They said to the mountains and to the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the one who is seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?" (Revelation 6:16-17)
Have your own views on the nature, extent, and parameters of divine
judgment in the afterlife changed over the years? Have you noticed a
change in Christian writing about judgment in the afterlife? Is a
lessening of dogma justified?
................................
My thoughts about divine judgment have evolved over the years. My first turning toward God with complete devotion was largely due to my realization that I faced the displeasure of God with as much power to survive as a lone child against a perfect storm. The idea of judgment, then, was at the heart of my discovery of divine love.
In spite of that early comfort with the subject, I see that over the years I have become more vexed with the idea of this God I love bringing wrath on mothers and fathers, sons and daughters -- the tangible people I see.
It may only be my perception, but I sense a lessening of dogma about such things as hell and wrath in religious writings and talk. I could speak specifically of theological trends which gain wider acceptance now than I could ever imagine they would have fifty years ago.
I believe we are right to both doubt and affirm concepts of divine wrath which we can humanly describe and imagine.
That is, we have grounds to doubt whatever we might imagine are the parameters and the measures of God's retribution. Even reading a verse of scripture does not settle the matter because scriptures about retribution are likely to be dumbed down descriptions of notions too intricate for us.
And yet we also have grounds to affirm the ire of the "one who is seated on the throne" and the "wrath of the Lamb."
When we doubt the truth of divine judgment, because we want to let everyone off so easily, we make the mistake of underestimating the potential of humankind. We let people off too easily as if it does not matter that man is capable of so much more.
We tell ourselves that we can understand why so few have faith in God in a troubled world. We make excuses for the pettiness and crime that pervades. But in a deeper place within us we must admit that we know better.
Humankind is capable of sublime literature and storytelling, stunning works of art, and elaborate inventions. This same humankind which discovered the magnitude of space and the near infinitude of the subatomic should be able to arrive at the realization of God. This same humankind which rejoices in literature and stories and movies of bravery, sacrifice, faithful love, and so on, should be able to live better by these ideals.
I am left with the middle ground of doubting any specific interpretation I might hold about the whos and whens and wheres of divine judgment while being certain of the inevitability of it. We all choose which rock we will hide under when the day of revelation comes. I am much more certain of my Rock than of my theories.
My thoughts about divine judgment have evolved over the years. My first turning toward God with complete devotion was largely due to my realization that I faced the displeasure of God with as much power to survive as a lone child against a perfect storm. The idea of judgment, then, was at the heart of my discovery of divine love.
In spite of that early comfort with the subject, I see that over the years I have become more vexed with the idea of this God I love bringing wrath on mothers and fathers, sons and daughters -- the tangible people I see.
It may only be my perception, but I sense a lessening of dogma about such things as hell and wrath in religious writings and talk. I could speak specifically of theological trends which gain wider acceptance now than I could ever imagine they would have fifty years ago.
I believe we are right to both doubt and affirm concepts of divine wrath which we can humanly describe and imagine.
That is, we have grounds to doubt whatever we might imagine are the parameters and the measures of God's retribution. Even reading a verse of scripture does not settle the matter because scriptures about retribution are likely to be dumbed down descriptions of notions too intricate for us.
And yet we also have grounds to affirm the ire of the "one who is seated on the throne" and the "wrath of the Lamb."
When we doubt the truth of divine judgment, because we want to let everyone off so easily, we make the mistake of underestimating the potential of humankind. We let people off too easily as if it does not matter that man is capable of so much more.
We tell ourselves that we can understand why so few have faith in God in a troubled world. We make excuses for the pettiness and crime that pervades. But in a deeper place within us we must admit that we know better.
Humankind is capable of sublime literature and storytelling, stunning works of art, and elaborate inventions. This same humankind which discovered the magnitude of space and the near infinitude of the subatomic should be able to arrive at the realization of God. This same humankind which rejoices in literature and stories and movies of bravery, sacrifice, faithful love, and so on, should be able to live better by these ideals.
I am left with the middle ground of doubting any specific interpretation I might hold about the whos and whens and wheres of divine judgment while being certain of the inevitability of it. We all choose which rock we will hide under when the day of revelation comes. I am much more certain of my Rock than of my theories.
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Derek: what is the Orthodox Jewish approach to all this? I was amazed 10 years ago when a Jewish woman in our bible class (yes, that's right) said that there is no concept of an afterlife. Is that correct? But in Jesus' time, weren't there divided camps, for example the Pharisees believing in a resurrection, while the Sadducees did not? And when I mean "afterlife" I'm talking about a glorified presence in the new heaven and earth.
An old friend of ours that we'd hung out with as a friend, who became a long distance friend, emailed us one day and said he'd become a christian. We thought he already was a christian, he wasn't faking it or anything. But the way he put it is he chose Christ to escape hell and now he takes Christ for relationship. In his eyes the realtionship part had been missing. And when he crossed that line he experienced himself as a christian then. So there is that to be leery of when speaking of God's judgment - that one doesn't become a christian just to avoid hell or whatever, but understands God's desire for relationship too.
When I was working through Romans in Greek, I noted that 1:18 is the only verse that has the phrase "orgn theou" - wrath of God in the whole epistle. I found myself wondering why the translators had added "of God" in other verses of the epistle which only had "orgn". There does seem to be an implication that that the 2nd half of ch. 1 describes both false worship and its product. I.e., the human turning away from God produces inevitable wrath in the vacuum, and the wrath is present in that vice list. (It's as if the wrath and the law are flip sides of the same coin.) Furthermore, Paul used the present tenses in this verse and others.
So, if the kingdom of God is present now (and not yet), it seems to me that scripture makes clear that wrath is not only a "then" concept, but is present now, too. It's The Day (of Judgment) which is the rendering of accounts. It seems pretty clear from 1 Cor. that building up one another is the essential work of Christians according to Paul than building worldly status and material things. The latter may burn, but the builder will be saved "but only as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15) Do these people who built that which won't survive the fire come face to face with ashes of their present lives? Is Paul talking about only Christians in that passage, or anyone? Tough questions which seem to be unanswerable, at least presently.
Mike M:
There is no one Jewish view on all this. There are rabbinic texts which speak of the perfectly righteous going straight to paradise and the perfectly wicked going straight to Gehenna while most everyone spends some time (less than a year) in Gehenna until sins are burned up or paid for.
A lot of Judaism in modern times has been rationalistic, such as the woman you met, and rejected any view of the afterlife. These opinions have more to do with modernism than Judaism. Just as some Christian denominations have abandoned historic beliefs, so too with some branches of Judaism. Interestingly, the trend in Judaism is back to the ancient practices and beliefs.
Derek
All:
I apologize for coming in late on my own opportunity to guest blog for the fabulous Jesus Creed community. I was in L.A. on business until 2 a.m. Friday morning. I took Friday just for synagogue preparation and family time. Oops!
In their helpful book, Hell Under Fire, Christopher Morgan and Robert Peterson note that the New Testament suggests three purposes for hell: punishment (fire will not be quenched), destruction (perish, eternal destruction), and banishment (cast into outer darkness). The images do not always match up for a literal read (darkness and yet fire).
I am left with the thought that we know less than we think we do about judgment in the afterlife. The descriptions I learned in my evangelical training were simplistic and ignored the complexity of the New Testament picture.
Nonetheless, I cannot find safety in these ambiguities about judgment to come. They may be every bit as bad as some of these sermons I heard early on. I know one thing -- I do not wish to play with God's judgment and I do not want to be smug either about my place with God (Jesus never approved of the kind of smug certainty often peddled in the name of the Gospel). I choose to hope for the best, trust that God will do right, and meanwhile repent often and fear the Lord my God.
Derek
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