==…the First Amendment does not require the government to strip the public arena of references to holidays that the vast majority of Americans observe.==
This is so obvious that it’s hard to believe you have to explain it to some people.
==…it is not improper for the government to acknowledge and recognize a variety of aspects of the holidays, including their religious origins, just as it is permissible for the government to acknowledge the role the Ten Commandments have played in the development of American law and history.==
What the “separationists” are talking about is what they say is improper to THEM, then trying to impose the meaning that it is improper to the Constitution. Feelings are not part of what the Constitution says, except that feelings of the Founders goes to what they meant.
==When the government creates a forum for private expression, as is the case in Olympia, Washington, First Amendment free speech rights come into play. That an atheist group may have a right to post a sign in some instances, however, does not insulate the message conveyed from public discussion and criticism.==
To insulate it is to open the whole thing up to “viewpoint discrimination.”
== Proclaiming that “there are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell” and that “religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds” is extremely offensive to millions of Americans.==
What do atheists care?
== Those offended by this attack on their faith have every right to express their strong disagreement with this message.==
As I say, unless an expressed viewpoint is allowed to be opposed, “viewpoint discrimination” comes into play.
==…it is much better to allow discussion and debate, as in Olympia, than to have a sanitized holiday season where there are no displays for fear of offending someone.==
Lib Free Speech claims are not concerned about our Free Speech. Apples and oranges, as we have found out.
==As Justice Holmes famously stated, people should realize that “the ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas–that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out. That at any rate is the theory of our Constitution.” Abrams v. United States, 250 U.S. 616, 630 (1919) (Holmes, J., dissenting). ==
And Libs say that they believe this. However, they don’t practice it for everybody.
The intro to “Medea,” the Penguin Classics edition, calls this, “the hypocrisy of neglected ideals”:
“The Athenians in their actions were certainly as cruel, as dishonest, as greedy, as revengeful, as irreligious, as other Greeks; but in their thoughts and aspirations many of them loved and honoured justice, integrity, and generosity, and loved their city as the shining embodiment of those virtues — which is was not.”
Pretty well explains it.

Mr. Incredible: The background of the Founders is Christian. They did not invite a smorgasbord of religious activity. They had Christianity in mind. The purpose of the first settlers on the Mayflower was to “advance Christianity,” in their own words. Mr. Incredible is living up to his name again. To equate the settlers on the Mayflower (1620) to the Founding Fathers (1776-1789) is truly “incredible.” At the time of the Constitutional Convention, each colony had it’s own religion — a religion as fiercely intolerant as the most radical of today’s neofundamentalist Christians or the despotism of European Christianity that the original colonists so desperately tried to escape. From the witch trials to the confiscation of the property of non-Anglican Christians to the public whipping of Christians of other denominations, the Christianity of our Founding Fathers had become the same cesspool of hypcrisy we see in modern Christianity, which is now best known for its cruelty, intolerance, extravagance, and the bizarre sexual exploits of many of its priests and ministers…
It is truly incredible not to acknowledge that the mere presense of religous symbols in public buildings is not a de facto tacit endorsement of same. We don’t want to tear down your establishment of religion. We just want you to stop dragging your church into our capitol buildings. The Bible says that you have to pick up your own cross and follow Christ. It never says that you are supposed to get the government to do it for you. You want to have relevance in the 21st Century? Take your stupid plastic Mary, Joseph, and Jesus out of the Capitol and go cure a leper on the Capitol steps.

==Mr. Incredible is living up to his name again.==
That is, “astonishing.
== To equate the settlers on the Mayflower (1620) to the Founding Fathers (1776-1789) is truly “incredible.”==
Astonishing that the Settlers and the Founders were on the same page.
== At the time of the Constitutional Convention, each colony had it’s [sic] own religion — a religion as fiercely intolerant as the most radical of today’s neofundamentalist Christians or the despotism of European Christianity that the original colonists so desperately tried to escape.==
Irrelevant. They were Christians who relied on God. THAT’s what’s important.
==..the Christianity of our Founding Fathers had become the same cesspool of hypcrisy we see..==
YOU see.
==… in modern Christianity, which is now best known for its cruelty, intolerance, extravagance, and the bizarre sexual exploits of many of its priests and ministers…==
And, yet, it is the fault of men and women, not Christianity.
==It is truly incredible not to acknowledge that the mere presense of religous symbols in public buildings is not a de facto tacit endorsement of same.==
That’s cuz it is not endorsement.
== We don’t want to tear down your establishment of religion.==
We don’t have “religion.” We have relationship. Muslims have “religion.”
== We just want you to stop dragging your church into our capitol buildings.==
We’re not.
== The Bible says that you have to pick up your own cross…==
Typical of scoffers is to misrepresent and privately and wrongly to interpret the Word of God.
== and follow Christ.==
== It never says that you are supposed to get the government to do it for you.==
They why don’t you people stop doing it?
==You want to have relevance in the 21st Century?==
I hadn’t thought about it.
== Take your stupid plastic Mary, Joseph, and Jesus out of the Capitol…==
We’re not interested in idols.
==… and go cure a leper on the Capitol steps.==
We’re not called to cure lepers.

“We have relationship Muslims have religeon” Whats that supposed to mean? Sounds like a slur.

“We’re not interested in idols” Another dig? This one at Catholics?

==”We’re not interested in idols” Another dig? This one at Catholics?==
There you go assumming again.

==”We’re not interested in idols” Another dig? This one at Catholics?==
I never mentioned “Catholics.” So, how do you know I criticized Catholics unless YOU believe they worship idols???

==”We have relationship Muslims have religeon” Whats that supposed to mean?==
You’re sooooo intelligent, and you don’t know???
== Sounds like a slur.==
I can’t help what you read into what I write. Your imaginations are your own responsibility. Don’t blame me for your “thinking.”
“Religion” is men-made. It is based on external changes, not internal changes. It is performance-based. Muslims, for example, believe that they can perform, earn their way to Heaven. They believe that they are their own savior.
Those who are born again, on the other hand, know that they cannot be good enough, of their own strength, to get to Heaven. They know that there must be internal change and that they cannot earn their way to Heaven. Thus, they have relationship with God, through Christ. So, Christianity is not about religion, rather relationship.

==”We have relationship Muslims have religeon” Whats that supposed to mean?==
The Pharisees had “religion.” They believed that Salvation is of the Law. So do Muslims, for example. They couldn’t be more wrong.

==”We have relationship Muslims have religeon” Whats that supposed to mean? Sounds like a slur.==
Translation: “Since I don’t agree with you, I will look at everything you say as being a ‘slur.’”

CORRECTION:
I forgot to include my name, and I wanna take full credit for my statement.
==”We have relationship Muslims have religeon” Whats that supposed to mean? Sounds like a slur.==
Translation: “Since I don’t agree with you, I will look at everything you say as being a ‘slur.’”

==”We’re not interested in idols” Another dig? This one at Catholics?==
Anyone who prays to an earthly image, like a statue, is an idol worshiper. God, in His Word, says that neither statue, gold, nor silver, possess power other than what the worshiper authorizes. That would put the worshiper over the idol. That, in God’s eyes, is also adultery.
Catholics deny that they worship statues, or idols. They are in the position to know, we guess.
However, it is YOU who make the connection between Catholics and idols, since I never mentioned it.
I say only that, if they deny worshiping statues, it must be true that they don’t worship statues, since they oughta know, no? I accept their denial, and that there must be some other explanation for their kneeling before a statue.

I guess all that is what all the wars and killing is about.

Can we once and for all please lay off the Pharisees. They’re the folks who gave us Rabbinnic Judaism, after all. The Talmud, Mishnah, etc. Just because the NT writers needed to differentiate Jesus from them, they took the low path and villified them. (And this was, mostly likely, to ingratiate themselves to the Romans–they saw who buttered their toast…) You will find virtually every teaching of Jesus in the Talmud.

Mr. Credulity said: Anyone who prays to an earthly image, like a statue, is an idol worshiper. God, in His Word, says that neither statue, gold, nor silver, possess power other than what the worshiper authorizes. That would put the worshiper over the idol. That, in God’s eyes, is also adultery.
Boris says: The problem is that Mr. Credulity worships a paper idol which also would be adultery in his God’s eyes. More hypocrisy from people who are best known for hypocrisy.

Why do Christians even celebrate Christmas? After all, it is a very old pre-christian pagan holiday and the Bible (which christians say they believe) forbids adopting pagan ways, holidays etc. Just because they killed the pagans and stole all their good holidays (and renamed them) doesn’t mean they’re abiding by the bible or the constitution. Oh, they’re so persected!
Happy Solar Event everyone (psss, it’s the REAL reason for the season)

==Can we once and for all please lay off the Pharisees.==
No.
== They’re the folks who gave us Rabbinnic Judaism, after all. ==
They are also the ones who said, erroneously, just like Muslims, that the Law saves us.
==You will find virtually every teaching of Jesus in the Talmud.==
The Word says that the Law kills.

==Mr. Credulity worships a paper idol which also would be adultery in his God’s eyes.==
Not quite. Scoffers always get it wrong.
Christians don’t worship the thing, the physical book.

==Why do Christians even celebrate Christmas?==
You actually need this explained to you, huh? Unbelievable.
25 December is the OBSERVANCE of the Birth of Jesus. It doesn’t matter when it actually was. All that matters is THAT it was.
== After all, it is a very old pre-christian pagan holiday and the Bible (which christians say they believe) forbids adopting pagan ways, holidays etc.==
Christians are not adopting pagan ways, nor pagan holidays. 25 December is the OBSERVANCE of the Birth of Jesus. On that day, you people celebrate something else. We don’t care.
Oh, and be sure to tell your boss that you want to work on Christmas day, that you don’t want the day off, cuz, after all, to take the day off would leave everybody with the impression that you respect the OBSERVANCE day of the Birth of Jesus.

And, yet, it is the fault of men and women, not Christianity.
How can you say that?
Christianity would not exist if it were not for the men and women who affirm it as their belief. When so many Christians are intolerant, the only conclusion a person can come to is that Christianity spawns intolerance.

They are also the ones who said, erroneously, just like Muslims, that the Law saves us.
Boris says: The Pharisees did not even exist during the first half of the first century. They did not gain any power until after the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE. That’s how modern scholars know the stories about them in the Gospels could not possibly be true.
The Word says that the Law kills.
Boris says: Then why is the Law IN the word? ROFL! Man this guy’s foot must taste great to him.
Not quite. Scoffers always get it wrong. Christians don’t worship the thing, the physical book.
Boris says: Hank Hanagraaf says, “We bow our knees to the authority of the Bible.” That is Bible idolatry. Case closed.
You actually need this explained to you, huh? Unbelievable. 25 December is the OBSERVANCE of the Birth of Jesus. It doesn’t matter when it actually was. All that matters is THAT it was.
Boris says: True. But the birth of Jesus is a myth. How can a group of men follow a star to a particular house? Does anyone ever stop to think how stupid that whole story is? No one was ever famous BEFORE they accomplished something.
Christians are not adopting pagan ways, nor pagan holidays. 25 December is the OBSERVANCE of the Birth of Jesus. On that day, you people celebrate something else. We don’t care.
Boris says: The fact remains the reason for the season is Winter Solstice. Christians stole the holiday just like they did the myth of the dying and resurrecting savior king and the rest of the nonsense they swallow without thinking about it.
Oh, and be sure to tell your boss that you want to work on Christmas day, that you don’t want the day off, cuz, after all, to take the day off would leave everybody with the impression that you respect the OBSERVANCE day of the Birth of Jesus.
Boris says: There was no birth of Jesus. The story is as untrue as any that has ever been told.

Proclaiming that “there are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell” and that “religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds” is extremely offensive to millions of Americans. Those offended by this attack on their faith have every right to express their strong disagreement with this message.
Jay, you don’t have the right to go through life being not offended.

If Christians didn’t barrow pagan traditions then please where did those things come from

Your Name, you are correct:
Jesus is the savior of mankind, God made man, the Son of God equal with the Father, so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born of a mortal virgin who after her death ascends to heaven and is honored as a divine being, so is the mother of Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is born in cave on December 25 or January 6, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
The birth of Jesus is prophesied by a star; so is the birth of Osiris Dionysus.
Jesus is born in Bethlehem, which is shaded by a grove sacred to Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is visited by the Magi, who are followers of Mithras and Osiris-Dionysus.
The Magi bring Jesus gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh, which a sixth century BCE Pagan tells us is the way to worship God.
Jesus is baptized, a ritual practiced for centuries in the Mysteries.
The holy man who baptizes Jesus with water has the same name as a Pagan god of water and is born on the summer solstice celebrated as a Pagan water festival.
Jesus offers his followers elemental baptisms of water, air, and fire, as did the Pagan Mysteries.
Jesus is portrayed as a quiet man with long hair and a beard (though not in the Bible); so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus turns water into wine at a marriage on the same day that Osiris-Dionysus was previously believed to have turned water into wine at a marriage.
Jesus heals the sick, exorcises demons, provides miraculous meals, helps fishermen make miraculous catches of fish, and calms the water for his disciples; all of these marvels had previously been performed by Pagan sages.
Like the sages of the Mysteries, Jesus is a wandering wonder-worker who is not honored in his home town.
Jesus is accused of licentious behavior, as were the followers of Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is not at first recognized as a divinity by his disciples, but then is transfigured before them in all his glory; the same is true of Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is surrounded by twelve disciples; so is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus rides triumphantly into town on a donkey while crowds wave branches, so does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus is a just man unjustly accused of heresy and bringing a new religion, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus attacks hypocrites, stands up to tyranny, and willingly goes to his death predicting he will rise again in three days, as do Pagan sages.
Jesus is betrayed for thirty pieces of silver, a motif found in the story of Socrates.
Jesus is equated with bread and wine, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus disciples symbolically eat bread and drink wine to commune with him, as do the followers of Osiris-Dionysus
Jesus is hung on a tree or crucified, as is Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus dies as a sacrifice to redeem the sins of the world; so does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus’ corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.
After his death Jesus descends to hell, then on the third day resurrects before his disciples and ascends to heaven, where he is enthroned by God and waits to reappear at the end of time as a divine judge, as does Osiris-Dionysus.
Jesus was said to have died and resurrected on exactly the same dates that the death and resurrection of Osiris-Dionysus were celebrated.
Jesus’ empty tomb is visited by three women followers; Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty grave.
Through sharing in his passion Jesus offers his disciples the chance to be born again, as does Osiris-Dionysus.

Boris, I apologize beforehand for the length. Also, there is not enough time or space to deal with what you said, so here are some of the important ones.
1) Osiris was married to Iris—Jesus wasn’t married
2)What about the death?
At a banquet of the gods, Seth fooled Osiris into stepping into a coffin, which he promptly slammed shut and cast into the Nile. The coffin was born by the Nile to the delta town of Byblos, where it became enclosed in a tamarisk tree. Isis, the wife of Osiris, discovered the coffin and brought it back. (The story to this point is attested only by the Greek writer Plutarch, although Seth was identified as his murderer as early as the Pyramid era of the Old Kingdom.)
Seth took advantage of Isis’s temporary absence on one occasion, cut the body to pieces, and cast them into the Nile. (In the Egyptian texts this incident alone accounts for the murder of Osiris.)
Not much similarity to Jesus.
3) “Jesus offers his followers elemental baptisms of water, air, and fire, as did the Pagan Mysteries.”……….when did Jesus offer the elemental baptism of air.
4)The holy man who baptized Jesus was John..hmm….the same name as millions of other people….Don’t stretch it, Boris.
5) “Jesus is portrayed as a quiet man with long hair and a beard (though not in the Bible); so is Osiris-Dionysus.” If it’s not in the Bible, don’t equate it with Christianity.
6) “Jesus is equated with bread and wine, as is Osiris-Dionysus.”
As far the idea of eating flesh and drinking blood in the Christian communion coming from the cult of Dionysus, here are the relevant details of that myth:
Persephone slept with Zeus in the form of a serpent, and the `original’ name of the child was Zagreus. But at Hera’s instigation the Titans seized the child, tore him apart, and ate him (cannibalism). Only his heart was preserved, and Athena took it to Zeus… who served it up to Semele in a drink, which made her pregnant. The result was DIONYSUS, the `TWICE-BORN’ (one of his cult-titles at Thebes).
Yep, that’s clearly the source of the Christian idea of communion — much more likely than the Jewish Passover, or the ancient Jewish belief that blood represented the life of an individual, and blood spilled represented atonement for sin….at least that’s what Boris thinks.
They might both be equated with bread and wine, but the symbolism is vastly different.
7) And what of the idea that Dionysus’s birth was similar to that of Jesus’ birth?
Dionysus is born twice, Jesus is born once. Whereas Jesus was allegedly fully God, but also fully human, born in the normal manner, some GREEK myth-makers had Dionysus actually be born out of Zeus’s leg — because he would not have been immortal if he had been born normally, from a mortal woman.
Where Mary was a virgin, and remained one until after Jesus’ birth, Dionysus’s mother (Semele) was flirting with Acteon on the side, and messing around with Zeus (who was cheating on his wife) because Hera promised her it would bring her incredible erotic pleasure. Where Semele’s motive was lust, Mary’s motive was a pure, non-physical love for God. Where Jesus conceived by an ordinary woman and born in humble circumstances, Dionysus was conceived by a princess, and ripped from his mothers’ womb during a disastrous attempt at pregnancy-sex in the heavenly palaces, as part of a larger “sex war” raging up there between Hera and Zeus. Mary lived to see her son die; Semele was burned to death before giving birth by Zeus’s misfired thunderbolt.
In short, there’s nothing in common except the idea of an impregnated mortal. “Jesus disciples symbolically eat bread and drink wine to commune with him, as do the followers of Osiris-Dionysus”
–Christians don’t take eat bread and drink wine to commune with him, but rather to commemorate him.
9) “Jesus’ corpse is wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh, as is the corpse of Osiris-Dionysus.”
–We’re supposed to believe, for example, that it is some amazing co-incidence that both Osiris and Jesus were wrapped in cloth when dead. Duh! The reason this is true is because so many societies wrapped all their dead in cloth. The dead Osiris was wrapped in cloth because that’s what Egyptians did for royalty. Jesus was wrapped in cloth because that’s what Jews did for everyone. It’s not some amazing emulation, it’s just what happened to dead people in that region. It’s a bit like pointing to two stories about great chefs, highlighting the amazing similarity in that they both cooked with fire. Well, duh.
10)What about the death of Osiris compared with Jesus: First, read Is. 53. This man is not green. He is not prone to drunken sex-parties. He is not symbolized by a snake….Big differences.
11) “Jesus’ empty tomb is visited by three women followers; Osiris-Dionysus also has three women followers who visit an empty grave.” As usual, incorrect…Read Luke 24:10
In conclusion, If I wanted to make up a story about a fake guy, I wouldn’t set the story in the very same city where I was trying to create a following: too many people would know the real details. It would be too easily discredited. I’d set it in some far away city, or some heavenly realm, where nobody could check for sure.
But here we have Christianity, where the first followers were indeed known to be Jewish, and church itself was based in the very city where Jesus was purported to have walked and taught and been publicly executed just decades earlier. Worse, there are prominent followers like James, an early leader who claimed to have been Jesus’ own brother! Surely he must have had some relatives who could have come forward and put him out of business just by saying otherwise, no?
So here is Christianity, structured exactly this way, with his earliest followers recorded as going to their death rather than retract their testimony. I don’t see how that makes sense if they personally had made up the idea. And the allegation that the disciples and first followers were liars conflicts with written accounts of these people who said they were honorable men, held in high esteem for their ethics.
And finally, where’s the profit in all of this? L. Ron Hubbard pointed out the best way to become rich and powerful was to start your own religion — and then demonstrated it quite well! What was in this for the first Christians?
They were Jews: Why did they think they could create a massive Jewish following by inventing an imaginary messiah who did not come to save Israel from Rome?….who also seemed to conflict with the common Jewish belief that a man could not also be God….where the main witnesses to the resurrection story were women (who were not thought of as reliable witnesses….and who predicted (correctly) that those who wanted to follow him would often be impoverished, persecuted, and even martyred?
It’s the most unbelievable idea I’ve ever heard.

What about the similarities beteen the Jesus story and those of Attis, Adonis, Mithras, Horus, Demeter and the other crucified and resurrecting saviors? I just gave some examples but the Jesus story is the oldest myth in the Near East. I’d like to see you try to prove the first Christians were Jewish. That’s a hoot! The first Christians were gentiles living in Europe. That Christianity began or ever even existed in Palestine is a myth originating in the GREEK Bible by writers living in Rome. There were never any Christians in Palestine in the first century. The church fathers discovered this in the second century when they went looking for the mythical Jerusalem Church – and didn’t find it or any Christians.

True. There is little extra-biblical evidence for 1st century Christianity being in Palestine. However, the New Testament passes numerous secular writing tests, such as the Bibliographic test, the Internal evidence test, and the external evidence test, among others. So, yes, I believe the 1st century Christians were Jewish, because the Bible says so. You call it stupid, but I call it faith. Jesus loves you and died for your sins.

Wayne,
The New Testament doesn’t pass any secular writing tests as a historical document. Name one historical document that contains word for word dialog between characters in a story setting, especially characters such as angels, demons, Satan and the like. Historical narratives do not contain any dialog at all. The Bible has all the elements of fiction writing and none of history writing. Sure there are some historical places and figures mentioned but again, name some fiction that doesn’t do this. But that doesn’t matter because your beliefs are really based on faith. You should be commended for recognizing this and also for admitting it. Let your fellow Christians be brave and honest enough to admit the same and we’ll all get along much better.

I remember seeing as a five year old that there was an order to life and more in one butterfly than could have just happened accidently. However as I became older and my secret evils inside needed to be accounted for, I had to explain away the knowledge and surity of God seeing all. He (I now see) lovingly allowed me to live and protected me as I followed myself to the end. Gradually becoming more and more sure of what I knew inside, my prayers became more centered on knowing God, (rather than the repeated “please forgive me and save me from my stupidity, the mess I’ve made by dening you!”) and He gave me what I asked for. (This is the dangerous part for non-believers, He gives us what we ask for!) The bible, which had always been so stupid for me, became real as He opened my eyes and I began to see what I am. Not pretty, but He has it all covered by His blood on the cross. And all that spiritual stupidity in the bible? Well, when you are born again, it becomes your life’s blood, and your eyes are opened! Just ask, He has promised to give you eyes to see the truth and set you free from your evil desires to live outside of His law!! Thank you God for your Son!

From “changed”: I would like to add to my comment from the five year old about the butterfly, that I am now 55 years old, my life changed at 53 years old.I fell on my knees before Christ many times during my life and went back to my old ways. I held on to my desires and my lordship. two years ago, about to lose my patient wife of thirty years, I gave up my desires and prayed for Him to give me His. This came about by reading and understanding His word. Now my life is a battleground between the old man and the love of God. God wins. Will I go with Him? Up to me. He is holding the door open, the only way to go to hell is to live without the most fantatsic love I have ever experienced and walk away to things I have no desire for anymore. Want to find Him? He is meek and lowly of heart. Want to know what is not from Him? Easy, look for pride at the root. Pride = No God!

Many people wrongfully assert that such displays should be challenged under the Establishment Clause when in reality these cases involve First Amendment free speech. When the arena of private speech is entered, groups of various faiths and cultures have the right to put out a display. With this right, however, is the right of the American people to likewise exercise their free speech rights in criticism of displays that are adverse to their tastes.