The Religious Right Derby

My sense as a former small-town boy and bible-belter is that underlying a lot of the resistance from religious and rural people is to being thought of as ignorant rubes. Your book captures some of that. Many of those who assumed that electing someone who spoke the language of the Church have to be disillusioned. I'm not convinced that all the voters who have backed the current regime will be thinking the same way in 2008. A lot of us have learned a lot since 2000, including me. I think the Republican candidates should take care not to be too focused on winning the 2000 Republican primary. That goes double for McCain.

Actually, the more I think about last night's debate, the spookier it gets. There were literally no people other than middle aged white guys there. No African Americans, no Hispanics, no Asians, no women except wives. Now, as a woman who has watched the world go to hell under such leadership, there is something profoundly wrong with such a scene. I'm talking about the audience - it was almost eerie in its homogeneity. Now, was that because the camera never focused on anything except these dudes? don't know. I just know, the more I watch - the creepier it gets. And I have to say - it was totally unexpected. I knew the candidates were all the same, just didn't expect it of the audience.

Shocking, the number of candidates on that debate that don't have clue about evolution. What's up with that? Do we really want those guys managing science policy and placing belief above empirical data? It would be more of the same past seven years...

When did you become so cynical, snide, bitter and odd?

LDS is a cult and believes a lot of stuff that can't be true. However, the new testament is full of things that I know can't be true and that I don't believe. Do I think all xtians are in some sort of weird cult? No, just some of them, including all the people who write off a significant part of human life (gay people) because of something in the old testament while ignoring lots of the other things in leviticus that don't upset them as much anymore. xtians tolerated slavery for way more than a thousand years, had slaves, sold people. I guess they were just doing JC's will, eh? Not that it matters any. I just wish those people who basically just hate gays would admit that it is really all about somebody having a sex life they personally disapprove of. I don't think Jesus will judge them that way myself. But, what do I know? I think lots of the NT was made up to suit Paul's prejudices and ideas and had little or nothing to do with the Essene teacher you call Jesus, but who called himself Yeshua.

LDS-ism, teaches that "their" god (his name is Elohim), the one in charge of Earth, and the very same god that had sexual intercourse with Jesus' mother Mary, lives on a planet near a star called Kolob. Thanks for your insights Donny. That would explain Romney's love for L. Ron Hubbard. You are my ideological opposite but I'm not ashamed to admit that you're right in this and other instances. Good post.

Thinker, and pals, Evolution, is THE MOST cruel idea ever. Death and killing mean the next best thing. That is "evolutionary" fact. It is not survival of the cutest and fluffiest. Evolution also makes homosexuality a worthless condition to possess. The Bible-writer view of gay sex is that it is repugnant and deviant behavior. Physiology and biology would prove that. I guess you can't have logic and progressive/secular/humanist beliefs connected. On that Infidel is correct. Most people are non-believers. Try seperating the chaff from the wheat. You get a lot of stuff not wheat. A far more majority. Not everyone that says "Lord, Lord," says jesus, is a Christian. The Zerotheists are a great majority in reality. But notice how many non-god believers believe in the real nonsense and goofiness. O x ) equals atheism. Doesn't exactly give it much worth now does it. I'm a rare Christian, in that I see many styles of non-believers as hilarious to watch fumble around in society. An athiest can rant on about religionists, and all the time have nonsense as the foundation of his/her existance. It is funny if you think about it. Laugh it off and go to Church. Here's more Myth from asbjorn: Christians "hating" homosexuals. What a crock. Paul mentions that many people that hailed from this sexual proclivity BECAME Christians in his day. Nothing has changed, except that certain kinds of sneaky people have changed the truth for a lie. Jude is the one that calls out these false teachers that have wormed their way into the Church. Homosexuality is a physical act. Nothing more nothing less. A vandal can stop breaking things. A person can stop other behaviors too. Rational thinking does not escape the Christian mind. Read the New Testament. It is logic from beginning to end.
Yeshau means God saves. Jesus is the word used today for Yeshua. In english we should be calling Jesus, Joshua. No matter what modern name we use, God is the ONLY Savior. So "He" says. Bouffant,
I do not think Mormonism is funny. It is very seriously wrong though.
And thank you for providing the apocalypse style hysteria of the GAIA-Global Warming prophets of doom. Just another religion packaged in the lies of the secularist. See folks, "testing all things," is not painful at all.
Now how does "instinct" go from one species to a different one, when the parameters of survival would be so different fom "change" to another?

I love God, and Jesus his son. They gave me the heart, the soul and the mind to know when something is of their doing and something is a misguided effort on the part of humans and their sinful and egocentric nature. What I see today in the religious right is an arrogant, small minded, man-centered religion, selfish and focused on gaining money and power, fixated on magic and mythology instead of the logical brain that God gave us. And I simply do not believe that Jesus would do anything other than oppose this new, ugly form of Christianty, much like he challenged the way his own religion had become hurtful of its people.
First of all, I believe God, through Jesus, commanded us to love one another, and through that love, seek to ease the suffering we humans simply cannot seem to stop forcing on each other. That's basically it: Love, and do everything it takes to keep your heart and mind loving, and your actions loving also. Everything else falls into place when we do these things. I Lovingly believe (if you can call it believe, for it is not an expression of faith) strongly in the theory of evolution because as a scientist, I have studied it and know that it is actually part of God's plan for us, that it is the best way for us at this point in history to make sense of our world, and without the incredible gains in knowlege we have made under evolutions concepts we would have no science to save us from our own human stupity;
Furthermore, as a result, I have nothing but Love and compassion for gay/lesbian/bisexual and transgendered people, who I know from my studies in biology are exactly what they were born to be. They are not perversions, just different, and in their existance God offers us an opportunity to love in spite of our own fear of difference. They are human beings who deserve nothing less in life than what their heterosexual brothers and sisters are promised in terms of the fruits of love, committment, and family; I Lovingly believe it is wrong to force choices on others about whether they should be mothers, as it is free will that God gave us that defines us from the monkeys. I believe that if we work to love and cherish our children and our sisters, help them find the very best in life, and find ways to prevent unwanted or unhealthy pregancies, abortion will become a thing of the past;
I believe God, in his mysterious work, provided us this beautiful planet, with all nature has to offer, as a place for us to come into communion with him. As such, we should Lovingly work to preserve and defend it with all our might, lest we lose our ability to connect with Him in the one true "church" of all time. Further more, I would never be able to support a leader for my country who believed in this ugly, hate and fear infused "neo-fundamentalism" that I see is at the core of the Republican Party today-- or even worse, one who did not believe but feigned it in order to garner 15% of his party's vote and a huge tub of cash for his campaign--or to become Vice President.

Elmgee, To break down your political action speech, we see the same old tired promotion of (of course) evolution and the resulting need to force others to believe in 0 x 0 equaling something, that the design of the human body can be violated if one is born with an aberrant brain, and that abortion for sexual freedom is somehow consistent with Biblical or even evolutionary logic, rationality and reason. Same old Molech worshipping social cause pretending to have anything to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Evolution violates physics, abortion vioaltes survival of the fittest, and homosexuality violates the human body. Um, you're a "scientist" how? You have gotten one thing right (correct) though. God through His Son Jesus Christ, did give you your heart, soul and mind. Noe start using them.

Jake, o x o cannot equal the known and unknown physical universe.
Like it or not, the "typical" Darwinist/Evolutionist says there is no God and everything happened by "random" processes. Accidental bumbs in the dark? The foundation of evolutionary "facts." That is laughable.
Physics is the science of matter and energy. The interaction of both.
Take your pick. Neither one come about by accident, or accidents. You're going to need a few more billion years, in fact an endless supply of them to get enough accidents to cause the universe. In fact, it's just fairy tale or delusion this mythology called evolution.
The passages usually thrown around about the opposition to homosexuality of the followers of God are far more than "six" to the writers of Biblical works. let;s just take Hebrews 13:4 and 5. Marriage is not to be defiled by adultery or immorality.
Same-gender sex is considered immorality with no doubt to the writers of the Bible.
Then let's look at Jude. Chapter 1 verse 3 through 7.
There were dihonest people that "slipped in" to the Church and led people into false beliefs. Jude mentions the obvious sexual immorality of Sodom and Gomorrah, and that people will use their sneaky position in the Church to change the truth for a lie. These men knew the words of Jesus. His teachings on marriage, adultery and divorce are NOT at all silent about homosexuality. That particular sexual behavior is never supported, encouraged approved of. Isn't it interesting that food was mentioned in quite a few places in the NT, but no one ever gave sexual immorality a treatment of the same license. You in fact, cannot find even a hint of the inspired writers approving same-gender sex acts to be engaged in by believers. Let's look at 1 Peter. First chapter verses 13 through 16. Peter is teaching that we should not embrace or conform to the evil things of the world. All of the western world is now embracing same-gender sex acts as acceptable. "The world" that is.
Again, it is clear that the writers of the NT present that same-gender sex acts - as all immorality is - are unholy acts. If you will, would you please offer ANY scripture anywhere in the New Testament that even remotely mentions approving of same-gender sex acts? Since we know what Jesus said God made men and women for, I think you'll have a tough time.
Now, I am presenting that people that try to promote same-gender sex, are false teachers. People mentioned time and again by the Apostles and of course Jesus before them. It can be easily proven. No scripture supports them. They always have to call on a new and "liberal" appraoch to the texts. Always changing or altering reality for a lie.

Rudy supports public funding of abortions. Yikes! Chat at:
http://osi-speaks.blogspot.com/2007/04/unbelievable-giuliani-still-wants-to.html

Donny, Donny, Donny...Why, oh why, can not you not muster just a little bit of respect in your discussions? Jake was not challenging you, he was asking you a question. He was not challenging you, in fact he was merely asking for details, yet you respond as if he were viciously attacking you. Why not take the opportunity to educate him in a respectful, instead of sarcastic and haughty manner?
As for your post...I didn't notice homosexuality in any of the passages you cited. But then again I don't read the Bible literally and I recognize it was written to reflect a certain culture-one where homosexuality was in fact punishable by death (out of curiosity, do you favor that?) Unfortunately I have found this is a stumbling block that we cannot get past...if the book was written by God (or through men inspired by the Holy Spirit) then we have nothing to discuss. On the other hand if there ARE errors in there...well, you know where I'm going. Of course there are no Scriptures endorsing homosexuality. And of course for biological reproduction it is neccessary to have a male and a female. Perhaps you could educate me on how to dispute that. What you can't seem to grasp is a more modern approach that can see the fact that two people of the same sex can love each other and have a healthy relationship, or that maybe homosexuality isn't always a choice. But you assume silence is condemnation. Sorry. I don't buy the argument.
But then again for people like you it's always black and white isn't it? This is where our conversation fails. Some of us can recognize a "third way" beyond your authoritarian, dogmatic interpretation and one that reconciles evolution and the Big Bang (which, just to clarify, are two different things) with faith. I take such a middle path. Shockingly I agree with you that it is ridiculous to assume that an 'accident' caused the creation of the earth (although I have no problem accepting the possibility that we evolved from monkeys). But on the other hand I think the creation story taken literally is equally bogus. What's wrong with assuming divine handiwork in evolution or billions of years of creation? Oh I know...the Bible doesn't say so. Therefore it must not be true.
For the record, by the way, slavery caused strife in the Church too. As did women's roles in the church. As did arguing over the nature of salvation, the nature of the Trinity and liturgy. Hence why we have some 20,000+ denomonations of Christianity (or Christianity, fake Christianity and Satanism-disguised-as-Christianity, depending on your worldview I suppose). I believe sin is real, one need only look at the world to see that. But some of us find in Jesus a more compassionate and less judgmental figure than you. I agree that God hates sin. But I also remember that Jesus said love one another and there's a verse in Corinthians somewhere that says love is patient and kind. I remember a message condemning arrogance and self-righteousness. I remember a warning about being cautious in the judgment and condemnation of others. And for the constant citations of passages of personal holiness and ethics there are plenty in the Good Book about caring for those in need too. Funny how whenever you bring those up your response if always "We do that" and then the subject is returned to some other sin. Regardless of how you may see yourself Donny you do not exhibit kindness or compassion and you are a bit self-righteous.
We both speak english, but is apparent that we speak two very different languages at the same time. My only response can be that I do not see God, the Bible, Christ or the world as you do. What else could I say? Amen.

Opps my post should have read- Though I disagree "with some people" I am obligated under God's commandment to love every one as I would love my God. I don't disagree with the commandment.

Donny- I just don't know what Bible you read. You read me of Paul, but when he was Saul, intent on persecuting the Christians. Literally blinded by his point of view.
Apostles wrote about 2007 Progressive/Liberal/Democrat socialism so discouragingly...???? I can also turn the words of God around to make my point. By why bother? Really. I just don't know. I don't follow the Jesus you do and I am thankful I don't. Really thankful.

By the way, if David Kuo himself is reading this blog... First, I enjoy reading your blog. I haven't read your book yet but I look forward to. Second, David why don't you directly address some of Donny's challenges? Thus far you seem to ignore them or respond gently with a light reprimand to "play nice". While I think that Donny is a bit of a kook, I have to admire his passion and it disappoints me that you are unwilling to confront him about it. Why not challenge him? I've noticed that Rod Dreher (the Crunchy Cons guy) tends to jump into the blogs quite a bit and responds to challengs. You seem to sit them out. So, why not directly respond to Donny? I'd like to see a real substantive discussion here. Either Donny will be exposed as a total nutcase or he will prove to be right about more than we're willing to give him credit for. Why not take the challenge? I'd like to hear your responses. Frankly I share Donny's disappointment that there is an obvious double standard amongst the religious left, particularly when it comes to being partisan (Jim Wallis may talk about being neither left nor right all he wants but that's an obvious crock). How about it?

And why is lesbian activity notably absent from the Torah? And the relationship between David and Jonathan has been assumed to have a homo-erotic component by several Jewish authorities. And the death penalty in Leviticus has NEVER been imposed by any Jewich court at any time.

Donny, Donny. Hence why I say I am not a 'Christian' by your definition (or what you say the Apostles wrote, I suppose). Unfortunately, try as you might, you cannot monopolize the definition of a Christian. Certainly I am not an orthodox Christian. But you cannot set the terms of this by yourself. Of course I've never heard anyone say "There's only one right religion and-damn-it's hers not mine!" Naturally you would be the guardian of Truth. What can I say? I know: If your "God" is in fact 'the' God who created the heavens and the earth, then I would just as soon prefer to burn in hell. For the record by the way, I talked to Him just this morning so somehow I'm not worried about that :) You are not the only one on this board who has a relationship with the Creator. I communicate quite regularly with Him. I do not read the entire Bible as an inspired book with every word, passage and punctuation inspired and infallable like you. Therefore I leave open the possibility that some things that are attributed to Jesus and the Apostles may never have been said, that some events in the book are fictional and that many parts of simply a product of its time. History is an imperfect record of anything, my friend. I simply believe that you find your own views affirmed in your reading of Scripture and 'Truth', hence why you refuse to consider any alternative. But as I have said before this is the key stumbling block between us. You do seem to be unusually defensive and angry, despite your repeated denials of having any ill will, and I can only feel sorry for someone whose faith is so bitter-or self-righteous. But after all, what is the point of Heaven if someone else isn't damned? I suppose I will find out after death but "warnings" from people like yourself no longer scare me-I can now only feel pity for someone who accepts without blinking a religious teaching that teaches that the vast bulk of humanity is condemned to eternal torment. Unfortunately I can't see any point in our discussions, since your mind is so clearly made up. Instead, I wish peace on you and hope that at some point you can let go of the tremendous hatred that you harbor-that all of us can see but somehow you can't. That may be the plank you need to extract from your own eye, hmm? (Yes, I know the rest of the "judge not lest ye be judged" line) But of course it is not my place to judge. I wish you peace and happiness all the days of your life.

Does anyone know why is abortion so important to the Christian right in the USA?