Good point. I think we all tend toward that type of self-justification when backed into a corner about a choice we’ve made that isn’t necessarily God’s best for us, opting for the “no one worries about that anymore” approach.

David, I wish you would further explain your position on condoms. If it is a good idea to distribute them in the third world, should we also give them to high school students in the U.S.? I don’t see a logical difference.

It’s a foolish comment about marriage and virginity, but do we need to live in a world without folly to not feel oppressed? Just to find a Church without folly is next to impossible. Celebrities say stupid things. Pastors say stupid things. I say stupid things. Actually, now I feel kind of empowered.

I’ll admit, I don’t see how a polling done in USA applies to what a Brazilian supermodel in her mid-twenties says to a Brazilian newspaper while in Brazil. In context one can reasonably presume that particular statement to refer primarily to urban Brazilian women. Isn’t that going a bit far afield in search of an offense to get upset about, perhaps? I have to admit I find all the fuss about virginity lacking in point. Neither the supposed burden nor the supposed virtue impressed me personally as real when I was younger, and I feel the same way now.

Hmm… That same study said that 6.9% of the men stayed virgins until marriage and that many virgins were nonetheless sexually involved. Given that a majority of people in this country identify themselves as Christian and that only a small percentage actually forgo sexual involved prior to marriage, who is oppressing whom? Also from the cited webpage: “ABSTINENCE-ONLY EDUCATION To date, six studies of abstinence-only programs have been published. None of these studies found consistent and significant program effects on delaying the onset of intercourse, and at least one study provided strong evidence that the program did not delay the onset of intercourse. Thus, the weight of evidence indicates that these abstinence-only programs do not delay the onset of intercourse. * A study of 7,326 seventh and eighth graders in California who participated in an abstinence-only program found that the program did not have a measurable impact upon either sexual or contraceptive behaviors. * Nearly two-thirds of teenagers think teaching “Just Say No” is an ineffective deterrent to teenage sexual activity. * The National Institutes of Health’s Consensus Panel on AIDS said in February 1997 that the abstinence-only approach to sexuality education “places policy in direct conflict with science and ignores overwhelming evidence that other programs (are) effective.” Still, ‘junk science’ continues to be promoted by abstinence-only advocates.

Patrick, “If it is a good idea to distribute them in the third world, should we also give them to high school students in the U.S.?” Yes. “I don’t see a logical difference.” There isn’t one, other than locale.>

I’m with Jillian — actually I find something rather prurient in the overemphasis on virginity and sexual purity. As I’ve said before, innocence is more important than virginity, but not even innocence can be protected forever. One of my favorite movies is “The 40-Year Old Virgin” – to me, one message of that movie is that there is nothing wrong with being a virgin. By the same token, there is nothing especially virtuous about being one, either.>

there is nothing especially virtuous about being one, either. I beg to differ. Virginity is the state that God expects us to maintain until marriage. Keeping it in the face of overwhelming cultural pressure is not easy. Those who do so are, by definition, virtuous, and deserve some extra respect from the rest of us.>

Not so fast! Go back and re-read the study again. The “20% virgin until marriage figure” includes adults up to 59 years of age. So, it is including people who married as far back as the late 1960′s, probably as young as 18 or 19 years old. I sincerely doubt the figure would be 20% if you just included people who marry this year, what with the average age of marriage being in the mid – 20′s. The supermodel’s comment is somewhat hyperbolic,but hardly so far off the mark that an apology is warranted.

Let’s agree to disagree, Patrick. I don’t believe God expects us to maintain virginity until marriage, but I do believe that many Christians interpret the Bible to say that He does. I don’t think that people should be respected merely for making a counter-cultural choice, unless it can also be shown to be a wise choice for them. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that there were plenty of marriages in which both partners waited — and then the marriages ended in divorce, anyway. And, conversely, strong, lasting marriages in which neither partner waited. On the other hand, since I am single and never-married, I am in awe of anyone who makes a marriage work.>

I don’t believe God expects us to maintain virginity until marriage, but I do believe that many Christians interpret the Bible to say that He does. I certainly interpret it that way. I have a really hard time reaching any other conclusion from the scriptures that deal with this subject. Where in the Bible do you find support for your position?>

I don’t believe the Bible was written by God, but by men. Perhaps that doesn’t make me a good Christian by some interpretations, but figuring out what it means to be a Christian (if I even am one) is something that I believe is a lifetime process, and I don’t count virginity before marriage as one of the main characteristics of a good Christian. Where do you stand on adults telling other adults whether it is moral for them to have sex outside of marriage? What about those of us who never marry — are we supposed to believe that we are violating God’s laws if we don’t remain virgins? I simply don’t agree that this is the case.>

What do you think the Bible has to say to victims of rape, Patrick? And what do you personally say?>

The virginity statistics will be highly variable based upon local, regional and global cultural influences.
Even if the 20% figure is accepted (for purposes of discussion), that means an 80% failure rate for abstinence only programs. Multiply .80 by the percentage chance of infection with a STD in a sexual encounter without a condom and the percentage chance when a condom is properly used and it quickly becomes obvious what the ethical decision is. Education should focus primarily on the condom and encouraging its proper use.
Combined with education of the condom in STD prevention should be a course on ethical behaviour in societies. The point is not indoctrination but to show people that concern for others goes hand in hand with being a sexually active person. Games theory, (including the prisoner’s dilemma), as well as other models that show the value of trust and the costs of betrayal are invaluable. The key is that such a course must not be preachy but anthropologically and scientifically sound. Tutorials should include pertinent case studies and encourage personal exploration of the ethical dilemmas. I actually think that people rather enjoy exploring and grappling with such questions as they are frequently a part of popular entertainment and great literature.
And lastly the point of such a program is not to indoctrinate but to give students a basis for grappling with the messy ethical dilemmas that confront us in life. (i.e. Just say no, is not the point of the exercise.)

Giselle is speaking based on her EXPERIENCE. Furthermore, in her fast-paced world of high fashion, maybe no one is a virgin! If they are, they don’t brag about it. Besides, she has as much right to use the bully pulpit to speak as the Pope does. With so many Catholics in 3rd-world nations without proper medical advice and care and the AIDS epidemic, it is irresponsible to say ‘don’t use condoms’. I’m not Catholic so perhaps I don’t GET it, but I think she’s right.

Let’s see, now… the Catholic Church forbids fornication.
So, by definition, anyone in the Third World who’s out fornicating and infecting others with the HIV virus is plainly IGNORING whatever the Church says about sex.
And yet, you think people who ignore Church teaching on chastity and monogamy are meekly obeying the Church’s teachings on contraception?
Ya might wanna rethink that.

The Catholic Church is not in the business of helping people commit sexual sins without consequences. That role belongs to Planned Parenthood, and they’ve done such an OUTSTANDING job at preventing abortions and out-of-wedlock births, not to mention preventing STDs, since they opened up shop. What’s more, their interventions have done wonders stabilizing families and reducing divorce rates.
I seriously doubt they’d want the Church getting involved at this late point and taking credit for all their success. (heavy sarcasm intended)

i am 24 and i’m a virgin. remaining a virgin has been something rather important to me. i am getting married in october this year and my fiance` is also a virgin…we are proud to say we have waited and remained pure until we were ready to make a lifetime committment to ONE person…

Of the more than two dozen STDs out there, condoms are only partially effective against two. They do nothing to prevent the spread of Herpes (infecting 1 in 5 Americans over age 11), or HPV (acquired by 75 percent of people having sex outside of marriage). These parenthetical stats come directly from the Centers for Disease Control.
The only profit from condoms is for the multi-billion dollar industry that sells them. But more than protecting your body, abstinence protects your heart, as well. Want to have a strong marriage? Wait till then to have sex, and your chances jump significantly. Marriages started with one virgin drops the divorce rate by 71 percent. Two virgins?…divorce is almost eliminated.