Sounds like it was a powerful experience. It reminds me of when I saw the Vietnam War memorial for the first time. In response to your last paragraph, I agree that just leaving would be a bad idea, but staying for an undefined length of time is even worse. I also think we should be careful not to fight this war out of ideology including rhetoric of leadership. Although it might not be glamorous, leaving the conflict – “giving up” as the war hawks would call it, certainly beats thousands of more lives lost in vain.

I think we have responsibility to and in Iraq, but neither leaving nor staying by themselves are a solution. My frustration throughout this war is that fighting it thoughtfully and well seems not to be an option under this administration. I’ll continue to pray that under Gates and Petreus, the good that needs doing will be done.

I think those numbers need to be taken in perspective. Many of the horrifically wounded in this war would not have survived in any of the previous wars, so the fatality numbers are much lower, while the injured numbers are much higher and the injuries much more life altering.

World War I was the first modern war. Great Britain lost 1/3 of its young men and approximately another 1/3 were damaged in terrible ways. The horror of that war lingered to the point that there was a real reluctance to address Hitler in the thirties. The young men and women are returning from Iraq – and they see through the rhetoric presented by both left and right. They know that they have been patriots, defenders, and murderers. All wars produce such a product. There are no pure battles – just brutality among young people that is presented by the winner as magnificent or glorious. When weapons can do the terrible things that our weapons can do – war simply cannot ever be a moral alternative again. Chris Hedges wrote a magnificent book about the seductive nature of war (from the point of view of a war correspondant)) – entitled “War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning”. I recommend it to anyone who is sure that war is right or wrong. It is a realistic view. Another issue is the changing psychology of war. The military psychologist and theorist, Lt. Col. David Grossman (ret), who wrote “on Killing- the Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society”. I would suggest either book for those interested in seeing the nature of war in a very realistic light. Those young men and women who have died in every war are like human sacrifices – giving our children to Molok – that we see condemned. Finally, God gave his own son – to be brutally killed – and that is what it looks like – every single time. Nothing noble, just brutality. We must find another way.

I didn’t have to see the Vietnam memorial. My father was one.

God gave his own son – to be brutally killed – and that is what it looks like – every single time. If God did it that way, then I think it is up to Him to end wars once and for all. He has promised us that, but until then there will be ‘wars and rumors of wars.’”The name under which pride walks the world at this moment is the perfectibility of man, or the doctrine of progress; and its specialty is the making of blueprints for utiopia and establishing the kingdom of man on earth.” Dorothy Sayers, Letters to a Diminished Church The right way is the Way of the Cross. It is laying down one’s life for one’s friends. For some the battle is physical…for some it is spiritual. For some it is both. But if our Savior is coming back for a final battle to overcome evil, I for one, will not attempt to find ‘another way.’ I am a woman, but my family is filled with military men going back to the Revolution and up to the present day. Every night I lay down beside an ex-military man who fought in battle. Sometimes there is no other way than to fight to the death.

Perhaps you might looks at the pacifist tradition of the early church. Those closest to the events realized that any sort of reciprocal violence would not be of Jesus. Only when the church and government came together did Christians begin to justify warlike violence again. I come from a tradition of military families also. To say that there is no way except to fight to the death – my goodness – it denies the God Jesus taught us about. God is taking us to a sense that non violence is the way of living together. There are moments in which a violent response is the only thing available to us and yet we are capable of greater and greater violence with less and less return. Martin Luther King was certainly willing to die (as a non violent person) and did – at the hands of hate and bigotry. War is an anachronism – it no longer is between soldiers, but always destroys the innocent. The Catholic church lists several criteria for a just war. This war meets non of them. We can lie to ourselves and pretend it is, but it is not. The rest of the world knows that and we are so arrogant, so filled with our own untruth, we cannot see it. We are hated and despised for good reason and yet – our soldiers – these amazing young men and women – continue to believe in the nobility of their country. there is a giant disconnect. I suspect these magnificent young men and women will not come back home ready to continue such tasks and will not want the same for their children. Young soldiers, men and women are running for office all over the country and precious few support what has happened the last 6 years. The seriously injured would have died in any other war – our medical system has moved ahead. I suspect our death rate would be closer to 10,000 without the medical art practiced by trauma surgeons. How would we be then? I suppose just war can still exist, but I do not see how. The weapons are too brutal, the methods too uncaring of the innocent, our cause too filled with untruth and aggression.

Please note, Thinker, that I said “SOMETIMES there is no other way than to fight to the death.” We are hated and despised for good reason… We are not in a popularity contest; we are in a battle for western civilization. it no longer is between soldiers, but always destroys the innocent.The innocent have always suffered during war time. This time around, it is the enemy who exults in murdering innocents, hiding among them, etc. I suppose just war can still exist, but I do not see how. Then you must have some major disagreements with your Lord.

In the eleventh chapter of The Acts of The Apostles, we find the first schism in the Church where the other apostles believe Peter has blasphemed and Peter explains himself to the others, they listen and reach an agreement. We also have the final commandment from Jesus, to love one another as he loved us. Isn’t it possible for us to speak to one another without judging one another unfit to serve Him, even if we can no longer reach agreement?

Gretchen, I have taught peace studies at a university level, Christian theology and scripture and spent many years as an ICU nurse dealing primarily with trauma injury. In other words, I’m not talking about of a lack of experience, prayer or scholarship. Studying military theorists is also part of my work. Many of them say the same thing that I am saying. My relationship with God is my business, but is the primary relationship in my life. There is a big difference between the way God was perceived in the Old Testament and the way that Jesus tells us about God. It is a gradual awakening that we receive from God. God is not violent – we are – and that is what Jesus tells us over and over again. Trying to humiliate one another on a blog is simply silly and not worthy of our faith. Words written on a page tell us nothing of one another, but I suspect we all serve this Jesus.

Doug said, Isn’t it possible for us to speak to one another without judging one another unfit to serve Him… Can you explain that? I’m not sure to whom or what you are referring. Thinker, I have not tried to humiliate you, but have bluntly disagreed with your perspective.I do not see a fundamental difference between the God of the Hebrew Scriptures and the God that Jesus revealed to us. I do believe that God is love, but there is clear evidence of that all throughout the Bible, and not only through the Christian Scriptures (NT). And, if you can bear it, there is abundant evidence throughout the Bible that speaks to the consuming fire of our righteous God when it comes to the enemies of His people.I appreciate your life experiences. They are unique and no doubt have added to your perspective. I just happen to disagree with some of your conclusions.

War is not an individual venture. It is a governmental one. The Apostle Paul writes in Romans 13:1-4″Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Rom 13:2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, Rom 13:4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.Jesus Himself tells us in Matthew 10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.Lastly, if Jesus was a pacifist as some make Him out to be, then why did his disciples carry swords with them? Do you recall in the garden of Gethsemane, Peter drew his sword and cut the ear of the servant of the high priest?The issue at hand has not to do with the morality of war, it has to do with the administration of the war effort.