Jesus Creed

Missional Mondays: Tony Stiff

Monday November 2, 2009

Categories: Missional
Tony Stiff is a graduate of Westminster seminary, a friend, and a solid young thinker -- and he will do a four part series for us on "Missional" theology and Bible reading. I look forward to this series and I...
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Comments
Phil
November 2, 2009 2:52 PM

I haven't given Newbigin much thought directly, but as to the question "What happened?" A few things:
1. A desire for moral legislations, from prohibition, scope to Roe vs. Wade, if we make it illegal people will stop doing it. We don't properly address our own sin, let alone everyone-else's.
2. A truncated gospel tract.
3. No mention of the Kingdom. For the first time in my life I have an impetus to moral living outside of being scared of hell. It's difficult to do the right thing for 70 years if you believe everything else around you is getting worse (just as God promised).

I think the Kingdom, and a more robust eschatology is making a huge difference today.

Tony Stiff
November 2, 2009 3:32 PM
http://setsnservice.wordpress.com

"No mention of the Kingdom. For the first time in my life I have an impetus to moral living outside of being scared of hell. It's difficult to do the right thing for 70 years if you believe everything else around you is getting worse (just as God promised). I think the Kingdom, and a more robust eschatology is making a huge difference today."

Me to Phil. Thanks for that. I totally resonate with what you're saying. Eschatology as something that isn't just a blueprint of the end but is rather a shaping force in the present for the sake of God's Kingdom makes all the difference in the world. Your thoughts reminded me of a wonderful article Scot wrote for Christianity Today a while back called, "8 Marks of a Robust Gospel."

Scot said in that paper, "The little gospel promises me personal salvation and eternal life. But the robust gospel doesn't stop there. It also promises a new society and a new creation." Too many of us live out of that little gospel, huh.

John W Frye
November 2, 2009 4:11 PM
http://www.jesustheradicalpastor.com

If Jacques Ellul is correct in observing that the church absorbs the culture it is in as a sponge absorbs water, then the demise of the church in the West results from adopting an assembly line mentality for theology and spiritual formation (which comes down to the creation of "programs", including "a missions program"), the reduction of weighty biblical realities to "steps," "laws" and "principles" (see assembly line above), and the franchising of Christian ministry. Churches are no longer local; they are trans-global, e.g., my pastoral friends in Ukraine trying to live out "the purpose driven church"--a Saddleback, CA creation. Church in a box.

I think we still have many who, like the ostrich, are hiding from the "situational shift," hoping for the good old days.

dopderbeck
November 2, 2009 5:52 PM

Great post! And Phil (#1) -- great comments, with which I agree.

I want to add at least two:

1. a strongly foundationalist theology that paradoxically is fearful and reactionary of the broader world of Truth

The Church's failure to think creatively about the relationship of faith and science -- which thankfully is beginning to be remedied -- IMHO is Exhibit A in this regard. We became irrelevant because we were stuck with a 19th Century model of the world.

2. A lack of any theology of hope.

Again, this is starting to be remedied as evangelicals gravitate towards the eschatology of folks like N.T. Wright, and realize it's ok to read non-evangelicals such as Newbiggin and Guder. We're only now starting to emerge on a broader scale from the "Late Great Planet Earth" mindset.

Paul Sheneman
November 2, 2009 8:09 PM
http://discipleshipremix.com

2. What do you think caused the church to lose its presence and influence in the West?

It seems that the church (we) took three different but dangerous politics in the West which added to our demise.

1. Some took up an isolationist politic and insulated themselves from the "world" that they knew was going to hell in a handbasket.
2. Some took up a liberal politic in order to have a conversation in the same language as their opponents.
3. Some took up a militant politic (verbally and/or physically) in order to defend the faith.

Thank you to all for such helpful comments and insights. I am learning a lot!

Jason R
November 2, 2009 10:13 PM

I believe the enlightenment had a transforming impact upon the west which resulted in the fall of "Christendom" (which may not be that bad a thing). Secondly, the Western Church became inward focused. While we sent missionaries "out there" to do mission we turned in on ourselves at home. Third, during many of the years that the church held considerable influence over government/society we didn't put our best foot forward. That is we were not church in a way that was modeled on Jesus. Fourth, the postmillenialist "liberals" thought we could build the kingdom on earth through social progress, while the premillenialist "conservatives" believed the world would get worse and worse prior to God's returning. In this way evangelism and working for justice were rent asunder and the church became entangled in infighting that alienated many.

Patrick
November 3, 2009 7:29 AM

Thanks Tony for your post and helpful link:
"Where do you most feel the Post-Christian condition?"
Every culture in the West will experience this slightly differently. I was talking with a Swedish theology teacher recently who described how there is talk of detaching removing theology, and denominational seminaries, from the university realm. This in a country with all its Lutheran heritage and legacy of state church.
I live in a country that was one of the most intensely "Christian" cultures in the world (Ireland). I feel the 'post-Christian' condition in deeply negative attitudes to Christianity. The church is 'bad news', it limits personal freedom, it stifles life, it is about obligation and rules, it protects its own interests, and given a chance used power for its own interests. I think Newbigin said that the West is the toughest mission field since Christianity has been 'tried' and found not to work. That's my take on how many people see it here.


Phil
November 3, 2009 8:13 AM

Thank you Tony and dopderbeck for interacting with my comments. I did in fact miss one and that is the evangelical tendency to equate a modern worldview with a Christian worldview. With that there is a strong reaction with science, using scientific method, etc, but not really "getting it", both culturally and academically. All in all the person in the pew and many pastors just don't understand worldview's (theirs or others) and don't have the ability to see the situation critically. I think popular writers like Dan Kimball are doing a great job with that interaction.

Tony Stiff
November 3, 2009 2:50 PM
http://setsnservice.wordpress.com

Thanks everyone for contributing to this conversation. I'm learning so much from everyone's comments.

Patrick thank you for sharing an Irish perspective. I'm stateside so I can see how my countries context, particularly in our cities, are growing more and more post-Christian. But to hear your story and what you've observed is really helpful and humbling. Thank you.

Patrick
November 3, 2009 6:17 PM

Thanks Tony,
Reading back my comments seem very pessimistic! There are signs of hope, especially in these sorts of discussions. Maybe we can pray that out of brokenness will come a healthier, humbler, missional church.

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Scot McKnight is a widely-recognized authority on the New Testament, early Christianity, and the historical Jesus. He is the Karl A. Olsson Professor in Religious Studies at North Park University (Chicago, Illinois). A popular and witty speaker, Dr. McKnight has given interviews on radios across the nation, has appeared on television, and is regularly asked to speak in local churches and educational events. Dr. McKnight obtained his Ph.D. at the University of Nottingham (1986). Click to continue reading Scot McKnight's Bio...

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