An interesting piece, although none of the articles seem conclusive. The legal status of prostitution and other sexual activities is just one of those things people have to exercise their judgement on when they vote, and judgement is more than good enough for Democracy. The idea that kids are in the same category as adults is creepy, though. I’m not convinced the age of consent should be thirty.

I don’t think Douthat is really making the case that molestation is the same as making your kid mow the lawn. I think he is taking the argument he quoted in his post to the logical extreme. In so doing, he shows that he is less scary than those he quoted and somewhat agreed with. He also shows the risk of making too little of sex.

I don’t get it. At one level it seems just another version of the cliché “if we don’t have moral absolutes, there are no morals” slippery slope fallacy.
It looks like a smart and reasonable argument on the surface, but it isn’t. The real problem is the assumed perspective, which is the philosophical “I” in search of a criterion for righteousness.
It isn’t “we, a society of 300 million people with a variety of conventions which are matters of tradition and necessity”. Or, on the other hand “what is the wise thing to conclude from the stories of the daughters of Noah, and of Judah and Tamar, and of the adultress who washed Jesus’s feet?”

Most of the questions being asked about the moral status of prostitution seem to boil down to, ‘should we treat sex as though it were morally and practically equivalent to some other activity, or as though it were wholly unique and requiring a different set of rules than the rest of life?’ Douthat just makes this explicit.
At the same time, he (and his commentors) also implicitly asking questions like:
* When, if ever, is it acceptable to exercise power over another person?
* In an interaction between a more-powerful person and a less-powerful person, can the less-powerful person’s choices ever be truly ‘free’?
* When should we allow people to make self-destructive choices, and when should we intervene to stop them?
- and none of those apply exclusively to sex, either.

OK, been thinking about this while I cleaned house all day. I figure I still have about a week of housecleaning left to do before the anxiety of disorder leaves me alone. Now, what, pray tell would Thinker’s really icky kitchen have to do with all this?
The questions are about trust, intimacy, the belovedness of God’s creation and about a sort of current existence in which none of those things exist. Perhaps the last 50 years have been a time when we move from trust (in employers, government, education) to a feeling of being very alone in the world ( I believe many call it post modernism) . Sex seems to echo this isolation created to keep economies and countries powerful and afloat. The institutions of church, school, etc have been destroyed – not by the tensions of liberal / conservative (false dichotomies indeed), but by the failure to care about anything larger than our very small worlds. Small worlds have no generosity of spirit, little compassion, a reduced sense of empathy, and a fascination with self as opposed to the bigger picture of what I see as “the Kingdom of God).
Having worked with families where incest was multi-generational, where sex was simply the way of creating momentary pleasure rather than intimacy, I must say that we are all at fault here. Our fascination with the sex lives of others – hey- those guys are way more perverted than me- is in fact the issue. How many times a week does th local news tell us about those sex offenders out there. How strange are the laws that make a 17 year old arrested for the statutory rape of a 15 year old girlfriend – -that make him a pariah for life. No military career, no ambition will work. He is forever labeled by our culture as unworthy of any forgiveness. Forever on the sex offenders list along with the man who raped his four year old niece. Cared for a child once who had been raped – she died of infection as her mother protected the boyfriend at all costs and let the child lie suffering for days until it was too late. Cared for prostitutes who had no alternatives in life – none – and who were brutalized by men to a degree that I still can hardly comprehend. Have watched young women used, abused and young men dehumanized by a culture that requires “doing it” rather than care. All of this is not new, but it is the new norm.
This administration is simply a symptom of our systematic disease. It is evil, because we refuse to be part of a more moral system. We lie to ourselves constantly about things like guns, or health care or a war created to make some rich. We find reasons not to be moral, but to be self centered. And then we create a moral tone to accuse those who oppose us. Might I point out any statement by Cheney in the last 6 years. His only tool is a rather cool, fearmongering, accusatory power and the secret society that it needs to continue.
OK, so what does this have to do with my icky kitchen – it sneaks up on you. Suddenly you can’t stand it anymore. You have to clean it up and tell the truth about the it. Not the truth that will make you feel better, but the truth that will make you feel a bit worse – a bit guilty – and – you have to assume your responsibility in the whole thing. It’s not somebody else – it is all of us – in need of trust, of intimacy, of a sense of our own goodness. I think Paul nailed it in Romans. But Paul often does that. Ok, I look back at this note and it too needs cleaning up. Will come back later – hopefully with clearer thoughts.

Isn’t the incest argument the same as the homophobic argument conservatives use?

Day 23
Dear Thinker:
Ever since my wife and I embarked on that 30 Day Non-Stop Sex Marathon Dave recommended a while back, the housework around our place has gone to Hades in a Safeway bag.
Mind you, there’s not a lot of laundry to do.
Oops, duty calls.

Canucklehead – you kill me!!
Good luck – the thirty days must just about be over – then what happens? Back to Comedy Central?
Larry, not sure I’m following on that response. Homophobia is quite simply our current way of scapegoating. When someone starts that line of “homosexual agenda”, I just recall the early 60′s and the manner in which so many denied the sin of racism and the arguments are the same. By the way – I once looked up the arguments that generals used when Truman desegregated the military. The arguments against gays in the military are almost exactly the same words that were used to keep the military forces separate and very unequal in the 40′s. Same arguments – same illogic. Weird. One of the best theologians on this issue is James Alison. Punched a hole in the “biblical” arguments and you can’t blow up a balloon of hot air when there’s a big ol hole in it.
Somebody please tell me why – priests, ministers, rabbi’s, – are so often the victimizers of the weak in this sexual thing. Actually – that’s a pretty rhetorical question. I already figured it out. Read something recently about the number of evangelical ministers addicted to internet pornography. What does that say? Why is sex such a way of controlling others in some religious traditions? Too many questions and I’m still in disorganized mode – more later.

Is there anywhere in the Bible from Old Testament to New, where a prostitute was seriously condemned for what “she” did? Jesus is related to quite a few prostitutes. Paul (BTW) is a better theologian than anyone born after AD 100. Peter, James, Jude and John followed the teachings of Jesus and never once condoned, supported, encouraged, or offered path for accepting homosexuality but a reprobate-pagan one or a new one where repentance and forgiveness preceded either a life committed to the Church or a good opposite sex spouse. There are enough gay bars and AIDS victims, and enough pederastic military history for any rational mind to know why to reject homosexuals from the military environment. That being said, God still has the consistent desire for unity and commitment in the monogamous marriage situation as the ideal situation for a moral and godly life. Read the quotes attributed to Jesus for sound theology on marriage.

both of them

. . . and both of them affirming that “marriage” is immutably a man and a woman. No phobia need apply. Just plain Biblical fact.

“Is there anywhere in the Bible from Old Testament to New, where a prostitute was seriously condemned for what “she” did?”
If you read John 8:11, you see that yes, Jesus forgives the adulterous woman, but does it on the condition that she go away and “sin no more”.
People always seem to forget that last part.

I should add, too, that over in “Virtual Talmud” there is an article on the condemnation of prostitution in Jewish tradition (in regard to the Old Testament part of your question.

I apologize for not putting this all in one post, but it just hit me what you said,
“Jesus is related to quite a few prostitutes”
Um, I don’t remember reading that in the New Testament. “Quite a few”?? Would you mind tossing me the chapters and verses? Thanks.