Jesus Creed

Jesus Creed

A Painful Letter and Request

posted by Scot McKnight | 6:03am Monday July 6, 2009

I got this letter last Friday, July 3d, as a comment on a post and I want to post it today to generate a conversation. What is your advice?

Dear Scot,

I’m not a Christian and don’t intend becoming one. However, my children are and I get the distinct impression that they think they are somehow above me, better than me. They push me away because I refuse to convert.
 
This is one of many reasons that I have an absolute aversion to Christianity. In my experience (all 55 years of it) they have no respect whatsoever for any other faith except their own.

Advise please!!! 



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Michael Neumann

posted July 6, 2009 at 7:34 am


I’m so saddened by your story, and am sorry that this has been your experience of Christians.
As I read the NT the Jesus I see portrayed is a humble man who while professing to be God did not lord it over those around him.
I have heard Jesus’ approach to people described by the twin adjectives ‘invitation’ and ‘challenge’. Sometimes Christians loose sight of the invitation aspect of the Jesus approach and err on the side of challenge, perhaps even going so far as manipulation (as it sounds in your situation).
There is something compelling in the way that Jesus treated people, both those He was trying to reach out to as well as those who hurt him. Why not read Jesus for yourself and perhaps allow Him to teach you how to ‘invite’ and ‘challenge’ those that are hurting you?



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Rick Cruse

posted July 6, 2009 at 7:48 am


I have grown to appreciate Greg Boyd (pastor, author) over the past several years. In his book “The Myth of the Christian Nation,” he underscores the radical difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of the world, reflecting how much of the principles of the latter have permeated the former in the US church. One key difference is that KOG is always “power under,” power used (with great humility) to serve, a “one-up” dynamic. With KOW, the power is always “power over,” a “one-down” relationship. As mentioned, the US church has done a marvelous job of reflecting KOW more than KOG. If I weren’t a believer (and leaving out, for the moment, the marvelous work of the Spirit) I doubt I would become one in many of today’s churches.



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Diane

posted July 6, 2009 at 9:14 am


As I read this post I was listening to a piece of music called “Jesu, the Very Thought is Sweet”, on a compliation by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir call Consider the Lillies.
“Consider”, invitation, challenge. I couldn’t agree more with Michael Neumann. The Jesus of the Gospels is humble, repectful of human dignity and freedom. How very sad that Christian voices so often bear no resemblance to His.



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pds

posted July 6, 2009 at 9:17 am


Peeling Dragon Skin
That’s a common impression of all Christians. It is really sad if it is true. But I am curious to hear the kids’ side of the story.
I would encourage the writer to talk to his/her kids and ask them. The person said, “I get the distinct impression that they think they are somehow above me, better than me.” He/she should ask tell them that is how he/she feels and ask them if it is true.
I find that there is actually more judgmentalism outside the church than among the believers I know.



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freelunch

posted July 6, 2009 at 9:28 am


I find that there is actually more judgmentalism outside the church than among the believers I know.
I think you just disproved that by implying that the letter writer was not being honest in the question.



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Dan Masshardt

posted July 6, 2009 at 9:43 am


Any Christian who thinks they are ‘above’ or ‘better’ than anyone else doesn’t really understand Christianity very well. It is so easy for us to forget the gospel and think that we’ve earned something.



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pds

posted July 6, 2009 at 9:56 am


freelunch (#5)
I think you just provided some evidence to prove my point.
My comment has nothing to do with the “honesty” of the writer. It has to do with jumping to conclusions and misunderstandings.



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Lance

posted July 6, 2009 at 10:00 am


Christians can be cruel.
Among the cruelest.
We forget, in our excitement to share this awesome gift, that instead of showing off what we have, perhaps we should just enjoy it. Not like the birthday kid with a brand new bike, parading it up and down the street, but as the gift was given. And not like the kid who wants everyone to try it out ’cause it’s such a cool ride, but as the gift was given. Sooner or later people will see our joy and wonder what’s going on. And some people won’t.
Forgive people like me who haven’t quite learned how to walk the fine line.



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reJoyce

posted July 6, 2009 at 10:38 am


I just finished reading “unChristian” by David Kinnaman and Gabe Lyons, and they talk about the different impressions people have of Christians. Both of the things your letter writer mentioned are included: we’re better than you and we’re on a mission to get you saved. So, I’d say this person’s experience is not unique, unfortunately.



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John L

posted July 6, 2009 at 11:17 am


This is what happens when we confuse salvation with achievement.



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freelunch

posted July 6, 2009 at 11:33 am


Motes and beams, pds, motes and beams.



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Rick Cruse

posted July 6, 2009 at 12:03 pm


One thing I find interesting in this (and other) blog discussions; how we can go after one another (sometimes graciously, sometimes not) but are, for some reason, unwilling to use real names.



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mike

posted July 6, 2009 at 12:11 pm


How old are your kids? My father is a muslim and is one of the best people I know. When I was in high school I started to think he knew nothing because he wasn’t a Christian. To be fair, I was in high school and, though my mom was/is a Christian I didn’t think she knew anything, either. I said a lot of heart-felt but ignorant things to my dad – partly (mainly, I think) because I wanted him to know what I was experiencing, partly because I wanted his approval, and partly because I wanted to beat my dad in an argument. My dad treated me with far more respect than I showed him and treated me with dignity I didn’t deserve, but because of it, we have as good of a relationship as any father and son I know.
Years later, he still isn’t a Christian, but if I become half the man he is, I’d be pleased.
I don’t want to make excuses for Christian triumphantialism, only to say that my father and I made it through a hard period, and that I hope you and your children do too.



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craig v.

posted July 6, 2009 at 1:31 pm


As a pastor, this is the most common complaint I hear from non-Christians. I think we need to listen to it. I don’t think the problem is merely that some are overzealous. It’s deeper than that. We have adopted some ways of thinking about our faith that are offensive. A casual look at our lives will reveal that we’re not the experts in marriage, parenting, education, science, philosophy and living that we project ourselves to be.



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pds

posted July 6, 2009 at 2:43 pm


Peeling Dragon Skin
My main point is that you don’t stop the cycle of judgmentalism by continuing the cycle of judgmentalism. My second point is that genuine dialogue is often a good first step.



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dopderbeck

posted July 6, 2009 at 2:49 pm


This is an interesting and difficult letter. I’ve been a Christian for over 30 years, and I could say to the letter writer that, unfortunately, there are too many folks like those he describes in Christian churches — in fact, many Christians think they’re better than other Christians for any number of reasons. Indeed, I’d have to admit I’ve been that kind of person myself far too many times.
But, I’ve also spent plenty of time working in “secular” organizations. I can say without hesitation that I’ve never experienced love and concern in any law firm or other organization I’ve been part of like that which I’ve experienced in the Church. I know people in the Church who’ve made amazing sacrifices to serve others at home and in desolate parts of the world, for which they’ve asked no reward. I’ve wept with people in the Church over jobs, children, health, and the myriad troubles of life, in ways that I’ve experienced nowhere else.
It’s absolutely and sadly true that the public face of Christianity in America — at least that which seems to gather the most press — can be angry and reactionary. But I’d suggest that this is not the day-to-day life of what many or most of us who follow Jesus experience.
Maybe the best advice would be this: be open to friendship with a Christian at work or in your neighborhood, without expecting that he or she will live up to all the highest ideals you have for what a follower of Jesus should look like. Maybe you’ll eventually see a community of human beings who really are in the process of being transformed into people who seem more like Jesus.



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Karl

posted July 6, 2009 at 2:59 pm


I agree with pds. Judgmentalism is a human trait that Christians are sadly not immune from. Dialogue about what the writer is perceiving from his/her young adult kids is a good place to start and will at least help determine whether the kids’ judmentalism is as real as it seems to be, or whether the parent is reading something more into the kids’ words and actions than they intend.
If you believe that the claims made by historic Christianity are true not just “for you” but for everyone whether they acknowledge it or not, and if you want your parents or friends to be in relationship with Jesus Christ and participate as knowingly and fully as possible in his kingdom . . . then there will be those who perceive you as judgmental no matter how gently you try to talk about those things. At the same time, there are plenty of Christians who aren’t gentle at all, and whose attitudes are offensive.
There isn’t enough info in the letter to know which end of the spectrum this situation is closest to. But the writer’s pain and frustration is obvious, and I hope for healing and restoration and understanding in his/her relationship with those kids.



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Pat

posted July 6, 2009 at 3:17 pm


As painful as your experiences have been, please know that not all Christians are that way. Some of us accept people for who they are regardless of religious beliefs. To form an opinion of all Christians would be to form a stereotype that is not true. I believe that centuries of teaching by well-meaning people have allowed some Christians to believe that they cannot associate with people unlike themselves. However, that is far from the truth and the longer we live and study the life of Jesus as presented in the Scriptures, He was a far cry from shunning those unlike Him. On the contrary, those are the folks He spent much of Him time with. So, give us a chance. Regardless of the picture presented to you by some Christians, we are flawed people like everyone else. My prayer for you is that you would meet some good, down-to-turn, humble Christians with whom you could enjoy genuine acceptance.



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Pat

posted July 6, 2009 at 3:20 pm


That last comment should have read “down-to-earth, humble Christians”. :)



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James

posted July 6, 2009 at 3:57 pm


I could so easily imagine one of my parents writing this… so I thought I’d respond with something that’s hopefully helpful from that perspective.
In a post-Christian culture, we have a great many people who think they know a whole lot about what Christianity is and what a Christian should be, that is completely off the mark. I say this by way of echoing what others have said before… ask your children if your perceptions are correct, but go even further. Challenge your assumptions by asking them to explain what is going on with them and why in very simple and fundamental ways. Ask them why they think Christ is the way the truth and the life. They’ll be happy to tell you and it should at least help you share common language.
It’s entirely possible that the children are being judgmental. Many converts go through a fairly difficult upheaval when changing their worldview. That difficulty can express itself in many ways. They should be graceful, patient, and humble to those around them, including you, but becoming that way is a process. It is not instaneous.
There’s are other possible sources of your reaction. Are changes in your children indicting you? Perhaps in finding a loving community, they are not so ready to accept an abusive home? Maybe they are rejecting things that you used to do together that are harmful to self, like drunkeness or drug abuse? Because they no longer do them with you, you feel like they are judging you? Perhaps it’s just as simple as the belief in Christianity itself? Clearly you have rejected that and they have not. Did you raise them to reject Christianity or religion and general, and feel that because of this they are rejecting you?
I’m not guessing any of this at you, but they come to mind as real possibilities (from real life examples). While I hope the best, and that true intentions and understanding are being sought, someone who casts their own children negatively on a public blog should probably start searching the mirror before trying to fix others.



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Steve A

posted July 6, 2009 at 4:25 pm


I think this relates to problems talking about truth claims. If someone believes that “A” is true (really, universally true, not just “true for them”), then talking about A with people who believe “not A” can easily feel antagonistic, even if it is not meant to be. If they also believe that A is of supreme importance, then it is very easy for those discussions to become fraught with all kinds of issues. If at the same time the other folks carry their own baggage about why A poisons everything, etc., then the opportunities for poor communication abound.
My advice to the writer is to talk to the kids, share his discomfort, and try to see their interest as evidence of love for him, even if he isn’t perceiving it that way. I’d also encourage him to read a gospel to see what Jesus was like (according to the gospel, at least!) just to have some additional context for discussion with the kids.



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Unapologetic Catholic

posted July 6, 2009 at 5:51 pm


The letter writer observes: “They push me away because I refuse to convert.”
Steve A correctly also observes: “If someone believes that “A” is true (really, universally true, not just “true for them”), then talking about A with people who believe “not A” can easily feel antagonistic, even if it is not meant to be. If they also believe that A is of supreme importance, then it is very easy for those discussions to become fraught with all kinds of issues.”
The solution is to stop talking. Make no effort to convert relatives.
“Preach the Gospel always. Use words if necessary.”
If you “need” words to preach the Gospel, then you’re not doing it right.



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ChristSpeak

posted July 6, 2009 at 5:53 pm


The thing I find interesting here is that this non-Christian wrote to a Christian about this problem. Is he actually asking for advice, or just venting about his problem?
Ultimately, I think his issue is with Christianity, and the kids issue is one sub-problem he is using to bring up the topic. So it may be the best approach to come at this primarily as a evangelistic answer (using the kids as a conversation starter). After all, if it was just the kids he was worried about, he would have asked a secular psychologist or friend how to take care of it. The fact that he asked a Christian means that he isn’t focused on the kids so much as the problem of Christianity.



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2009 at 1:19 am


This makes me wonder how old his or her children are. I say that because as a Christian with non-Christian parents and extended family, I can certainly say about myself that I have handled the Christian/non-Christian issue in my family much better in my mid to late 20s than I did in my teens and early 20s. I have discussed this in the past with friends in similar positions who have expressed similar things about their own experiences.



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