainline colleagues of mine. I was horrified and others in the room were shocked.
In later conversations with the evangelicals in the room, no one for a moment ever expressed any doubts or questions about the vitality or genuine commitments of the mainline communities represented in the collaboration. So, while it needs to be affirmed that there is a history- as you pointed out- of evangelicals behaving badly, I want to repeat my plea to those of the mainline communities that we do need each other and that history is slowly being repudiated among evangelicals as antithetical to Scripture. But, such a history is becoming redeveloped or rekindled among some of my mainline peers: it is an occasion for grief.
Let’s aim for a collaboration and even a fellowship that Jesus prayed for, while celebrating that some ministries have distinct, biblical, and fruitful expressions of the mission of God.

Ironically…the people I have learned the most from reading (NT Wright and CS Lewis) are “mainline,” the churches I attended in Philly and in Berkeley were “mainline” (PCUSA) and the person who sent me the e-mail about ecumenism is “mainline.” I find this to be an unproductive distinction. As unproductive as the categorization of all evangelicals by the positions of a certain (easy to critique) subset.

I’ll just add a comment on the age issue.
While having young hip people in campus ministry is important, I have found much receptivity among students to older folks with wisdom. Admittedly these are emotionally mature students who have gotten beyond the phase that much campus minsitry outreach seemed centered on.
But this is effort-intensive work precisely because students’ peers cannot provide it. Older faculty, former faculty or professional campus ministry people do.
This is the dilemma I find myself in. How does one multiply such ministry influence given how resource intensive it really is?
Peace,
Randy

LutheranChik and Mike, I can relate to both of you because I’m an evangelical and a Lutheran and enjoy fellowship ecumenically with many Christians.
If we can have more ecumenical events together, I think we can all be able to build a common understanding. We will avoid misunderstanding and hard feelings.
When I attended IVCF and fellowshipped with Catholics, I learned that Catholics were Christians too. When I became Lutheran, I learned that Lutherans were also saved just like evangelicals. Today, I’m a Lutheran and will be a Lutheran pastor in the very near future and hope to build that bridge that is much needed.

#3 is the hardest for me in terms of definition and in terms of history.
In definition, many of you have demonstrated well that our terms are quite slippery when it comes to defining what ‘ecumenical’ is, and what the nature of that partnership would be. I’m in favor of rigorous theological/worldview development that still reaches across the aisles. We’ll always differ on things, but we should know why we differ on them, and the non-essentials shouldn’t keep us from partnering.
Ecumenical partnership has been tried–and it seems that much of what happened under that banner was not sufficiently theologically informed. So what have we got for it? When we look at the ills of modern campus ministry–an often bland, shallow, consumeristic faith that is ill-equipped to deal with the modern university–doesn’t this mirror evangelicalism as a whole? And is it a merely correlative or actually causative relationship?
I guess I’m saying that much of campus ministry thought they were doing “mere” christianity when it was actually lowest-common-denominator christianity. Mere is robust; lcd is watered-down. Mere has staying power; lcd sees kids graduate from Jesus (or at least the Body of Christ) when they graduate college. Mere is transformative; lcd is simply transitional.
Ironically, I’ve found that the lcd ministries are the least likely to want to partner with fellow ministries (I’m thinking of one huge, int’l campus ministry in particular here). You would think that the more doctrinal commitments you have, the less you partner. But I’ve found the opposite to be true.

Randy,
You are right – it is effort intensive. And I agree – with serious questions young and hip isn’t worth as much a competence and experience especially as one moves beyond the typical undergrad ministry.
Which leads to a question – if everyone is equal in God’s sight, why should a ministry worker or agency invest in the effort intensive end to disciple 1 or 2 people when the same effort invested differently could reach 100?

In working with other churches, how are you to deal with other college ministries on the campus that have different theological and biblical understandings than you do? If we are to work with other churches or ministries within the university, how are we to settle different theological differences? I believe it is important to work with others, however, different understandings of the Bible can have an effect in doing ministry.

If we are to work with other churches or ministries within the university, how are we to settle different theological differences?
Again, going back to what I learned at the ecumenism workshop I attended — settling theological differences is not the business of ecumenical endeavors.
I would suggest to you that if you want to engage in ecumenical activities, you need to acknowledge other Christian churches/groups as peers in Christ — not inferior brands whose theology or praxis need to be fixed; not as Not Real Christians Like Us.[tm] If you harbor even a hint of either attitude, then you’re not going to be successful; you are going to be part of the problem that sabotages ecumenism.
What you need to do is find some no-brainer area of commonality where you can in good conscience and in good faith work with other Christians. As I mentioned in my previous post, a service with Communion, or with an “altar call,” is not going to be that. On the other hand, most churches I can think of believe that Christ calls us to help “the least of these.” How about an ecumenical endeavor that helps a community group like a shelter, a soup kitchen or other organization that needs some responsible volunteer help? Providing simple fellowship activities that help people meet one another and form relationships in a safe space is another un-loaded way for churches and other faith groups to work together; Sunday evenings are usually no-meal nights on college campuses, so arranging an ecumenical meal — maybe with a movie or other entertainment activity to go along with it — is actually providing a practical service to undergraduate dorm dwellers, in addition to providing hospitality. Let people bring their own friends; let friendships develop on their own; create the space that makes it easier for people of faith to invite others into their own faith community, without feeling the need to pound theology into participants’ heads in the context of the ecumenical event. But to do that you will have to be okay with the possibility that un-/under-churched participants are going to wind up at that church down the street, not yours, or go away without a “sales pitch” (which in my own tradition wouldn’t happen anyway, for theological reasons)…you have to let go of outcomes.

Kelc and Steve,
I don’t think that the answer is a lowest common denominator approach, and I don’t think anything goes. But I know that the infighting and turf wars hurt us seriously. We need a positive Christian presence on campuses.
Perhaps groups could partner on things like Care giver kits for AIDS relief, or soup kitchens; bring in a speaker or host an event to start a conversation; Agree to express individual “distinctives” positively rather than negatively.
I don’t know what the answer is though – I think that this is the hardest of the three suggestions I made.

So good to come across conversation regarding John Stackhouse’s “Engaging the University: Student Mission and the Christian Mind.” As a member of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship’s Graduate & Faculty Ministry (USA), I had the opportunity to engage in this diverse, international conversation involving members of the International Fellowship of Evangelical Students (IFES). In general I concur with Stackhouse, my notes/thoughts posted at http://groshlink.net/archives/2007/07/17/the-vocation-of-student-mission
In particular, I place great value on my K-8 Christian education at a small ecumenical school sponsored by a small Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Biology and Religion majors at Grove City College, Masters in Higher Education from Geneva College, various Spiritual Formation Seminars/Classes, regular training/conferencing through InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, and internship with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship at Carnegie Mellon University taken for ministry elective credit.
BUT I find the conversation once again miss a significant concern of campus ministry, i.e., moralistic therapeutic deism, self-actualization/success and even entertainment driven youth ministry which carries over into expectations for young adult (and campus) ministry models. As I post at http://groshlink.net/archives/2006/10/06/evangelicals_fear (among other places), I have found Christian Smith’s “Soul Searching: The Religious and Spiritual Lives of American Teenagers” an immensely helpful resource when discussing the experimentation involved in the transition from high school to young adulthood with youth, parents, youth ministers, pastors, campus ministers, etc.
Simply put, moralistic therapeutic deism is . . . the combination of the Divine Butler and the Cosmic Therapist, a parasitic faith feeding on the doctrines and sensibilities of established religious traditions and expanding by mutating their theological substance to resemble its own distinctive image. Each one of us, but particularly parents and those in positions of teaching authority w/in the Body of Christ, carry responsibility for debunking Christian Moralistic Therapeutic Deism and indwelling, articulating, and teaching the Biblical narrative in our home, community, school, etc… Such a mission, directed by the Father and fueled by the Word and the Spirit, involves a critique, filtering, and alternative cultural framework to the media driven consumeristic society of our day from cradle to grave.
This is a concern for the larger Body of Christ and there needs to be more conversation and partnership in local, rooted ministry (taking advantage of and paying the cost of ecumenical/cross-cultural partnership/resources) across all life stages. That’s already too much. After the Final Four, I’ll post some additional thoughts at the Emerging Scholars Blog, http://blog.emergingscholars.org

Tom,
If I understand you (and I am not quite sure) I think I agree …

RJS, Had the opportunity to read your earlier posts. Wish I had been keeping up w/Jesus Creed (but alas I’ve been chasing 4 girls who I’m introducing to Lent, reading too much of the Chronicle of Higher Education, chatting w/various Christian scholars in the Mid-Atlantic, preparing for our local congregation to partner with InterVarsity’s Graduate & Faculty Ministry in bringing Andy Crouch to share about “Culture Making,” and working w/the Emerging Scholars Network, http://www.emergingscholars.org)!
Before I go further, thank-you for exploring some good material well. The bottom line to my above comments (#29) is that “Education, Discipleship, and the Future” begins at a young age and is nurtured by the Word and the Spirit in family, peer groups (note: Gordon Smith at a recent InterVarsity Graduate & Faculty Ministry Conference pointed out the primary importance of parental peer groups for the faith development of youth), and various ministries of the people of God(including some interest/age specific, general/intergenerational).
As such, the countercultural nature of ministry among 5th – 12th graders (in USA) is particularly important. Some activities should be of an inviting outreach focus, but we must not forget to root all activities/events in the Biblical story given whole life application. The primary witness flows from the daily life of the youth as they are sent back into the neighborhood, school, and possibly even the family as followers of Christ part of a local community committed to Word, Spirit, and Life of ‘the Kingdom of God.’
Much of my undergraduate ministry at Carnegie Mellon University (1996-2000) involved re-evangelization among those ‘born and raised’ in the Church, but not receiving/embracing/living the whole Gospel. If the students came to college with a firmer grasp of the Gospel, that would change the face of campuses, campus ministry & campus ministers. Note: I just introduced an undergraduate at state university to Christian Smith’s “moralistic therapeutic deism” the other week and he couldn’t believe how accurate it was in describing his faith before coming to Christ several weeks ago through the ministry of InterVarsity Christian Fellowship. We were meeting because his philosophy professor was antagonistic to his faith and the undergraduate staff person thought I would be a good resource. We chatted all afternoon before taking part in an intergenerational conversation of Andy Crouch’s “Intersect Culture” at the local congregation of which I’m a member.
As for my experience with graduate students [not in the masters degree professional programs (since 1996)], those attracted to my work have been young adults returning to explore questions they did not have addressed by Sunday School educators at any early age. A number with whom I labor have skipped or not fit into age specific ministry models since middle school and skipped college ministry (or found a unique ministry/staff person during their undergraduate education). Except at some local congregations near major universities, graduate students and faculty rarely seem to have opportunities at their local congregations to delve into the in depth questions which perplex their minds, not to mention in their vocation. Gotta go. In Christ, Tom

Tom,
Since you’ve read the earlier posts now you likely have an idea of my perspective. As one who has been grad student, scholar, faculty, all I can do is emphasize the significance of your comment:

Except at some local congregations near major universities, graduate students and faculty rarely seem to have opportunities at their local congregations to delve into the in depth questions which perplex their minds, not to mention in their vocation.

One consequence here – is a disconnect, and for some, an unwillingness to walk away, but a desire to stay underground as a Christian. It is not simply a fear of persecution or ridicule, but a deep-seated dissonance. How can one stand up and defend a faith one does not actually understand and a with features about which one has serious doubts? We as a church lose out when there is no space for educated Christians to continue to grow.
On the issue of education and discipleship beginning before college – I agree completely. My kids are 17 and 13 – so in the middle of it.

Tom,
I agree that Smith’s Moral Therapeutic Deism (MTD) still describes a sizable amount of the undergrads we deal with. But it’s not exhaustive. We’ve now had several years pass since that diagnosis, and the landscape has changed.
First, it’s important to note that MTD is the best descriptor for the majority of NON-evangelical students. For evangelical students who end up in Crusade, IV, Navs, etc., deistic is hardly appropriate. Moralistic, culture-warrior, therapeutic, anti-intellectual pietists is probably closer to describing the churched kids who continue their faith practice into college. These kids are not deistic–in fact, they may be too willing to turn off their brain and write off everything as spiritual warfare (including doing badly in a class they didn’t work hard in). They often have a view of God as exceedingly immanent. They may be the first post-charismatic generation of Christians. This is not bad, imo, but it doesn’t come without its complications.
Second, we have to acknowledge the presence of rising agnosticism/atheism among this generation, a development largely since Smith’s study. I went to a gathering of this people group at my university last week. Out of the 50 people in the room, only ONE was second generation. All the rest are churched in some way. I would use the following descriptors for atheists/agnostics:
Moralistic–they are more like Pharisees or “older brothers” than any other non-Christian group. Judgmental and rigid when it comes to everyone else. They have definite rules on what constitutes good and bad. One of the few things we agree with them on is absolute truth.
Therapeutic–they talk at length about their conversion to atheism (they call it, tongue-in-cheek, “coming out”). At the aforementioned meeting, I heard a well-known atheist speaker (a former Southern Baptist) describe the transformation in his life since his “conversion.”
Antagonistic–the militant variety sees it as their duty to wipe out religion and its ideas. They give voice to the much more widely spread belief among virtually all non-Christian students that religion is the cause of all kinds of evil and in particular does not really belong in the world of higher ed.

Steve,
Have you read Scot’s book “Finding Faith Losing Faith”? He has a chapter here on conversion from the faith. It is interesting stuff. This is a conversion – and has the earmarks of conversion, including the sort you mention above. (Doesn’t surprise me at all.)
Th increasingly prevalent view that religion is the cause of all kinds of evil and does not belong in the University is troublesome.

Steve,
Yes, there are “Moralistic, culture-warrior, therapeutic, anti-intellectual pietists” and there have been. There also continue to be “Moralistic, culture-warrior, therapeutic, intellectuals who perceive themselves as pietistic.” As a student at Grove City College from 1992-6, I journied through a number of faith “positions” and met people along quite a range of faith “positions.” But I also found similar students in ‘da Burgh. No doubt students engaged in the culture war on the secular campuses are more vocal and articulate due to the growing training resources available to local congregations, but they have been present in smaller numbers for some time (not to mention associated with particular political positions).
Yes, there is a rising agnosticism/atheism which receives strong support from what Giberson has termed ‘The Oracles of Science,’ http://blog.emergingscholars.org/2009/01/there-is-probably-no-god-ad-campaign/ … This has been prevalent on the graduate school level for some time. Several students with whom I’ve worked, converted to an evangelistic agnosticism/atheism or ‘gone underground’ with their faith in a significant manner.
On the faculty/admistrative level there are plenty who have not found space for conversation in their local congregation/Christian tradition and gone ‘underground’ with their faith and expression of the faith over the years. Part of the issue on campus is the desire to avoid what has been termed “oppressive structures.” Not surprising that the countercultural revolution still finds the structures/traditions/doctrines/history of Christianity an obstacle to self-actualization. Now I’m starting to sound like …
In Christ, Tom

Steve (and others w/interest), Any comments on Christian Smith’s new book “Souls in Transition” and as to whether it ‘brings us up to speed’ with this generation of students? In Christ, Tom