First, let me assure every reader that the Democratic Party and the Republican Party and every other party can do anything they want or nothing at all to formally recognize the religious in their midst. Second, let me assure you that I am quite uncomfortable with this Sunday's interfaith gathering at the Democratic Convention in Denver.
The Rev. Leah Daugtry, who just happens to be the CEO of the convention, told reporters today: "With all due respect to the commentators and the media, we didn't need to bring faith to the party. It was already there." I certainly believe that. I have known many Democratic members of Congress and state legislators who take their faith profoundly seriously--whether they talk about it in public or not. With all due respect to the Rev. Daugtry, though, the people who didn't understand that before today may not get it now either. Why? Precisely because this looks so orchestrated and was so highly promoted that it had the whiff of pandering.
It was diverse and to some observers this showed how different the Democrats are from Republicans. This is a dangerous argument because even the late Jerry Falwell frequently shared the stage with rabbis, including the controversial Daniel Lapin. Other evangelicals in the Bush administration have made common ground with conservative Muslims at the United Nations on issues that harm womens' equality here and around the world.
The diversity of "viewpoints" of the speakers also seemed a tad theatrical. Sure, let Rabbi Tzvi Hesch Weinreb suggest that the Democrats embrace "school choice" knowing that most in the party will always oppose school vouchers and tutiton tax credit schemes for no grander reason than that they don't improve academic performance. Invite Bishop Charles E. Blake of The Church of God in Christ to assert his anti-choice position on abortion because even though it will be greeted with only a smattering of applause, it will lead to a standing ovation when he adds, predictably for him, that too many so-called "pro-life" politicians "refuse to recognize their responsibility and the responsibility of the nation, to those who have been born
As a political liberal I would have been a lot happier if I had heard some of the speakers take the party of which most are members to task for a few things. Sr. Helen Prejean, the world renowned advocate for abolition of the death penalty might have criticized even Senator Obama for his disagreement with the recent Supreme Court decision that struck down a Louisiana death sentence for a child rapist. If the state doesn't have the moral authority to kill, it does not gain it by the heinousness of the crime. Other speakers might have chastized the party for squandering the political capital of 2006--and not voting time and again to stop the war in Iraq even if the President vetoed every one of its efforts. That's the true prophetic voice from the pulpit--reminding not just the executive but the lawmakers when their efforts fall short of the call to justice.
DEMS HAD AND GOT RELIGION
Sunday August 24, 2008
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About Lynn v. Sekulow
Lynn v. Sekulow is an ongoing debate blog--a blogalogue--about how big (or little) a role faith and religion should play in American politics and government, featuring the two leading voices of the church/state battle: American Center for Law & Justice Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow and Americans United for Separation of Church and State Executive Director Rev. Barry W. Lynn.
Please note that in discussing political issues, candidates’ positions and political party statements, the Rev. Barry Lynn and Jay Sekulow are offering analysis in their individual capacities as lawyers and commentators. They are not speaking on behalf of Americans United for Separation for Church and State or for the American Center for Law & Justice. Those organizations do not endorse or oppose candidates for public office. Nothing contained in this dialogue should be construed as the positions of the respective organizations.
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Rev. Barry W. LynnExecutive Director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a nonprofit educational organization that defends religious liberty by opposing government interference in religion
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Mike said: I was listening to you on Jay's show today and I applaud you for having this dialog with Jay. A great number of liberals would not do this as a good portion of their positions are so hard to justify or defend.
Boris says: "The influences that have lifted the race to a higher moral level are education, freedom, leisure, the humanizing tendency of a better-supplied and more interesting life. In a word, science and liberalism... have accomplished the very things for which religion claims the credit. - E. Haldeman-Julius. It is conservatism that is indefensible. Liberalism has a very good track record so far.
Mike said: That being said here comes the "but". You made the comment that you didn't like the Saddleback forum because you wanted to hear the "issues" discussed rather than the candidates Government look on the citizens as mere cosmic accidents that had no more value than a turnip resulting in the deaths of millions because the "greater good" (read the governments goals) was more sacred than human life.
Boris says: We are indeed cosmic accidents, star matter that got cold by accident and to the rest of the universe which doesn't even know what a turnip is we have no value at all. But people don't go into public service thinking that human life and well-being is not of the utmost importance.
Mike said: The second falacy you make is that freedom of religion means that there should be no entaglement with government and religion which is impossible not to mention not found in the constitution. One doesn't check their belief system at the door when they are elected to office. As I said one's beliefs inform everything they do.
Boris says: Our founders made it quite clear that there should be no entanglement of religion and government.
Mike said: As many of the founding fathers believed we should prefer Christians as our leaders.
Boris says: I would ask Mike to name exactly which founders preferred our leaders be Christians. Jefferson, Adams, Franklin, Washington, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine all believed Christianity was a human tragedy. So who are these 'founding fathers' exactly Mike? Name them please.
Would you prefer a Christian as a president or someone of the Islamic sects that fly airplanes into buildings? (This where someone brings up the crusades and the inquisition which, even if true, happend hundreds of years ago, no longer happen and have no relevance to our current country and election as Christians in this country do not participate in these things)
Religion is not only an issue, but as always, is THE issue.
Boris says: Our Christian president is responsible for far more innocent people getting killed in his response TO the attack on 9-11 than the attackers were. What we need for world peace are atheist leaders who don't want to kill each other over religious beliefs.
Even IF the Crusades and Inquisitions are true? Religion was certainly THE issue during the much more recent fundamentalist Christian Crusade also, which happened when Adolph Hitler and his evangelical Christian accomplices slaughtered 6 million Jews and 5 million other non-Christians as well. But is definitely wrong to blame modern Christians for abuses of their religion by a power hungry mad man in this more recent case as well. It should alert people to the dangers of religion though, and help us move towards a more secular and therefore safer world.
Mike said: I was listening to you on Jay's show today and I applaud you for having this dialog with Jay. A great number of liberals would not do this as a good portion of their positions are so hard to justify or defend.
Boris says: "The influences that have lifted the race to a higher moral level are education, freedom, leisure, the humanizing tendency of a better-supplied and more interesting life. In a word, science and liberalism... have accomplished the very things for which religion claims the credit. - E. Haldeman-Julius. It is conservatism that is indefensible. Liberalism has a very good track record so far.
OK, DEFEND ABORTION. WHO IS HALDEMAN-JULIUS AND WHY DO WE CARE WHAT HE THINKS? IS THIS THE SAME SCIENCE THAT DETERMINED THAT UNBORN BABIES ARE NOT HUMAN? (Sorry for the caps, just trying to distigush my comments from the rest)
Mike said: That being said here comes the "but". You made the comment that you didn't like the Saddleback forum because you wanted to hear the "issues" discussed rather than the candidates Government look on the citizens as mere cosmic accidents that had no more value than a turnip resulting in the deaths of millions because the "greater good" (read the governments goals) was more sacred than human life.
Boris says: We are indeed cosmic accidents, star matter that got cold by accident and to the rest of the universe which doesn't even know what a turnip is we have no value at all. But people don't go into public service thinking that human life and well-being is not of the utmost importance.
CARE TO BACK THAT UP WITH SOME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE? BTW, THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT, YOU ARE NOT GETTING MY VOTE FOR OFFICE!
Mike said: The second falacy you make is that freedom of religion means that there should be no entaglement with government and religion which is impossible not to mention not found in the constitution. One doesn't check their belief system at the door when they are elected to office. As I said one's beliefs inform everything they do.
Boris says: Our founders made it quite clear that there should be no entanglement of religion and government.
REALLY? CARE TO QUOTE THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT THAT STATES THIS? HOW ABOUT THE FIRST CHIEF JSUTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
Religion is not only an issue, but as always, is THE issue.
Boris says: Our Christian president is responsible for far more innocent people getting killed in his response TO the attack on 9-11 than the attackers were. What we need for world peace are atheist leaders who don't want to kill each other over religious beliefs.
WHAT YOU SAID HERE IN NO WAY ADDRESSES MY COMMENT, JUST THE FACT THAT YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST PROVES THAT RELIGION (OR THE BANNING OF IT) IS THE IMPORTANT ISSUE TO YOU!
Even IF the Crusades and Inquisitions are true?
WELL, LET ME CLARIFY MY COMMENT, WHAT I MEAN IS THAT THE CRUSADES AND THE INQUSITION DID OCCUR BUT THE ATHEIST VERSION OF THEM IS NOT TRUE. THE HOLY LAND WAS THE POSSESION OF THE JEWS UNTIL BEFORE THE TIME OF JESUS AND THEN WAS THE POSSESION OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (WHICH BECAME CHRISTIAN) UNTIL MOHAMMED INVENTED ISLAM ABOUT 650 AD AND INVADED IT AND STOLE IT FROM THE CHRISTAINS. THE CRUSADES WERE AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE ISREAL BACK AFTER THE MUSLIMS TOOK IT AND MASSACRED EVERY LIVING THING INSIDE THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM. MAINLY CHRISTIANS THAT DIDN'T GO ALONG WITH THE STATES VERSION OF "CHRISTIANITY" WERE THE VICTIMS OF THE INQUISITION.
Religion was certainly THE issue during the much more recent fundamentalist Christian Crusade also, which happened when Adolph Hitler and his evangelical Christian accomplices slaughtered 6 million Jews and 5 million other non-Christians as well. But is definitely wrong to blame modern Christians for abuses of their religion by a power hungry mad man in this more recent case as well.
PLEEEEEESE! DON'T GIVE ME THE "HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN" JUNK. THE RELIGION OF THE THIRD RIECH WAS A RETURN TO THE OLD NORSE/ARYAN THOR/ODIN RELIGIONS OF ANCIENT GERMANY. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY PUT A SWASTIKA ON THIER FLAGS RATHER THAN A CROSS???? ABOUT FOUR MILLION CHRISTIANS WERE EXECUTED BY THE NAZI'S SUCH AS BONHOFFER. HECK, EVERY TIME THE POPE SPOKE OUT AGAINST HITLER HE WOULD ROUND UP THOUSANDS OF PRIESTS AND EXECUTE THEM AS PUNISHMENT!
It should alert people to the dangers of religion though, and help us move towards a more secular and therefore safer world.
WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT. I AM NOT VOTING FOR ANY ATHEISTS. WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ATHEISTS COME TO POWER SUCH AS MAO, STALIN AND LENIN. THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF ABOUT 120,000,000 PEOPLE. THEY MAKE HITLER AND "GEORGE THE TERRIBLE" LOOK LIKE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!! SO MUCH FOR YOUR "SAFER SECULAR WORLD"!
IF YOU NEED ANY MORE HISTORY LESSONS PLEASE LET ME KNOW! lol
MIKE
OK, DEFEND ABORTION.
Boris says: First YOU defend forcing women to undergo a 9 month pregnancy they don't want to endure and then giving birth to a child they never want to see. Then convince me you aren't doing this to keep power out of the hands of women but rather for your concern for the unborn. Then tell me about how if men had babies and you got pregnant no one, NO ONE, would tell YOU what to do with YOUR body. Now tell me you're not a hypocrite. Poof, there goes YOUR indefensible position.
WHO IS HALDEMAN-JULIUS AND WHY DO WE CARE WHAT HE THINKS?
E Haldeman-Julius was the editor of a muckraking newspaper Appeal to Reason. If you need any more history lessons let me know. We care what he thinks in this case because it can be shown to be true.
IS THIS THE SAME SCIENCE THAT DETERMINED THAT UNBORN BABIES ARE NOT HUMAN? (Sorry for the caps, just trying to distigush my comments from the rest)
Science never determined any such thing. This matter is still hotly debated as you must know.
CARE TO BACK THAT UP WITH SOME EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE? BTW, THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT, YOU ARE NOT GETTING MY VOTE FOR OFFICE!
There is plenty of empirical evidence for what people are made of if that's your question. What point of yours did I prove? Name it and claim it. Don't be so vague trying to pretend you're winning a debate here. Because you aren't.
REALLY? CARE TO QUOTE THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT THAT STATES THIS? HOW ABOUT THE FIRST CHIEF JSUTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
"The government of the united States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." -The Treaty of Tripoli.
"The United States of America should have a foundation free of the clergy." - George Washington
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man... perverted into an engine for enslaving mankind... a mere contrivance [for the clergy] to filch wealth and power to themselves." - Thomas Jefferson
WHAT YOU SAID HERE IN NO WAY ADDRESSES MY COMMENT, JUST THE FACT THAT YOU RESPONDED TO MY POST PROVES THAT RELIGION (OR THE BANNING OF IT) IS THE IMPORTANT ISSUE TO YOU!
Religion is important because it is dangerous and evil not to mention false. I don't want to ban it because I believe in freedom of thought. I just want to see religion keep dying its natural death as it has been doing ever since Galileo struck it with a mortal blow. The air has been going out of the balloon slowly ever since.
WELL, LET ME CLARIFY MY COMMENT, WHAT I MEAN IS THAT THE CRUSADES AND THE INQUSITION DID OCCUR BUT THE ATHEIST VERSION OF THEM IS NOT TRUE.
How come whenever the truth is told about very well documented Christian atrocities it's always an atheist version? How come we can't ever substantiate the Christian revisionist version with known facts? Because it's never true perhaps?
THE HOLY LAND WAS THE POSSESION OF THE JEWS UNTIL BEFORE THE TIME OF JESUS AND THEN WAS THE POSSESION OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE (WHICH BECAME CHRISTIAN) UNTIL MOHAMMED INVENTED ISLAM ABOUT 650 AD AND INVADED IT AND STOLE IT FROM THE CHRISTAINS. THE CRUSADES WERE AN ATTEMPT TO TAKE ISREAL BACK AFTER THE MUSLIMS TOOK IT AND MASSACRED EVERY LIVING THING INSIDE THE WALLS OF JERUSALEM. MAINLY CHRISTIANS THAT DIDN'T GO ALONG WITH THE STATES VERSION OF "CHRISTIANITY" WERE THE VICTIMS OF THE INQUISITION.
No part of Palestine was ever in possession of the Jews until 1948. I'm a Jew. I think I know the history of my ancestors a little better than someone who thinks he can just rewrite history any way he wants as you are doing. FYI no one believes a word you type - even you.
PLEEEEEESE! DON'T GIVE ME THE "HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN" JUNK.
Okay, I'll let him do it:
“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)
"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)
"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)
“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
THE RELIGION OF THE THIRD RIECH WAS A RETURN TO THE OLD NORSE/ARYAN THOR/ODIN RELIGIONS OF ANCIENT GERMANY.
That is quite an indefensible lie in light of the quotes above now isn't it sir?
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY PUT A SWASTIKA ON THIER FLAGS RATHER THAN A CROSS????
Why did all the German soldiers where a buckle that says 'God is with us'? The swastika is simply Hitler's version of the Christian cross.
ABOUT FOUR MILLION CHRISTIANS WERE EXECUTED BY THE NAZI'S SUCH AS BONHOFFER. HECK, EVERY TIME THE POPE SPOKE OUT AGAINST HITLER HE WOULD ROUND UP THOUSANDS OF PRIESTS AND EXECUTE THEM AS PUNISHMENT!
Where is the documentation for this? Whether you are making it up or just repeating Christian historical revisionism, it's still untrue.
WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT. I AM NOT VOTING FOR ANY ATHEISTS. WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ATHEISTS COME TO POWER SUCH AS MAO, STALIN AND LENIN. THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF ABOUT 120,000,000 PEOPLE. THEY MAKE HITLER AND "GEORGE THE TERRIBLE" LOOK LIKE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!! SO MUCH FOR YOUR "SAFER SECULAR WORLD"!
Can you document this figure of 120,000,000 deaths? Of course not. You've just bought into the D. James Kennedy line of propaganda and lies which is on the Internet and also thoroughly debunked there as well. Do you know how and why people died under COMMUNIST leaders? They starved to death, the weren't murdered. The reason they starved to death was because the governments in control before Lenin and Mao were a dismal failure and people were ALREADY starving to death by the millions. How do you think the communists were able to rally the people to revolt in the first place. Because they were all rich, happy and well-fed? At the end of your rant you admit Hitler was indeed a Christian after insinuating quite falsely that he wasn't. Wow, are you wound up or what?
IF YOU NEED ANY MORE HISTORY LESSONS PLEASE LET ME KNOW! lol
History lessons from someone who makes it up as he goes along? Sure! ROFL!
Mike, much of your post is so silly it deserves to be debunked twice.
REALLY? CARE TO QUOTE THE FOUNDING DOCUMENT THAT STATES THIS? HOW ABOUT THE FIRST CHIEF JSUTICE OF THE SUPREME COURT: "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
John Jay, first Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court
First, I looked that quote up and it's from a letter - hardly a "founding document." John Jay also noted the fact that there weren't many Christians in Congress and our "Christian nation" had failed to elect a Christian president.
“Whether our religion permits Christians to vote for infidel rulers is a question which merits more consideration than it seems yet to have generally received either from the clergy or the laity. It appears to me that what the prophet said to Jehoshaphat about his attachment to Ahab ["Shouldest thou help the ungodly and love them that hate the Lord?" 2 Chronicles 19:2] affords a salutary lesson.” [The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, 1794-1826, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1893), Vol. IV, p.365]
Like many Christians John Jay falsely claimed the United States for his religion. Just because Jay said something doesn't make it so. John Jay was simply following in biblical tradition by falsely claiming land that doesn't belong to him and using God as an excuse to do it.
PLEEEEEESE! DON'T GIVE ME THE "HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN" JUNK.
THE RELIGION OF THE THIRD RIECH WAS A RETURN TO THE OLD NORSE/ARYAN THOR/ODIN RELIGIONS OF ANCIENT GERMANY.
The religion of Germany was a return to that of Martin Luther:
“We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews].”
“What shall we do with…the Jews?…I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings…are to be taken from them.”
“What shall we do with…the Jews?…I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews.”
“What shall we do with…the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.”
“What shall we do with…the Jews?…set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them.”
“What shall we do with…the Jews?…their homes also should be razed and destroyed.”
Now can someone tell me how Adolph Hitler and Martin Luther are any different please? I don't see it.
ABOUT FOUR MILLION CHRISTIANS WERE EXECUTED BY THE NAZI'S SUCH AS BONHOFFER. HECK, EVERY TIME THE POPE SPOKE OUT AGAINST HITLER HE WOULD ROUND UP THOUSANDS OF PRIESTS AND EXECUTE THEM AS PUNISHMENT!
Here are two books written by Catholics, not atheists, about the complicity with and shameful support of the Pope and the Catholic Church for Hitler and Mussolini's Fascist regimes.
Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII
By John Cornwell
Penguin
430 pp, $22 (pb)
The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany
By Guenter Lewy
Da Capo Press
416 pp, $38.95 (pb)
WHICH BRINGS US BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT. I AM NOT VOTING FOR ANY ATHEISTS. WE HAVE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN ATHEISTS COME TO POWER SUCH AS MAO, STALIN AND LENIN. THEY WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATHS OF ABOUT 120,000,000 PEOPLE. THEY MAKE HITLER AND "GEORGE THE TERRIBLE" LOOK LIKE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!!!!!!! SO MUCH FOR YOUR "SAFER SECULAR WORLD"!
You've seen what COMMUNISTS do who happened to be atheists. None of these power-mad dictators did what they did because they were atheists but rather because of political ambitions. The Bible certainly never promotes any kind of democracy but instead tells people to give up all their own possessions for the common good. In other words the Bible clearly promotes communistic rather than democratic societies.
As I have stated before, religion and politics are not separate. People's religious values profoundly affect their political views. Rightly so. Therefore, I do not think forums that bring the two "untouchables" together is not at all bad. Not too many years back, the APA included spirituality in their initial assessment survey screening clients because in today's society, a person's spirituality contributes greatly to their life. A person is composed up of a physical, mental/intellectual, emotional, and spiritual self. If so, then why are we trying to compartmentalize the categories of religion and politics?
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