A proposed regulation from the Department of Health and Human Services regarding health care workers' religious "rights" is already causing considerable controversy--and it should! The Department placed the rule on display Aug. 21 for a 30-day public comment period. The comments will be reviewed before the Department puts forth a final regulation.
The regulation never should have been released for public comment and ought to be discarded in a circular repository for bad constitutional law and bad medical science.
The regulation is, to quote the draft, based on claims that health care workers are now "required to violate their conscience by promoting or assisting in the provision of controversial medicine or procedures." To stop this, the regulation would prohibit any funds going to institutions or even states that don't grant this sweeping exemption from duty. Now, abortion is a "procedure," so what is a "controversial medicine"? It seems clear to me that it is any drug that the Religious Right and its allies considers an "abortifacient"--an abortion inducing substance.
But wait. You don't
have to accept my characterization. An
earlier draft leaked to the press actually defined "abortion" to include "the
prescription, dispensing and administration of any drug...that results in the
termination of life of a human being in utero between conception and natural
birth, whether before or after implantation."
As noted by Representative Tom
Allen on The Hill Congress Blog, nothing in the published regulation contradicts this broad
definition. In addition, as per Jay's previous comments on this matter in our
discussion of a
As Jill Morrison over at the National Womens'
Sadly, I don't think we'd be imagining this for long--it is likely the intent of the drafters to make this happen.
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Jesse,
You said: So are you saying that a fetus that's about to be aborted is not human, not unique not innocent, or not life? Which is it not?
Boris says: A fetus is a potential human, potentially unique, potentially innocent, potentially life.
You said: I'm in the USA. I don't know where you are. But in USA, I can legally drive anything up and down the driveway on my own property as much as I want. It doesn't even need to be street legal. I don't even need a driver's license. That's what property rights are all about.
Boris says: Property rights? Do you think you have the right to own property too? Don’t pay the taxes on your house for a few months and you will find out who really owns your property fella, and it ain’t you. ROFL!.
You said: Could you please substantiate that claim? Driving on public roadways is often said to be a privilege and not a right, but on one's own property it's entirely different - people have the right to be an and drive on their own property!
Boris says: Could you please substantiate that claim.
You said: You're the one who said that murder requires physical force. Poison disproves that.
You're the one who said that a person doesn't have the right to drive on their own property. That one's just absurd and wrong. I don't know how you could have said that one. (I'm from the country. People here own big chunks of land with long driveways on their own property.)
You're the one who said that the Bible clearly states that the earth is flat - but heretofore refuse to show me just where it clearly states that.
Boris says: Prove those verses say the earth moves and isn’t flat. Your proofs are hilarious.
You said: So? not very many people are on this blog. Besides, I think Sheila agrees with me that an unborn human fetus is a human being.
Boris says: Sheila probably believes in the same stupid boogymen you do.
You said: So what of a planet travels at something other then a circular orbit? the earth is still moving through space on an exact course determined by the masses and movements of everything in the universe. The Bible doesn't say that the orbit is perfectly circular. And by the way, the path that my GPS antenna takes on my car roof as my car drives around isn't circular either - bit it's still fixed to the top of my roof and does not move from there!
Boris says: So the Bible is wrong when it says the earth cannot be moved right? Since the Bible is wrong about that why should we believe any of it?
You said: Which isn't true? that a fetus is 100% human? or that it's in the state of being? (existing)
Boris says: The first statement is a lie Jesse.
You said: As I said before, I already know that abortion is legal. But that's not my point.
But you ask about people going to jail for killing an unborn baby. It has happened a few times:
You said: "A jury in Canton, Ohio, found former police officer Bobby Cutts Jr. guilty of murdering his pregnant girlfriend, Jessie Marie Davis, and their unborn child"
"Man Gets Life For Killing Girlfriend & Fetus ... David Miller ... was sentenced to life without parole two times Monday--one for the death of the fetus and the other for the mother."
"An Ohio teenager accused of attacking his pregnant girlfriend and killing her unborn child after she refused to have an abortion saw his trial begin. Alfonso Price, now 16, allegedly attacked Kerria Anderson because she refused to have an abortion of her baby, whom Price thought he fathered.
... Both teens are charged with aggravated murder and other lesser charges."
With some diligent research you should be able to find more such incidences.
But it is clear that abortion CAN and HAS been murder.
Boris says: If you force a woman to have an abortion then you are breaking the law. A woman has the right to bear or keep the child.
You said: I'm not saying that abortion is not legal, I'm just answering your question as to whether people go to jail for aborting a fetus - and the answer is yes it has happened.
Ahh good to hear that you always tell the truth. So what's the truth about driving on one's own property? What's the truth about the Bible "Clearly stating that the earth is flat" (your words)? What's the truth about whether murder requires physical force against the victim?
Boris says: Your version of “truth” and mine are radically different. That’s the truth.
You said: You show me where the Bible "Clearly says that the earth is flat" (and I mean THE BIBLE, not some lunatic elsewhere) and I'll tell you some places in the Bible where it comes out against abortion. (Hint: Murder, "Shedding innocent blood," and "If two men are fighting ... if mischief follows..")
You said: But I have proved wrong some words you have said! For example, You said that murder requires physical force against the actual human being - but poison can clearly be used to commit murder, and that's not a physical force against the actual human being!
Boris says: You’ve only proved that you are a desperate antifeminist religious fanatic with a reckless disregard for the truth.
You said: You also said that nobody has a right to drive on their own driveway (I'm assuming a driveway on their own private property) - which is clearly wrong. Check out property rights.
Boris says: You better check your property “rights” because they don’t really exist. The government gives property and the government can take it away any time they want. If the public wants to build something on “your” property they’ll take it from you and there isn’t a thing you can do about it. Wake up. We don’t live in a free country. You have believed propaganda.
You said: I keep saying over and over that I know that abortion is legal.
Boris says: You keep saying everything over and over and over again because you lost your case a long time ago and you know it.
You said: But I'm saying that it's only legal because a some judges in the highest court made an illogical exception to the definition of murder in order to allow abortions.
Boris says: That is your opinion, the opinion of a religious fanatic.
You said: That's not true: Abortion does fit the legal requirements for murder EXCEPT a judge made an exception. So the only reason that abortion isn't always legally murder is because a judge made an exception specifically for abortion.
Boris says: Opinion.
You said: By studying the facts. An unborn human baby at any age is unquestionably human, innocent, and life. Under no other circumstances does our law permit the taking of an innocent human life!
Boris says: But potential life is different.
You said: You use facts like what? I know that a human fetus is human. I know that it is alive. I know that it's innocent. You're the one who thinks that somehow it's not human until its head pops out into air or whatever. But dood, there's nothing magic about birth! what do you think it is before it's born - a dog? Do you think it suddenly becomes human when it takes its firth breath of air?
Boris says: Nothing magic about birth? So a fetus doesn’t have a magical boogy spirit that makes it live forever? The rest about driveways and supposed rights is just a bunch of nonsense, inaccuracies and outright lies. Give up Jesse. The world has rejected you backward superstition based anti-feminist ideas. Find something else to complain about.
Jesse, Don't give up.. there is those that want and need to hear what you have to say. Though I feel pity on Boris, at the same time he reminds me so much of my friends 11 year old son, that just enjoys a debate or argument. It is not truths that matter.. only the thrill of the argument.
Jesse, Bible (or Boogy..Ha Ha) believers can look at the scriptures in Luke Chapter 1 where it states: 39. And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; 40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
I don't normally do "Blogs"... but have enjoyed reading the views of others. Jesse as you have read, Boris said "the world has rejected you..." then according to scriptures... You are doing something right!
God spoke of these days... and as spoken before, yes it is legal according to the law... but for many the law later did not give them peace. I only hope to be a person that can help those that have made wrong choices. God loves them and so do I.
Sheila,
Thanks for your encouragement. I really appreciate it!
Keep up the good work,
-Jesse
Boris,
I see that you cannot answer my questions, nor will you substantiate your claims!
I also noticed that you are trying to shift the burden of proof onto me to prove the negative or the nonexistence of things. If you know they exist, show me where.
Unless you can produce a law or a reason that I don't have the right to drive on my driveway, then I'll have to assume that you don't have any such law or reason.
Unless you can show me where "the Bible clearly states that the earth is flat" then I will have to assume that you do not know of any such verse. What you did do was turn around and ask me to prove that it didn't say the earth was flat - but you're the one who made the claim to the existence of the statement that the earth was flat and the burden of proof to demonstrate it as true is yours.
You say that a fetus is not human until it is born but all of science proves you wrong. Every single cell in a human fetus is identified by a HUMAN DNA code. Remember, human is a species. If it's not human what species is it? waterbuffalow? DNA research just doesn't show that.
If it's not human what is it? Sorry Sir, every single cell is human, the whole is human, and it isn't any other species.
And having grown up on a small family farm and personally managed all or nearly all aspects of raising livestock over many generations, I have a reasonably good understanding of how life works. Trust me - the baby is the same thing and the same kind moments after birth as it is moments before birth - and from the moment of conception until death it is the same kind! Actually, it's the same kind after death until it rots and ceases to exist.
You say that property rights don't really exist, and that the government gives property and can take it away whenever they like. What country are you in by the way? Russia or China? Anyway, the government can't just take property - they have to buy it. The fifth amendment to the US Constitution says "nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."
You say "Everyone on this blog can see how and why you are wrong sir." And when Sheila indicates that she agrees with me, you just say something insulting about her.
You outright refuse to answer my question as to whether it is murder to kill an innocent grown person with poison since there is no physical force against them.
It is clear to me even thought you've been insulting me and others heavily, you clearly cannot logically support your own position and are refusing to answer these questions because they would show the error in your logic.
But thanks to you and to Karen I have mentally and logically explored these topics much deeper then before and have been able to more deeply analyze the situation relating to abortion and life.
I can see why any thinking person would be concerned with abortion, because it is the only form of legal killing where the human being (I realize we disagree on whether it is human*) that is being killed has never threatened anyone's life nor been found guilty and sentenced to death.
* I realize that you claim that a human fetus is not human, and even if you refuse to admit it, it doesn't change the fact that I and most people reading this blog know that science proves that every cell in a human fetus is a human cell and that the whole fetus is also human and of no other species.
You say that your truth is different then mine. You didn't elaborate but I kind of suspect you are right since you claim to always tell the truth and yet you make many unsubstantiated claims and refuse to provide answers. So I don't know what truth is to you, but it must be something less then the honesty most people think of when they hear the truth.
So please, please, show some integrity and answer some tough questions. Never fear the truth. If you know you're right, then face the music. If you know you're wrong, then say so - there's no way to learn if one doesn't admit it when they are wrong.
If you'd rather just talk about one item at a time, that is fine - perhaps we could discuss whether a human fetus is human or not. You say that it's not human, I say that DNA research proves that it is. In what way is a human fetus not human?
Thanks,
-Jesse
Medical professionals who do not believe in abortion or infant killing drugs such as RU486 should not have to perform or participate in procedures that violate their conscience. Many of these folks go into the profession to SAVE life, not to DESTROY life. Forcing such folks to violate their conscience may discourage young, bright hopefuls from entering this helping profession altogether. Someone else's politics should not be forced on others.
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