I’m sure we’ll debate evolution and intelligent design a great deal more as this blog continues. I met a guy over in the “Emerald Isle” who posed a question more theological than legal, but I told him I’d blog in search of answers.
I see that many of the right of center blogs are still apoplectic about former DNC chair Don Fowler’s overheard conversation which included the line in response to the arrival of Hurricane Gustav: “That just demonstrates that God is on our side.” This neatly layers with filmmaker Michael Moore’s earlier comment: “I was just thinking that this Gustav is proof that there is a God in Heaven…that it would actually be on the way to New Orleans on Day One of the Republican Convention…”.
This is not exactly high-grade comedy; many would find it at least as foolish as Pat Robertson “praying away” a hurricane from Virginia Beach (which later hit parts of New York state) or Jerry Falwell’s claim that the existence of feminists and the ACLU caused God to lift a curtain of protection from the US on September 11. (Ann Coulter said that Senator Edward Kennedy and yours truly were to blame.) But there actually is a difference. See, Fowler and Moore have never demonstrated any belief that God tracks hurricanes or uses them to “prove” anything. But Pat, the late Dr. Falwell and Ann do believe these interventions are true; they even often have some Biblical injunctions to try to prove it.
But this Irish fellow made another observation. Wasn’t George Bush the fellow who told a couple of his cabinet members that he believed he was chosen by God to lead at this time in history. Indeed, Bush did. Now, wait, if God picked George Bush, then God must have been responsible for the Bush Administration’s failures with Katrina. Right? God picked “hell of a job, Brownie” and made sure that Michael Chertoff was flying off to a bird flu conference instead of flying to a drowning New Orleans. This doesn’t seem right. But now, did God send Gustav close to New Orleans to disrupt the Republicans in St. Paul? But did God send Gustav only close, so that George Bush could go to Texas and tape the kind of stuff he should have said pre-Katrina? Did God think that this would ultimately help the Republican ticket which could spend the first day of the convention asking for hurricane aid funds instead of McCain contributions?
Why do Irish people ask this kind of stuff? And, let’s put everything on the table. Didn’t Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi tell us weeks ago that God had picked Obama to lead us at this time? What role did Gustav play in his campaign?
Christians like myself are not Biblical literalists–you’ve probably figured that out already. I also have a reluctance to seriously believe that God manipulates elections (although bad election machines might) and is therefore responsible for all the misdeeds, mistakes, or miscalculations successful politicians make. Maybe this is just one more reason pols should go easy on the God talk.
posted September 2, 2008 at 7:38 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJY0NuBC7vo
The religious calls on people to pray for “torrential rains” for the night of Obama’s acceptance speech. They view this as appropriate for many self-justifying reasons, but basically it boils down to the fact that they believe God is on their side.
I find it quite interesting that not long after this video was released by Focus on the Family, Gustav forms as a tropical depression in the Atlantic Ocean.
Now I am not a believer in God at all. But, if God does exist, and if he wanted to teach the conservative evangelicals in the GOP a lesson or two about using His name in vain, what better way than to send a SERIES of hurricanes to disrupt the GOP convention and the days after it. Yes, I said a SERIES of hurricanes/tropical storms. We have no less than three more forming and moving in the Atlantic Ocean, two of which are expected to hit the US within the next week to ten days.
Meanwhile, on the night of Obama’s acceptance speech…crystal clear skies. An endorsement of Obama…no. A clear and forceful answer to those who would use God’s name for political gain…oh, you betcha.
posted September 2, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I wouldn’t ever try to speak for God-
as people on both the “Left” and “Right” do-
as a native of New Orleans, I am so very grateful this storm didn’t cause the destruction it could have. We were shown mercy this time, and , for that we are grateful.
I do find it rather ironic that an Irishman would lecture us about mixing politics and religion !
God bless-
posted September 3, 2008 at 9:55 am
Storms happen. Does it really matter from where they came? What really matters is whether you left your umbrella at the office.
The simple fact that many of us choose to live on a peninsula dangling in the tropics means we have to accept the ocassional reality of hurricanes. We are here because we have no further interest in sNOw. Life in Paradise comes with a price – storm shutters and hoarding AA batteries.
posted September 3, 2008 at 11:00 am
Barry Lynn said that he is not a biblical literalist. Yet he says he is a Christian. Am I to take that literally or figuratively? I would like to know in Barry Lynn’s own words why he is a Christian and why I should take him literally, if that applies. I would like to know if he ever uses the Bible to preach sermons or if he makes theological or doctrinal statements to define or elaborate his faith. Has Barry Lynn ever preached a red hot sermon on salvation by grace or is that an example of a literal interpretation of the Bible one must avoid? From what I gather the title Reverend in front of his name is not indicative of his faith and calling since he never refers by quote or reference to the greatest of all books The Holy Bible.
posted September 3, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Dear Rev Barry.W. Lynn
Its refreshing to stumble on your site via a political blog..the Daily Dish on theatlantic.com. I am a christian, conservative by American standards (I am not an American citizen). However during this week I became intrigued by the VP nominee Sarah Palin because everywhere I heard she was a christian and hard core conservative. The more I read about her beliefs however the more I became dissapointed and extremely nervous.
What really was eye popping to me was her signing into law a declaration on christian heritage week in Alaska. I am a fierce proponent of sepration of church and state. I believe through Christ’s example that religion should never interfere in politics and government. Jesus showed us a good example when he said’ render unto Ceasar what Ceasar’s and to the Lord what is the Lord’s” When religion became government for the 1260 years of the dark ages, we all know what happened-Spanish Inquisition, burning of heretics, matrydom of Reformers and excommunication of Martin Luther. In the Islamic world, they have problems because of the constant inteference or sometimes the authority of religion over government. Whatever other virtues Sarah palin has, her beliefs in intermingling religion and government should not be celebrated or supported.
As christians we should be very careful about pushing religion into politics. America is the leader of the free world, I do not want it to become a theocracy or a nation where the line between church and state is not drawn. America was founded by those who fled persecution and death in Europe during the dark ages, it should not hijacked by religion. let us instead spread the gospel as Christ commanded us, and that is not through politics. I for one would like to see more christian leaders calling out the christian conservatives pushing for Sarah Palin. America must be reminded of the dangers of uniting religion with state. We are ambassadors of Christ! That and that alone.
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.
posted September 3, 2008 at 7:56 pm
I must agree that the use of the title Reverand by Mr. Barry Lynn could not be because he is christain, it must be some other religion. If he believes the that the Bible is only figuretive and not literal then he must be reading and believing in a much different God than I am. Has he not read that God is the one that sets up governments and takes them down, that is found in Daniel. Mr. Lynn should try reading it. I suppose that since he thinks that the Bible is not literal then Jesus never died on the cross for his sins and mine, that is the literal thing that we as Christains must believe in order to be saved and also be able to call ourselves Christains.
posted September 3, 2008 at 9:22 pm
Richard and Robert,
I don’t know Barry Lynn or what he believes exactly. He does know though, like most Christians, that any religion based on a strict literal interpretation of the Bible falsifies itself. It’s quite easy to prove that events like the Noachian flood, the Passover event, the conquering of Canaan by the Jews, Giants living in Palestine and many of the other fairy tales in the Bible simply never happened. There is not a word about any of these things in any real historical documents nor is there the slightest bit of geological or archaeological evidence for them either. The Bible does have a lot of what we might call truths within its many books. I bet the good Reverend Lynn would be glad to enlighten you two fundamentalists as to what those truths are.
As far as the theology of hurricanes, the Bible says that storms are strictly natural occurrences. When Jesus rebukes the storm the authors are illustrating Jesus’ power over nature. Jesus certainly wouldn’t rebuke a storm sent by the Father (or himself – whatever) now would he?
Robert said: Has he not read that God is the one that sets up governments and takes them down, that is found in Daniel. Mr. Lynn should try reading it.
Fundamentalist Bible thumpers really should actually study what the Bible does say before they use it to support what are always really their own ideas. “They have set up kings, but without my consent, and appointed princes, but without my knowledge” (Hosea 8:4a).
posted September 4, 2008 at 9:29 pm
I would like to address a few differet people who have posted here previous to me.
First, Juliana, as a Christian, fundamentalist American, Thank you for yoru prayers and concern for our country. And though we perhaps do not deserve the title as much as we used to, I think it is safe to say that American Christians do not want a theocracy any morethan you would.. we do however, want the government to stay out of our religious beliefs. That is what the “Separation of Church and State” is about, not keepign religion out of Government. We need your prayers, and appreciate yoru interest, I can say that with assurance.
Boris, you claim that there are fairy tales in the bible that are unsubstantiated..Which I find interesting. There are a few of teh events that we do not have outside documentation for, such as The Reign of certain of the ancient emperors.. strangely, as soon as we start looking for them though, they show up. There is ample evidence in the fossil record of the Flood, including Sea life fossils on the highest slopes of the world. And Findings of Extremely large groups of people… not just in Palestine, but such as the Northmen. And even others in Japan. As a matter of fact, not one single fact, scientific, or historical, has ever been disproven from the bible.I could continue but will leave it at this for the moment to get to the next and more important matter
Boris, you should not accuse others of Misrepresenting the bible, and then in the same paragraph do the same. Hosea is addressed to the people of Isreal at a time when the People were directly ruled by Judges, established by God, and he was addressing their raising up of a nobility that God had expressly forbidden. The Reference to Daniel, is speaking of Gods Sovereign power over all governments. I suggest a book by Way of the master, called “Herman-Who” it will help you with how to read the bible and understand it… instead of drawing incorrect conclusions.
In short. Do not assume that because we, chrsitians, disagree with you, that it is out of stupidity, nor that we lack critical reasoning skills and try to throw out false facts.
Thank you.
posted September 4, 2008 at 11:48 pm
Dewayne,
The trouble with you fundamentalists is you’ll say just about anything to support your absurd superstitions. Then you turn around and demand eyewitness accounts for things that happened millions of years ago. The fact that the Bible refers to a few historical people and places means nothing. Almost all fiction is set in some kind of real land and refers to well-known figures of the day. The historical figures in the Bible such as Cyrus, Herod, Nebuchadnezzar, Sennacherib never did any of the things the Bible said they did but were simply grist for the Bible’s story mill. No history is written with recorded dialog between people in a dramatic setting, religious moralizing, tales of the supernatural, tales of angels and Gods mingling with people, goofy talking animals and bad poetry. If you believe the stories in the Bible then it is obviously YOU who has no critical reasoning skills my friend. I would suggest a book called Mythic Past – Biblical Archaeology and the Myth of Israel by Bible scholar, historian and archaeologist Thomas Thompson, which will help YOU to read the Bible and understand it. Right now you haven’t a clue.
posted September 7, 2008 at 5:10 pm
Well… my rabbi says that there are facts and there is truth. So, did G-d actually speak to Moses from a burning bush? Is that a fact? Probably not. But something extraordinary did happen. The Jewish People devised or received (who knows?) a set of laws to guide their behavior, and they have been pondering and living those laws with love and respect ever since. And that is the truth.
I say (not my rabbi…. I don’t know what he says about this), who cares how they came to have those laws? They have them, and those laws guide them to be a blessed and holy people if they choose to follow them. That’s what’s important.
posted September 7, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Dewayne,
I find it very hypocritical of you creationists to claim on one hand that the fossil record is unreliable and easily misinterpreted until you want to use it to defend one of your religious claims. As far as fossilized sea life being found on mountaintops this is very easy to explain. The process concerned is called ‘uplift’.
When the continental plates collide with each other you sometimes get a process of ‘uplift’ where the land is forced upwards by the tectonic pressure. This is a slow process (taking millions of years) but eventually can result in low-lying land being raised up to form mountain ranges.
It is also worth noting that where sea-fossils are found on such mountains they are generally found deep in the rock layers – not on the top. This indicates that the fossils were laid down before the uplift occurred.
The issue is often cited by creationists as evidence of a global flood but, like other such claims, it doesn’t ‘hold water’.
Your claim that the Bible hasn’t been thoroughly refuted by modern scholarship is a bold-face lie and you know it too. The supposed Passover event went completely unnoticed and unreported by the Egyptians. This proves that it simply never occurred. Since the Passover event is a fiction we might easily assume, based on the implausibility of the stories in the Bible and the fictional style they are written in, that the rest of the Bible is a bunch of religious nonsense and lies also. Modern scholarship has shown that is exactly what it is but it didn’t have to. Common sense alone tells us the Bible is nonsense.
posted September 9, 2008 at 11:10 am
Boris,
Boris the reason for my comments and questions about Barry Lynn is that like you I to would like to know exactly what he believes. The question is not posed to you. Quite obviously you don’t know what he believes either. If the good Reverend would be happy to enlighten we fundmentalists then let him do so. Quote the Bible! Refer to Christian history, doctrine, theology and sermon. A fundamentalist Boris is someone who believes in the fundamentals of something such as sport (the rules of that sport), science (laws of that science, driving on the road or some such discipline. In that sense we are all fundamentalists of one kind or another. And yes I am proud to be a fundamentalist of the Holy Bible. But again the Rev. Barry Lynn is a Reverend of what?
posted September 9, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Richard,
We are not all fundamentalists about something and religious fundamentalism is quite different than any other kind of fundamentalism. It’s the same with beliefs. Religious beliefs are quite different than regular less dogmatic beliefs. A fundamentalist of the Bible is just someone who hasn’t read it with critical mind.
“Men are idolaters, and want something to look at and kiss, or throw themselves down before; they always did, they always will; and if you don’t make it of wood, you must make it of words.” – Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.
“There is a sort of transcendental ventriloquy through which men can be made to believe that something which was said on earth came from heaven.” – Georg Christoph Lichtenberg
Despite the claims of leading creationist spokesman Gerardus Bouw, head of the Association for Biblical Astronomy, the earth does rotate and is not stationary, and the sun does not orbit it as Bouw shows several Bible passages clearly imply.
posted September 10, 2008 at 12:21 pm
Boris,
I hope when you drive on the road, if you drive, that you follow the fundamentals of driving. When you go to the doctor, hopefully, he or she will follow the fundamentals of their medical profession. In order for us to have this correspondence we must follow the fundamentals of grammar, otherwise we make things up as we go along. Even you cannot get away from fundamentals unless you make everything up as you go along. So yes everyone, unless he or she is an anarchist, follows principles, laws, rules and disciplines of one sort or another. I just don’t have the faith to dismiss the fundamentals of Scripture that you have. However even an anarchist follows fundamentals made up by their own reasoning. Evidences for Scripture are icing on my faith not the substance of it. It is not my responsibility to prove Scripture but as Jesus said to His disciples, “and you shall be my witnesses”. I am to bear witness of its truths not prove them since proof nor ideas nor knowledge has or ever will lead anyone to a saving faith in Jesus Christ. Only when we confront our lostness and need for Him will Christ prove Himself and His Word and save us of our sins. Christ does not need me to prove Him since He can prove Himself. Those fundamentals were not made up by me but shared to me by witnesses of Christ who received that witness by others who came before them. That is why I pose the question concerning the Reverend. He is a Reverend or a witness of what?
posted August 10, 2009 at 8:31 pm
http://www.discoveringjesusfishing.net
Just because one Irish person asked a particular question, do not generalize this stance to that of the whole Irish population. This is quite unfair.
Because of sin, God ALLOWS certain things to happen but is not the cause of them. Sometimes, God punishes sin with physical acts, but certainly this is not the case every time and probably is the exception versus the rule. If there was no sin, we would have no hurricanes, tornadoes, abortion, or atrocious national health care proposals.