The trends that Barry cited are interesting, but the Pew Research poll has other important findings that should be noted:
· “Roughly comparable numbers say political leaders express their religious beliefs too much (29%), too little (36%) or the right amount (28%)”;
· “Compared with 2004, there has been a slight increase among the public overall in the number saying there has been too little religious talk from politicians (36% now vs. 31% in 2004), and a ten point increase among Republicans taking this point of view (46% now compared with 36% in 2004)”;
· Those who are comfortable with politicians discussing how religious they are still outnumber those who are not;
· “An overwhelming majority of the public continues to say that it is important to them that a president have strong religious beliefs. More than seven-in-ten Americans express this opinion, and attitudes on this issue have not changed in recent years”;
· “People who view a party as unfriendly toward religion tend to express unfavorable views of that party, while those who see a party as neutral or friendly toward religion are much more positively inclined toward that party overall”;
· “As has been the case throughout the campaign, [religious group] engagement with the current election is considerably higher than in previous years. . . . This increased engagement cuts across most religious groups”;
· “[T]here is little to suggest that social conservatives want religion to be a less important element in American politics”;
· “Social issues, and especially the question of moral values, are more important for white evangelicals than for other voters: 77% say moral values will be very important to their vote, and 54% say this about abortion”;
· “67% say they favor allowing churches and other houses of worship to apply, along with other organizations, for government funding to provide social services, such as job training or drug treatment counseling, to those who need them.”
Regarding the freedom of speech from the pulpit, a pastor or other leader of a house of worship should be accountable to God and his congregation for his speech, not the government. If a pastor is not comfortable discussing moral issues or political candidates, he is not obligated to do so. However, many religious leaders feel compelled to speak out about the moral issues of the day, and they should be able to support or oppose a political candidate, in their capacity as a pastor, based on where the candidate stands on those moral issues. The IRS has acted as the “speech police” for houses of worship for far too long.
One of this country’s most compelling calls to action came from the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. at Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia on July 4, 1965, when he said, “Legislation, executive orders, or judicial decrees will have to control the external effects of bad internal attitudes. Therefore, if we are to realize the American dream, we must continue to work through legislation. So it is necessary for Congress to pass meaningful legislation.” (listen here)
So Barry, on the Sunday before the election, what if a Pastor says, “We all have a civic responsibility to vote. I believe that the issue of abortion is a moral and ethical one that you should consider when you are voting for a candidate. Our church generally shares a pro-life position, which means that we believe that an unborn baby is entitled to human dignity and constitutional protection. This Tuesday, vote your conscience.”
Barry, would the church violate IRS code section 501(c)(3)? Would it be constitutional for the IRS to review the church’s sermons and revoke their tax-exempt status due to the content of their speech?
posted August 22, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Pastors can say whatever they want and endorse whoever they want — they just can’t continue to accept that giant contribution from the government called “tax-exempt status” if they do. The fact is that nearly all churches would rather take the money than the moral choice, “render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar’s and unto God what is God’s”. The truth is that most churches are therefore as morally bankrupt as they would be financially bankrupt without the religious version of corporate welfare…
posted August 22, 2008 at 12:32 pm
“The IRS has acted as the “speech police” for houses of worship for far too long.”
No, churches have served mammon too long. Do they not trust their God to provide the funds needed for them to do what they feel He is calling them to do?
The problem is resolved very simply, Jay. All the church needs to do is inform the IRS that, as of this date, they no longer wish to be considered a tax-exempt organization. They will begin filing the appropriate tax forms, paying the appropriate amounts in taxes on their property and income, and then they can say whatever they wish from the pulpit. If they are doing God’s work, God will bless them with more than enough money to pay the extra taxes.
The only reason I can see for them to fear this approach is that they, deep in their heart, know that it is not God calling them to make these statement. Rather it is their own biases and prejudices that seek to be preached.
posted August 22, 2008 at 12:38 pm
That’s a good point, ds0490. Do the churches trust that God will enable them to accomplish that to which He calls them? If they are being called of God to preach against a certain candidate, they should do so with boldness and authority, regardless of the IRS decision in the matter.
For that matter, they cannot serve two masters. They should renounce their tax exempt status and trust God to open the storehouse of heaven to them as they do His work. Think of it…churches across the land throwing off the yoke of tax laws to preach the message of the Gospel without fetter. Think of how powerful that would be!
posted August 22, 2008 at 2:50 pm
The problem with giving tax money to churches without restrictions is: Are you going to give the same money to masques without restrictions as well?
If you don’t then you are creating a president for a government sponsored religion and THAT is against the American Constitution.
You can’t have it both ways, either you restrict all or you restrict none. Take your choice.
I favor to err on the side of caution rather that promote a government sponsored religion.
posted August 22, 2008 at 3:39 pm
The path for any group which wishes to influence elections is for them to speak up, knock on doors, pass out literature, etc. and make their case. There are a variety of laws that may govern this activity. Groups may need to register and file financial reports. It depends on what the group does, how it does it, and what it says. Being a church, or hospital, or union, or corporation does not generally shield the organization from following the laws relating to electioneering. If individuals (e.g., pastors, church members, etc.) want to form groups that influence elections, they are free to do that. Of course, they need to follow the laws. The difficulty comes when a pastor, for example, uses his position in his church to carry out certain political activities. The pastor needs to keep these roles straight and separate. If they are comingled, the church should lose the significant tax support they receive from me and other taxpayers.
posted August 22, 2008 at 8:09 pm
We are the church! We are not removed from our political policies where ever we go! We shall not be silent or removed no more from where we go. We lead with strength and determination to contribute life and love in our government and policies. The idea that someone could try and dictate what I would say or not say from a pulpit is ludicrous! I hope that individuals can let the Lord shine and bring forth his determined destiny for each and every individual. Which can not be determined by anybody else but the Lord. Our nation will return to order and prosperous views determined by leaders which we determine with holy views . That is why the idea of letting our national leaders with the idea of murder or removing God out us in our leadership is completely insane. That is why when you let opinions which are contrary to life would get an environment which consist of murder. Love is not murder. Love in our policies is the only way to go. Which does not consist of murder, homosexuality, funding abortionist, either through the morning after pill or flat out premeditated murdering the unborn!
Cara Floyd
posted August 22, 2008 at 8:16 pm
I understand where you are coming from. However, in the political realm it is not the Lord that grants our churches tax exemptions–it is the Internal Revenue Service. You can try to change the rules, or not accept tax exemption (some churches don’t), but churches have no “special right” to tax relief anymore than a birdwatching society or a community theater.
posted August 23, 2008 at 12:20 am
“You can try to change the rules, or not accept tax exemption (some churches don’t), but churches have no “special right” to tax relief anymore than a birdwatching society or a community theater.”
Exactly. And if these churches had half as much faith in their God as they claim they did, they would tell the IRS to take a flying jump, renounce their tax exempt status, and trust their God to provide the money to pay their taxes.
I mean seriously, if the account of Jesus telling Peter to get their tax money from the mouth of a fish is literally true, then God surely can provide a little extra in the offering plate to pay the tax man so your pastor can endorse a “godly” candidate.
Or is the problem really that conservative Christians do not believe that God will bless their efforts? Do they believe in their heart of hearts that their efforts really are not designed to bring glory to Him but, rather, to bring power and prestige to them? Do they really know that GOD is not the beneficiary of their actions, but rather GOP?
If you have faith like a mustard seed, you will tell that nasty IRS to take their tax exempt status and stick it. If you are doing what God has called you to do, will he not bless you in it?
Or is all that stuff about faith, obedience, and putting God first just fluff for Sunday sermons?
posted August 23, 2008 at 12:24 am
“Which does not consist of murder, homosexuality, funding abortionist, either through the morning after pill or flat out premeditated murdering the unborn!”
Cara, do you and your church love the unborn children enough to give up your tax exempt status (and all those nice deductions on your own tax forms) in order to truly advocate for them? If so, have your church board send a letter renouncing your tax exempt status to the IRS. That’s all it takes, Cara.
Jesus said that his followers would be called to pick up their cross daily and follow him. Perhaps part of bearing that cross means a few less dollars in your church’s bank account.
Are the unborn children worth that, Cara?
posted August 23, 2008 at 6:21 am
I’m curious as to how homosexuality has anything to do with the murder of the unborn, as cara seems to state.
posted August 23, 2008 at 11:25 am
Not sure. I mean, out of all the people most likely to have an abortion, I would say homosexuals, including couples, are the least. After all, I would imagine most of their pregnancies are planned.
posted August 23, 2008 at 8:35 pm
I find it interesting that most of the commenters are against churches accepting a tax exempt status and speaking about the issues of the day.
First, remember, the IRS did not even exist until last century.
Second, take a look at American history. When our nation was founded, churches were endowed with a great deal more respect than they are today. With good reason. Had the churches had not spoken up – and in fact taken action – there might not have been an American Revolution.
Third, do not some tax-exempt organizations speak their minds with impunity? Why not churches?
Fourth, it is fairly obvious to anyone living in our litigious, ambiguous, and easily offended society that any comment made by a pastor can be subject to litigation. Most churches are not prepared – financially or otherwise – for legal battles, even when they right and within the bounds of the current law. So, many churches are intimidated to simply say nothing.
Finally, the entire concept of sanctuary (or asylum) has its root in churches (long before America). I draw your attention to the Hispanic woman being provided sanctuary by a California church (sorry, I don’t have particulars) with the state threatening sanctions if the church does not give her up.
The bottom line is: if the state can step in and thwart the church’s own mandate to shelter the helpless and save the unfortunate, either through well-0intentioned but misguided law, protracted legal wrangling, or intimidation reminiscent of twenties mobs, when and where will the state stop?
Just a few thoughts…
God bless,
— Anthony
posted August 23, 2008 at 10:10 pm
It isn’t just, indeed, it isn’t primarily income tax that churches are exempt from.
They’re also exempt from property tax. And that’s been around a wee bit longer.
posted August 24, 2008 at 1:45 am
Am I completely missing something. Isn’t it a Pastors responsibilty to
teach how the religion he professes affects the decisions we make in all aspects of our lives? How is stating what the issues are and what side of an issue aligns with the teaching of church constitute any problem with separation of church and state? Aren’t we as citizens suppose to vote based on what a candidate views are on issues that concern us? Wasn’t the original purpose for public education to teach our children to have the decision making skills to enable them to be good citizens? Isn’t a major part of being a good citizen the the ability to choose our leaders? How do you make any decision on major issues without evaluating how they fit in with your beliefs or views.
posted August 24, 2008 at 2:18 am
You can make your decisions any way you want. Your pastor can say what he wants from his pulpit.
He just isn’t guaranteed to be tax-free while doing so.
posted August 24, 2008 at 9:03 am
Anthony: “The bottom line is: if the state can step in and thwart the church’s own mandate to shelter the helpless and save the unfortunate, either through well-0intentioned but misguided law, protracted legal wrangling, or intimidation reminiscent of twenties mobs, when and where will the state stop?”
No, Anthony. The bottom line is that the IRS only has that power with the churches give it. If the churches renounce their tax-exempt status, the IRS has no power over their message at all.
This is what Jesus taught about serving mammon and God. You cannot serve two masters, for you will end up honoring one and ignoring the other. Churches today love money more than God (which probably explains why they are less respected today than they used to be). If they loved God as much as they said they do, they would tell the IRS to go away, give up their tax-exempt status, and trust God to provide the money.
Doesn’t the Bible teach that God will provide for the needs of those who serve him? Didn’t Jesus demonstrate that by sending Peter to get their temple tax from the mouth of a fish? If God is calling your church to speak out in a way that will cost it the tax exempt status, don’t you believe God will provide for the money necessary to pay the taxes?
Where is your faith, Anthony?
posted August 26, 2008 at 11:55 am
As a lay-person I am somewhat overwhelmed by my ignorance of the legalities involved within the discussion. I have pondered and searched the scriptures, especially since the campaign trail began, and as one who seeks Christ and stumbles daily I now feel that much of this means absolutely nothing to the Living God. Please do not read between the lines because I am not anti-government as all powers and principalities are ordained of God for a season.
I asked myself, “If living among Jesus and his followers, and given the chance to vote for the next Caesar… would we find them debating the issues of government or the things of God?” I can’t seem to get a clear picture (according to scripture) of Christ and his disciples even registering to vote. I do see that Jesus came to go about the work the Father gave him to do and it was always in the realm of the spirit and nothing to do with the ways of the world and the governments of them. He did tell those that followed him to be under subjection to the powers that the Father had ordained, and he seemingly pushed the ruling powers aside when he told a follower “Go down to the waters, grab a fish, take the coin from its mouth and pay Caesar with it”.
The unfortunate thing for religion in America is that their very survival depends upon the tax cuts given to them by the government, and Christ was not going to accept the gifts of anyone. His Church was not to be governed by senators in Rome or any other form of government. They were to be governed by the Supreme Father in spirit and truth not the Supreme Court. All religious shepherds should be able to speak the truth (the one from above) about any subject they wish but fear of retribution and loss will always bring them to their knees. As long as Christ is head of his body the true church, he will never accept the gifts of men because he knows what is in the heart of man.
I’ve had a hard time writing this because of every argument against what I am feeling. I also in my lifetime thought it was my “duty to vote”; I also thought those that did not vote were “un-American”, etc. As I considered these things I know they were meant to bring shame and humiliation upon those that would not vote; yet I also know, “these accusations are not the fruits of the Holy Spirit but the ways of man”. I have searched and prayed much about what I am saying. I know I was blessed to have been born in this country but as a Christian I have to ask myself, is it only because life is easy for a Christian? My right to speak freely has never been in question in Christ; it was not given to me by mere laws of men in high positions throughout the world. So men will continue to do battle in the ways of the world in order to lay claim for the rights of humans; there will be victories and defeats but Satan will continue to rule a fallen world. I believe the Word of God when he tells us the battle is in the heavens and not earthly and carnal. I have to start sometime.
It appears that the followers of Christ as we read in the scriptures were standing very far from the seat of government, both in mind and spirit. Although they had no vote (as we have choice) in the outcome of the next Caesar I don’t know if our vote is important as God’s will, “will be done”. We are not a part of man’s government; we are a separated people from this world and the ways of it. “If ye were of this world, the world would love his own; but because ye are not of this world, but I have chosen you out of this world, therefore the world hateth you. John, Chapter 15:19. “I pray not for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John Chapter 17:9 “And be not conformed to this world; but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God”. Romans, chapter 12:2
These systems that God has ordained are corrupt and vile by the nature of fallen men who govern; this world is in the hands of Satan, and these are symptoms of the hearts of the men holding seats of position. Jesus tells us, “I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. John, chapter 17:14 “Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now is my kingdom not from hence”. John, chapter 18:36 “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him”. 1 John, chapter 2:15
If I were a shepherd of a flock I would tell them there is more power in prayer than the lever inside the voting booth.
posted August 26, 2008 at 1:26 pm
To Steve Speer: ….. Amen.
posted August 26, 2008 at 5:26 pm
To Steve Speer: I can see that you’ve obviously given this thought, but I still would have to disagree overall. My reasoning for doing so is this… Yes, the world’s systems are corrupt and God’s kingdom is not of this world (therefore not corrupt) and I agree with much of what you say. I just have chosen to go a bit deeper & take it further.
What I mean is this. Jesus and the disciples did not live in a time and place where they were given a vote. That does not mean that He (or they) would not have voted if given the opportunity. God’s kingdom is to be our priority, BUT God’s word also directly instructs us to OCCUPY until the time when we are called out of this world. God gave this world to His children…it’s when we don’t live up to our responsibility that Satan gains ground. The direct reason that there were so many unGodly decisions made by our government in the 60s is that the Church Did Not fulfill it’s calling to OCCUPY this world. Christians decided to be so Heavenly minded that they were NO Earthly good. I am totally convinced that when we are face to face with Jesus we’ll know this: That fact was something that greatly saddened Him. Think of (if you are old enough) how much better it was to live when the worst behavior problems in schools was chewing gum or running through the halls, etc…. Now it’s Columbine…terrorism. Still, we are blessed to be living in a country where we have a vote. That is a blessing from God. With blessing comes responsibility.
Being a good steward of our vote is a God-given responsibility. Consider the Bible story of the master who goes away and leaves each of three servants with a different number of talents. When he returned, it was the servant who HAD NOT used what his master had given him who was rebuked and had his one talent taken away.
We are called to be salt and light to the world…how can this be accomplished if Christians allow only the unGodly to have a voice in how our nation is run? How can it happen if Christians allow our unalienable(God given) rights to be stripped away? Are you aware of the vast amount of ways Satan is attempting to make God’s Church ineffective? If Christians bury their heads in the sand as you propose, he will be successful. If Christians allow our God-given freedoms to be stripped away (like the liberals in the nation ARE trying to do)…the congress WILL be governing the Church.
Don’t you see that throughout the Bible is a story of what God has done & is doing to redeem His Creation? …ALL of His creation. When Jesus came the first time, it was as the suffering Messiah whose mission was to redeem people for God…to do the spiritual part of redeeming God’s creation. When He returns as the reigning Messiah in the second coming, He will be doing the physical part of redeeming the creation…including the Earth itself. Consider that perhaps the command to ‘occupy’ is really job training for what His Church will be doing in the millennial reign of Jesus on Earth.
Besides, your right to speak freely IS in question. There are currently attempts in progress to make it against international law for a Christian to speak the Gospel. This means that you could not quote the Bible…it would be an illegal hate crime to do so. How effective would we be at reaching the world for Christ under those conditions?
I agree that the weapons of our warfare are spiritual and not carnal, but I also notice that there was always something for a person to do in the natural in relationship to the kingdom things performed by God/Jesus. Many times God says “if you will…, then I will…” Many times when miracles were performed the person was told to do this or that thing and then it manifested. We are created in God’s image…we are a spirit, have a soul and reside in a body. Pulling all of the Bible’s lessons together, I have learned that while we are to place the highest priority on the Kingdom of God, we are still to be a good steward of the Earth God created for us and the blessings He has given us in this Earth. We are to do what He has for us to do while we are in the world.
As for Religion and Politics…I agree with Larue. A person’s beliefs and morals directly affect how they will govern…how they will honor the unalienable rights of the people…whether or not they will allow judges to undermine the Constitution and change laws by the decisions they hand down (Remember, judges are to uphold the law…NOT write it. That is the jurisdiction of the Legislative Branch) IF we cannot know what a person’s beliefs are, we cannot make a good decision about which candidate to vote for. We CERTAINLY Can Not listen to campaign speeches to find out; we must examine a candidate’s voting record… after all, actions really do speak louder than words.
Also, a pastor is also an individual citizen and as such has the same right to have an opinion on issues and speak freely – just as any other citizen of the United States does. I personally think it’s best for him to preach the Gospel from the pulpit and if concerned about political issues, let the church have another informational meeting where issues are discussed and voting records examined, etc…. It is because Christians stopped being involved in governing that we even have to discuss things like whether a pastor is legally allowed to be a participant in democracy or not.
posted August 27, 2008 at 10:54 am
Ann C.,
I never implied that Christians should sit idly by and await his coming; you assumed I said that; please read over my words carefully and I will also do likewise with yours. You say you have chosen to take this a bit deeper and further and I felt this was exactly what I was searching for also. I am simply saying there is something much higher and greater a mission for Christ’s body upon this earth than to be entangled in the affairs of this world of which our country is a part. I would rather hoped that we are to occupy our time here doing the will of the Father as Jesus was about his Fathers work. “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.” Ann, I am rather charging that Satan would want all Christians operating in the realm of carnality, and we see this especially across our country; and because we have become so mixed in the affairs of it we accept it as the norm. We might spend 98% of our time listening to endless experts of whom all are right, and all speak about the right candidate, listening to news reporters, scouring newspaper articles and if we might spend the remaining 2% on the things of the Father I would be surprised, and I always search my own heart first. These words I will answer for before God so I try to choose them wisely.
You say, “When we don’t live up to our responsibility that Satan gains ground”, and I would wholeheartedly agree but it seems (by what you wrote) that you are pointing to the responsibilities concerning the ways of the world and not the things of the spirit. This is a very hard thing for me to speak about Ann for the rationalization and the reasoning of the world is against everything I feel in my spirit concerning voting. I did not come to these thoughts over night but by a great deal of prayer and searching the Word of God. I don’t consider these things to be “heavenly minded” or haughty in any way. I pray you are one that I might be able to share with without offences but I do not agree that having a right to vote is a blessing from God. This divides you and me from our brothers and sisters in Christ across this world that have no vote and still count it joy because persecution has come upon them because of their testimony. Had Christ and his followers had a right (given by man) to vote I know in my heart of hearts they would have never gone to the polls… it was not their commission. Jesus knew what is in the heart of man and he knew that voting would never bring a lost soul to the gates of heaven. He had to be about his Father’s business, not the business of the world. I don’t count voting to be a blessing of God rather as the business of a worldly government and the ways of it. My blessing is that he saved my soul and that I might pass his love on to the woman who might be considering abortion, or the fatherless child that no vote will ever accomplish.
The reason man is led of Satan to rid himself of this pest named Jesus is not because of the person of Christ but that nasty little word that always seems to make them squirm. When you speak of Christ you have to speak of sin, and sin is not what fallen man wants to hear of his prideful self. God has a plan and in that plan is the end of this world as we know it. Man will deny the Christ and desire him to leave their villages. After all if we can rid ourselves of this pesky fellow then there will never be any conviction of sin for there can be no conviction when everything is right in the sight of man. No democrat or republican, no government on the face of this earth can save the soul of the fallen no matter the numbers of legislation. It was not the purpose of Christ to change governments, powers and principalities but to change the hearts of man. “We will be hated for his name sake”, whether we are inside or outside of this country, whether we vote or not.
And because I feel this way you say I am proposing that we bury our heads in the sand? Where Ann did you read this? I am saying we should rather bury our heads in the heavens in oneness with the Father where the battle is. Let man have his conventions, let them make promises for tomorrow, let them give the people false hope, let them say peace, peace when there is no peace, let them go about the business of saving this world; but let us go about the will of the Father and not bow down to the ways and means of mans which cannot govern the ways of the Holy Spirit. No government on the face of the world will ever stifle the Word of God. My freedom to speak the gospel of Christ came not by any “freedom of speech act” as those in oppressed countries well know; yet as Paul and the rest of the disciples and followers of Christ they continue to speak because it is the will of the Father. Without fear and trembling believers stand before the Pilate’s and kings of this world, and being led of the Holy Spirit do the will of an Almighty God. They will (as Christ) say the things the Father gives them to say, and they will be persecuted for God’s glory.
There are no “inalienable rights” spoken of in the scriptures as these kind of rights are given by and protected by the laws of man. My right to speak freely in Christ Jesus will never be in question; we are to fear God with a reverent fear. God does not lower his eyes in fear when confronted by mans weapons or laws. As far as fallen man is concerned it has always been an “illegal hate crime” to speak the truth from above when directed at the pride of man. Those in power must do what they must do but the Word of God Almighty will continue to go out across the world with power. There was a king who attempted to stifle the truth of three faithful men by throwing them in a fiery furnace, they went into the fire. They neither bargained for their life nor did they seek legal advice. They were not there to plea bargain with the king. They could not shut the mouth of Stephen by laws or decree, nor Paul or Peter. The prophets of old stuttered before God when given commissions to go and point to the wickedness of nations. Jeremiah, Jonah were overcome with fear of the people yet God set their faces against them. Christ stood before Pilate and looked him in the eyes after being told that “I Pilate have the power to either save you or let you be killed”, to which Jesus replied, “You have no power whatsoever lest my heavenly Father allows it to be done”. In these words Jesus told Pilate that his earthly government was nothing before God Almighty, and what power his government had would be used for his Fathers good pleasure. I can only assume here that Pilate’s jaw broke when it hit the floor.
Ann, I also am trying to look deeper and further. I want no one person to listen to my words if they arise from my own carnality least they be misled. If there is any truth (that truth from above) in what I am sharing then take that only, the rest cast into hell where it belongs. I pray you take no offence; I starve for the wisdom and understanding from above through the brethren.
posted August 27, 2008 at 2:03 pm
to Steve Speer
How can I take offense with you for honestly sharing your perspective on things??? As far as I can tell, we really don’t disagree on a lot. Actually, it seems like we agree on most of what we’re each saying, but mainly disagree on just which actions we should take as a result of our faith.
As I said before, God’s kingdom IS to be our priority and it’s when we don’t live up to (all of) our responsibilities that Satan gains ground in his fight to render Christ’s Church ineffective. I believe we should be mindful of ALL aspects of our lives as Christians and that definitely includes our spiritual responsibility. However, the reason I focused more on the practical side of things is: that is the subject of the forum ‘Religion and Politics”…didn’t mean to imply that was the only side of it.
I really do believe that living in country where we can vote is a blessing from God. That doesn’t mean that I think He favors us more than His children in other places who cannot…it’s just that this country was one where His Influence was once welcomed in forming our government. I believe that the most important blessing of God is absolutely Salvation! I just also believe that He blesses us in many other ways also that touch every area of our life on this Earth until we are with Him.
Apparently some of my remarks were misunderstood. I feel I should apologize here: My ‘Heavenly-minded’ statement was never meant to imply that I thought you haughty…it’s just a saying I heard some time back referring to the fact that there are segments of the Christian community who have put so much emphasis on what it’s going to be like when we are in Heaven, that they are not doing any of the things the Church should be doing to reach this Earth’s population …including trying to spread the gospel, reach out to those in need, etc….
It was never my thought that you chose to ‘sit idly by and await his coming’. My impression of what you were saying was that you have decided (& I understand you did so thoughtfully) to completely disengage from being involved in the political aspect of having a say in how we operate as a nation. I don’t believe this should take up a majority of our time/energies (God’s kingdom IS first in importance), but I do believe we should take part in it.
I think we’re both in agreement with the statement that ‘our individual rights come from God, regardless of what any government on this Earth says’. God is a higher authority than anything on Earth and we agree that even if a country does use the law in an attempt to strip us of those God-given rights we all hold…we are still to proclaim Him. That these rights are God-given is my whole point…we should not let other men take away what was not theirs to give in the first place…but if they do succeed, we must be faithful to God regardless.
I just don’t accept the reasoning that concludes that since these things are true, Christians should avoid interaction with the government’s political system because it is of this world. Obviously, we can’t put our trust in the world’s systems; I just believe that God has things for us to do while we are on this Earth that require us to be involved in the world’s issues…we are to be ‘in’ the world, but not ‘of’ it. We are to be ‘salt’ & ‘light’
You referred to Paul so let’s look at this point he brings to mind…
The gov./leaders of the day weren’t able to make Paul shut up (Yeah, Paul!), BUT he DID appeal to Caesar which was his right as a Roman citizen. That is an example of being interactively involved in a worldly system of government… It’s not showing us an example of the thought that Christ’s followers should just isolate themselves from the world’s governments.
Paul had a calling (as we all do)…he had people to reach and they were not going to be reached if he allowed those directly involved in trying to silence him to win the battle by stripping him of his rights as a citizen. Yes, God’s purpose would’ve still been gained, but if we take one person living today as an example, wouldn’t he/she be more effective in their Christian calling if they don’t have to continually deal with battling a political system that considers them a criminal for following Jesus’ instructions? I think it’s especially important that in (what I believe is) the end times that we’re able to direct our focus as Christians on fulfilling the great commission in the same way we can today. I believe that, sadly, the day will come when it is against the law of this world to speak out for Christianity…I just don’t want to see that happen sooner than it must.
In closing, yes…I am one who can agree to disagree and don’t want to take or cause offense. Please know that if I’ve worded anything in a way that you feel is a negative reflection on ‘you’, I did not mean to do so…only to share another perspective that may or may not enrich your viewpoint. I enjoy honest discussion without feeling that everyone must come to agree with me.
posted August 27, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Ann,
I did not intend to get the discussion away form the topic. I do feel that shepherds of the flock should be able to share political issues in the perspective of Godliness. You have shed some light into my feelings and I am thankful for your openness. Whether it is in a building called a place of worship, a private home, the shepherd I believe has a right in Christ to warn the flock of the dangers which may or may not be hidden in the hearts of the candidates or anyone else that may be an enemy of the Creator.
Again, just because we see the tax breaks for places of worship being the norm does not make the accepting of gifts which have strings attached a righteous move. God has sternly warned us against gifts that demand favors. I believe we’ve built churches upon this shaky foundation right along side our government, our churches are partners with the very government that wants to protect them by shutting them up. I can’t say anything on their behalf because they accepted the bondage themselves other than “come out”. God will not allow his Bride to crumble because of this. At best he will be separating the sheep from the goats. Preachers ought to be shouting from the house tops.
Thanks Ann for sharing your heart on thses matters.
posted August 29, 2008 at 1:06 am
I think I see what you’re saying about churches and tax exemption. I just never thought of it as a gift with strings attached because I always saw it this way:
1. When our country was being founded, the norm in other countries was for whoever headed that nation’s government to interfere in religion, make a ‘state religion’ that everyone must worship, & then use that to dictate to the people and persecute those who disagreed. Our founding fathers were largely Christian and did not want that to ever happen in America and so to prevent it they…
2. Included in the Constitution… wording to protect religious liberty and prevent government infringement or control over churches. It was all about protecting religion from government.
3. Churches are declared tax exempt (originally for good purposes).
4. Later secular, liberal groups come into existence and began a campaign to distort this part of the Constitution and have now been so successful that probably most Americans today really believe that the Constitutional passage was written to keep religion out of politics/government…when truthfully, it is exactly the opposite.
5. As Christians began to hear & understand more about what was going on and then spoke out correctly against these misperceptions, etc… a new plan of attack was formed.
6. They begin to use the churches’ long-standing tax-exempt status as a weapon to try and control churches.
In other (& shorter) words: liberal special interest groups have influenced government agencies and used the Constitution (twisted around) to do the very thing it was meant to prevent.
Because the IRS has allowed itself to be used this way, it’s trying to do things that are unconstitutional to churches/ ministries.
I see gov. agencies being used as the tool of special interests… never really thought of it as a gift from the gov. with strings attached.
I have some thoughts germinating on what it would change (politically speaking -mainly) if a church/ministry was NOT tax exempt… Just…too late & enough said already to go there now… maybe another day…
posted August 30, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Ann,
I have followed your blogs closely. You express yourself very eloquently and have a strong ability to relate the Biblical issues to history and currrent events. I am curious: where does this wisdom come from? Are you a teacher or in some form of ministry? (For my own part, I am a teacher, writer, and former journalist.)
Thanx & God bless,
— Anthony
posted July 6, 2009 at 5:44 pm
I agree that the IRS has been the “speech police” for too long. In regards to the above hypothetical, I think a pastor is absolutely entitled to express their values on moral topics and that it would be acceptable for a pastor to encourage congregants to vote their conscience. As a religious leader, I think a pastor has a duty to express their opinions on moral issues.