Dreher: I'm whistling past the graveyard
Sunday March 16, 2008
From Rod Dreher in response to my suggestion that Obama doesn't need a big speech addressing Jeremiah Wright: Whether it's fair to Obama or not, I think that's whistling past the graveyard. David Broder was correct this morning when he...
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Dear David,
Since reading Tempting Faith in the fall of '06 I've always admired your candour as a man and as a believer. I didn't always agree with everything, but I've always respected the intellectual integrity and will to introspection that evidently underline your positions, and I wish that the faith community would allow room for more of what you courageously represent.
Thank you so much.
As a Christian in the media its hard enough to keep my head about water and above the spin. You bring things into perspective.
David, if Reverend Wright were James Dobson (or any number of "right wingers") you would be all for hoisting him up on a pole in the city square. President Bush has taken slings and arrows (from people like you) for far, far, far lees "connection" to far, far, far, less insulting people, than Barack Obama is to Wright. It is rational to think that Wright has not trained his disciple Barack into believing much the same way as he does. Certainly Michelle Obama lends credence to the rationale. Come to think of it, Bush never used religion even half as much as Obama has.
The problem is that we know so little about Obama. So any new negative revelation about him is magnified. And lately, every time something new comes out about him, it raises questions about his judgment and capabilities.
We know he's continuing to associate himself with advisors who were comfortable lying about NAFTA-gate (Plouffe, Burton); we know he asked Rezko's wife to buy a plot of land next to the one he wanted to get a below-market(!) price on his plot; and we know he paid tribute in the 90's to domestic terrorists from the Weather Underground.
So you can excuse the Obama followers who now say "Enough is enough" with Wright. Obama has shown astoundingly poor judgment. He knew about Wright's statements in February of 2007 and kept Wright on his campaign. (even this last week, it was Wright who resigned; Obama wasn't going to ask him to)
So yes, we need to continue to debate issues about social justice. But that doesn't mean Obama shouldn't drop out of the race because of yet another scandal. And let the debate about social justice continue amongst credible politicians.
David: "And sometimes that gets expressed in anger… we need to resist the temptation to throw out in depth debates issues…
Okay, David, that's understandable and I agree with you. But for starters let's knock off all these double standards about this kind of thing regarding preachers and politics, where Wright can mouth off and get a pass because he's black and angry and leftist, but Robertson, Hagee, Falwell, and whoever else, get excoriated and pilloried for something they mouth off about because they're white and conservative.
water seeks it's own level.
David,
Thank you for your article. Hopefully, one of the media conglomerates will call on you to give so insight. We need a spiritual perspective from someone of your mindset.
David Gergen added light to the situation a few nights ago on CNN:
DAVID GERGEN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, because there's a long tradition, Anderson. And among black leaders to have a different view of American history, going all the way back to Frederick Douglass, who was one of the greatest American heroes of the 19th century, you know, who -- who gained his freedom from slavery in a great order.
He was invited the a July 4th celebration to give a July 4th speech in 1852, and he showed up and said, "You know, you whites see July 4 very differently from what I see it. This is not a day of celebration for us."
And I have found that in my classroom with black students frequently. When they speak their minds and when they speak their hearts, they have a very different view. I've had a young woman tell me, "July 4, we still can't celebrate it in my family, because of what's happened to us."
And I think that we as whites have to be understanding and empathic toward that and try to understand that, that people who are African-Americans legitimately have a different perspective on what American history has meant and take that into account as we hear this.
And it's not a lack of patriotism. It is a different form of patriotism. Actually, Reverend Wright may love this country more than any of us but feel we've fallen short of what we preach and believe.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0803/14/acd.01.h...
America is truly exposing itself as the polarized nation we have been and will continue to be for some time.
More on the larger context here: http://acropolisreview.com/2008/03/barack-obama-condemns-reverend-jeremiah.html
Welcome to the real world. Let's see how Obama does in Pennsylvania.
Mr. Walthamstone, I submit that the Wright clip has gotten about 50 times as much coverage as anything Hagee or Parsley have said. Because scary black dudes will always get more coverage than scary white dudes.
Our brains crave partisanship. Despite that, some guy once told us to love our enemies. I think that morality means refraining from knee-jerk reactions, and always honestly considering the views of putative enemies.
In sheer Google hits:
Jeremiah Wright: 224,000
John Hagee: 446,000
Ron Parsley: 311,000
Jerry Falwell: 1,180,000
Pat Robertson: 1,640,000
This is admitedly unscientific, but it does suggest that Wright is still pretty much small potatoes. He's had his fifteen minutes of Warholian Fame, whereas the Mainstream News Media has used Robertson and Falwell for punching bag for a lot more years.
So I still maintain that what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
David, stop making sense.
I have a certainly level of sympathy for those who would take sides with Rev. Wright. That said, I think it was Augustine who wrote on our sympathies that lied with those close to home... America certainly has a darker past than too many conservatives are willing to recognize. That said, it also has a brighter past than too many liberals are willing to recognize.
Mr. Walthamstone, the crucial difference here is that although Falwell, Robertson, Hagee, et alia ARE excoriated and pilloried (and rightly so), very seldom is their endorsement of a candidate used against the candidate in the way that Wright is being used against Obama. I happen to think it's perfectly fine to excoriate and pillory Wright for his crazy views, the same way I think it's perfectly fine to lambast the others mentioned above; where we cross the line is when we hold those associated with or endorsed by such persons accountable for the things those people say.
In short, let's slam Wright, Falwell, Robertson, Hagee and the rest equally for their crazy views, instead of trying to say that those views tarnish Obama, McCain, or anybody other than those who make such statements (and certainly not those who explicitly repudiate those statements). It's not any better to insist that McCain is a closeted bigot because he doesn't stand up and reject the endoresment of Hagee than it is to infer that Obama's secretly a black militant because his pastor's a nut.
Sorry, I meant "endorsement" above. I also (repeatedly) used the statement "crazy views" in a lighthearted way. I most certainly don't mean anyone to take offense nor feel as though (ironically) I'm calling them out as "crazy" if they don't jump up and slander those mentioned above. Hope that clarifies before anyone takes me the wrong way.
All too closely married are "God and Country" in the United States. It may be from our founders, or from Boy Scouts, or from some Cold War intentionality, but there they are. "God and Country". "Church and State".
Its like "Salt and Pepper". Separated, but married together for all eternity in the hearts and minds of 21st Century Americans.
The problem with Rev. Wright's comments, as I have seen them, is that you have a preacher who not only is so closely associated with the Obama Campaign that he is the link to which Barack Obama proves that he is not Muslim--by way of a conversion experience credited to Rev. Wright (a problem in and of itself given what was said). More-over that Rev. Wright has criticized the country that his own Spiritual Protege is trying to become the President.
I prefered Barack Obama against Clinton until this. I am sorry, but he knew what vile hate his pastor has been spewing. It sickens me. I used to be a member of a Presbyterian U.S. church. I loved the church and the pastor and the people. When the national church came out and divested of companies that did business in Israel, I contacted my church and asked how they planned to repond to that. They did nothing. Since I disagreed with this greatly, I left my church. Staying at the church insinuates agreement. He has been silent until he got negative blowback. NO way I will fall for that. Silence equals agreement...period. If he wanted to repudiate those comments, he should have done it earlier and he should have left the church. If my pastor spewed that kind of garbage, my butt would have been out of that church before he finished the sermon of hate. This coupled with his wife's comment that she has never been proud of America in her netire adult life makes me think there is some fire by that smoke. I am really beginning to think Barak may not be proud to be American. I want a President who loves our country. From what I can tell, Hillary and McCain love America more than Senator O'Bama.
I don't recall the statements of a politician's pastor being used previously as ammunition in a political campaign. That's a good thing-- to preach the Gospel faithfully, one must occasionally say something that won't withstand P.C. scrutiny. Why is Obama's church fair game, when others have been off-limits? Isn't this an attack on the black church, intended to remind some white folks why they might not want a black President? If so, where are the cries of condemnation from predominantly white churches across the political spectrum??
On a related topic, Obama's national denomination (United Church of Christ) is under IRS investigation for spurious reasons-- the charges are based on guidelines that lack the force of law, and most of the "evidence" has been on the UCC's website for over a year. Why the sudden interest? Couldn't be a politically motivated investigation, could it??
I was reading over on MSNBC. It sounds to me like Obama's view is if a constituent questions the "inflammatory sermons", the constituent is creating division and attacking him politically. The new Obama is much like the old Bush. There is just no room for voters that actually have a thought that the party didn't put into their head anymore.
"Sen. Barack Obama on Saturday decried "the forces of division" over race that he said are intruding into the Democratic presidential nomination contest.
"We have to come together," he told a town-hall meeting at a high school.
He cited videos of inflammatory sermons given by his pastor that are now being used as political ammunition against him — remarks that Obama has denounced."
"I don't recall the statements of a politician's pastor being used previously as ammunition in a political campaign."
Yes, heaven forbid a voter see something that raises questions in their mind and they ask questions. It must be some plot against the candidate! Not all of us live in a political pundit blogosphere. However, since you are so astute as to discern the race of the person at the keyboard, and so concerned about race, I'll let my black brother in law talk to you, if he is not up to your standards, perhaps my hispanic niece or nephew, or my black neice. They have the same questions I do.
Maybe in your world its white, black, hispanic and other. Many of us have multi-racial families and it is just disgusting the way you can't get over the race of either your candidate or other people. It is disgusting that people asking questions or yes, even disagreeing with a candidate is viewed as an attack. It is disgusting that its about the the sex of one candidate and the color of another.
Yes, the remarks were racially-orientated prejudices, and we do have the right to question the candidates on this.
Mr. Walthamstone-- you are correct that Hagee and Parsley are more prominent and influential than Wright. A Google search explains how often they are referenced in general. However, a Google News search for mccain hagee turns up 543 hits; one for obama wright turns up 2,263 hits.
Your point that Hagee and Parsley are more influential, but receive less coverage than Wright, is well taken. They have larger, more powerful constituencies. Like I said, scary black dudes will always get more media coverage than scary white dudes.
Win,
My point is that if I, a white man, were to run for office, things that my pastor (also white) has said would not be fair game for political attacks. At least, I believe that would be the case, based on the way every other candidate in the past 30 years has been treated. So why is Jeremiah Wright under such fierce attack? Has no presidential candidate's pastor ever said anything controverisal from the pulpit until now?? Absurd. From where I sit, it seems clear that the color of Rev. Wright's (and Sen. Obama's) skin is at least partly responsible for the difference in treatment. Isn't that the very definition of racism??
Peace.
Aquaman - There was an instance when pro-choice campaigners surreptitiously filmed Heny Hyde receiving Communion in order to demonstrate that he was trying to impose his religion on an unsuspecting America. I think some republican candidate or other was heavily criticized for visiting Bob Jones University, or associating with Oral Roberts, too; so the questions about Wright aren't an entirely one-sided, racially motivated attack, necessarily.
I think a point implicit in Obama's rebuttal of the concerns is that Wright's remarks have not been scrutinized in the context of his larger works. One of Obama's comments was that Wright was like an Uncle who occasionally says outrageous things. I think that's the truth. Wright speaks about social justice, and about what he and lot of others believe is the reality of being Black in America. He uses a lot of hyperbole and rhetorical flourishes. Sometimes he says something that, taken at face value, is right out, such as God d- America. He's far from the only liberal to have made the claim that chickens are coming home to roost; and he's not the only preacher to have claimed that Sept 11 represented God's judgment on the US. (He may be one of very few who connected the rossting chickens with God's judgment.) Anyway, Obama seems to see the outrageous comments as the raisins, and the social gospel as the oatmeal. Commentators who are worried about Wright's views seem to see the two or three hyperbolic flourishes as the oatmeal. They may be getting a completely distorted picture of TUCC and Wright. It may be that the good, patriotic, American response to Wright's G-D America comments would have been not to walk out and withdraw one's membership; but to roll one's eyes, and get back about the business of Meals on Wheels.
aquaman,
That is absurd! If a white politician attended a church where the pastor held deep racist beliefs and preached them from the pulpit, the press would be all over it and so would I. Continuing to attend a church where the pastor spews hate equals agreement...period.
Any such criticism by Dreher is really a compliment, David.
BTW, good call by whoever noted that another Rod, the nuttier-than-a-fruitcake Parsley, is claiming to be McCain's "spiritual advisor."
I vaguely remembered that certain of the OT prophets had a few nasty things to say about some unpleasant national realities in then modern Israel. But then I remembered that we're in a different dispensation now so Pastor Wright should be judged by law and not grace.
>
Smurph: I am a member of TUCC; unlike Barack, I WAS in church when Pastor Wright made the "G-d America" remark; and your description above was EXACTLY my response, and I suspect the response of most of the rest of the congregation. Perhaps the video clip that is making the rounds has filtered out the background noise, but there was shocked silence, punctuated by a few gasps and "oooooh" (as in the "I'm telling Mama what you did" kind of 'oooh'), following this declaration. I've been a devoted member for years now, but there's a reason they call it 'preaching to the choir'. Pastor was known for many things, most of them good, but temperance was not one of them. I remember at the time I sighed, said to myself, "ok. whatever", and joined the legal ministry months later, where I found myself in court helping a handicapped man fight off being evicted from his apartment. Very few African-Americans are rah-rah effusively patriotic; we love this country like many others would love a dysfunctional family, for obvious reasons. On the one hand, there is no country I would rather be a citizen of; but on the other hand, don't ask me to tear up at the National Anthem for a country that elected GWB. TWICE.
krs1, I'm glad you posted. From the couple of fuller excerpts I've seen - Andrew Sullivan posted the sermon that used the phrase Audacity to Hope - it was already pretty clear that pundits were making too much of soundbites. The YouTube focused on on young woman standing up, seeming in approval of the comments, but I couldn't tell what the reaction of the majority of the congregation was.
I'm an Irish Catholic from the suburbs, but I have -- by coincidence, when I was going through a miserable time at a particular job, the friends who helped me get through it, who I could trust as colleagues and as human beings -- were all African American: three colleagues at work, and the spouses of two of them. One, the single guy, kind of felt like it was his mission to explain the Black experience to his white friends - not that that was all he talked about, by any means. He said about what you said concerning African-American patriotism. We are US Marines. There was no doubt about my friend's dedication to duty and to his fellow Marines; but to him it was more for himself and his family, than for the USA.
Another - I went to her wedding, met her Mom and two of her sisters, and learned, to my shock (not surprise, exactly, because I wasn't ignorant - but never closed the circuit in a personal way) that at the same time I was reading in a second grade primer about Martin Luther King, Jr, and walking away with the impression that King was a Great American of the Past, and that Civil Rights was a done deal (I was born in 1969!); my friend and her sisters, all close to my own age, did not have a swimming pool to go to in their town in Mississippi, because the white population preferred closing the pool to integrating it. The third friend and his wife, also about the same age, said that their experiences of whites and integration, growing up in SC, were much more positive.
I don't really have a conclusion to make - just that these particular friends, and my sister-in-law have taught me a lot. I hope that Obama's candidacy will help the country, as a whole, come to better mutual understanding. If he is elected - I hope it will shatter a glass ceiling. I mean, I am grateful to live in the times I do, because 30 years earlier, I might not have had the opportunity to have those friends. Neither of my parents would have been likely to marry an African American; but my brother did. I think my niece and nephew will grow up in world with no doubt that they can be president if that's where talent and elbow grease take them. But they are 7 and 4. There's things to do in the meantime.
I agree with David that we're missing the bigger issues of justice, racism and poverty. I don't here much about "do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God," especially from conservatives, blogs or otherwise. We're really into this political season, and it's easier to talk the talk then to walk the walk. Ironically, the more time I spend reading blogs -- and sometimes responding -- the less time and energy I'll have to consider the aforementioned issues. But they are part of the core of Christian faith, I believe.
krs1:
The country only elected GWB once, of course, and some people still think there was funny business in Ohio in 2004 ...
Seriously, thank you for sharing. For myself, I thought the speech was brilliant.
Rod Dreher wanted "Checkers"? That so blew away "Checkers" it's not even funny ...
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