Points 1, 2, 3 & 5 sound very much like extremely subtle code for hanging onto the believe that being LGBTQ is a sin and that the new approach to conversion will be (instead of conviction, reeducation and conversion) to love them until G-d makes them see that they’re wrong and they turn away from their LGBTQ-ness with point 4 thrown in there to make het people feel like they’re being loving by “leaving it in G-d’s hands”.
I believe the parable of the splinter and the plank is the only principle we need for constructive conversation.

Re Jim #1, I think of course you’re right about “subtle code”. If homosexuality is not a sin, there’s really no need for “constructive conversation” is there? Christians don’t need to engage left handed people in constructive conversation, nor red heads in constructive conversation. And a big dose of “splinter and plank” attitude would help immensely. Nevertheless, humility and a contrite heart aren’t code for not naming sin and failing to call one another to repentance.
To me, a huge principle here is from 1 Cor 5. We are to exercise judgement inside the household of faith, we have no business judging those outside.

Jim & Drew-
You sound more “for” than “with.”

BTW, I scored this book last night at Half Price Books. Woo-Hoo!

Kenton, thanks for the smiley. Actually I’m one of those “holding on” to the teaching that homosexual lifestyles and acts are sinful. AND, I feel like the crucial conversation is actually INSIDE the household of faith. Our conversations and friendships with anyone who is LGBTQ should be the same as our conversations and friendships with greedy materialists, adulterers, liars, those who disrespect parents, etc. Salted with grace, full of love. When asked, a clear answer for the hope within us, for we were the same. And are still removing the planks from our own eyes!

I’m waiting for “Consumerism Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation With America.”

Thanks, Dru, and sorry I misspelled your name earlier. Rereading #2 more carefully, I see that I was too quick to put you in the “for” bucket. My apologies.

Dru, what of those who profess to be within the household of faith who also are GLBTQ? Is it not possible for any practicing GLBTQ person to also profess a faith in Jesus Christ and actively involve themselves in the life of a faith community? I know, very well, that I am a prideful sinner who loves Jesus, yet my pride doesn’t stop Jesus’ work from covering me.

Joey, now to me that is the crucial question. And needs a relationship based talk not just a blog comment, right? But here’s my short version. For any “prideful sinner” including me in the church, I believe there are two possible paths. When I’m willing to walk in the light, acknowledging both my sin and my helplessness, to a trusted few in my church, then my church can and will protect me. They can love me, confront me, pray for me, help me, accept me, refuse to let me make excuses, etc. They can protect me from Pharisees on the warpath, from Job’s counselors, etc. They can patiently walk the path of repentance and life change with me.
But if I choose to hide in darkness, refuse to acknowledge my sin as sin, refuse to trust others with me and my sin, or make my sin a public spectacle, then we need to protect the church from me. a la 1 Cor 5. At least until I come to my senses and come home, again. That’s just a real short version of how I see it.
I’m counting on Jesus’s work covering me, too. Let’s both hang on to that. And it’s a covering that is meant to free us for transformation, from the heart out, right?

Dru, points taken. That begs the question then, who is responsible for changes in a person’s life and heart? What is the role of community in that change? I’ve learned, through working in ministry, that the best thing I can do as pastor is to provide an atmosphere in which people can encounter and engage with the living Christ, but it is not within my power to change a person’s heart. I can teach, admonish, love, and hope with people but I can’t force them into my understanding of morality in any genuine way. I’m not suggesting that you think so either. Can people have a real genuine relationship with our creator and be involved in the life of a community and not immediately address all of the ways that they are broken? Isn’t it God who changes the heart? How can God change the heart if his chosen vessel, the church, isn’t allowing those who need changed to enter and participate?
These are all assuming that GLBTQ are morally wrong positions, and that is a different conversation – one, like you suggest, best had face to face as brothers and sisters in Christ.

Thanks Joey, thoughtful return. I see our role as you do, and my hope is that increasingly we can answer your other questions with a “yes!” The role of a loving community of forgiven people is the too-often-overlooked “third way” to resolve our “personal” dilemmas.

Sometimes we walk a road, sometimes we take a stand.
We are all on a journey in our Christian “walk.” We don’t become completely patient or joyful or loving or self-controlled in a day and stay that way. We gradually grow in these fruits of the Spirit. And sometimes we take a step backwards or fall down but dust ourselves off and try again. Same for many, many issues in our Christian walk.
But sometimes we do have to take a stand. I don’t know how to say this without sounding inflammatory. I don’t mean to equate gay actions with abuse, just using an example. If a dad in my church were physically abusing his family, my patience with him would soon wear thin and I would take a stand for his family. Joey described creating an environment where people encounter Christ and realizing we can’t change people. However, sometimes we do take a stand.
It seems possible that Marin has carefully worded his thoughts to allow for both walking and standing. I don’t know when to do which, frankly.

Something that irritates me is when it comes across that we’re gracing them with our friendship so to get to a place where we can “witness.” I just did it but it also bugs me when we see them as “them’s.” We have to watch our mindframe, making gays “them’s.”
One of the message in Romans is that we are them. We all sin multiple times in each day. Walk with a gay because you really are interested wanting to have them’s want to be friends with you. Don’t get involved in the life of a gay, with the lifestyle, using them as project, to get them “saved.” Be friends with a person living the gay lifestyle because we’re genuinely interested in them as a person we want to be friends with the person. Stop viewing “them” as “them’s, and instead see “them’s” as us.

All good, but for me no. 4 and 5 are the biggies. Releasing control and allowing God to be God in other people’s lives. If we believe His power and sovereignty, we must trust that He can and will bring to people’s lives that which they need.

“How can God change the heart if his chosen vessel, the church, isn’t allowing those who need changed to enter and participate?” – Joey, AMEN! That’s what we’re currently struggling with in our church. Allowing people who may not embrace all of our beliefs to even have a seat at the table.

FYI: Nicholas Kristof’s OpEd piece today has some bearing on this conversation and on Marin’s approach: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1

Matthew, what bothers me about your statement is that homosexuality is in no way similar to abuse (I realize that you didn’t equate the two). Yes we must take stands, especially when somebody is subjecting somebody else to harm. We can’t equate homosexuality with something like that. What about homosexuality necessitates immediate and authoritative action, or “taking a stand”?

I am fascinated by this debate and appreciate the valuable contributions, even if I passionately disagree with some of them. I have no intention of trying to convince anyone of my position, but I would point out that our emotions play a huge role in forming opinions, which we then base on ‘facts’ (e.g. scripture for instance). Some of you have been so indoctrinated to traditional evangelical interpretation of the six passages that appear to condemn homosexuality, that it is (emotionally) impossible for you to even consider that there may be a valid yet different interpretation. I take the Bible very seriously. I am a Jewish believer in Messiah and happen to be gay. I am now in a committed, monogamous relationship with the most wonderful man who also loves Ab’ba with all his heart.
I was married (to a woman) for 15 years and have been a spirit-filled believer for many years. I wish that this issue was as black and white as some of you would like to portray it, but it isn’t. I nearly lost my mind and suffered from clinical depression for over 20 years. I finally came to admit that I was born gay and that G-d does not hate me and that He has a plan for me. Since living with my partner, I have never been happier and, by the grace of G-d, I still see my children and remain very good friends with my ex-wife.
There is so much that I would like to share with you, but of course, space is preventing me from doing so. I am a member of Evangelicals Concerned, a group of gay (evangelical) believers who reach out to all those rejected by their pastors and churches. Some have chosen celibacy and others have chose to be in a committed monogamous relationship. There is an authentic (Messiah centred) spiritual world out there that some of you know nothing about.
In closing, for those of you who are at least emotionally able to be challenged, I would like to recommend two books, written by evangelical believers: “Stranger at the Gate” by Mel White and “Exchanging the Truth of G-d for a lie” by Jeremy Marks (hi Jim… is he related to you? – another fellow Jew ).
Shalom Aleichem in Messiah Yeshua!

Joey,
I don’t pretend to have all the answers and I don’t think that all cases do demand such a stand. Perhaps most cases call for walking with, not taking a stand. But I wonder: is sin ever victimless? I think that a part of the nature of sin is that it will end up creating victims one way or another. Avigdor’s winsome post above illustrates that not all believe gay acts are sin. But I do believe it is sin, therefore I think it will in some way create victims. And for the sake of those victims, it may be necessary in some cases to take a stand. I don’t know the hows and whys, to be honest. I believe a gay neighbor or co-worker deserves the same respect and grace as anyone else. The tricky part for me is when it comes to working together in church. But that leads to various side-tracks from the over-arching discussion in view here.
I believe church should be a safe environment where someone can confess they struggle with this and people will walk with them. Unfortunately, the church is often not a safe place for this discussion and that is a shame. I respect Marin’s efforts to be involved with the people rather than just the issue. Marin is making an effort to elevate the conversation between two groups who would otherwise be entrenched and I do not oppose that.
This is a different thought, but a picture came to mind. I wonder if elevating the conversation could in any way be compared to the Christmas truce of WWI? http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm The analogy would break down, the worst way being that the war simply resumed. Still, I wonder if there isn’t some comparison there.

God loves all people. The scripture in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 make it clear that continuing in sin will not allow a person to enter the kingdom of heaven. WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. w k