I actually like Mitt Romney very much. I admire his record. He is an impressive man. But his appearance this morning on the Today show was pathetic. He tried to play vicitm of religious discrimination: "But I think attacking someone's...
What people should be doing is not asking Romney the questions. He is Mormon. One can assume that he follows and is in line with whatever Mormon theology is. It isn't his job to explain it. If we are curious and it is an important thing perhaps the fair thing to ask is for someone in his camp to direct us to the authoritative sources on what the Mormon faith is and then for us to make up our own minds as to whether or not it is something that we can accept. Coming from the Southwest where Mormons are abundant, what I have found is that they do a good job of practicing the family values that other denominations use as a talking point. We should take Romney at face value as with other candidates, religious leaning and not.
JLFuller
December 12, 2007 11:59 AM
A little history old buddy. When someone uses such inflammatory rhetoric as Huck did in the form of a question, it is not intended to clarify. It is intended to be an assault. "Do you still beat your wife" is intended to defame the receiver of the query not inquire about about his matrimonial relationship. But I think you knew that David.
If Huck really wanted to know about Mormon beliefs he could have gone to any of a number of authentic LDS sites. But had no such interest. His only interest is in making sure "his" people know he is God's candidate and Romney is not due to disqualification on religious grounds.
Doug
December 12, 2007 12:12 PM
I largely agree with JLFuller. "Mr. Romney, do you believe Jesus is Satan's brother?" is a question. Calling the local LDS congregation from home is asking a question. Googling "Do mormon's believe the apostles advocated peyote?" is inquiry. Standing at a podium asking "Don't Mormon's believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?" sounds like a political smear in the wool of a question.
Romney's no better with his "soft on immigration" smear campaign against Huckabee, but I find the idea that this is theological scholarship to be pretty far fetched.
I haven't seen the original report and I'm reserving judgement but we might have just learned Huckabee is no better than the rest.
David Kuo
December 12, 2007 12:26 PM
Of note - Huckabee's question was asked of a reporter... we don't know the full context. But we certainly know it wasn't a speech. And I AM curious why Romney isn't getting a barrage of questions about what his church believes? Why isn't he being asked if he believes Satan destroyed the true Christian church and the Mormons restored it.
All of this, of course, is horrid and toxic stuff in the midst of a campaign.
Elvis Elvisberg
December 12, 2007 12:34 PM
I don't know enough about Mormon theology, or evangelical caricatures thereof, to judge Huckabee's intent here. But I definitely think that "asking questions" can be done in an obnoxious manner.
The GOP is in a weird spot, that this "my god can beat up your god(s)" stuff can be a major issue. Mitt sure didn't have to give that speech in Massachusetts, where literacy rates are high and divorce rates are low, because people there generally don't think that the government needs to pat them on the head for their religious beliefs.
Larry Parker
December 12, 2007 12:46 PM
David:
You seem to be forgetting the push polls in Iowa as well as the fact that Huckabee is campaigning in Iowa specifically as a "Christian" -- with the implication that Romney, his chief rival there, is not.
Doug
December 12, 2007 12:49 PM
David, I agree with your conclusion but is Huckabee being asked what he believes? If he is the Baptist candidate shouldn't someone ask him why a non-doctrinal denomination expels member congregations over matters of worship or whether he believes baptisms given to infant Lutherans are sacramental?
If it turns out the reporter's question was "Do you think Mitt Romney believes Satan and Jesus are brpthers?" and Huckabee responded "Do Mormon's believe that?" then fair enough but if it turns out Huckabee brought that question up on his own then I'm disappointed in him.
Elvis, that's actually scriptural (see First Kings 18:21-40.) The GOP can't claim Jesus but I think it might be the party of Elijah.
David Kuo
December 12, 2007 12:51 PM
I truly hate all of this stuff... and yes, am highly critical of Huckabee's christian exploitation... will be writing on that... but... we can't get to the point where questions are viewed as attacks... if we do we will live in the midst of the very intolerance Romney said he was fighting against.
Doug
December 12, 2007 1:02 PM
Fair enough. Peace.
Dan
December 12, 2007 1:17 PM
Generally speaking, there's nothing wrong with asking questions about someone's religion, but that's not my objection here. Huckabee is asking a deliberately inflammatory question that inserts a demonstrable falsehood about Mormon doctrine into the public conversation. Imagine you're running for president in the Mormon states of America, and protestant Christians are a tiny, unfamiliar minority. Now imagine a Mormon candidate asked a New York Times reporter something like "don't protestants believe accepting Paul as your savior is only way to salvation?" That would be cynical and wrong, wouldn't it?
Spencer
December 12, 2007 1:33 PM
David,
I thought you were brighter than that. Anyone who thinks this "question" was anything less than yet another calculated Huckabee dig at Mormons has been drinking the kool-aid far too long. Trust me, Huckabee is a bright guy and knows exactly which buttons to push. I am very disappointed in him (and you).
ds0490
December 12, 2007 3:41 PM
Given the remarks that Huckabee made back when he was governor regarding "taking this nation back for Christ," I think that he deserves to be asked some pointed questions.
Yes, I suspect his question regarding Mormon doctrine was calculated to speak to those who have trouble supporting a Mormon for President. It is in the same vein as a book recently published that questions whether Mormons in general are fit for public office.
"The idea of a conflict existing between a Mormon’s responsibilities in an elected, or appointed, public office and their religious beliefs is not a whimsical contrivance by the author. The conflict does exist. Absolute obedience to the Mormon Priesthood, and the belief that Mormon leaders are “prophets, seers, and revelators,” who are God’s living oracles on earth and take precedence over everything else, is the foundation from which Mormonism springs."
Perhaps it is appropriate to raise the question of allegiance to ALL of those candidates who hold to some view of a higher power than the US Constitution. Can Huckabee, McCain, Obama, Clinton, Edwards, and the rest give an unequivocal affirmation that they will hold nothing higher than the Constitution should they be elected to serve as President. If not, why not? And why should members of one religious group receive an exception to this if we do not permit others?
PatientWitness
December 12, 2007 7:00 PM
The last 2 posts on Romney were very good, and the comments have given me a lot to think about. For me this usually involves juggling contradictory thoughts and opinions, some of which include:
1. There has always been discrimination based on religious beliefs.
2. Just because a religion holds a certain tenet doesn't mean its members all believe it (Catholics using birth control, non-tithing Baptists, Scientologists on Prozac, etc.)
3. Politicians running at this level in particular will say whatever their handlers want them to say, especially pandering to a particular audience (witness Huckabee being hard-nosed on immigration when meeting with the Minutemen)
4. While it would be entirely fair to ask the candidates about their beliefs, it would probably be fruitless as they'll say whatever is convenient or dodge the question. A leader, as opposed to just another politician, will have the backbone to say something along the lines that his beliefs are personal and have no place in a discussion regarding how to fix the problems that are plaguing this country. (The thought just occurred to me that in this respect alone one could consider that treasonous moron Bush a leader). Better to look at their record to see how their behavior is influenced by their religious beliefs.
5. I'd like to see more hard-hitting questions about what the candidates see as problems facing this country, and what they would do to fix those problems. I don't mean obsequient talking points, either. Questions like: what will you do about the shrinking middle class, job outsourcing, health care and insurance, ... questions that pertain to more than the extremist 10% from either side.
believer
December 13, 2007 3:53 AM
WorldNetDaily is reporting that on the LDS website it says that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
"More to the point, the official website of the LDS church explicitly makes the sibling connection between Jesus and Lucifer a matter of official Mormon doctrine.
"On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some – especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations," says the statement. "But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel "who was in authority in the presence of God," a "son of the morning." (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer's older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"
What falsehood and nonsense. May I ask Mormons to stop being deceptive about what their really believe? You'd think from some media statements and blog postings that Mormons don't believe this - yet their official LDS website says that they do believe it.
So its not a "falsehood" at all, anytime someone says that they are being deceptive about their religion.
Larry Parker
December 13, 2007 11:58 AM
But that was a planted question of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" sort.
Still waiting for your larger response ... you certainly know the impression you've left me, without that context.
mperry57
December 13, 2007 12:54 PM
Isn't David Kuo the author of the piece that claims that idol worship needs to be instituted into main-stream Christianity? Just wondering.
Unsympathetic reader
December 13, 2007 2:51 PM
Question for Mike Huckabee: "Besides physics, chemistry and biology, are there any other scientific fields you might to abandon without comment if they inconvenienced your preferred and admittedly, minority interpretation of the Bible?"
Ministry of Silly Walks
December 13, 2007 11:09 PM
I can't say for certain, of course, but it is hard for me to take Huckabee's protests that he doesn't know very much about Mormon theology at face value. There are all sorts of books on what evangelicals consider to be cults (e.g. Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, first published in 1965 and now in its fifth edition, is, perhaps, the standard resource, but there are countless others as well). These books point to the fact that, for many evangelicals and fundamentalists, knowing what "cults" (like LDS)that are aggressively recruiting folks to competing and, in their view, heretical, beliefs about Jesus believe, is extremely important. It is all part of understanding the competition in this life and death battle for souls.
For that reason, I find it hard to believe that a former Southern Baptist preacher such as Huckabee is as ignorant about one of the fastest-growing, slickest, and most effective competing versions of Christianity going, as he professes to be.
believer
December 17, 2007 4:04 PM
Physics, chemistry and biology? Come on. There is a small minority of scientists, who have studied geology, biology, genetics, anthropology, paleontology, who don't accept goo-to-you by the zoo 'evolution.' Natural selection is not the same as evolution. Do some research, look at answersingenesis.org or creationontheweb. There are PhD scientists that don't believe that australopithecines are in our ancestry in any way. Just because a majority of scientists believes something doesn't make it true. Now, only about 13% of American adults accept evolution as officially taught. So if you are part of that 13%, don't assume that everybody believes the unprovable, ever-changing, impossible to confirm stories of evolution.
And its not a minority understanding of the Bible, Christians have always believed that Genesis was a true account, and you'll find Christians around the world believe that Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead, is powerful enough to create the universe, just like He told us He did.
Post a Comment
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.
What people should be doing is not asking Romney the questions. He is Mormon. One can assume that he follows and is in line with whatever Mormon theology is. It isn't his job to explain it. If we are curious and it is an important thing perhaps the fair thing to ask is for someone in his camp to direct us to the authoritative sources on what the Mormon faith is and then for us to make up our own minds as to whether or not it is something that we can accept. Coming from the Southwest where Mormons are abundant, what I have found is that they do a good job of practicing the family values that other denominations use as a talking point. We should take Romney at face value as with other candidates, religious leaning and not.
A little history old buddy. When someone uses such inflammatory rhetoric as Huck did in the form of a question, it is not intended to clarify. It is intended to be an assault. "Do you still beat your wife" is intended to defame the receiver of the query not inquire about about his matrimonial relationship. But I think you knew that David.
If Huck really wanted to know about Mormon beliefs he could have gone to any of a number of authentic LDS sites. But had no such interest. His only interest is in making sure "his" people know he is God's candidate and Romney is not due to disqualification on religious grounds.
I largely agree with JLFuller. "Mr. Romney, do you believe Jesus is Satan's brother?" is a question. Calling the local LDS congregation from home is asking a question. Googling "Do mormon's believe the apostles advocated peyote?" is inquiry. Standing at a podium asking "Don't Mormon's believe Jesus and Satan are brothers?" sounds like a political smear in the wool of a question.
Romney's no better with his "soft on immigration" smear campaign against Huckabee, but I find the idea that this is theological scholarship to be pretty far fetched.
I haven't seen the original report and I'm reserving judgement but we might have just learned Huckabee is no better than the rest.
Of note - Huckabee's question was asked of a reporter... we don't know the full context. But we certainly know it wasn't a speech. And I AM curious why Romney isn't getting a barrage of questions about what his church believes? Why isn't he being asked if he believes Satan destroyed the true Christian church and the Mormons restored it.
All of this, of course, is horrid and toxic stuff in the midst of a campaign.
I don't know enough about Mormon theology, or evangelical caricatures thereof, to judge Huckabee's intent here. But I definitely think that "asking questions" can be done in an obnoxious manner.
The GOP is in a weird spot, that this "my god can beat up your god(s)" stuff can be a major issue. Mitt sure didn't have to give that speech in Massachusetts, where literacy rates are high and divorce rates are low, because people there generally don't think that the government needs to pat them on the head for their religious beliefs.
David:
You seem to be forgetting the push polls in Iowa as well as the fact that Huckabee is campaigning in Iowa specifically as a "Christian" -- with the implication that Romney, his chief rival there, is not.
David, I agree with your conclusion but is Huckabee being asked what he believes? If he is the Baptist candidate shouldn't someone ask him why a non-doctrinal denomination expels member congregations over matters of worship or whether he believes baptisms given to infant Lutherans are sacramental?
If it turns out the reporter's question was "Do you think Mitt Romney believes Satan and Jesus are brpthers?" and Huckabee responded "Do Mormon's believe that?" then fair enough but if it turns out Huckabee brought that question up on his own then I'm disappointed in him.
Elvis, that's actually scriptural (see First Kings 18:21-40.) The GOP can't claim Jesus but I think it might be the party of Elijah.
I truly hate all of this stuff... and yes, am highly critical of Huckabee's christian exploitation... will be writing on that... but... we can't get to the point where questions are viewed as attacks... if we do we will live in the midst of the very intolerance Romney said he was fighting against.
Fair enough. Peace.
Generally speaking, there's nothing wrong with asking questions about someone's religion, but that's not my objection here. Huckabee is asking a deliberately inflammatory question that inserts a demonstrable falsehood about Mormon doctrine into the public conversation. Imagine you're running for president in the Mormon states of America, and protestant Christians are a tiny, unfamiliar minority. Now imagine a Mormon candidate asked a New York Times reporter something like "don't protestants believe accepting Paul as your savior is only way to salvation?" That would be cynical and wrong, wouldn't it?
David,
I thought you were brighter than that. Anyone who thinks this "question" was anything less than yet another calculated Huckabee dig at Mormons has been drinking the kool-aid far too long. Trust me, Huckabee is a bright guy and knows exactly which buttons to push. I am very disappointed in him (and you).
Given the remarks that Huckabee made back when he was governor regarding "taking this nation back for Christ," I think that he deserves to be asked some pointed questions.
Yes, I suspect his question regarding Mormon doctrine was calculated to speak to those who have trouble supporting a Mormon for President. It is in the same vein as a book recently published that questions whether Mormons in general are fit for public office.
http://whensaltlakecitycalls.wordpress.com/
"The idea of a conflict existing between a Mormon’s responsibilities in an elected, or appointed, public office and their religious beliefs is not a whimsical contrivance by the author. The conflict does exist. Absolute obedience to the Mormon Priesthood, and the belief that Mormon leaders are “prophets, seers, and revelators,” who are God’s living oracles on earth and take precedence over everything else, is the foundation from which Mormonism springs."
Perhaps it is appropriate to raise the question of allegiance to ALL of those candidates who hold to some view of a higher power than the US Constitution. Can Huckabee, McCain, Obama, Clinton, Edwards, and the rest give an unequivocal affirmation that they will hold nothing higher than the Constitution should they be elected to serve as President. If not, why not? And why should members of one religious group receive an exception to this if we do not permit others?
The last 2 posts on Romney were very good, and the comments have given me a lot to think about. For me this usually involves juggling contradictory thoughts and opinions, some of which include:
1. There has always been discrimination based on religious beliefs.
2. Just because a religion holds a certain tenet doesn't mean its members all believe it (Catholics using birth control, non-tithing Baptists, Scientologists on Prozac, etc.)
3. Politicians running at this level in particular will say whatever their handlers want them to say, especially pandering to a particular audience (witness Huckabee being hard-nosed on immigration when meeting with the Minutemen)
4. While it would be entirely fair to ask the candidates about their beliefs, it would probably be fruitless as they'll say whatever is convenient or dodge the question. A leader, as opposed to just another politician, will have the backbone to say something along the lines that his beliefs are personal and have no place in a discussion regarding how to fix the problems that are plaguing this country. (The thought just occurred to me that in this respect alone one could consider that treasonous moron Bush a leader). Better to look at their record to see how their behavior is influenced by their religious beliefs.
5. I'd like to see more hard-hitting questions about what the candidates see as problems facing this country, and what they would do to fix those problems. I don't mean obsequient talking points, either. Questions like: what will you do about the shrinking middle class, job outsourcing, health care and insurance, ... questions that pertain to more than the extremist 10% from either side.
WorldNetDaily is reporting that on the LDS website it says that Mormons believe Jesus and Satan are brothers.
"More to the point, the official website of the LDS church explicitly makes the sibling connection between Jesus and Lucifer a matter of official Mormon doctrine.
"On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some – especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations," says the statement. "But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel "who was in authority in the presence of God," a "son of the morning." (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer's older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)"
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59168
What falsehood and nonsense. May I ask Mormons to stop being deceptive about what their really believe? You'd think from some media statements and blog postings that Mormons don't believe this - yet their official LDS website says that they do believe it.
So its not a "falsehood" at all, anytime someone says that they are being deceptive about their religion.
But that was a planted question of the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" sort.
Still waiting for your larger response ... you certainly know the impression you've left me, without that context.
Isn't David Kuo the author of the piece that claims that idol worship needs to be instituted into main-stream Christianity? Just wondering.
Question for Mike Huckabee: "Besides physics, chemistry and biology, are there any other scientific fields you might to abandon without comment if they inconvenienced your preferred and admittedly, minority interpretation of the Bible?"
I can't say for certain, of course, but it is hard for me to take Huckabee's protests that he doesn't know very much about Mormon theology at face value. There are all sorts of books on what evangelicals consider to be cults (e.g. Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, first published in 1965 and now in its fifth edition, is, perhaps, the standard resource, but there are countless others as well). These books point to the fact that, for many evangelicals and fundamentalists, knowing what "cults" (like LDS)that are aggressively recruiting folks to competing and, in their view, heretical, beliefs about Jesus believe, is extremely important. It is all part of understanding the competition in this life and death battle for souls.
For that reason, I find it hard to believe that a former Southern Baptist preacher such as Huckabee is as ignorant about one of the fastest-growing, slickest, and most effective competing versions of Christianity going, as he professes to be.
Physics, chemistry and biology? Come on. There is a small minority of scientists, who have studied geology, biology, genetics, anthropology, paleontology, who don't accept goo-to-you by the zoo 'evolution.' Natural selection is not the same as evolution. Do some research, look at answersingenesis.org or creationontheweb. There are PhD scientists that don't believe that australopithecines are in our ancestry in any way. Just because a majority of scientists believes something doesn't make it true. Now, only about 13% of American adults accept evolution as officially taught. So if you are part of that 13%, don't assume that everybody believes the unprovable, ever-changing, impossible to confirm stories of evolution.
And its not a minority understanding of the Bible, Christians have always believed that Genesis was a true account, and you'll find Christians around the world believe that Jesus Christ, who rose from the dead, is powerful enough to create the universe, just like He told us He did.
Post a Comment
By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.