Cross Should Survive Challenge

Jay --
I'm sorry to say it, but you are probably right about the issue of legal standing. This court, way overbalanced with conservative Republican appointees, routinely ducks out from under the serious questions, just like they did with Newdow's challenge to requiring his child to recite the Pledge of Allegiance including the clearly unconstitutional phrase "under God".

What is significant here is not the presence of the cross. What is significant is that another similar display was refused at the same location clearly violating the Establishment clause. In order to circumvent the Constitution, ownership of the property was transferred to the VFW in hpes that it might slip by on a technicality.

You can't win this one Jay and you know it. If the court upholds standing and leaves the cross there, they do so by declaring the cross of Christ to be just another secular symbol representing death. Whereas, if you lose the crucifix, minus Jesus, will still indicate eternal life in Christ. So the best you can hope for is that the court will weasel out of this decison too...

It has already been ruled that stigmatizing children in school by separating those of different religious belief is unconstitutional. Being told to sit silently and forego rightful participation in the POA will have the same result, eventually.

N. Lindzee Lindholm: "I am really SHOCKED, actually, that Mr. Eliasberg BUTCHERED the text on the memorial, obviously INTENTIONAL. Is that even ethical...to blatantly skew the text to undergird one's position, a certain malefaction?"

Because no one ever makes mistakes, of course.

p.s. That was the last line of The Declaration Of Independence.

another interesting portion:

with a firm reliance on the protection of _divine Providence.

--------
********

Notice, divine.

Divine-Having the nature of or being a deity. There is no seperation there. So, I would care to stand up for the right of America to be America again. To go back to our sacred divine Providence. As we were founded with.

So I am done with hearing how God should not be in our government. It is.

Cara Lea Floyd (Smith)

Cara, both of your quotes come from the Declaration of Independence, not from the U.S. Constitution.

Even if the Declaration of Independence were considered part of the law of the land, which it is not, the deity that was referred to was not the deity worshipped by Christians today. Today's Christians have created their own version of a deity that is nothing like the one that existed in 1776.

Merely being 'offended' does not give the plaintiff a legal green light to go to court to challenge this memorial.

Mr. Sekulow, how can I possibly describe the feelings I have when I see a cross? "Offended" doesn't even begin to express those feelings.

Perhaps the best way of describing it would be to compare it to the "feelings" of some Christians when they look at a crescent and star. Because those who attacked this nation were of the Islamic faith, albeit a perverted form of Islam, many Christians recoil with an almost instinctive, visceral fear and loathing at the sight of the symbol of Islam. They feel personally affronted and attacked, and they wonder why that symbol, which to them represents everything evil in the world, should even be displayed in this country. They fear those who profess the Islamic belief and would probably feel better if these people be put in prison for treason. Allowing Islamic people to serve in the U.S. military is, they believe, the height of stupidity and naivete. And all this despite the fact that the symbols of Islam in the U.S. are very few and far between. It is perfectly possible for Christians, and everyone else, to go about their daily affairs and never once see the crescent and star.

Those exact feelings come to my mind when I see a cross... every time I see a cross. I don't need to tell you about the wars fought and the holocausts carried out, all in the name of Christianity and the cross. "Offended" doesn't even begin to express the revulsion and detestation that I feel. Unfortunately, "offended" happens to be the only word that expresses those feelings... without starting a fight or without offending those Christians who are, in fact, good people but are blind to the horror that has been perpetrated in the name of Christianity over the ages and is still being perpetrated today.

Our government has wisely chosen not to permit displays of the symbol of Christian faith, or of any religious faith. on public property... property that I, as a citizen of the U.S., happen to own. Speaking of ownership, when did I or anyone else get to vote on the transfer of that property in the Mojave Desert to a private individual or group?

I am told to ignore the symbol of Christianity if it offends me. Sorry, but I cannot ignore it. But I do recognize that others have rights that are the same as mine, and that in a diverse society I need to accept the fact that Christianity exists and that Christians have the right to display their symbols on their own churches and on their own property. I can drive to and from work on a route that does not go past a Christian church. I can avoid the stores for one month of the year... although I really shouldn't have to. But when you put up a permanent monument on my land, then I am going to object as strenuously as possible. When you sell even a acre of my land without asking my permission, then I am going to object to that sale. When you try to revere the memory of all the soldiers... Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, Islamic, and atheist men and woman who gave their lives in defense of this country... with a Christian cross, then I will fight you to my dying breath.

How dare you!

We are battling “atheists” in the wrong arena. It has been the arena of their choosing: the arena of deception. And as we do battle there, they are systematically trying to take God out of America, and they are walking right into our schools and destroying out children. Enough is enough. Let’s do battle in the arena of our choosing: the arena of Truth.

In Psalm 14:1 it is written, “The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”

The Word of God says that the person says it, not that they believe it.

John 1:9 says, “The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.”

No person is without the revelation of God.

John 15:18 says, “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated Me first.”

It is impossible for someone to hate Christians without first hating Jesus. And it is impossible for someone to hate someone that they don’t believe exists.

PROOF OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD

(Have you been in those mind twisting, frustrating debates and arguments with professed “atheists” trying to prove to them that God exists? God set me free from that. It’s not your responsibility to prove the existence of God. It’s God’s responsibility. And He’s already done it. He has proven His existence through Creation, Conscience, and Christ, the Word of God.

You no longer have to try to prove the existence of God, but only to inform professed “atheists” that they already know God is there, God knows that they know, and He’s holding them accountable.)

Romans 1:18-20

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has make it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Creation proves the existence of God.

Romans 2:14-16

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Your conscience proves the existence of God.

Romans 10:18

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

Christ, the Word of God, proves the existence of God.

Since God gives witness of His existence to every person, no person can honestly say they do not believe there is a God.

So what is really going on?

Psalm 2:1-3

Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain?
The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.
“Let us break their chains,” they say,
“and throw off their fetters.”

(Rebellion against God is what really is going on.)

What is God’s response to this rebellion?

Psalm 2:4-9

The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them.
Then he rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying,
“I have installed my King on Zion, my holy hill.”
I will proclaim the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. You will rule them with an iron scepter; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

(The One you are rebelling against will still be enthroned as King. God’s purposes will prevail regardless of any rebellion.)

God, in his grace, now gives you a choice.

Psalm 2:10-12

Therefore, you kings, be wise; be warned you rulers of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry and you be destroyed in your way,
For his wrath can flare up in a moment.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

(A person can either continue in rebellion and be destroyed, or they can take refuge in Christ and escape God’s wrath.)

So, here’s the deal:

They know God is there, and He knows they know. And He’s holding them accountable.

For whatever reason, they are in rebellion against Him. It’s okay to talk to Him about why, but it’s not okay to continue in their rebellion.

He’s giving them the opportunity to turn away from this rebellion and turn to Christ.

The decision is theirs. But they must make one—stay in their rebellion and face destruction, or repent and find refuge in Christ.

But we must not let them continue to wage their battle in deception. They can’t take God away from us, and they can no longer seek to destroy out children.

Once AGAIN, nobody is "systematically trying to take God out of America". Just trying to keep religion and government separate, as the Constitution strives to do.
There is no law, and shall be "no law", which keeps "God" out of our schools; and there should be no law putting Him there either. The government must allow for personal choice. That's the thing that gets me, your intolerance of other views. It always seems fine with agnostics to allow others their god beliefs, why can't Christians be as tolerant of others?

When you write "they are walking right into our schools and destroying out children", I can only assume you you think it is destructive to allow people to reach their own conclusion. Sing, dance, or pray to whatever you want; just don't use the government to help you promote your religious views. If you are allowed to do that, then so are we. Perhaps you would see no problem with our POA incorporating the phrase "under no gods whatsoever"? If you give government the power to impose religious belief, you also give it the power to forbid it. Not at all what our Founding Fathers sought to do.
You may find the Bible to be "the arena of Truth"; while others might find it to be a work of fiction. You are not allowed to dictate to others what is religiously "correct", and we really wish you'd just stop trying. It strikes us as being "holier than thou", like you think you know more than everyone who doesn't share you beliefs...you don't, and we know you don't!

Re:UNGW In regards to keeping government seperate from religion. The Constitution ---------------- Amendment1 Congress shall make no law to respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government redress of grievances. C.F.

As a citizen we are given the right to life, liberty, and property.

Liberty would be the right of religion.

I do not see that we are to seperate ourselves from religion, in these pasages as your ealier post suggest. I do see however that you are able to practice your religion as a freedom of choice. It does not state however that we are to remove God out of our foundation documents of this country or our court systems as your ealier post suggest. If however the God of Christianity offends you , I don't know what to write here other to write, you are given a free will to choose for yourself as to what to believe. Seperation, I think not.

We are what we are a sovereign nation.

Not a godless, one.

If you try and take God out of things, you indeed get godless philosophies.

Thus contaminating the world with a view of no creator. I am not saying that every sentence you write or speak has to reference God, by any standards. I am saying that the God who created you want for you to know that you are love and appreciated.

C.F.

Mary-Lee

So your against the cross, eh?

I am sorry you feel so mortified by the very sight of it on our land.

It was used for crusify. So if you don't believe that Jesus rose again, that is your belief.

Now for those who have given there lives, Christians have. There are Christians who have killed people. I am sorry for the earlier Christians who did this to people. It does not however take away the sovereign God of Christianity. The one who created you. He gave you will and I would hope you could study the Bible a bit more to see the truth. It does not however have to be your choice. That is the thing, it is your choice. And I am certainly not going to convince you that all Christians behave like Christians. I have indeed exsposed to horrible things through Christians. This however is not our Lord, for our Lord loves us.

For our country, well if you are talking about The Declaration Of Independence: It is just that The Declaration Of Independence.

C.F.

"I have had enough godless people to last me a life time."

And I have had enough of God spouting people to last me. America= worship any god you wish, or no god at all if that is your belief, but don't try to use government to push your beliefs upon others.

I never was pushing anything. Looks, like an agnostic or athiest. A person consumed with themselves. A person only out to get what they want.

That would be selfish.

Of course not, that is because you rectify yourself above God. Clearly it makes sence otherwise it would have not penetrated your skin enough for you to want a to post a blog. 12:59

Choose your belief, clearly you even want to critisize those who even state that. Seems like there is a real problem upstairs in the nuthouse.

I suppose if you find that having no God in something is illuminating for you , than I have to ask why is that?

Do you find your own intelligence somehow far superior to God or you don't find trying to make a reverence of God in a document as a wonderful thing?

I suppose your mind is superior to a God of the universe than?

If you have not studied it out or you want a nothing reverence to God as our headship , than you get a nothing headship as a society. What I writing is that, if you take out God as your authority than you indeed get people as your authority figure or belief systems in place by recognizing their ideas a superior to God's. Yes, I know if you haven't studied out scripture you might find the general god of carma or whatever to be appealling. The only problem with this theory is that no body was found(in reference to Jesus). Not only that, but the deciples of Jesus during that time period were horribly murdered for the sake of believing and dieing for what they had exsperienced. So , like I have written before. The Bible states that Noah's Ark is resting on Mt. Ararat and there are findings of such in the ice glaciers still resting. So that would be interesting to note if you were believing in the general God why you wouldn't want The Ten Commandments in place. For they are true to the Word of God meaning , they keep everything in check.

Now if you want the god of whatever to rule and rain in government without our Ten Commandments in place, you have what we have today. People murdering children with their choice under policy of saying it is their belief system that they can do this through protected doctor applications of an abortion and the like. Of couse we have those murdering morning after pills as well as Embryonic Stem-Cell, which is indeed the murder of an individual. So take Thou Shalt Not Kill out of our government and you indeed have that. People who kill with no rule of authority over them, as if they found some sort of loop hole in the system.

God Bless,

Hopefully this will be rectified into a country which takes the right of an individual to murder children under authority away.

AMEN

Way to go Tom! I was going to try again, but decided it would be like masturbating with a cheese grater...painful, with no chance of a satisfying resolution.

No, sorry your so inclined to believe that the God who created you does not exist. Way to go Tom, cheese grater, no thanks. Cheese graters or those so inclined to think so highly of themselves as to point out some stupid comment of misspelled anything are just that, full of themselves and cheese. I will leave the grating up to you my boys, seeing how you see God who was crusified and died and resurrected for you as being nothing at all but a pure story . Like I wrote before Tommy boy, have you checked out Mt. Ararat. There were artifacts found which show fresh water lakes (meaning fossils from fresh water) before the flood. As well as evidence of the flood having taken place. Now you can go grate some more cheese, because I find the god of whatever exasperating and meaningless. For I know it is a false religion.

Have a nice day my friends.

"...because I find the god of whatever exasperating and meaningless. For I know it is a false religion."

Me too. See what I mean Tom? You can't get answers from the uneducated any more than you can get blood out of a turnip. You're trying to phlebotomize a turnip!

And the lawyer had no fear of the wolf. Not because of God, but because NOTHING can stomach such a lawyer.

It's like cipherin', or lernin' yer gozintas!

The "secular purpose" trap

What happens if the one observing the Cross sees a purpose different from the one intended?

In other words -- I intend a little secular purpose. You come along and decide to see no secular purpose, and you, wanting 100% secular, sue cuz YOU say that there is no secular purpose.

So, how much "secular purpose" must there be in, say, putting up a cross? Must it be 100%? Does the Constitution require 100% secularity? If you say it does, why "Freedom of 'Religion'" as first mention in the Bill of Rights?

Atheists say they have no belief [though they do; they believe something]. Therefore, the First Amendment's "religion" clause doesn't apply to them.

I am an average American who wonders how The Establishment Clause could be over turned. From what I have read, none of the cases that were used to establish this clause resulted in a state run religion. The Supreme Court has yet to make judgement on anyone act that has resulted in a state run religion, but is "prohibiting the free exercese thereof..." various religions because an act has occured. One act of religion doesn't establish a completed religion. Is there a method to over turning the Supreme Court's Establishment Clause. It's estamated that 86% of Americans believe in Jesus Christ. But the government continues to limit the majority of Americnans by limiting the free exercise of religion. Is there a way to bring a vote to the people over turning The Establishment Clause.