What Freedom Could Mean

Barry,

I like your list. The inclusion of key figures throughout history makes sense to me because our founding document has always been a set of goals. We have always fallen short of those goals but that doesn't mean we still don't continue to strive and hopefully someday get there.

I am not a religious person but on a day like the 4th of July I am as likely as the next man to reverentially ponder the rare event that the founding of nation truly was. The lesson for me has nothing to do with men being blessed by an omnipotent god and following His will but rather the opposite, men using their own minds free from superstition and dogma, employing common sense about the freedom men should have.

Freedom is perhaps and odd kind of innovation, no one knows where it will eventually lead. Many lament that old social standards are being left in the dust as people explore the boundaries of freedom. I don't. When we started America we had slaves, women couldn't vote and education was reserved for the wealthy. I figure the old standards that we discard along the way are the ones that needed to go anyway.

Happy 4th

Hi Rev. Barry,

I agree that we need to teach our kids how to defend their beliefs that go against the grain, that war should be a last resort after efforts for peace are made through dialog, that there needs to be more equality for all including equanimity in women's salaries matching those of their male counterparts and opportunities to advance instead of hitting the infamous glass ceiling in corporate and political America, that there is still a need for better safety, healthcare, and education for all including children and rights for the unborn, and that politicians need to realize their role as public servants instead of public tyrants.

I disagree with you and Pres. Obama that America is religiously opaque. Instead, I posit that America was founded as a Christian nation and still is one. The words of the Declaration of Independence state, "the laws of nature and of nature's God". Above Pres. Washington's signature on the Constitution is written, "done...in the Year of Our Lord", pointing to Jesus Christ. The phrase "In God We Trust" was inscribed on our money as recently as 1957. America was founded as a Christian nation and will always be one, so help US God.

N. Lindzee Lindholm,

It is odd that you mention the inclusion of "In God We Trust" on coins in 1957. That is well within my lifetime and clearly not early American history. Using it works against your historical revisionism, this country was not founded as a Christian nation and trying to declare it so will never alter the real facts of history. The change to both the coins and the pledge were part of a Cold War frenzy, a desperate and overtly silly notion to somehow put us on the side of God. Really kind of moronic when you think about it; does your God really care what is written on coins? If he does, it that a God worth worshipping.?

I grow weary of the purposeful dishonesty of Christian extremists who knowingly rewrite history in failing efforts to distort our real history. It is a shameful practice. That fact that any Christian would knowingly do such a thing invalidates the entire religion as far a I am concerned. I thought Christianity promoted proper behavior, not provide a reason to act horribly. Perhaps Christianity should be required to publish a success rate, say something like "8% of all deeply devout Christians are able to stop lying, the other 92% not so much". Come to think of it, I wouldn't mind some required consumer disclosure about churches so the consumer can see what their money is buying. Be a lot tougher to sell and ineffective product.

Rich, you make some excellent points. It’s an entirely dishonest approach to history to pick and choose what you’re looking for and ignore other facts. Accept it. We’re not a Christian nation. George Washington said and Barak Obama said it. If you want change, work for change but don’t blatantly lie about our history to advance your agenda.
I’d like someone who claims we are a “Christian Nation” to explain to me exactly what they mean by that. Suppose we are. What does that mean? Should we only elect Christians to public office? Should all our laws be adapted to comply with someone’s idea of the biblical Gods law? What rights would those of other religions have? How far do they want to take this. It sounds awfully complicated and problematic. Separation of church and state is such a better idea and has proved successful for the long history of our nation. In fact many would argue it is the reason for the long history of our nation.

Oh, boo-hoo, Keith. Not everyone believes in your foolish bogeyman. Besides, we'd rather sin against the Easter Bunny.

SIN=
Self
Inflicted
Nonsense

I believe the US is a Christian nation, and apparently I am not alone. Read this article by the Examiner:

http://www.examiner.com/x-13316-Kansas-City-Conservative-Examiner~y2009m7d8-Is-America-a-Christian-Nation

People retarded enough to believe in things like angels, demons, Satan and stupid enough to claim not to believe in evolution need to be kept as far away from our government as possible. In fact these people should NOT have the right to vote.

10) How about teaching them basic skills such as reading, writing, and arithmetic, all which our public schools are failing to do?

9) I AGREE!!

8) An African-American president isn’t proof we achieved equality? Slavery is history, Segregation is history, and there are African Americans making just as much (if not more) money than their white counterparts. Aside from minor issues of discrimination (which our legal system can easily settle nowadays) how can you say African-Americans are not treated equally today?

7) Somehow I think abortion and morning-after pills allow women to negate, not accept, responsibility for their actions.

6) No comment.

5) Hard to say when people like you fight against school vouchers. I guess children can have the money as long as they don’t attend some religious school.

4) So we can freely express our religious beliefs just as long as we don’t set foot on public property? Yup, the public square is a forum for all and any ideas--excluding religious ones. Sounds FREE to me.

3) I AGREE!!

2) Like the one they have in Canada where you wait for days on end for life-saving treatment. Look. I agree our healthcare system is need of reform. I just don’t think we need to resort to socialized, substandard healthcare.

1) I AGREE!!

Certainly people may believe as they wish, and they may be joined by other people in that belief. Many people believe the Earth is only 6000 years old, and that belief was recently echoed by Senator Sylvia Allen. However, most people who have the majority of their brain intact tend to roll on the floor and laugh their buns off when such ludicrous statements are made in earnest. My point is that believing something is true, and being joined in that belief by x number of people, doesn't count for anything when it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence. Oh, it counts for those who believe it...and in the case of religious belief that is perfectly acceptable, but such belief does not touch the realm of government in these United States. The Constitution, our founding legal document, made that quite clear.

SHUT UP YA JERK

Only to be seen in human society, Boris. Can you imagine two dogs fighting over an imaginary bone? It doesn't happen.

The wall is between Religion and Government, Cara, not between God and People. Everybody gets to follow their own spiritual path. If God exists, His leadership role is up to Him wouldn't you say? Government may be selfish; and, as it represents The People, that should come as no surprise in some way. Government business, however, is not measured in any specific metric to comply with any religious belief whatever. There shall be no religious test. Government may be impacted, inextricably, by the people themselves who carry their own mixed bag of religious feelings. Those People may change Their view, They might even falsely represent Their view, but They will not be denied Their personal right to call it as they see it. It is where coercion nor prohibition are allowed. Such views may are not represented in government, only actions which encompass the public interest as represented. Those government actions are taken by people holding views which should strongly mirror the population at large.

However, power in any guise is an aphrodisiac, and I see many politicians espousing values up to which they do not measure. It isn't to be denied that Mankind's sinful nature has drawn remark. We vote for politicians to protect us from the tendency to abuse power, which would include from having tax money fund religious enterprises. When it comes to government, I'd prefer it be populated with honest people (regardless their personal beliefs) than those who profess superior incite into the mind of a God, yet live lives of brazen impropriety.

It is wrong hippy teaching to say that the majority of the founders of our nation and signers of the Constitution were deists. The majority were Christians and the written records prove so. In the last 20 or mabe 30 years or so, school history books have been re-written to say that the majority of the founders and signers were deists. So these hippy teachers who poisoned childrens' minds should go back to school themselves. They are morons. There is also no clause in the Constitution stating that the meaning or even the existence of such a clause would mean that the government would not allow any religious symbolism, beliefs, books, or monuments to be displayed in government offices or on government land, or in schools. It just means that the government would not prohibit the free exercise of religion. And if anyone is so opposed to "religion" and "God or Jesus" that they can't let people have a minute of silence, pray at a school commencement without praying too (they aren't being forced to pray), or observe Christian or other religious monuments on school or government property, then they're bigots themselves or just outright crazy. If you don't wanna, you don't have to pray (you can read a book or listen on earphones to your own heavy metal music or whatever), and you don't have to look at any monuments or flags that you don't wanna. Admit it: you just hate God, Jesus, or what some so-called "Christians" or "churches" did to you. Hey, take your gripes to whoever hurt you through legal channels. But don't knock others for exercising their beliefs. Your silent prayer can be to yourself or any whatever you wanna pray to. Whose to know anyway? You think people can read your mind? Get real.

Is the mere posting, in public, of filth a more important Freedom than posting The Ten Commandments in public?

If the State accepts the posting of filth, does that mean that the State promotes that filth?

If not, then the mere posting of The Ten Commandments in public does not mean that the State endorses, nor promotes, the posting.

It is wrong hippy teaching to say that the majority of the founders of our nation and signers of the Constitution were deists. The majority were Christians and the written records prove so.

Boris says: 50 of the 56 signers were Freemasons. Being a Freemason meant automatic excommunication from both Protestant and Catholic churches. I'd like to see some positive proof that ANY of these 56 men were Christians. Of course I'm asking for truth from someone who is obviously a bold faces Christian liar as anyone who has read his posts can see. Name 'em and claim 'em liar. I dare you.

==...the 10 Commandments deny religious freedom...==

No, They don't. You're free to reeject the Law. I just hope that you're big enough to accept the consequences without whining like a little girl, or old woman.

==... and instead demand the worship of only one God...==

He gives you the choice to worship Him.

==...in a country founded on freedom FROM religion.==

That appears nowhere in the Constitution.

The First Amendment "religion clause" acknowledges Freedom to worship. Atheists want nothing to do with that, and, therefore, it doesn't refer to them.

== Plus four of the commandments have nothing to do with laws or morals but only the proper worship of an evil and non-existent desert deity.==

Scoffers and the Devil see it that way.

== No one is forcing anyone to accept porn and calling porn filth...==

Yes, they are, by placing it everywhere people, with their kids, go.

==... when the Christian religion is the most evil filth ever to exist on this planet is very hypocritical.==

That's what the Devil says, too.