Interesting stuff. Unfortunately, the McLaren interview link seems to be missing!

Marc, it should be up now.

Jodi’s blog is great. I agree with her completely, but I still felt some conviction to adjust my own rhetoric. As another American living abroad, I’m also reminded of the old saw about Christian ghettos…We need to get out of our American ghetto and experience the world through other lenses.
Freda Donoghue’s statement about where the Catholic church needs to go was particularly eloquent as well. I think we’d all do well to remember it. I’m also encouraged with the recent statements by the pope and hope we’ll begin to see some serious change. The Roman Catholic church represents all of us, even if we’re not Catholic.

Jodi brings up some good points, but only from one side.
For example,
“I have yet to hear from a conservative what should be done…”
Their views are available, for example-
http://blog.heritage.org/2010/01/22/morning-bell-conservatives-deserve-a-voice-toward-real-health-reform/
The tone from both sides needs to be calmed down, and accusing conservatives of being selfish and uncaring is no better than calling Democratic leaders “socialists”. The problem is that Jodi, and increasingly the Jesus Creed blog as well, does not want to shine the light on both sides. “Third Way” goals possibly seem to only go so far.

Interestingly, mandated insurance coverage, the centerpiece of Obama’s plan, is a Republican idea. But since Obama proposed it, they had to be against it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/27/republicans-were-for-obam_n_515743.html

Rick, I wish you would not try to excuse death threats, bricks through windows and overt racism by saying 1) that the liberals are doing it, too and 2) it’s just “tone.”
I haven’t heard of any Democrats spitting on civil rights heroes, threatening to assassinate their representatives or pushing their state to secede from the union. But you are welcome to post a link.

Jjoe-
Where did I try to excuse the racism, threats, and violence?
Nice try with that straw man.

Is it just possible that what’s happening in the US is fear run amok? We’ve lived a dream, the dream of ever onward, ever upward. Change comes – but gradually and predictably. Now, however, we’re moving into uncharted territory; the old maps don’t work well; the changes taking place are of an entirely different sort. Perhaps, the charges and counter-charges (from and against both sides, all sides) are, in fact, simply the cries of frightened people. And frightened people often respond in anger.

Scot, it’s interesting that you link to Jodi’s post as an example of “getting it.” Does she “get it” because she shares your views of the words “socialism” or “Europe?”
Does she still “get it” when she uses negative rhetoric herself? Does she still “get it” when she dismisses the concerns of many of us about the European style health care model that often results in long waits (years, sometimes) for medical procedures by saying, in effect, “So you have to wait, many wait all their lives?”
Jodi complains about someone saying she’s become “too Swedish” as being a negative put-down. Really? Folks do that all the time about Americans and calling us “too American” is one of the more charitable comments! Or does it just cut that way because it’s being said about Europeans, which we’re now not supposed to do?
My concerns aren’t about Jodi’s views – good for her for posting them. They’re about Scot’s holding this out as a model of “getting it.” Maybe I’m not ‘getting it,” but it seems to be a double standard.

Rick — If someone was a pastor, and two members got into a heated argument over, say, theology, and one member then threatened to kill the other, would the proper response be “The tone from both sides needs to be calmed down”?
If a teacher had two students arguing, and one spit on the other and called her a racist name, or threw a brick through her window, would the proper response be “The tone from both sides needs to be calmed down”?
All this talk about toning down the rhetoric over “selfish” vs. “socialist” is just obscuring the real problem. I don’t care that I’m called a socialist. I care that we’ve got angry mobs acting like it is Birmingham in 1963, with congressman getting death threats because they had the audacity to vote for health care reform.

Jjoe-
During this health care debate, when did a leader of the Republican Party threaten to kill (or call for the killing) of a member of the Democratic Party?
During this process, when did a leader of the Republican Party hurls racist insults?
You seem to be confusing the actions of some extremists with the position of a political party (sounds like something Keith Olbermann would say).
Christine #9-
Well said and my concerns as well (something I touched on in #4).

Christine, thanks. I think Jodi gets the there’s too much rhetoric and not enough reality. I don’t think I meant to agree with everything she said, but I think she gets it when it comes to the inflammatory rhetoric and the lack of measurable differences. From the European perspective, Obama and Bush are not far apart == from their view, both are conservative economists and politicians.
Rick, but I do give lots of voice to conservative economic voices. Michael Kruse is hardly a socialist.
My biggest complaint, and my Third Way angle on this, is that we Americans are putting too much trust in the government and not enough in Jesus as Lord.

Scot-
Your point on Kruse is well stated, although I certainly was not implying that the atmosphere here had become “socialist”. I am more concerned about the portrayals of certain sides (motives) of various issues.
“My biggest complaint, and my Third Way angle on this, is that we Americans are putting too much trust in the government and not enough in Jesus as Lord.”
Amen. Now that sounds more like it! :^)

Beck, Limbaugh and Palin are the leaders of the Republican party, those extremists are the base, and everyone else moves in lockstep or faces the wrath of the mob. It’s why the party has moved from the party of Buckley to the party of angry white men.
Don’t get me wrong. I used to be a very conservative Republican libertarian type, but Bush and the lack of intellectual thought drove me away mentally, while spiritually my conversion to Christianity changed my worldview about the quest for money being the best platform for society (while seeing too many good people get screwed by big corporations chasing quarterly earnings).

Great quote from Jodi – “this sense of collectively caring for one another has gone woefully by the wayside in the US. And this is not socialism by the way. It’s plain and simple caring about your neighborhood. It’s one of the things I love about Sweden…people don’t mind giving back a little more in order to create a greater good for all.”
Well said. My generation, the Baby Boomers, is the first generation in this country to get so focused on self and away from the common good. Our heroes used to be public sector leaders and private sector leaders who used their gifts and success for the common good. That is the best of this country. Now we have heroes like Donald Trump! The HCR bill was not how I would have liked it in the end, but it is a move to take the power away from insurance execs who make millions off denying people who are actually sick.
We have to challenge the power of corporations today, and I say that as someone who is not for big government but very pro-business. We need to shift back to consuming from and investing in businesses that are for the benefit of society. Business should exist for the flourishing of life, not for making money as the primary value. And that particularly true in healthcare.
I love Gergen’s quote:
?People will wake up one morning and realise that the healthcare bill hasn?t brought socialism to America,? says David Gergen, adviser to four former presidents. ?And Democrats will wake up to realise we have not magically solved all our healthcare problems. People should calm down a little. There has been a tendency to exaggerate recently.?
And Scot – I think you do a great job trying to engage both sides. Though I do think the posts on economics fall heavily to the current Republican thought.

Jjoe-
“those extremists are the base”.
I disagree with you. Limbaugh and Palin may heavily lean in one direction, and you and I may disagree with them on many things, but to call them extremists is going a little far. Beck on the other hand, maybe. However, extemists are not the base (unless one comes from a far left (extreme?) mindset- Olbermann, Maddow, Huff Post, etc…).
It is funny you mention Limbaugh. I used to listen to him years ago (when his show 1st went national) and came to see how he would demonize liberals/Democrats. No matter their position on something (good or bad), there was some sinister motive that he (Limbaugh) would assign to them. He did not provide proof, just accusations on the “true” motive. Because of that (as well as other things he does), I have since rarely listened to him since.
I hear that same tone in this debate. Both sides, I repeat- both sides, have elements that are demonizing the other. Some are using the “socialist” excuse, others the “extremist” excuse. Neither providing evidence for the harsh claims. Either way, it is just like Limbaugh. I am deeply troubled over that.
As Christians, rather than demonizing others, we should lead the way in focusing on the issues at hand, looking at ourselves in the mirror, stop demonizing everyone on the other side, condemning racism and violence and those who specifically call for such actual actions, condemn those who actually want to limit freedoms, etc…
In short, our third way should be clearly showing how to love God, and love others.

http://jibstay.blogspot.com/2010/03/fruit-of-spirit-self-control.html

photo credit?
http://jibstay.blogspot.com/2010/03/fruit-of-spirit-self-control.html

Scot,
I appreciate the link to the interview with Brian. I wonder how you would respond to Brian’s comments about your review? Like him, I was surprised by how dismissive you seemed of ANKOC. In the review you seemed to call it all old-school liberalism dressed in only a facade of “newness”. But, as Brian points out, there are many ways his positions defy typical “liberal” points of view – on scripture, on resurrection, etc. And, in that way, I felt your review fell short of your usual commitment to fairness and clarity.

Jjoe:
Take it from me, you don’t want to follow modern “intellectuals.” They are usually wrong. During the 1930s and 1940s many were sycophants for Stalin, and some still trip over themselves to kiss Castro’s hand. For a modern intellectual, Gitmo is wicked but what goes on under the regime on the other side of the island is to help advance “social justice.” This is one of the many reasons I drifted away from liberalism over the course of my career. I find this mindlessness insufferable.
Having said that, I do agree with you that the conservative movement does seem bereft of intellectual voices. But, then, I have two questions: (1) Who are the great liberal minds of our time? Keith Olbermann, Nancy Pelosi, Tom Harkin? (2) Did you know that most popular conservatives, such as Palin and Limbaugh, are the children of Hayek, Burke, Hazlitt, and Friedman. They speak a language fully informed by a generation of conservatives shaped by the great conservative thinkers. The responses to them speak of a real deficit of liberal thought. Instead of dealing with their arguments, you get the “angry white men” meme and other assorted nonsense that distracts rather than illuminates. From my vantage point, it seems that liberalism is far more shrill and devoid of sense compared to the lunacy of Glenn Beck (that man, indeed, drives me mad!).
Frank