Andrew Marin's life is devoted to ministry with and to the GLBT community, and his approach to them is one of love, and his hope is to elevate the conversation. In the 7th chp of Love Is an Orientation: Elevating the Conversation With the Gay Community
Andrew proposes the "big 5" principles for a constructive conversation. These Big 5 move us out of the "yes vs no" debate to the power of "with". What do you think of these Big Five?
1. To shift each person's mind frame away from the thing things that bind our yearning for anything else but God (Mind-Frame-Shift principle; Gen 19).
2. To bring each person to their own crossroad of belief where they make a choice to live distinctly for God or not (Crossroads principle from the holiness code).
3. To recognize from that choice what positively or negatively affects an individual's onenss with the Lord (Oneness principle; Rom 1:26-27).
4. To know when to release control of someone else's life (1 Cor 6:9-11).
5. To keep an open path for God to accomplish his will for a person's life, even until their last breath (Think-Big principle, 1 Tim 1:9-11).
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FYI: Nicholas Kristof's OpEd piece today has some bearing on this conversation and on Marin's approach: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1
Matthew, what bothers me about your statement is that homosexuality is in no way similar to abuse (I realize that you didn't equate the two). Yes we must take stands, especially when somebody is subjecting somebody else to harm. We can't equate homosexuality with something like that. What about homosexuality necessitates immediate and authoritative action, or "taking a stand"?
I am fascinated by this debate and appreciate the valuable contributions, even if I passionately disagree with some of them. I have no intention of trying to convince anyone of my position, but I would point out that our emotions play a huge role in forming opinions, which we then base on 'facts' (e.g. scripture for instance). Some of you have been so indoctrinated to traditional evangelical interpretation of the six passages that appear to condemn homosexuality, that it is (emotionally) impossible for you to even consider that there may be a valid yet different interpretation. I take the Bible very seriously. I am a Jewish believer in Messiah and happen to be gay. I am now in a committed, monogamous relationship with the most wonderful man who also loves Ab'ba with all his heart.
I was married (to a woman) for 15 years and have been a spirit-filled believer for many years. I wish that this issue was as black and white as some of you would like to portray it, but it isn't. I nearly lost my mind and suffered from clinical depression for over 20 years. I finally came to admit that I was born gay and that G-d does not hate me and that He has a plan for me. Since living with my partner, I have never been happier and, by the grace of G-d, I still see my children and remain very good friends with my ex-wife.
There is so much that I would like to share with you, but of course, space is preventing me from doing so. I am a member of Evangelicals Concerned, a group of gay (evangelical) believers who reach out to all those rejected by their pastors and churches. Some have chosen celibacy and others have chose to be in a committed monogamous relationship. There is an authentic (Messiah centred) spiritual world out there that some of you know nothing about.
In closing, for those of you who are at least emotionally able to be challenged, I would like to recommend two books, written by evangelical believers: "Stranger at the Gate" by Mel White and "Exchanging the Truth of G-d for a lie" by Jeremy Marks (hi Jim... is he related to you? - another fellow Jew :-) ).
Shalom Aleichem in Messiah Yeshua!
Joey,
I don't pretend to have all the answers and I don't think that all cases do demand such a stand. Perhaps most cases call for walking with, not taking a stand. But I wonder: is sin ever victimless? I think that a part of the nature of sin is that it will end up creating victims one way or another. Avigdor's winsome post above illustrates that not all believe gay acts are sin. But I do believe it is sin, therefore I think it will in some way create victims. And for the sake of those victims, it may be necessary in some cases to take a stand. I don't know the hows and whys, to be honest. I believe a gay neighbor or co-worker deserves the same respect and grace as anyone else. The tricky part for me is when it comes to working together in church. But that leads to various side-tracks from the over-arching discussion in view here.
I believe church should be a safe environment where someone can confess they struggle with this and people will walk with them. Unfortunately, the church is often not a safe place for this discussion and that is a shame. I respect Marin's efforts to be involved with the people rather than just the issue. Marin is making an effort to elevate the conversation between two groups who would otherwise be entrenched and I do not oppose that.
This is a different thought, but a picture came to mind. I wonder if elevating the conversation could in any way be compared to the Christmas truce of WWI? http://www.firstworldwar.com/features/christmastruce.htm The analogy would break down, the worst way being that the war simply resumed. Still, I wonder if there isn't some comparison there.
God loves all people. The scripture in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 make it clear that continuing in sin will not allow a person to enter the kingdom of heaven. WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE. w k
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