The single-most important problem for the logical coherence of the Christian belief in God is what Christians have believed about hell -- that God will punish humans endlessly for their sins. We are approaching this topic through Gregory Macdonald's book The Evangelical Universalist
. Big question: How do you account for the justice problem? How do you account for the joy problem?
There are two fundamental problems for those who believe in hell as eternal, conscious torment.
First, the justice problem: hell is understood as retributive justice meted out by God against sinful humans. The problem here is that the punishment must fit the crime in order for the punishment to be just. What possible crime could be matched by an eternal punishment?
Two responses have been given in Christian theology: Anselm's theory is that sin against an infinite God is an infinite sin and therefore worthy of infinite punishment. [I would argue that humans cannot by nature ever commit an "infinite" sin because humans are finite.] A second theory, and he quotes DA Carson (who once told me this very theory when we were having lunch together), is that humans continue to sin and so punishment fits the crime because the sinner in hell keeps on sinning. "Macdonald" contends that this means God never really removes sin from the universe ... and so he explores other options.
Second, the joy problem: "To have supremely worthwhile happiness, I must be able to know about the genuine fate of those I love and remain happy" (15). The fundamental problem here then is the capability of eternal bliss and joy and supreme happiness while knowing the fate of those we love who are in hell or knowing the fate of other Eikons of God. "Macdonald" contests the "memory-wipe" theory of Bill Craig that contends God will erase the memories of the saved of those who are in hell [and "Macdonald" contends the position is deceptive on God's part] or that consciousness of God's utter blessedness will render a person unaware of those in hell. "Macdonald" thinks awareness of God makes one more aware of the fate of others. The other theory is that the saved will join God's side of satisfaction with the fate of those in hell because they will see the utter rebellion of their sin.
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Benjamin, "MacDonald" is in quotes because the name is a pseudonym. The real author of the book is unnamed.
I'm not sure you can simlpy discount Anselm's infinite sin idea because we are finite. The object here is God, not us. Sproul once called sin "cosmic treason". And that it is. Seen that way, surely there is a difference between me betraying a friend, and betraying my country. One destroys a relationship, the other is worthy of death. There is a huge difference based on who you commit treason against. As for the "joy problem", though I see the point, remember, it was you who conceded that we are finite. I'm not sure that there aren't just a few things we won't get our heads around in this life. Paul says, "consider it all joy when you undergo trials and suffering...". How joyful were you the last time you suffered? Can you get your head around that, honestly? Yes, the "joy problem" is real, but you are venturing into territory that might just be beyond our ability to understand, at least this side of heaven.
Oops... In the post above I was thinking of Romans 5:3 and refered to James 1:2. My point is the same, though I'm embarrassed that I attributed the rereference to Paul!
I think, there is one more (and more important for me) problem: eternal torture means that evil still exists, cause even just torture is an evil thing.
Scot observed the all over the map nature of this conversaion. I'm glad that our salvation doesn't depend on our belief about heaven and hell!
I resonante with Richard in #41.
It has been helpful to me to distinguish between civic/punitive justice and biblical/restorative justice. (Both are part of the biblical story.) Civic justice -- imaged by the blindfolded woman holding the scales -- is a justice that "is blind" to prejudice and metes out a fair and exact punishment for crime. It harkens back to "an eye for an eye", and as a basis for helping to maintain law and order in a society, civic justice is a useful, important thing. As a citizen, I can be glad it exists and equally saddened when it is miscarried. And it is important to note that under civic justice, a punishment "pays" for the crime and the exchange has a sense of completion.
But God's justice, what I think of as biblical justice, doesn't settle for punishment. God's aim goes WAY beyond a fair punishment for a crime -- all the way to FULL well-being, complete wholeness (shalom). The arch of the biblical story, I think, shows us a God who relentlessly acts to restore all of creation. At the center of that "shalom endeavor story" is Jesus' life, death and resurrection.
Biblical justice is an eyes-wide-open, fully-seeing-everything justice (which is Good News, actually), yet unconditionally, unendingly and relentlessly loving until there is an eventual and full restoration. It is a Justice that loves us/all enough to become God-with-us -- for-giving Godself to us "while we were yet sinners."
That said, I confess that reading about justice in the bible is like an optical illusion for me: I "see" this restorative justice.....and then I don't! But, when I can glimpse it, and hold on, it forms the basis of my hope in a compassionate eschatology -- a universal reconciliation of all souls and all creation.
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