She’s a polarizing figure no doubt. I don’t fully understand the depth of animosity some people feel about her. It seems that it may have started with those articles written by David Brock many years ago, portraying her as a monster. Brock disowned the articles, but the effect is still out there.

I’m a freshman in college. What I find fascinating is that many people, particularly those my own age, don’t seem to have clear reasons for “hating” Sen. Clinton. I think part of it is simply that she’s a woman.

It’s something isn’t it? Yet when you objectively compare her to all the other candidates in the field she is clearly the most competent and qualified for the job. Lord knows we need to bring competence back in the White House. I think she’d really help us to repair our image abroad too.

Gee, I dunno! Maybe it’s partly because she’s a woman–a strong, self-possessed woman who didn’t fit the traditional mold of a First Lady. There are those (Andrew Sullivan, e.g.) who say she’s calculating, cold, insincere and thoroughly political. I kinda like her, actually. I don’t know if I’ll vote for her, but heck, she’d be better than what we’ve got now!

There are those (Andrew Sullivan, e.g.) who say she’s calculating, cold, insincere and thoroughly political.
Tell me of one major political candidate in recent history who hasn’t been. The problem is not that she is these things, the problem is that she is a woman doing these things. It is expected for men to tell people what they want to hear, to say anything to get campaign votes, to betray one’s own ideals and religion for the sake of worldly power. Peter himself denied his savior to save his own skin. We simply expect women to be all smiles and cookies, don’t we? And when we don’t get what we expect, well, then, obviously there is something wrong with them now, isn’t there?

Let’s not forget that she and Bill were the first “baby boomer” couple to occupy the White House. The hard right projected onto her all their disdane for the ’60s. That was a period of change, which threatened many but gave us the a host of Civil Rights movements. It was a time of social experimentation which many white men criticized while having their second martini at lunch.
Maybe the hatred is driven by dislike of her policies. (I know that my anger toward W and Cheney are driven by my disgust at their policies and how they have governed our country.) I suspect, however, that much is driven by pure politics – fanned by fundraisers.

“The hard right projected onto her all their disdane for the ’60s. That was a period of change, which threatened many but gave us the a host of Civil Rights movements.”
Yeah, the civil rights movement, 50% divorce rates, unwed mothers by the millions, illegal drugs in our elementary schools, unfettered promiscuity, abortion on demand, adultery as no big deal, mentally ill children by the millions, a violent culture from babies to eighties, over-filled prisons, 20-million illegal aliens, socialism, and on and on.
There are a lot of reasons to dislike Mrs. Clinton and her baby-boomer generation of miscreants, degnerates and perverts.

And before I leave:
“I’m curious. What do you think?” writes David.
That you are working for the Democrats and now we know why you wanted Evangelicals to take a fast. To secure the Left in power.

So, the entire baby-boomer generation is now to be considered miscreants, degenerates and perverts?
On behalf of my generation, the one that also saw amazing strides in civil rights, medicine, science and a host of other “firsts”, I can say, in my most perverted way, “How dare you? How dare you judge me and my generation? I certainly hope you won’t, next, claim to be a Christian.”

My, isn’t “one person” overflowing with the love of Jesus tonight! Sounds like somebody I’d like to spend lots of time with. The “religious right” at its finest, no doubt.

Let’s see. That nasty old civil rights movement. Perhaps you remember when African Americans were not allowed on the same sidewalks as whites or when lynchings were winked at in some places. Or when the sheriff of Selma ordered dogs and firehoses on a march made up of entirely peaceful people. Perhaps you recall those women who married at 18, and were trapped forever if the marriage was violent or abusive. Darn, those were the good old days. Abortions – well they happened – everyone knew the local quack who performed them. And everyone knew who had them. Do we solve the problem by empowering the quacks again? I don’t know. Want to put people in jail for that? That would certainly work.
Illegal aliens – perhaps there were not so many – but then they were just Mexicans who could be deported right after the harvest. Deportees without names or power of any kind.
Mental disease? Remember the huge hospitals in every city where the mentally ill were sent? I recall them very well. Mental illness meant the end of life for many. Those hospitals are gone. You can now see your very own mentally ill on the streets – homeless or on TV. In New Orleans, one of the few psychiatrists left, tells loved ones to call the police. Jail is the only place to protect them. Oh, and New Orleans….
Remember the good ol days when doctors told parents of very sick or disabled infants to send them away – don’t get attached? Remember when priests and ministers told abused women that it was their duty to stay in the marriage – no matter what? Drugs- gosh – how many women were on valium or diet pills in the days before the 60′s? Their despair had no bounds. I recall some of those women. They certainly hid it all well, until the kids grew up. That still goes on. they live in despair over a future that is without any hope at all. So – we imprison the despairing along with real criminals. And we forget them. Not much has changed in that area. Rich addicts go to rehab. Poor addicts go to prison.
It is painful to change from worldviews that say some are more worthy than others for civil rights, for health care, for living wages for basic human dignity. It has been done awkwardly in some areas and poorly in others. But the illusionary world of “mayberry” where no black people lived, no one grieved, problems were very small and could be solved in 28 minutes had to be changed. I believe God is leading us – and like the Hebrew people- we mess up. We find idols to worship, but God is leading us all. God leads us out of despair. Satan leads us into making monsters out of our own petty needs for vengeance and our entitled resentment.
Jesus died for our sins. There on the cross we could see what our violence might look like. 2000 years later – we’re still creating victims. Jesus seemed to hang out with the “miscreants, degenerates and perverts” – ate dinner with such people – forgave them when nobody would. But we’re still involved in the accusing energy – one might say a satanic energy. I feel such energy sometimes. Certainly do understand it. But God calls us away from it. An addiction to righteous rage is the addiction that is destroying the world. And boy, is there a lot of it. God, deliver us from moral outrage and lead us toward a place of forgiveness. Deliver us from resentment – to a place of care for all our neighbors.
Currently, this country has four times the number of people in prison that it had 20 years ago. Whole industries are created around keeping those we would rather forget – invisible. Kind of wonder where Jesus would stand on all that.

Hillary is a pure-dee politician. This makes her not very likable and, worse, electable. She has a pretty centrist record, though, so it’s odd that og the Dems, she’s the one most often called an extremist.
An aside: why isn’t it apparent to all that scattershot accusations discredit the accuser rather than the accused. If the one person above isn’t on the Ddmocratic party’s payroll already (s)he’d be a great investment.

Hey Doug,
you’re right – I recently had a similar discussion with a neighbor – who hates pretty much everybody as he drives to church – and my comments were all the things I didn’t say to him and wish I had. However, he spends a lot of time telling me about his guns, so I kept quiet. Gotta get that under control.
Poor fellow…..

Thinker, you do well to save your anomie for unarmed bloggers.
I loved your vent, though. I tend to lean rightish and it was a great reminder for me to see your list of so many actual accomplishments of the change agents of the 60s. I’m plenty cynical now, but I can afford to be because I didn’t get born until that generation were making progress on apparently intractable and clearly intolerable barriers fabricated by this society.

Thinker – great vent! And let me add a big Amen!
As for ‘one person’ – sorry, I just don’t buy blaming one person for all the ills of a generation. My understanding was Christ’s sacrifice took are of the old testaments call for scapegoats.
I posted a similar question on an earlier blog entry (see below) and I never got an answer from someone who objects to Sen. Clinton. I’ve actually heard more critical comments of her from the left that actually have factual information to back it up. Basically, many people feel that she is too much in the center.
My previous posts
I must ask, because I truly don’t know. What, exactly, are the reasons for ‘hating’ Hillary Clinton?
I have heard a lot of denouncements of her over the last 15 years, but (from the right, at least) I have not heard of one reason that had any supporting proof to it. So, can anyone give me (1) coherant reasons for disliking Sen. Clinton, and (2) the incident(s) that caused this dislike?
And for the record, staying married to Bill Clinton is not a valid one to me. I have heard this, but from a group that claims the sanity of the family and decries divorce (not to mention the many examples _I_ know of women who have forgiven and stayed by their husbands at the urging of their churches) – this one won’t fly with me. The whole episode with David Vitter, who’s wife claimed during the Monica Lewinsky scandal that she would divorce a cheating husband than stood by him after his name was found in a madame’s little black book – pretty much proves this point.
Posted by: Charity | October 2, 2007 2:19 PM

Hatred is usually born of fear. What do Hillary’s haters fear? That she is busting through the door of the good ole boys club? Whether you agree with her positions or not, she has more courage than any other ten people you can name and the brains to make this campaign work. Those qualities alone are an improvement over the current occupant of the White House.

Her positions are entirely poll-based and -tested rather than authentic and from the heart, her base is entirely establishment rather than populist, her appeal is entirely that of entitlement instead of listening to voters, and her personality is as grating as a bullhorn and leaves one as cold as a Park Ridge, Illinois or Chappaqua, New York winter.
Yes, she’s whip-smart, dogged in constituent service in New York, and essentially served as the key adviser to the President of the United States for most of eight years. (I doubt Hill and Bill saw much of each other during the Lewinsky/Starr/impeachment nightmare.)
But with her almost brutal aloofness, I question how she can be a LEADER — and particularly the unifying leader our country desperately needs after the divisiveness of the Bush years.
Then again, said divisiveness came from the presidency of a man with the easy bonhomie of a frat boy (who nicknames everyone he meets, no less), so what do I know?

Honestly, for all her rhetoric, she is just another politician in my eyes. Boring and predictable as the most of the rest of the lot. The only big deal most people see is the fact that she wears a skirt…honestly, so what?
I want a leader that will make me proud to be an American…most politicians honestly don’t do that right now…chuckle.
I am an Independent who voted Right-wing 8 years ago and will probably never do so again. The Republicans showed their true colors in the last 8 years and I lost any respect I had for them.
I wish we had a strong third party.

Thinker (et al),
“Jesus died for our sins. There on the cross we could see what our violence might look like. 2000 years later – we’re still creating victims. Jesus seemed to hang out with the “miscreants, degenerates and perverts”
And he changed them!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Go and sin no more? Talk about heaven? Remember that Thinker? Jesus took repentance and forgiveness seriously. It is now an intolerant action and a hate crime to preach that people need to change their “sinful” behavior.
The baby boomers have corrupted and perverted many newer generations after them, to believe that that statement by Jesus is homophobic, bigoted and intolerant and forcing Christianity on everyone. The baby-boomers have invented new laws to keep this Jesus OUT of our public shpere from everywhere from our kindergarten schools to our universities and beyond!!!
Deal with the truth. Jesus did.
Take a look at this brain trust:
“So, the entire baby-boomer generation is now to be considered miscreants, degenerates and perverts?
On behalf of my generation, the one that also saw amazing strides in civil rights, medicine, science and a host of other “firsts”, I can say, in my most perverted way, “How dare you? How dare you judge me and my generation? I certainly hope you won’t, next, claim to be a Christian.”
Big business drug companies using science invented the medicines that have cured illness. The baby boomer generation uses drugs to get high. LOOK AT HOW MANY CHILDREN AND YOUNG ADULTS ARE ADDICTS OR DEAD NOW!!!!!
Yes, yes, and yes, the baby boomer generation is one of the most corrupt generation in history.
Martin Luther King Jr. was fighting with the blood of generations long silenced before the hedonists of the baby boomer generation took control of and destroyed morality.
Now abominations are “protected” by “civil rights.”
The baby boomer generation spawned evil where once beauty existed.
Love” to the baby boomer generation is an orgasm and nothing more. “Love” to a baby boomer is nothing more than a sales pitch for one more one night stand. And the bastard children of that incredible promiscuity have grown into the Liberals and Progressives of today.
Christ Jesus cannot be subverted by the balding, grey and plastic surgery ridden baby boomes that desire to paint over their actions of destruction and perversion inflicted on a society now so corrput “marriage” itself is a worthless word.
Thinker, if you want to be honest, Jesus hung on that Cross calling people to come to Him and be forgiven and to be saved. The baby boomer generation of today, like the corrupt generation of His day, reject the idea of repentance and forgiveness. Look at the quote above for proof and then read the Gospels. Like the generation surrounding Jesus and the Apostles in the “first century” the baby boomers chose Nero and hedonsit life.
And here we are. And this is just a sample of the ills spawned by the “anything goes” baby boomer generation inflicted on our society today:
“50% divorce rates, unwed mothers by the millions, illegal drugs in our elementary schools, unfettered promiscuity, abortion on demand, adultery as no big deal, mentally ill children by the millions, a violent culture from babies to eighties, over-filled prisons, 20-million illegal aliens, socialism, and on and on.”
\\\
And they sound exactly like the “perverse” generation that Jesus mentioned . . .
You have been to a college, university, high school or elementary school haven’t you?

Wow, Donny! Good one!!
“And the bastard children of that incredible promiscuity have grown into the Liberals and Progressives of today.”
That’s a whole lot of bastardy goin’ on!
Funny, my observation is that the most powerful bastards are in the Executive Branch, vetoing children’s health insurance, running secret prisons and American gulags, and kidnapping and torturing people.

Donny, your arguments are perverse, so rage filled and have absolutely nothing to do with the Jesus who leads me in life. Scripture is a big picture – where did God lead us from “the beginning”. God led us out of the sacrficial violence of Cain. God led us through the law to the beatitudes and finally to the law of love. I usually skip your posts altogether and just read the posts reacting to them. The language of “one person” was the language you often use. I know you think yourself a writer and a scholar -you are neither. Rage is your game and it is obvious to all.
When you are speaking only from your compassionate heart – there is the person I want to know. The rest of the time – I think I’ll just change the channel.

“Funny, my observation is that the most powerful bastards are in the Executive Branch, vetoing children’s health insurance, running secret prisons and American gulags, and kidnapping and torturing people.”
\\\
We have Muslims in our Executive Branch? You just described them to a tee. I didn’t know that.

Larry,
Thank you. Although you didn’t cite actual instances, your argument makes sense and I can respect that point of view.
For the record, I agree with Leigh Ann. To me, the Republicans seem interested only in power and controlling little people’s lives, while letting the powerful (especially in the business world) treat the US government as their personal lackey. The Religious Right screams about protecting the innocent unborn, but then backs policies that help create the very causes and sometimes even need for abortion (no willing to suppoort birth control, pre-natal care, post natal care, food stamps, etc.) which is a disconnect I find very disturbing. And the democrats are focused on an ideal based on the assumption that if everyone just had the right kind of help, every thing would be OK. (Sorry, but like it or not, some people don’t WANT to be good, okay?)
A strong third party – or at the very least a system that would let a third party in to at least play would be nice.

“I know you think yourself a writer and a scholar -you are neither. Rage is your game and it is obvious to all.
When you are speaking only from your compassionate heart – there is the person I want to know. The rest of the time – I think I’ll just change the channel.”
Posted by: Thinker
You must have a Jesus that has led you only to watch CNN or HBO.
I think of myself as just a person. I am that. “Rage?” How about an honest assessment of reality.
The world (the America) I live in has children so injured from what Liberals and Progressives like the Clintons have inflicted on them, that I can only hear Jesus warning people like them, to what happens to people (by Jesus) that cause little ones to stumble. You better start reading your Bible after you change the channel. Or better yet, get out and see what Liberals and their baby-boomer generation is still doing to our society. STD’s are raging. And, for a reason.
Visit a mental health institution and/or a juvenile hall, a high school (public) a street corner in the city at night (or in the day time) and see for yourself what Liberals have done to the people dwelling there. You will notice the incredible numbers of children that do not know who their father is, that are into promiscuity and drugs and crime. You think David walks around the inner-cities of DC at night?
Time to wake up Thinker. Or, as the real Jesus said, for those who have eyes let them see, and ears, let them hear. Not a very nice way of saying that people are ignorant or ignoring real problems caused by real people. There is no justifying supporting Liberal and Progressive Democrats “if” you are a Christian. The baby boom generation is a perfect example of this.
A passionate heart does not replace a sensible mind. I use both.
I’m off to work.

Charity:
This is not to say I might not end up voting for Sen. Clinton anyway — though certainly not in the primary, where there are several candidates (one in particular) I like more who have all the qualities I find lacking in Sen. Clinton, yet still have her fierce intelligence and sense of constituent service. (Except, of course, that those Dems lack the “inevitability” the Washington media that wants to keep the Bush-Clinton soap opera going for 24 or 28 years is projecting.)
But if I do vote for Sen. Clinton next November, it will be holding my nose and feeling like I’m, as another member of our nation’s odd Bush-Clinton dynasty would say, “eating my broccoli.”

Larry:
I can relate. The candidates I like the most are all 2nd tier, in both parties. Well one is kind-of 1st tier (Edwards) but the ‘major’ candidates leave me cold.
Yet….after these last 6+ years, one thing that Clinton does have that I feel we desperately need is competence. Give me a tarnished and slightly battered soul that can get the job done over a hyper-cheerful feel good bungler any day. ;-/

Donny – Guess what. You seem to think you are the only one who sees or experiences what happens to our kids and to our society. There is a certain arrogance there – especially when you presume to know about the time I spend in center cities helping kids… or presume to say that I don’t know what is going on there. Please. I see it. I know it. I know names and faces and stories and I know the tears and the suffering and the pain and the hopelessness and the shame. But you know what? It is NOT because of liberals. To reach that conclusion is to miss the reality of a broken and hurting world.

“It is NOT because of liberals. To reach that conclusion is to miss the reality of a broken and hurting world.”
Amen, David.

I disagree with you completely on this David.
What debauchery our children are experiencing, started precisely with the hippy movement that is one and the same with Liberals and the way they live their hedonist lives. Now Liberals are calling themselves Progressives. They used to be called Romans and before that Babylonians and before that Sodomites. Look at the behaviors?
I would like to see you, or Thinker, or anyone else use history, the Apostles writings, or the Gospels to show how I do not have the correct position to my strong assertion. No, make that my accusation and charge.
I tested things.
You know very well that children are living in hell (those that were not killed in the womb), because of the “anything goes” and “do what thou wilt” ideology of “Liberals.”
I notice not one person on any blog here at Beliefnet will use New Testament scripture to support Liberal and Progressive actions and beliefs, except to present the word “love” to license anything.

Donny:
Beliefnet is an all-faith site, not just a Christian one.
They/we don’t have to.

Donny, I don’t think you have any idea how your words affect readers. Contrary to what you might think, your expressed views on liberalism drive people away from Christianity, not towards it.
A question you may wish to ask yourself: What do I hope to accomplish by writing such belligerent comments?

Donny: I feel the need to correct something you got completely wrong in an earlier post. You said: “Jesus took repentance and forgiveness seriously. It is now an intolerant action and a hate crime to preach that people need to change their “sinful” behavior.” Hate crimes legislation (of which I have very mixed views) do NOT prohibit speech (certaintly not speech in Church) – they prohibit physcial violence. Hate crimes legislation says that leaving Matthew Sheppard tied to a fence to die after a beating in rural Wyoming is a special kind of violence. The theory is that it is different from a “regular” murder because it is random, and intended to victimize and terrorize a group. As I said, I am not sure what I think about this – but to say it would criminalize speach is just a vile lie.

Back on topic …
This states my feelings well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/05/AR2007100501680.html