I have always been a huge believer in the Holy Spirit. The most mysterious of the three part God. Not in pentecostal way, but in a mysterious all powerful way.
If you believe in the Holy Spirit than you must believe that God will or will not judge the quick and the dead. God alone is the answer. I remember a conversation I had several years ago with my Father-in-Law when my local church pastor gave a particularly nasty sermon on the subject. I simply asked the question, ” if a person believes in God, doesn’t the holy spirit deal with this subject, who are we to intervene”. His response was perfect, ” I never thought of it that way, that makes really good sense”.
I recently left my church for a UCC church partially because of this issue. The Church may not realize it but they are driving away not only GLBT person, but many of my heterosexual married friends who refuse to go to church because of this stance and belief that the Church doesn’t have to preach about this.

Sooooo. There is no such thing as absolute truth? What may be truth for you may not be truth for me? This begs the question, “Where does Jesus get off telling someone (anyone, for that matter), ‘Go and sin no more.’” Or am I missing something?
I don’t ask this in bible-thumping exposition. I really do want to know.

Even if there is (and I strongly believe that there is) absolute truth, it doesn’t follow that a human being can know it absolutely….

Bry Leigh
“Or am I missing something?”
Yeah, you are missing the fact that you sin as much as any other person alive today.
GLBT folks wonder why straight sinners think their sin is the kind of sin Jesus won’t notice.

This conversation thus far demonstrates the point Marin is trying to make. That is, the Church (including the gay church) fails to ever help GLBT people find God because they are too busy arguing defensively about whether or not homosexuality is sin. And of course, both sides are not really listening to the other side anyway. So its a fruitless debate. Marin is not saying that such a question is unimportant, only that we need to elevate the conversation beyond that to help people–gay or straight–to simply encounter Christ. And when someone encounters Christ, their life cannot help but be radically transformed.

Karen K,
That’s a good point. I haven’t read Marin’s book, but it sounds interesting. I think you’re right. It’s not about the sin debate, it’s about loving people and showing them the love of Christ. Sorta… Let God do the rest.
I like the B. Graham quote, “It’s God’s job to judge, the Spirit’s job to convict, and it’s my job to love.”

Karen and Kenny I could not agree more.
The power of with makes our job clear: to love, not just because Marin says(don’t get me wrong I think Marin has MANY amazing points but this one he’s just reiterating), but because that’s what we are called and commissioned to do in being Jesus’ disciples. We have no place in judging anyone. By judging and making assumptions about what is or isn’t sin is not our role. In judging and making assumptions, we are attempting to take control over only something that God can define and control. Its not up to us. What is up to us is to follow and love as we are loved.

Bry Leigh-
My dos centavos: “Go and sin no more” isn’t a “Don’t sin or else I’m going to kick your @$$” kind of thing. (Indeed the context is Jesus putting the brakes on an @$$-kicking.). I read it as a “Stop doing this to yourself because it’s self destructive” kind of thing.

J6
“Yeah, you are missing the fact that you sin as much as any other person alive today.”
Kenton
“My dos centavos: “Go and sin no more” isn’t a “Don’t sin or else I’m going to kick your @$$” kind of thing.”
I think you are misinterpreting my question.
As a mother of a gay son, I love with all my heart. As a mother who loves, I want eternity for my son. As a mother of a daughter who commits adultery, I know the depth and breadth of anguish of loving one so precious.
As a sinner, I confess to Christ, push aside the comments of homophobic friends. And have to deal with comments that define love between two males as being the love Jesus calls us to.
And a daughter who claims, “If God didn’t want me to be with him (lover) why does God allow me to love him so much?”
But a PC Bible is not Scripture at all. And, regardless of my sin or anothers’, there are consequences of living in continual sin and claiming it as a lifestyle.
When my son asks me my opinion and then tells me he doesn’t need my prayer as he is doing “Just as Christ commands us – to love,” I find myself faced with Jesus claims: there are consequences. And some of them are eternal.
I know quite well I am a sinner. But I do not hold my sin up in the face of God and claim it acceptable. And although I hold my adult “children” up in prayer and love each day I still have to ask the question, “I REALLY do want to know.” As in constructive feedback that offers a solution and not a judgment.

Bry Leigh,
I think the question is really whether you feel that you can trust God to deal with your child in the way which best provides for his redemption and God’s glory? Do you trust that God can do that without you or do you think that unless you are there pointing out the sin and exhorting your child, that God will be unable to fulfill His good work? I think that a lot of it is letting go. We are never going to change someone or convict them by hammering on about homosexuality. But God can change people and convict them. That is God’s job and we can trust Him to it. I think that this is what Marin is saying: we can’t fix this part of people’s lives and the more we try, the less likely change becomes and the more unloved people feel. So the best thing is to do what we have been commanded and are able to do which is to love. We need to trust God to do the rest – whatever that may end up being.

Point ppl to a relationship with God. Yes. How it is done is up to the Spirit’s leading in our life one by one with each person.

I suspect that if Christ came back and read what we call the word of God, it would be woe to us indeed.
The Bible is full of Christian behavioral inconsistencies, from slavery to stoning your son at the gates to how we treat aliens to those endless debates about calvinism vs. armenism or baptism or communion.
When He tells us that the scriptures boil down to loving God and neighbor, He doesn’t add “except for gays, denominations that ordain women, and Hispanics in search of a better life.”

“”So then why not start peacefully pointing gays and lesbians in the direction of learning how to have an intimate, real, conversational relationship with the Father and Judge…” AMEN!

BBaltrus, you are so right about the church even driving away heterosexuals. Our church won’t even consider someone for membership simply because she has a gay friend and does not want to sign off on our testimony that homosexuality is sin. This individual is very hurt and angry and I fear we may lose them altogether if we will not reconsider her for membership. Mind you, I did not say change our stance but at least be willing to have room in our church for differing opinions. If God has room in His kingdom for those with differing beliefs, why don’t we have room in our churches? How else can we have dialogue if we won’t even allow people to be in our midst where dialogue can happen?

i wonder gays not being welcomed in many churches is the pastor keeping his/her job.

It seems to me that becoming a believer includes brokenness: I recognize my way of doing things/my autonomy/my being the lord of my life = destruction for myself and others/pain broken relationships with others and with God. This is what I want rescued from…those worthless idols (including myself as an idol) and to be turned to the living God through the sacrifice of Christ.
This is reconciliation, first with God, and myself, and then with others. No doubt the reconciliation is an ongoing process but its start is not one where I can declare areas of my life as MINE–KEEP OUT.
I may not know–I do not know the areas of sin not yet revealed to me–but when the Holy Spirit reveals them to me I have the NEED to respond to Him because my mindset is one of reconciliation not rebellion.
To be in known rebellion in some area of life at the very time we are claiming to be reconciling to the Father is a rejection of the cross of Christ.
Humble myself in the sight of God and He will lift me up.

I’m not certain who said it, but the phrase,”Listening is not waiting for your turn to talk!” Seems appropriate for this conversation. Sadly enough, Bry seems the only one with any credibility to speak to the situation.

In our attempt ot be “loving” and “accepting” are we missing the concept that God not only speaks in a “still, small voice” internally through the Spirit but that He also speaks to us through the voice of other people (yes, even via preaching, though that is not mainly what I have in mind here)? Prayer and love are both vital but isn’t also the spoken word?

Rebbecat is on target.
The Bible says that God demonstrated His love for us while we were yet “sinners;” and, makes no distinction as to which sin we are predisposed. The evangelical church, however, portrays homosexuality as a particularly heinous, and perhaps unchageable, sin. We all have many sins from which we need to be delivered. That is, as Christians, we need to live as faithful, obedient servants of God, who are transformed day-by-day in our relationship with God. Jesus said He did not come into the world to condemn the world (unto judgement) but to seek and save the lost (John 3:17). Perhaps our primary role should be to show non-believers our Savior and Lord; and, pray and trust God will call many to salvation for His glory.

Bry-
I’m praying for you and for both of your children. Indeed, I did misunderstand the tone of your question, and thanks for filling in the detail.
If I can go back to my last response, I still don’t (or should I say, I “no longer”) believe in @$$-kicking Jesus. I don’t know how that works out. I haven’t redacted any of Jesus’ words of judgment in Matthew or anywhere else, and I haven’t gone PC with my bible.
His judgment is always about bringing restoration and He loves your children more than we can possibly know. He longs to see them completely (and this includes sexually) restored. When they go astray it breaks his heart too. But, have faith. He will restore your children.

Bry Leigh,
A thought… Find yourself and your children (sure, they may choose not to go with you at first or ever) a church that welcomes gays. I don’t know if any evangelical chuches do-any comment?- but the UCC church does, my UU church does, and some Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, and Episcopal churches do, and there may be others. I think you will find support, love, understanding and community at such a church and so will either of your children if they choose to join you. If for some reason you can not join such a church, attend some of their functions as a friend.
Doug

As a Jewish and gay believer in Messiah Yeshua, I followed your comments with interest. Some of you may be horrified to learn that I live with my partner in a committed and monogamous relationship. And some might find it impossible to believe that there are spirit-filled, Bible believing followers of the One our prophets foretold so many years ago and who are gay. I attended a Reform synagogue for many years and was a closet believer in Yeshua. When I finally plucked up the courage and confessed my faith in Him, I was asked to resign as member of the synagogue. After many months of trauma, I found a Messianic assembly – however, when they found out that I was gay, I was asked to leave.
Many of you may not appreciate what it means to be cut off from one’s community. To be told ‘you are no longer a Jew’ is very painful. But I count it also a tremendous blessing to suffer for the One who is our Lord and Saviour (Moshiach).
Shalom to all seekers of truth!

Bry, find a 1 Cor 9:11 church where Christians, called out a myriad of sins, exhibit a repentance for sin, a love for God, a hunger for righteousness, a desire for His Word rightly taught and preached, and obedience and submission to Him. Be assured, persistence in prayer and patient endurance through the trials of life demonstrate true faith (James 1-2). May God richly bless you and your children.

Bry #9: I know quite well I am a sinner. But I do not hold my sin up in the face of God and claim it acceptable.
That is why the argument “We all sin, your sins are just different” or “We all pick and choose our sins so who are you to judge this sin as worse than yours” is a straw man.
I like the idea of “with” and I respect that Marin has a lot of work and thinking behind this. But I wonder if “transcend the argument” doesn’t actually become “concede the argument.” If “with” means there is no longer a discussion at all, then the discussion has not been transcended, just declared passe and off-limits.

Bry,
As the gay son of devout conservative Christians, I know a little about the struggle you are engaged in with your children. Families with lgbt children work things out in a number of ways.
You might want to watch the movie “For the Bible Tells Me So,” which looks at some of the ways that some Christian families cope with this struggle. Not every family in the movie ends up joining a PFLAG chapter and/or marching in a Pride parade. Some families are simply unable to accept the choices their adult children make, and their stories are told as well.
I know that the journey you are on is lonely and very frightening. If nothing else, Marin’s book opens up a door for a new kind conversation within the church, and hopefully you will find support and encouragement in the dialogue.

I really appreciate this series, the discussion, and I’m looking forward to reading Marin’s book.
I have been a committed evangelical Christian who have spent a good number of years trying to be healed/delivered from homosexual desires. A series of recent events led me to stop pretending I can turn heterosexual and instead ask more searching questions.
I remember asking God if He was disappointed with me or if I have messed up, and the immediate voice (which is so characteristic of His mercy) was, “I am the God who bottles your tears.”
This is the power of “with” exemplified by God Himself.