Barry,
I like your list. The inclusion of key figures throughout history makes sense to me because our founding document has always been a set of goals. We have always fallen short of those goals but that doesn’t mean we still don’t continue to strive and hopefully someday get there.
I am not a religious person but on a day like the 4th of July I am as likely as the next man to reverentially ponder the rare event that the founding of nation truly was. The lesson for me has nothing to do with men being blessed by an omnipotent god and following His will but rather the opposite, men using their own minds free from superstition and dogma, employing common sense about the freedom men should have.
Freedom is perhaps and odd kind of innovation, no one knows where it will eventually lead. Many lament that old social standards are being left in the dust as people explore the boundaries of freedom. I don’t. When we started America we had slaves, women couldn’t vote and education was reserved for the wealthy. I figure the old standards that we discard along the way are the ones that needed to go anyway.
Happy 4th

The top issue that lets me know that Americans would really believe in freedom is knowing that constitutional rights are unconditional and not based on the approval,acceptance or agreement of a majority of Americans. Right now I list that under the possibility of a more perfect union, because in reality the tyrannical majority rules in America. Just look at California’s Prop Hate or the way the old white guys in the military refuse to allow gay and lesbian troops their second amendment right to join a well organized militia without being killed by other American troops (like just happened in Camp Pendleton).

Hi Rev. Barry,
I agree that we need to teach our kids how to defend their beliefs that go against the grain, that war should be a last resort after efforts for peace are made through dialog, that there needs to be more equality for all including equanimity in women’s salaries matching those of their male counterparts and opportunities to advance instead of hitting the infamous glass ceiling in corporate and political America, that there is still a need for better safety, healthcare, and education for all including children and rights for the unborn, and that politicians need to realize their role as public servants instead of public tyrants.
I disagree with you and Pres. Obama that America is religiously opaque. Instead, I posit that America was founded as a Christian nation and still is one. The words of the Declaration of Independence state, “the laws of nature and of nature’s God”. Above Pres. Washington’s signature on the Constitution is written, “done…in the Year of Our Lord”, pointing to Jesus Christ. The phrase “In God We Trust” was inscribed on our money as recently as 1957. America was founded as a Christian nation and will always be one, so help US God.

>>America was founded as a Christian nation and still is one
Sorry Lindzee, but this is one of the most inaccurate and misused statements by the Religious Right, and frankly it offends me. I think that the members of the founding fathers, who were Deists, that existed around the time of the American Revolution, would take you to task as well.
What do you think the reason for the First Amendment was? I think it was that our founding Fathers knew that religious beleifs were (and would be) a hot button item, and realized after the Constitution was written that a law was needed to avoid the conflicts that would occur if Congress (or any governmental power) enacted non-secular legislation to select one religion view over another. I would only agree that our laws were based on Judeo-Christian values but not that our nation was founded as a Christian nation.
>> “done…in the Year of Our Lord”
Whose Lord? Yours, mine, or the Hindu down the street? We can all worship a deity, and it does not have to be the same one as yours.
Your reply smacks of what I call religious bigotry. Your statements exclude me, and all non-Christians. My religion predates yours, and yet I am just as American as you, and I follow the same laws. But you practice an exclusionary religious belief that your religion trumps everyone else’s. I have heard it all before because it is the Religious Right’s myopic excuse for why they will ‘tolerate’ all other religions. To me that is a rank cop-out for being a religious bigot. I accept the existence of other religions, and the fact that our laws have and must do the same.
So please Lindzee, don’t try rewrite history in your view, accept things the way they are and the reasons our founding fathers who said what they said and why they wrote it down for ALL of us to follow.

N. Lindzee Lindholm,
It is odd that you mention the inclusion of “In God We Trust” on coins in 1957. That is well within my lifetime and clearly not early American history. Using it works against your historical revisionism, this country was not founded as a Christian nation and trying to declare it so will never alter the real facts of history. The change to both the coins and the pledge were part of a Cold War frenzy, a desperate and overtly silly notion to somehow put us on the side of God. Really kind of moronic when you think about it; does your God really care what is written on coins? If he does, it that a God worth worshipping.?
I grow weary of the purposeful dishonesty of Christian extremists who knowingly rewrite history in failing efforts to distort our real history. It is a shameful practice. That fact that any Christian would knowingly do such a thing invalidates the entire religion as far a I am concerned. I thought Christianity promoted proper behavior, not provide a reason to act horribly. Perhaps Christianity should be required to publish a success rate, say something like “8% of all deeply devout Christians are able to stop lying, the other 92% not so much”. Come to think of it, I wouldn’t mind some required consumer disclosure about churches so the consumer can see what their money is buying. Be a lot tougher to sell and ineffective product.

“the laws of nature and of nature’s God”
Boris says: That certainly isn’t the God of the Bible.

Rich, you make some excellent points. It’s an entirely dishonest approach to history to pick and choose what you’re looking for and ignore other facts. Accept it. We’re not a Christian nation. George Washington said and Barak Obama said it. If you want change, work for change but don’t blatantly lie about our history to advance your agenda.
I’d like someone who claims we are a “Christian Nation” to explain to me exactly what they mean by that. Suppose we are. What does that mean? Should we only elect Christians to public office? Should all our laws be adapted to comply with someone’s idea of the biblical Gods law? What rights would those of other religions have? How far do they want to take this. It sounds awfully complicated and problematic. Separation of church and state is such a better idea and has proved successful for the long history of our nation. In fact many would argue it is the reason for the long history of our nation.

I believe this world is looking for Freedom to sin against God. A loving God has revealed the way to have a relationship with Him.
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. 2Ch 7:14
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Joh 14:6

Oh, boo-hoo, Keith. Not everyone believes in your foolish bogeyman. Besides, we’d rather sin against the Easter Bunny.
SIN=
Self
Inflicted
Nonsense

Good comments in response to the erroneous assertion that america was founded as a Christian nation, to which I add: “The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion” from Article 11 of the official 1797 Treaty with Tripoli officially signed by President John Adams, who proclaimed: “I…with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. …And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all others citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfil the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof” Additionally, James Madison wrote “Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by ecclesiastical bodies, may be furnished by precedents in their short history.” Our government was founded on freedom of religious belief, and the desire to separate such belief from the government of the country.

I believe the US is a Christian nation, and apparently I am not alone. Read this article by the Examiner:
http://www.examiner.com/x-13316-Kansas-City-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m7d8-Is-America-a-Christian-Nation

Can we all agree the US was established based on judeo-christain laws and morals, which our founders held dear because they came from God’s Word?
That said, that does not make the US a Christian Nation. We are now and have always been a magnet for all kinds, a melting pot, that welcomes ALL beliefs and no beliefs. In fact, as a Christain I would be embarassed to say the US is a Christain Nation based our polices domestically and around the world. As a nation we are more like Sodom and Gamora than a Christ-like state.
THAT said, the constitutional decree for separation of Church and State has less to do with personal beliefs and everything to do with exactly what it says – keeping the Church (re: all organized religions) out of the controlling seat of Gov. and the Gov’s nose out of organized religion and the individual citizen’s personal beliefs and practices.

People retarded enough to believe in things like angels, demons, Satan and stupid enough to claim not to believe in evolution need to be kept as far away from our government as possible. In fact these people should NOT have the right to vote.

I don’t think this nation was founded as a Christian nation but, even if it were, the fundamentalist Christianity that is trying to impose its standards on our country today would not be recognized at all by the founders as Christianity. Fundamentalist Christianity today is absolutely antithetical to everything they stood for.
Boris, everyone has the right to vote. We can be grateful that the fundamentalist vote represents only about 15% of the voting population, but we also need to be vigilant about that vote. It’s sad that 15% of us are fundamentalist Christians when there are so many great ideas out there that challenge all of us. Why would 15% of the population choose to turn their minds off?

10) How about teaching them basic skills such as reading, writing, and arithmetic, all which our public schools are failing to do?
9) I AGREE!! An African-American president isn’t proof we achieved equality? Slavery is history, Segregation is history, and there are African Americans making just as much (if not more) money than their white counterparts. Aside from minor issues of discrimination (which our legal system can easily settle nowadays) how can you say African-Americans are not treated equally today?
7) Somehow I think abortion and morning-after pills allow women to negate, not accept, responsibility for their actions.
6) No comment.
5) Hard to say when people like you fight against school vouchers. I guess children can have the money as long as they don’t attend some religious school.
4) So we can freely express our religious beliefs just as long as we don’t set foot on public property? Yup, the public square is a forum for all and any ideas–excluding religious ones. Sounds FREE to me.
3) I AGREE!!
2) Like the one they have in Canada where you wait for days on end for life-saving treatment. Look. I agree our healthcare system is need of reform. I just don’t think we need to resort to socialized, substandard healthcare.
1) I AGREE!!

Aw. Come on Lindzee, you can not be that naive to believe that an article written by a religious editor is going to be unbiased. I agree with “Your Name”. We are a nation whose laws were influenced by Judeo-Christian values, and that is all that can be said about that. Anything else is an attempt to rewrite history.
Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Ethan Allen, Thomas Paine, and George Washington were known to be Deists not Christians.
So when someone claims we are a Christian nation or where founded as a Christian Nation, the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. We are a nation with a majority of Christians, but our laws do not allow one religion to be superior to another.
So just because someone writes a biased article does not make it right or true. Read your history books. The good old USA is a melting pot of all religions, and it has to remain that way to be, truely, a nation built on freedoms and liberties that a person of any religion can enjoy.

Certainly people may believe as they wish, and they may be joined by other people in that belief. Many people believe the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that belief was recently echoed by Senator Sylvia Allen. However, most people who have the majority of their brain intact tend to roll on the floor and laugh their buns off when such ludicrous statements are made in earnest. My point is that believing something is true, and being joined in that belief by x number of people, doesn’t count for anything when it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence. Oh, it counts for those who believe it…and in the case of religious belief that is perfectly acceptable, but such belief does not touch the realm of government in these United States. The Constitution, our founding legal document, made that quite clear.

Perhaps those who believe much of this drivel have never read the pre-ambles of their own state constitutions. I believe it would be extremely illuminating…even the very liberal New York pre-amble names ‘God’ as the reason for Law. As usual…those who are progressives never have facts but merely use personal insults and attacks to attempt to silence true debate.

SHUT UP YA JERK

God isn’t the reason for law. God is the reason for war, bigotry, hate, cultural prejudice, religious persecution, religious delusions, willful ignorance, creationist asininity…. and the stupid thing is that no God exists.

Only to be seen in human society, Boris. Can you imagine two dogs fighting over an imaginary bone? It doesn’t happen.

I am conscerned with the belief that we are to have a government which is free of the leadership of
God. Is it the case where people want to put forth some theory of evolving from whatever and making up whatever as their form of values is in fact making themselves their own God. Such examples of society are in fact, full of hot air. If you don’t want to see the fact that the bible as being truth and want put yourself on a high realm of society as to shut out the fact that you are created in such a fashion of such incredible design, that God loved you enough to do so.
Thus, not taking this in to consideration and making your views as the limit of society is in fact putting a wall up to God and saying, me me me me me me me me me me me . Selfish.

The wall is between Religion and Government, Cara, not between God and People. Everybody gets to follow their own spiritual path. If God exists, His leadership role is up to Him wouldn’t you say? Government may be selfish; and, as it represents The People, that should come as no surprise in some way. Government business, however, is not measured in any specific metric to comply with any religious belief whatever. There shall be no religious test. Government may be impacted, inextricably, by the people themselves who carry their own mixed bag of religious feelings. Those People may change Their view, They might even falsely represent Their view, but They will not be denied Their personal right to call it as they see it. It is where coercion nor prohibition are allowed. Such views may are not represented in government, only actions which encompass the public interest as represented. Those government actions are taken by people holding views which should strongly mirror the population at large.
However, power in any guise is an aphrodisiac, and I see many politicians espousing values up to which they do not measure. It isn’t to be denied that Mankind’s sinful nature has drawn remark. We vote for politicians to protect us from the tendency to abuse power, which would include from having tax money fund religious enterprises. When it comes to government, I’d prefer it be populated with honest people (regardless their personal beliefs) than those who profess superior incite into the mind of a God, yet live lives of brazen impropriety.

Two American generals on the local Charlotte, N.C. radio station WB1120AM (I think) stated that Saddam secretly shipped the WMDs to Syria. Also, we were stopped from smashing the Communist North Vietnamese by a stupid Democratically controlled Congress who withdrew the funds and caved into a brainwashed liberal media blitzed public, who were told liberal media lies. Today the South China Sea is ruled by the Red Chinese navy, who can effectively cut off a major shipping lane in time of war. Also, at the end of the Vietnam War, thousands of fleeing South Vietnamese lost their lives to pirates, women were raped, they lost money and valuables, and thousands of others were forced into concentration camps. We could have nuked North Vietnam with impunity. We still had nuclear superiority over Red China and the Soviet Union. Moreover, from Kruschev’s cowardice over Cuba (he backed down), we know that the Soviet Union would not have counter attacked. And even if Red China and the Soviet Union had launched a nuclear retaliatory stike, we should have the guts and moral fortitude of Patrick Henry who said, “Give me liberty or give me death.” Freedom does not come without a price. I would rather be blown up in a nuclear blast or be struck down with radiation sickness, horrible as it might be, than to have my freedom of speech, freedom of religion and other liberties cut off. The founders of our nation and Patrick Henry would be ashamed of the nation of cowards that America has become.

It is wrong hippy teaching to say that the majority of the founders of our nation and signers of the Constitution were deists. The majority were Christians and the written records prove so. In the last 20 or mabe 30 years or so, school history books have been re-written to say that the majority of the founders and signers were deists. So these hippy teachers who poisoned childrens’ minds should go back to school themselves. They are morons. There is also no clause in the Constitution stating that the meaning or even the existence of such a clause would mean that the government would not allow any religious symbolism, beliefs, books, or monuments to be displayed in government offices or on government land, or in schools. It just means that the government would not prohibit the free exercise of religion. And if anyone is so opposed to “religion” and “God or Jesus” that they can’t let people have a minute of silence, pray at a school commencement without praying too (they aren’t being forced to pray), or observe Christian or other religious monuments on school or government property, then they’re bigots themselves or just outright crazy. If you don’t wanna, you don’t have to pray (you can read a book or listen on earphones to your own heavy metal music or whatever), and you don’t have to look at any monuments or flags that you don’t wanna. Admit it: you just hate God, Jesus, or what some so-called “Christians” or “churches” did to you. Hey, take your gripes to whoever hurt you through legal channels. But don’t knock others for exercising their beliefs. Your silent prayer can be to yourself or any whatever you wanna pray to. Whose to know anyway? You think people can read your mind? Get real.

The Lib tells us that we must accept all sorts of porn and other filth for ourselves and our children, that this is what “Freedom” is all about.
If we have to accept porn and that sort of filth, among other filth, in the public arena, why can’t they accept The Ten Commandments posted on public property?

Is the mere posting, in public, of filth a more important Freedom than posting The Ten Commandments in public?
If the State accepts the posting of filth, does that mean that the State promotes that filth?
If not, then the mere posting of The Ten Commandments in public does not mean that the State endorses, nor promotes, the posting.

If we have to accept porn and that sort of filth, among other filth, in the public arena, why can’t they accept The Ten Commandments posted on public property?
Boris says: Because the 10 Commandments deny religious freedom and instead demand the worship of only one God in a country founded on freedom FROM religion. Plus four of the commandments have nothing to do with laws or morals but only the proper worship of an evil and non-existent desert deity. No one is forcing anyone to accept porn and calling porn filth when the Christian religion is the most evil filth ever to exist on this planet is very hypocritical.

It is wrong hippy teaching to say that the majority of the founders of our nation and signers of the Constitution were deists. The majority were Christians and the written records prove so.
Boris says: 50 of the 56 signers were Freemasons. Being a Freemason meant automatic excommunication from both Protestant and Catholic churches. I’d like to see some positive proof that ANY of these 56 men were Christians. Of course I’m asking for truth from someone who is obviously a bold faces Christian liar as anyone who has read his posts can see. Name ‘em and claim ‘em liar. I dare you.

==I’d like to see some positive proof that ANY of these 56 men were Christians.==
You can see the positive proof by reading what they wrote.

==…the 10 Commandments deny religious freedom…==
No, They don’t. You’re free to reeject the Law. I just hope that you’re big enough to accept the consequences without whining like a little girl, or old woman.
==… and instead demand the worship of only one God…==
He gives you the choice to worship Him.
==…in a country founded on freedom FROM religion.==
That appears nowhere in the Constitution.
The First Amendment “religion clause” acknowledges Freedom to worship. Atheists want nothing to do with that, and, therefore, it doesn’t refer to them.
== Plus four of the commandments have nothing to do with laws or morals but only the proper worship of an evil and non-existent desert deity.==
Scoffers and the Devil see it that way.
== No one is forcing anyone to accept porn and calling porn filth…==
Yes, they are, by placing it everywhere people, with their kids, go.
==… when the Christian religion is the most evil filth ever to exist on this planet is very hypocritical.==
That’s what the Devil says, too.

== No one is forcing anyone to accept porn …==
No one is forcing anybody to accept The Ten Commandments.