Do You Believe in Miracles?
10 Exercises to Stay Spiritually Fit
20 Scriptures That Bring Hope to Any Situation
5 Ways to Revive Your Dream!
7 Ways to Plant Seeds of Greatness in Your Life
20 Powerful Declarations to Fight Discouragement
5 Ways to Stay Healthy This Summer
5 Tips for Better Sleep
7 Top Health Issues Facing Today’s Women
Celebrities Who Won't Back Down
A Conversation with Minnesota Wild Center Matt Cullen
Yes, Gratitude Works!
10 Ways to To Handle Life Changes With Courage
The Fruits of Desire
Nurturing a Healthy Marriage
10 Ways to Get Over a Hurtful Past
Ten Things Every Dad Should Tell His Son
Why Did Jesus Have to Die?
Roman, Jewish, and Christian Perspectives
Click here for an updated and complete version of this series.
by Rev. Dr. Mark D. Roberts
Copyright © 2010 by Mark D. Roberts and Beliefnet
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Introduction
As we approach the season of Lent, and then Holy Week and Easter, I propose to consider the question: “Why did Jesus have to die?” At the outset, I must say that this isn’t an easy question to answer for several reasons. Let me mention three.
First, when it comes to the death of Jesus, we’re dealing with an historical event concerning which we have limited historical sources. We don’t have some of the sources that would make our task much easier, the diary of Pontius Pilate, for example, or notes from the proceedings of the Jewish council that examined Jesus prior to his crucifixion. Therefore, when I try to explain why Pilate or certain Jewish leaders believed that Jesus had to die, I’ll have to extrapolate from the evidence that is available to us. I do believe, however, that this evidence, both in the New Testament Gospels and in other ancient sources, is strong enough to allow us to formulate likely hypotheses concerning Roman and Jewish motivations for the crucifixion of Jesus.
Second, the question of why Jesus was put to death is a matter of considerable scholarly disagreement. For centuries it was common to put all the blame on “the Jews.” But the horror of the Holocaust combined with new historical insights has led scholars in almost completely the opposite direction. Many claim that “the Jews,” even Jewish leaders, had little or nothing to do with the death of Jesus. In my opinion, as you’ll see, the pendulum that had once swung way too far in the direction of “the Jews” has now swung too far back in the opposite “Romans only” direction. I’ll have more to say about this later.
I should add at this point that I am aware of the shameful history of anti-Semitism and the danger of anti-Semitism that is very much alive today. This does make it tricky to deal with the historical evidence in a straightforward way, because if one concludes that some Jews were somewhat responsible for the death of Jesus, this might fuel anti-Semitic attitudes and actions. So, I will say at the outset that nothing in the historical record justifies hatred of or mistreat of Jews, or any other people, for that matter.
Third, there is not one, simple, obvious answer to the question of why Jesus had to die. From a historical point of view, we have to deal with at least two perspectives, Roman and Jewish. In fact, I’ll show that there was more than one Jewish point of view on Jesus’ death. So it is really too simple to speak of “the Jewish perspective” on the necessity of Jesus’ death.
Furthermore, historical explanation doesn’t exhaust the realm of discourse when it comes to the reason for Jesus’ death. We also need to deal with the whole area of theology. We’ll want to know why, in light of his understanding of God, Jesus himself believed that he needed to die. Moreover, we must also examine early Christian thinking concerning why Jesus’ death was necessary for the salvation of the world. In the end, therefore, the answer to the simple question “Why did Jesus have to die?” will be anything but simple. It will have multiple layers and nuances.
Nevertheless, this is a task well worth the effort, both in the writing and in the reading. No matter what you think about Jesus, you will help yourself and your world if you’re able to discuss his death intelligently. This is especially true given the tendency of this conversation to become terribly anti-Semitic. In a world where hatred of Jews is on the increase, all thoughtful, compassionate human beings need to be informed about just who was responsible for the death of Jesus and why.
Finally, if, like me, you believe that the crucifixion of Jesus stands at the very center of history, then knowing why Jesus had to die is just about the most important bit of knowledge you can have.
In my next post I’ll lay out some basic parameters for the rest of this series: how I’m going to structure the series and some of the foundational facts upon which I’ll build the structure.
Where Do We Start When Considering the Death of Jesus? Some Basic Facts
Where should we start in our effort to discover why Jesus had to die? I propose to begin with some basic historical facts, facts that are affirmed by almost every historian and biblical scholar, even those who approach this question from a highly critical and skeptical starting point. So what are these facts:
Jesus was crucified. There were many ways in the first-century for a criminal to be put to death, including stoning, beheading, being torn apart by beasts, etc. Yet all the earliest sources attest to the crucifixion of Jesus. These sources include, in addition to the New Testament writings, the Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18.3.3, A.D. 95) and the Roman historian Tacitus (Annals 15.44, A.D. 109)(Photo: Painting by El Greco, “The Crucifixion,” 1596-1600)Jesus was crucified during the governorship and under the authority of Pontius Pilate. Once again, this basic fact is confirmed in Josephus and Tacitus in addition to the New Testament.
Pilate placed a sign on Jesus’ cross that read “The King of the Jews.” This fact is found in all four New Testament Gospels and in some later non-canonical gospels as well. This “title” helps to explain the nature of the charges against Jesus.
Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem on or near the Jewish feast of Passover. Again, all New Testament Gospels agree on these basic facts, and there is every reason to believe that they are accurate (though the precise timing of Jesus’ death in relationship to Passover is hard to pin down).
These basic facts, though apparently obvious and unspectacular, will actually prove to be very helpful as we try to figure out the reasons for Jesus’ death.
As I mentioned in my previous post, the question “Why did Jesus have to die?” doesn’t have a simple answer. I propose to address this question from four different perspectives:
• Roman: Why did Pontius Pilate think Jesus had to die?• Jewish: Why did some Jewish leaders think Jesus had to die?
• Jesus: Why did Jesus himself think that he had to die?
• Early Christian: Why did early Christians think Jesus had to die?
In my next post I’ll begin with the Roman perspective.
Click here for an updated and complete version of this series.
The fact that Jesus was crucified rather than stoned, hanged, or killed in some other way means that the Romans were ultimately responsible for his death. Of course this is clear in the biblical gospels. But even if we lacked such primary sources, the simple fact that a man was crucified in Jerusalem around A.D. 30 implies that, for some reason or other, he was condemned by Roman authorities. Jews in the first-century A.D. didn’t crucify people. This horrible means of execution was the prerogative of the Romans, who used it with chilling effect.
The Roman Practice of Crucifixion
If we want to know why a Roman authority, in this case, the prefect Pontius Pilate, would choose to crucify someone, we might look first at the Roman practice of crucifixion in general. Although Rome didn’t invent this means of execution, the nation perfected it as one of the most horrible means of putting criminals to death. In fact, not all Roman convicts sentenced to death were crucified. Crucifixion was reserved for the lowest of the low, and most of all for those who openly opposed Roman power. Commit a serious crime and Rome might cut off your head; rebel against Roman rule or upset Roman peace and you might be headed to a cross. I say “might be” because Roman citizens were protected from crucifixion, unless they happened to be treasonous soldiers. (Photo: The Via Appia in Rome. When the slave Spartacus led a rebellion against Rome in 73-71 B.C., the Romans finally prevailed. They crucified 6,000 men, stringing them along the Via Appia for 120 miles, from Rome to Capua.)
Why was crucifixion so horrible? For one thing, the victim experienced some of the most extreme pain that a person can experience and the duration of suffering often lasted several days. But, even beyond personal suffering, the crucified person experienced extreme shame in a world that valued honor supremely. Contrary to most portrayals of Jesus’ death, those sentenced to crucifixion were naked when attached to the cross, in full view of the masses.
The Romans made every effort to crucify people in public places, such as along major thoroughfares. The point was to augment the dishonor and suffering of the one being killed, not to mention his family and colleagues. (It seems, by the way, that the Romans did not crucify women.) As the Roman rhetorician Quintilian explained, “Whenever we crucify the guilty, the most crowded roads are chosen, where most people can see and be moved by this fear. For penalties relate not so much to retribution as to their exemplary effect” (Quintilian, Declamations 274). Thus the point of crucifixion was not only punishment, but also deterrence.
Not surprisingly, the Romans crucified Jews when they rebelled against imperial rule. I’ll examine a couple of telling instances in my next post.
In my last post I began to examine the Roman practice of crucifixion, arguing that if we want to understand why a Roman governor had Jesus crucified, we should first understand why Rome used crucifixion in general. What we discovered was that crucifixion, in addition to being an extremely horrific punishment of criminals, was thought to be an effective deterrent against sedition. “Watch someone get crucified for challenging our authority,” the Romans believed, “and you’ll be unlikely to challenge our authority yourself.” If you’ve seen The Passion of the Christ, you can certainly understand Roman logic here. Crucifixion was cruel beyond cruel.
Roman Crucifixion Among the Jews
Even the threat of crucifixion didn’t completely squelch attempts to overthrow Roman rule, however, least of all among the Jews. Shortly after the death of Herod the Great in 4 B.C., thousands of Jews sought to toss the Romans out of Judea. Of course the Romans didn’t take kindly to this, sending an army to squash the rebellion. When the rebels fled into the country, the Roman general Varus pursued them. The first-century Jewish historian Josephus describes what happened next:
Upon this, Varus sent a part of his army into the country, to seek out those that had been the authors of the revolt; and when they were discovered, he punished some of them that were most guilty, and some he dismissed: now the number of those that were crucified on this account were two thousand. (Antiquities 17.10.10)
Two thousand rebels crucified at one time! Now that would surely give restless Jews second thoughts before challenging Roman tyranny again. (Photo: The Arch of Titus in Rome, which celebrates the Roman victory over the Jews in A.D. 70.)
Seven decades later, thousands upon thousands of Jews revolted against Roman rule. For a short time they appeared to have prevailed. But, once again, Rome sent a superior military force to Judea. Soon the Jews were trapped in Jerusalem, surrounded by the Roman army besieging the city. Recognizing their hopeless condition, some Jews actually tried to escape, but to no avail. According to Josephus, when they were caught, “they were first whipped, and then tormented with all sorts of tortures before they died, and were then crucified before the wall of the city” (Jewish War, 5.11.1). This happened to at least 500 people daily, according to Josephus. So disgusting was the mass torture of Jewish prisoners that even the Roman General Titus felt pity on them. But he let the brutality continue. Why? Josephus explains: “The main reason why he did not forbid that cruelty was this, that he hoped the Jews might perhaps yield at that sight, out of fear lest they might themselves afterwards be liable to the same cruel treatment” (Jewish War, 5.11.1).
To conclude what we have learned about Romans and crucifixion, Rome reserved crucifixion for the worst of criminals, especially for those who stirred up rebellion against the state. Because the point of crucifixion, beyond punishment, was deterrence, crosses were placed in public places so people would learn to fear the wrath of Rome. When Jews challenged Roman authority, they, like others rebels against Rome, were crucified if caught.
But is this relevant of the case of Jesus? Did Jesus challenge Roman authority such that Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea in the time of Jesus, believed he must be crucified? Does what we have learned about Roman crucifixion help to explain Jesus’ own death? To these questions I’ll turn in my next post.
Introduction to Pontius Pilate
If we’re going to understand the Roman perspective on the death of Jesus, we need to know something of the Roman man who was legally responsible for his crucifixion: Pontius Pilate. Traditionally, Pilate has been seen by Christians in relatively positive terms, as one who really didn’t want to crucify Jesus but who did so because he was compelled to by the Jewish leaders and crowds. This image of Pilate, that seems to emerge from the New Testament gospels, doesn’t fit with what we know about Pontius Pilate from historical sources, including the gospels themselves. Let me survey this evidence briefly.
Pontius Pilate was the governor of Judea from 26-37 A.D. An inscription discovered in the ruins of a Roman theater in Caesarea reveals that Pilate’s official Roman title was “prefect” (Latin, praefectus). In this role he was ultimately responsible for all matters in Judea, including judicial and financial affairs. Pilate governed from the provincial capital of Judea, Caesarea (Maratima), a city on the Mediterranean coast, about 75 miles northwest of Jerusalem. He would make the trip to Jerusalem only when necessary. Pilate was accountable to the governor of Syria, through whom he was ultimately subservient to the Roman Emperor. (Photo: This inscription identifies Pontius Pilate as the [Praef]ectus Iuda[eae]).
Pilate does not figure prominently in first-century Roman histories, a fact that suggests that he was a relatively insignificant leader. Moreover, the assignment to govern Judea was no plum, and some of those who served in Pilate’s position were known to complain about it. Not only was it potentially a dead-end job, but also it was fraught with complications.
The complications had largely to do with what the Romans would see as the peculiarities and propensities of the Jews. The peculiarities were, by and large, Jewish religious sensibilities that put them at odds with Roman norms. Jews, for example, did not follow the Roman model in welcoming all sorts of gods into their pantheon. On the contrary, Jews would die for their belief in one and only one God. Jewish propensities had to do with general unrest and fairly regular attempts by some Jews to rebel against Roman rule. When one became prefect of Judea, one could expect trouble.
Pilate’s inability (or unwillingness) to respect Jewish sensibilities is seen in an event recorded by the Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 18.3.1). Unlike previous governors, when Pilate took charge, he brought images of Caesar into Jerusalem in order to display them. This enraged the Jewish population, who took this as a violation of their law and as an insult. Multitudes of people traveled to Caesarea in order to ask Pilate to remove the images. At first he refused and, when the petitioners persisted, he was prepared to kill them. But when they showed themselves willing to die rather than have their laws violated, Pilate finally relented. In another instance when he offended Jewish sensibilities, Pilate did not show mercy, and those who protested were slaughtered by soldiers under Pilate’s command (Antiquities, 18.3.2).
The New Testament actually confirms this picture of a cruel Pilate. In Luke 13:1 we read, “At that very time there were some present who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.” We don’t know anything else about this incident. But it appears that, for some reason, Pilate killed some Galileans who had come to the Jerusalem temple in order to offer sacrifices to God. Yet, not only did Pilate have them killed, he also had their own blood mingled with the blood of the animals they had sacrificed. Talk about adding insult to injury!
The first-century Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria once wrote a letter to Caesar, in which, among other things, he complained about the harshness of Pontius Pilate. Philo blames Pilate explicitly for: “briberies, insults, robberies, outrages, wanton injustices, constantly repeated executions without trial, and ceaseless and grievous cruelty.” (Legatio ad Gaium, 301-302). Even granting Philo’s bias against Pilate, this text doesn’t reflect well upon Pilate’s governorship. In the end, he was removed from office by the Syrian governor, Vitellius, though we don’t know exactly why.
But what about the image of Pilate as the reflective leader who is reticent to kill Jesus, and who even converses with Jesus about the nature of truth? I’ll address this picture in greater detail later. But for now, I’d simply observe that the gospel accounts of Jesus’ trial can be read as confirming the negative image of Pilate.
Pilate’s ultimate responsibility was to oversee Judean affairs, to squash outright rebellion, to keep the tax money flowing to Rome, and, in general, to preserve the fragile peace of the region. And it is this, which, above all, seemed to be at risk when Jesus came to Jerusalem around the feast of Passover. In my next post in this series I’ll examine the peculiar dynamics of Jerusalem in the time of the festival.
The Roman Perspective, Part 4
As I explained in my last post, Pontius Pilate, the prefect of Judea during the time of Jesus, governed his territory from Caesarea, a city on the Mediterranean sea about 75 miles northwest of Jerusalem. Immediate authority over Jerusalem itself he had delegated to Caiaphas, whom Pilate had appointed high priest of the Jewish temple.
Pilate and the Danger of Passover
But, each year during his tenure in Judea, Pilate journeyed to Jerusalem in the spring. He wanted to be in this city during the Jewish celebration of Passover. It’s not that he had any fondness for the Jews and their rituals. Rather, Pilate needed to be in Jerusalem at this time to preserve order. He didn’t trust Caiaphas with such an important task at such a volatile time.
The Passover was, after all, a festival in which Jews remembered how God had delivered them from foreign domination. During the celebration of the Passover meal they not only thanked God for his deliverance in the past, but also prayed for him to do so again. Thus the Passover itself could easily inspire anti-Roman feelings, if not outright rebellion.
Moreover, the population of Jerusalem swelled greatly during the festival. Though it’s difficult to determine precisely the population of Jerusalem during the time of Roman rule, 35,000 wouldn’t be too far off base. During the Passover, however, this number swelled by a figure of ten or more. Josephus reports that 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 people gathered in the city for the festival (Jewish War, 2.14.3, 6.9.3). While most scholars believe that Josephus exaggerated, his estimates testify to the large number of pilgrims who came to Jerusalem for Passover. A more conservative estimate would be in the 300,000-400,000 range. Pilate knew that crowds of Jews jammed together in a small area was a formula for disaster. (Photo: A picture of a crowd in Jerusalem, gathered by the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in 1989.)
Given the themes of Passover and the massive temporary population of Jerusalem, it’s easy to see why Pilate felt it necessary to come to the city and why he would have done so with trepidation. Pilate was well aware of the fact that Jerusalem was a powder keg ready to blow during Passover. In fact, Josephus, talking about an earlier ruler who had tyrannized the Jews, mentions that “the nation of the Jews made an insurrection against him at a festival; for at those feasts seditions are generally begun” (Jewish War, 1.4.3, emphasis added).
Pilate didn’t come to Jerusalem unprepared. To help keep the peace, he brought with him a few thousand Roman soldiers from Syria. But, even then, the odds would not be in his favor if the Jews decided to stir up rebellion, since the soldiers were outnumbered by a factor of at least one hundred to one.
Given the tenuous peace of Jerusalem, Pilate must have been greatly distressed by early reports about Jesus’ actions in Jerusalem. This popular prophet from Nazareth had been welcomed into the city by a crowd of his followers who hailed him as a conquering king. Then, Jesus created a ruckus in the Jewish temple, even prohibiting sacrifices from being offered for several hours. So, while Pilate might have smirked to think of the distress this had given Caiaphas, nevertheless he’d be worried. What was Jesus’ agenda? What had he come to Jerusalem to do? Was he seditious? Was he fomenting rebellion against Rome? Pilate’s initial strategy was to watch and wait. Maybe, just maybe, he’d be lucky, and the Passover would conclude without incident. Then Jesus would go back to Galilee where he came from, and Pilate would return to Caesarea, where he could govern Judea a safe distance away from the time bomb of Jerusalem.
Pilate’s hopes for an uneventful Passover were dashed when, early on Friday morning, the problem posed by Jesus of Nazareth exploded in his face. In my next post, I’ll examine more closely Pilate’s interaction with Jesus and his accusers.
In my last two posts in this series on the death of Jesus, I offered a picture of Pontius Pilate and described the unique dangers he faced in Jerusalem during the Jewish celebration of Passover. In light of this background, today I’ll examine the biblical account of Pilate’s interaction with Jewish leaders.
Pilate’s Encounter with Jesus and the Jewish Leaders
Early on Friday morning, after Jesus of Nazareth had entered Jerusalem, Pontius Pilate was awakened by a group of Jewish leaders who had brought Jesus to him with the intention of having Jesus crucified. They accused Jesus of “perverting our nation, forbidding us to pay taxes to the emperor, and saying that he himself is the Messiah, a king” (Luke 23:2). When Pilate questioned Jesus, the accused was strangely quiet. Finally the governor cut to the chase. “Are you the king of the Jews?” he asked. “You say so,” was all Jesus said in reply (Luke 23:3). When Pilate mentioned to the Jewish leaders that their charges against Jesus weren’t persuasive, they added, “He stirs up the people by teaching throughout all Judea, from Galilee where he began even to this place” (Luke 23:5). It’s likely that this was not news to Pilate, who had probably been following the unusual exploits of Jesus for some time. Roman governors kept an eye out for Jewish prophets who announced the coming of God’s kingdom. (Photo: Mihály Munkácsy, Christ in front of Pilate, 1881.)
Once the Jewish leaders had brought Jesus to Pilate, the question of his fate lay in the governor’s hands. Certainly he could follow the recommendation of the leaders, including the high priest, Caiaphas, whom he had appointed. But killing Jesus had a considerable downside. Pilate was surely aware of Jesus’ popularity among the people. He might even have known before Friday that the Jewish leaders were trying to do away with Jesus, but were reticent to do so because he was so popular with the people. Killing Jesus might well have incited the people to riot (Mark 14:2), something neither the Jewish officials nor Pilate would have wanted. If Pilate were perceived by the people as the one responsible for the death of their popular prophet, then he might end up causing a ruckus or even a revolt that could very well lead to his own downfall.
Yet Pilate would surely have preferred to get Jesus out of the way somehow. Though he was not seditious in the ordinary sense – Jesus carried no weapons, organized no army, and had not assaulted any Roman authorities – nevertheless the Nazarene was clearly a rabble-rouser from Pilate’s point of view. And even if he didn’t explicitly espouse the overthrow of Rome, he certainly flirted with the seditious language of kingship.
Two other factors contributed to Pilate’s reticence to execute Jesus. First, his interaction with Jesus convinced him that the Galilean was no ordinary insurrectionist. It’s hard to reconstruct from the Gospel accounts exactly what Pilate thought of Jesus. If he truly believed him to be innocent and no threat to Rome, then it’s unlikely that he would have had Jesus crucified. But, Pilate must have seen that Jesus was in a completely different league from the others he had crucified. (Of course I’m aware that Christian tradition paints Pilate as a truth-seeker who genuinely believes in Jesus’ innocence. But this image doesn’t fit what we know about Pilate from history, not to mention the indisputable fact that Pilate himself was, in the end, responsible for Jesus’ death. It’s very hard to imagine that Pilate was bullied, either by Jewish leaders or by the mob, into doing something that he really didn’t want to do. I believe that many of the statements in the gospels that seem to reflect the “noble Pilate” were in fact originally spoken by the governor in order to incite the Jews to accept greater responsibility for Jesus’ death, thus exonerating Pilate in the eyes of the people. Or, in other cases, I believe Pilate’s tone was ironic or sarcastic. When he asked Jesus, “What is truth?” Pilate wasn’t beginning a philosophical dialogue, but simply mocking Jesus, who had just spoken of “belonging to the truth” (John 18:37-38).
The second factor that contributed to Pilate’s reticence to execute Jesus was a recommendation from his wife that he should “have nothing to do with” Jesus. Pilate’s wife claimed to have “suffered a great deal because of a dream about him” (Matthew 27:19). Pilate, like most pagans, was in all likelihood quite superstitious, and his wife’s nightmare would have spooked him as well.
From Pilate’s perspective, what would have been the best outcome of this whole mess? Somehow get Jesus to stop causing trouble, but without inciting the people to riot. If silencing Jesus required his death, then so be it, but let it be someone else’s fault other than Pilate’s. If Jesus could be shut down by some other means – like flogging – then this would also be an acceptable option.
In my next post I’ll finish explaining the necessity of Jesus’ death from the Roman perspective of Pontius Pilate.
The Roman Perspective, Part 6
In my last post I began to describe Pontius Pilate’s predicament on the Friday morning after Jesus had entered Jerusalem. The problematic prophet had been brought to Pilate by several Jewish leaders who demanded that he be crucified. But, for reasons I outlined previously, Pilate was reticent. Most of all, he didn’t want to incite the crowds who had gathered in Jerusalem for Passover. Silencing Jesus was a fine idea, but, from Pilate’s perspective, it had to be done in a why that protected him from the wrath of the Jewish people.
Pilate’s Decision to Have Jesus Crucified
Pilate tried passing the buck. He told the Jewish leaders to judge Jesus themselves, but they averred that they couldn’t execute him (John 18:31-32). He said, perhaps sarcastically, that they should go ahead and crucify him themselves (John 19:6-7), even though Pilate knew that crucifixion was legal only under Roman authority. At one point during the “trial” of Jesus, Pilate tried to pass the buck to Herod Antipas, who, as Tetrarch over Galilee, had the legal right to put Jesus to death. But Herod didn’t grab the bait. Instead, he used his meeting with Jesus as an occasion to mock him (Luke 23:6-12). (Photo: Nicolaes Maes, “Christ Before Pilate,” c. 1670.)
When the responsibility for Jesus’ fate fell back upon Pilate’s shoulders, he preferred to take the course of least resistance: have Jesus flogged, which would surely silence him for a while, and which, Pilate hoped, would keep the people from going on a rampage. But many of the Jewish leaders, combined with a mob that gathered outside of Pilate’s headquarters, pressed for Jesus’ crucifixion. Three factors seemed to have persuaded Pilate that executing Jesus was the best course of action. First, his reticence to kill Jesus appeared to put his loyalty to the emperor in doubt (John 19:12). Even the slightest appearance of imperial disloyalty could have terminal implications for Pilate. Second, the Jews who had gathered in his courtyard, although a tiny percentage of the current population of Jerusalem, were fervent enough in their desire for Jesus’ death that Pilate believed he could convincingly lay the blame on them. Third, his reticence to crucify Jesus was itself starting to cause a riot, which was the very thing Pilate was attempting to avoid by not executing Jesus (Matt 27:24). So his primary motivation for keeping Jesus alive – maintenance of order – was no longer valid. Jesus had to die.
In sentencing Jesus to death, Pilate revealed himself to be devious, if not spineless. He sent Jesus to the cross. The responsibility for this decision was his – at least from a legal-historical point of view. Yet when announcing Jesus’ fate, Pilate tried to avoid taking responsibility for his action. Symbolically washing his hands in front of the crowd, he said, “I am innocent of this man’s blood” (Matthew 27:24). Of course this wasn’t true. No matter now much others might have urged Pilate to take Jesus’ life, in the end, he and he alone had the authority to make that fateful decision.
The fact that Pilate had Jesus crucified strongly suggests that he saw Jesus as a threat to Roman order. Though not your ordinary brigand or revolutionary, Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God (not Caesar) and accepted adulation as a messianic (kingly) figure. Moreover, even if his answers to Pilate were minimal, Jesus didn’t reject the charge that he claimed to be king of the Jews. So, even though Jesus wasn’t your run-of-the-mill Zealot, he was still the sort of person who was dangerous to Rome, and was therefore worthy of death, at least from the Roman point of view.
Pilate’s legal justification for crucifying Jesus appeared on the sign attached to Jesus’ cross: “The King of the Jews.” The wording and placement of this sign tells us much about Pilate’s ultimate motivation for killing Jesus. On the one hand, Jesus was being crucified because he dared to make a claim to kingship. On the other, by identifying the crucified Jesus as “King of the Jews,” Pilate was mocking Jesus, the Jewish people, and their kingdom aspirations – all in one ironic statement. In a manner consistent with what we know about Pilate from other sources, he was saying, “Here you go, you Jews. Here is your king – beaten to a pulp, powerless, a victim of superior Roman power.” Furthermore, by crucifying Jesus, Pilate also held him up as a persuasive deterrent: “Next time you think about having someone other than Caesar as your king, remember the crucifixion of Jesus, the King of the Jews.”
Why Did Jesus Have to Die? The Roman Perspective: Conclusion
From a Roman perspective, why did Jesus have to die?
• Because he disturbed Roman order.
• Because he spoke seditiously of a coming kingdom other than that of Caesar.
• Because he allowed himself to be called “King of the Jews.”
• Because he made a nuisance of himself at the wrong time (Passover), in the wrong
place (Jerusalem), in the presence of the wrong people (Pilate and the temple
leadership under his command).
• Because his crucifixion would be a powerful deterrent that might keep other Jews from
following in his footsteps.
In my next post I’ll begin to look at the death of Jesus from one Jewish perspective.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 1
Placing This Conversation in Context
Before I proceed to discuss one Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death, I must say a bit about the contemporary context for this conversation. For centuries, many Christians hated Jews. Part of the Christians’ justification for their hatred was their belief that “the Jews killed Christ.” Even though Jesus himself had called his followers to love their enemies, somehow the belief that “the Jews killed Christ” justified a very un-Christ-like hatred of all Jews. This sort of twisted reasoning contributed to the unspeakable horror of the Holocaust, in which over six million Jews were murdered by the Nazis.
The ugly history of anti-Semitism makes it difficult to talk objectively about Jewish involvement in the death of Jesus. If one suggests that some Jews were in some way responsible for Jesus’ death, this person runs the risk of being labeled anti-Semitic. When I was in graduate school, I was encouraged to ask all sorts of creative and critical questions about early Christian history. But when it came to the death of Jesus, there was an unspoken rule that prohibited even discussing the possibility of some Jewish responsibility for the death of Jesus. The party line was that the Romans killed Jesus for their own reasons and that the early Christians made up the parts of the passion narrative that implicate Jews. The Christians did so, we were told, partly because they weren’t getting along with Jews during the latter half of the first-century A.D., and partly because they wanted to improve their relationship with the Roman Empire. This theory – filled with more holes than Swiss cheese – was something my colleagues and I were not welcome to examine critically. It was simply off limits. The painful history of anti-Semitism required that the history of early Christianity be told in a certain way, whether it actually happened that way or not. (Photo: Anti-Semitic graffiti in Lithuania in 2005.)
Therefore, before I discuss Jewish involvement in the death of Jesus, I must say three things quite clearly:
1. Anti-Semitism is wrong. From a Christian perspective, it is a sin. No matter who was actually responsible for the death of Jesus, there is no excuse for anti-Semitism. It’s something that Christians and all sensible people should oppose.
2. Even if “the Jews” were completely responsible for Jesus’ death (which I’ve already shown to be false, given the involvement of Pontius Pilate), this would in no way justify anti-Semitism today.
3. Even if a Christian considered “the Jews” to be his or her enemies, that Christian would be compelled by the very words of Jesus to love the Jews, not to hate them.
4. Anti-Semitism is alive and well today (or, alive and sick, perhaps). All moral people, including Christians, should reject and oppose it. Anti-Semitism is morally wrong, unjustifiable, and unchristian.
As you can infer from this introduction, I am going to argue that some Jews were involved in the crucifixion of Jesus, and that they believed that Jesus had to die. But, I think it’s historically incorrect to speak of “The Jewish Perspective” on the necessity of Jesus’ death. If we wish to be accurate, we must talk in terms of “One Jewish Perspective” on the question: “Why did Jesus have to die?” I’ll explain what I mean in my next post.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 2
Why “One” Jewish Perspective?
As a young Christian, I had a clear picture of what happened to Jesus in the last week of his life. This picture resulted from my knowledge of the Gospels, and, to a great extent, from images I had seen in Sunday School booklets and filmstrips. My mind had been impressed with scenes of Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, of his “trial” before Pilate, and of his being assaulted by Jewish leaders. These images led me to believe that Jerusalem in the time of Jesus was a relatively small town inhabited by a relatively small number of Jews, and that the same Jews who had welcomed Jesus into town as a king on Sunday had turned against him on Friday. From my juvenile viewpoint, “the Jews” of Jerusalem had, as a single group, both hailed Jesus and then condemned him. Since only a few close disciples supported Jesus until the bitter end, it would have seemed appropriate to me to speak of “the” Jewish perspective on why Jesus had to die. (Photo: Jesus on Palm Sunday in a classic film version of his life. For the other side of the story, check out this video from Vintage 21 Church.)
I no longer believe that my youthful picture of Jesus’ last week was historically accurate, though I do believe that the New Testament Gospels provide historically reliable viewpoints on what really happened that week. For one thing, the actual scale of life in Jerusalem was far greater than anything I had imagined. As I explained earlier in this series, it’s likely that the normal population of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus was around 35,000. But during the festival of Passover the population swelled to eight or ten times that number, perhaps even more.
This means, among other things, that a tiny percentage of the overall population of Jerusalem actually welcomed Jesus into the city on Palm Sunday or called for his crucifixion early on Good Friday. Since scholars cannot agree on the precise location of Pilate’s headquarters, we cannot say definitively how many people might have gathered in his courtyard to call for Jesus’ death. This number is probably less than 500, possibly quite a bit less. What this means, therefore, is that something like .2% of the Jews in Jerusalem were demonstrably eager to have Jesus crucified.
But, one might object, perhaps this tiny percentage represented the majority. This objection is unlikely for three reasons:
First, we know from the Gospels that Jesus was, for the most part, very popular among the masses (for example, Matt 4:25; 8:1; 9:8; 12:15; 13:2; 14:14; 15:30; 20:29; 21:8).Second, we also know that the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem who wanted to have Jesus killed hesitated precisely because Jesus was so popular among the masses there (Matt 21:46). Nothing in the Gospel records suggests that this popularity ended magically by Good Friday.
Third, in fact the Gospel records suggest that large numbers of Jews were deeply distressed by the death of Jesus. For example, as Jesus was walking along the Via Dolorosa, Luke tells us that “A great number of the people followed him, and among them were women who were beating their breasts and wailing for him” (Luke 23:27). Then, after Jesus was crucified, the crowds who “saw what had taken place, . . . returned home, beating their breasts” (Luke 24:48). In other words, vast numbers of Jews were horrified by the death of Jesus.
Thus it’s historically accurate to speak, not of “the” Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death, but of several diverse Jewish perspectives. It’s quite likely that the majority of Jews in Jerusalem did not want Jesus killed at all. But the perspective that had greatest impact on the fate of Jesus was that of Caiaphas and other principal leaders of Jerusalem. This is the “one” perspective I’ll begin to examine in my next post.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 3
The Perspective of Jewish Leaders in Jerusalem
Although the majority of Jews in Jerusalem may not have wanted Jesus to die, or may have had no opinion either way, some of the most influential Jews did see Jesus’ death as necessary. All four New Testament Gospels testify to the key role of the “chief priests” and other Jewish leaders in the effort to have Jesus crucified. The chief priests included the high priest Caiaphas, who was appointed by Pilate, and other priests who provided leadership, not only for the temple, but also for all religious and civic affairs in Jerusalem. Some other learned and powerful Jewish leaders joined with the chief priests in the effort to silence Jesus once and for all.
Although not providing specific names or titles, the first-century Jewish historian Josephus concurs with what we find in the New Testament. In his Jewish Antiquities, Josephus devotes a short section to the antics of Pontius Pilate. In this context the historian writes that Pilate, “at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us,” had Jesus “condemned to the cross” (Antiquities 18.3.3). Unfortunately Josephus does not explain why these “principal men,” presumably the chief priests and other leaders, had it in for Jesus.
Why did leading Jews in Jerusalem believe it was necessary for Jesus to die? Part of the answer to this question comes from the Gospel of John, in a scene where a group of Jewish leaders was debating the problem of Jesus’ problematic popularity. “If we let him go on like this,” they said, “everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both our holy place and our nation” (John 11:48). Jesus was stirring up the people with his message of God’s kingdom and with his mighty deeds, and he wasn’t the first to walk down this perilous road. Others had done so before him and the result hadn’t been good for the Jews. Inevitably the Romans swept into Judea with their armies, slaughtering some, crucifying others, and taking still others into slavery. They had no hesitation about destroying an entire city if only some its residents had challenged Roman authority. So it would be logical for Jewish leaders to fear that Jesus might indeed bring down Roman wrath upon both the temple and the nation. (Photo: The ruins of a theatre in Sepphoris in Galilee. Shortly after Jesus was born, a man named Judas led a makeshift militia in a successful assault against the royal palace. Of course Rome didn’t wink at Judas and his gang. Ultimately the Roman army recaptured Sepphoris, taking all of its residents as slaves and burning the city to the ground. (See my book Jesus Revealed, p. 104)
Ruins of the coliseum at Sepphoris
In the midst of this debate about the problem of Jesus, John records the counsel of the high priest, Caiaphas: “You know nothing at all! You do not understand that it is better for you to have one man die for the people than to have the whole nation destroyed” (John 11:50). Since Caiaphas did not believe that Jesus fit the job description of God’s messiah, and since he shared with his colleagues the fear of Roman reprisals against the Jews, his argument made sense. Better that Jesus should die than the whole nation be destroyed.
When Caiaphas and his cohort finally captured Jesus and brought him to Pilate so that he might be crucified, their accusations touched upon several ways he was endangering the Jewish people. “We found this man perverting our nation,” they said, “forbidding us to pay taxes to the emperor, and saying that he himself is the Messiah, a king” (Luke 23:2). When Pilate was underwhelmed, they added, “He stirs up the people by teaching throughout all Judea, from Galilee where he began even to this place” (Luke 23:5). In other words, Jesus was both undermining orderly Roman rule (forbidding taxes, claiming to be king, stirring up the people) and seducing the Jewish people to abandon their religious commitments (keeping the Sabbath, offering sacrifices in the temple, separating themselves from “sinners”).
Although we Christians may want to argue that these accusations were false, it’s easy to see how, from the perspective of the Jewish leaders, they appeared to be true, dangerously true. Moreover, we find in Jewish sources basic confirmation of what Luke puts upon the lips of the leaders. In the Babylonian Talmud (a fifth-century collection of earlier Jewish oral traditions), we read the following:
There is a tradition: They hanged Yeshu on the Sabbath of the Passover. But for forty days before that a herald went in front of him (crying), “Yeshu is to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and seduced Israel and led them astray from God”. (b. Sanhedrin 43a)
Although the details don’t fit perfectly with the New Testament accounts, the charges against Jesus confirm what we have already seen. Jesus was said to “practice sorcery,” which is how his miracles would have appeared to his opponents, and which explains his ability to arouse the people. He also “seduced Israel and led them astray from God.” How similar this is to the charges in Luke 23, where Jesus was said to have perverted the nation and stirred up the people.
The concerns of Jewish leaders and their desire to get rid of him would probably not have come to fruition except for something Jesus did to provoke their concerted effort to have him crucified. I’ll examine this action in my next post.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 4
The “Crime” of Jesus
My last post in this series focused on the reasons why some Jewish leaders in Jerusalem believed that it was necessary for Jesus to die. The bottom line? He was a threat to their conception of faith and national life, indeed, to the very existence of the Jewish people. If left unchecked, Jesus would either pervert the Jewish nation with his peculiar notions of the kingdom of God, or he would bring down the wrath of Rome upon Judea, leading to its destruction. Either way, Jesus needed to be taken out of the game – permanently.
The concerns of the Jewish leaders, however pressing they might have been, would probably not have been enough to bring about Jesus’ execution except for something Jesus himself did, something shocking, unexpected, and utterly unacceptable from the perspective of the Jewish leaders. I’m speaking of his activity in the temple, that which Christians call “the cleansing of the temple.” Here’s Mark’s account of this scandalous action:
Then they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who were selling and those who were buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold doves; and he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple. He was teaching and saying, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.” (Mark 11:15-17)
How did the Jewish leaders respond to Jesus’ action? “And when the chief priests and the scribes heard it, they kept looking for a way to kill him” (Mark 11:18).
Why was Jesus’ behavior in the temple worthy of death?
First of all, he was suggesting that the current state of the temple was unacceptable and that the temple leadership – the chief priests – were unworthy of respect. They were like a bunch of robbers.
Model of the temple in Jerusalem. Photo with permission of holylandphotos.org.
Second, Jesus actually prohibited the crucial function of the temple: the offering of sacrifices. From the point of view of the priests, he was keeping the Jewish people from worshipping God in the way God had prescribed – a serious if not a capital offense.
Third, Jesus’ activity in the temple was consistent with his earlier actions, whereby he implied that the temple was no longer necessary. If Jesus himself could forgive sins (Mark 2:1-12), then why bother with the temple? Thus Jesus was saying to a temple-centered religion: The very center of your relationship with God is wrong. Such a critique would not be taken lightly by those who embraced a temple-centered Judaism.
But it wasn’t only what Jesus did in the temple that provoked a negative response from the leaders, but also what he said. You see, by referring to the temple as a “den of robbers,” Jesus was doing far more than insulting the chief priests. He was actually quoting from the prophet Jeremiah. In Jeremiah 7, the prophet condemned the tendency of Israel to put their faith in the existence of the temple. Many in Jeremiah’s day believed that they could do all sorts of evil deeds without fear of punishment because God’s temple was in their midst. The temple was their spiritual safety net, so to speak. But God was neither fooled nor pleased. So, through Jeremiah the Lord prophesied,
Here you are, trusting in deceptive words to no avail. Will you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make offerings to Baal, and go after other gods that you have not known, and then come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, “We are safe!” – only to go on doing all these abominations? Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your sight? . . . And now, because you have done all these things, says the LORD, . . . therefore I will do to the house that is called by my name . . . just what I did to Shiloh. (Jer 7:8-14)
And what did the Lord do to Shiloh? He destroyed it and the tabernacle it once housed (Psalm 78:60).
In the day of Jeremiah, the people had turned the temple into a “den of robbers,” a place of supposed safety for those who did evil deeds out in the world. For this reason, God promised to destroy the temple, which he did in 586 B.C. Similarly, by quoting from Jeremiah 7 as he overturned the tables in the temple, Jesus implied that the same judgment applied in his day. Those who took refuge in the temple could not presume to be safe. God was about to destroy the temple because of the sin of the people, even as he had done to Shiloh and to the first temple in Jerusalem.
Thus Jesus’ action in the temple, combined with his words, not only insulted and upset the chief priests, but also conveyed God’s judgment upon the temple itself. This crime against the temple could not be tolerated, as far as its leaders were concerned. Jesus, the blasphemous criminal, deserved, not only to be silenced, but also to die. In my next post I’ll examine two fascinating parallels that will help us to see that the Jewish leaders who condemned Jesus were acting in ways fully consistent with their predecessors and successors. Right or wrong, they were doing exactly what Jewish leaders in their position had done and would do again. They thought they were defending God’s temple and, indeed, God himself.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 5
Jewish Leaders Respond to Offenses Against the Temple
In my last post, I suggested that one of the major causes of Jesus’ death was his “cleansing” of the temple. By interrupting the sacrificial system and by quoting Jeremiah’s own condemnation of the temple, Jesus was threatening the very core of Judaism in his day. In the perspective of the Jewish leaders, this would have been blasphemy – speaking against God himself.
For those whose experience and viewpoint is far removed from that of the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem, it may seem that their intended punishment simply doesn’t fit the crime. But, if we look for historical parallels, we find two incidents in which other leaders acted much as did Caiaphas and his associates when dealing with Jesus.
Rembrandt van Rijn, "Jeremiah Lamenting the Destruction of Jerusalam," 1630
The first example comes from the ministry of Jeremiah, some 600 years before Jesus. The Lord told Jeremiah to stand in the Jerusalem temple and speak the following:
“If you will not listen to me, to walk in my law that I have set before you, and to heed the words of my servants the prophets whom I send to you urgently – though you have not heeded – then I will make this house like Shiloh, and I will make this city a curse for all the nations of the earth” (Jeremiah 26:4-6).
What response did this prophecy spark in the Jewish leaders and others? Sorrow? Repentance? Hardly! In fact, here’s what happened:
And when Jeremiah had finished speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to all the people, then the priests and the prophets and all the people laid hold of him, saying, “You shall die!” (Jeremiah 26:8)
There it is, the same pattern we see in the last days of Jesus: Speak judgment on the temple and the leaders will believe that you need to die. In the case of Jeremiah, however, he insisted that he was only passing on God’s own message, so the people spared his life (Jer 26:12-16).
Now jump forward in history more than six centuries, to an incident that occurred about thirty years after the death of Jesus. Curiously enough, this incident involved another man named Jesus, son of Ananus (Hananiah), who came to Jerusalem during a feast an began to cry out “against Jerusalem and the holy house.” According to the Jewish historian Josephus, Jesus’ persistent proclamation of judgment on the temple and city offended “certain of the most eminent among the populace,” which is to say, the leaders of Jerusalem. So, at first they beat Jesus severely. But when this didn’t shut him up, they brought Jesus to the Roman procurator “where he was whipped [flogged] till his bones were laid bare.” When even this didn’t silence Jesus, the procurator dismissed this Jesus as a madman and a nuisance. (The story of this Jesus can be found in Josephus’s Jewish War, 6.5.3.)
In this case of Jesus ben Hananiah, the Jewish leaders seem not to have pressed for his crucifixion. Of course, this Jesus didn’t pose the same threat as Jesus of Nazareth once did, nor did he do anything resembling the cleansing of the temple. Yet, merely by proclaiming God’s judgment on the temple, Jesus son of Ananus earned several beatings, including what must have been an almost fatal Roman flogging. And, like Jesus of Nazareth, the Jewish leaders dealt with him, first on their own and then by handing him over to the Roman governor.
The experiences of Jeremiah and Jesus ben Hananiah, though different in detail and time period, nevertheless illustrate how Jewish leaders were apt to deal with those who spoke against the temple. They were worthy of severe punishment, if not death. And when the Jewish leaders no longer had the authority to execute someone, they would turn him over to the Roman governor. Thus the actions of Caiaphas and his associates in response to the problem of Jesus of Nazareth reflect the same commitments and tendencies of similar leaders in similar positions. This greatly increases the likelihood that the historical scenario I have been proposing with respect to Jesus of Nazareth is, in fact, accurate.
In my next post I’ll sum up what we have learned about “one” Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death.
One Jewish Perspective, Part 6
Summing Up One Jewish Perspective
In the last five posts I’ve been examining “one” Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death. Let me briefly summarize my findings, adding some observations along the way.
1. It’s more accurate to speak of “one” Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death than to speak of “the” Jewish perspective because not all Jews agreed with the viewpoint of those who conspired to have Jesus crucified. Only a tiny percentage of Jews in Jerusalem were actually involved in the effort to persuade Pilate to execute Jesus. Moreover, the New Testament Gospels attest to the widespread popularity of Jesus among his Jewish contemporaries. “A great number” of those in Jerusalem at the time of Jesus’ death were horrified by what had happened to him (Luke 23:27). Thus, if anything, the numerically dominant Jewish perspective would have supported Jesus. But those who held power in Jerusalem we able to do what the masses would not have wanted.
2. Some of the leading Jews in Jerusalem, including Caiaphas, the High Priest, sought to have Jesus crucified. Evidence for this comes not only from all four New Testament Gospels, but also from the Jewish historian Josephus.
3. The Jewish leaders who sought to have Jesus crucified believed that his death was necessary for the following reasons:
a. By stirring up the people, Jesus was threatening the peace and life of the Jewish people, thus increasing the likelihood that Rome would destroy both Jerusalem and the temple. The death of Jesus would be preferable to the destruction of the nation.
b. Jesus “seduced Israel and led them astray from God” (Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 43a). His message and ministry lessened the people’s commitment to living out their Judaism in the way approved of by the Jewish leaders (priests, Pharisees).
c. Jesus interrupted the orderly system of sacrifices in the Jerusalem temple, speaking against the temple and its leaders, thus opposing not only the core of Judaism, but God himself. Jesus’ quotation from Jeremiah 7 (“den of robbers”) combined with other things he had said during his ministry clarified his condemnation of the temple – a blasphemous offense. Moreover, he insisted that God was on his side, thus adding blasphemy to blasphemy.
d. Jesus presented himself as the Messiah, the one anointed by God to bring divine salvation to Israel. But he failed to do what the Messiah was supposed to do, notably, lead a successful revolt against Rome. Instead, Jesus turned his judgment against God’s own temple. Thus Jesus was a false messiah. This fact alone might not have warranted his crucifixion. But, when combined with his other offenses, his false claim to messiahship increased further the chances that his actions would bring devastation upon Judea.
4. The efforts of Jewish leaders to silence Jesus by physical violence were consistent with what other Jewish leaders did in similar situations (vs. the prophet Jeremiah in Jer 26 and vs. Jesus ben Hananiah in Josephus, Jewish War, 6.5.3). This consistency greatly increases the probability that the Gospel accounts accurately portray the role of Jewish leaders. Caiaphas and company did exactly what Jewish leaders in their position thought they had to do when someone insulted or threatened the temple.
Implications for the Current Debate
Given this picture of “one” Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death, I want to draw out two implications.
First, it is historically irresponsible to say, “The Jews killed Christ.” Yes, I’m aware that the Gospel of John uses “the Jews” in a way that seems to lay blame for Jesus’ death upon “the Jews.” But, when read in context, “the Jews” means “some Jewish leaders.” Ultimate and legal blame for Jesus’ death fell upon the shoulders of Pontius Pilate, no matter how he might have tried to wriggle out of it. Moreover, many, and quite probably the vast majority of Jews in the time of Jesus, did not want him killed, and were horrified when it happened. Given the tragic history of Christian anti-Semitism, we Christians must speak carefully and accurately about Jewish involvement in his death. The truth: some influential Jews believed Jesus had to die and sought to convince Pilate to crucify him.
Second, it is historically irresponsible to deny all Jewish involvement in the death of Jesus. Some scholars, no doubt responding to the horrors of anti-Semitism, have applied their critical scalpels to the New Testament records, cutting from them any implication of Jewish complicity in the death of Jesus. In their surgery, however, they bleed historical probability to death. In fact two ancient Jewish sources, Josephus and the Talmud, indicate that some Jews were involved in the death of Jesus and help us to understand why they would have been. Plus, the picture of Caiaphas and his associates in the Gospels makes historical and logical sense. These leaders were protecting that which they believed to be essential, including both the temple and their own civic/religious position. The actions of other leaders in similar situations confirm the conclusion that the New Testament Gospels paint an historical reliable picture of Jewish involvement in the death of Jesus.
Finally, there was another Jewish perspective on the necessity of Jesus’ death, a perspective I haven’t yet mentioned. It was the most important Jewish perspective of all, that of Jesus himself. To the question of why Jesus believed he had to die I’ll turn in my next post in this series.
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posted June 9, 2007 at 6:48 am
Hello,
The substance of this particular post is very paltry indeed. You are misrepresenting Hitchens’s statement, (paraphrase) “not until gentle Jesus, meek and mild, do we come across the idea of hell.” The context in which Hitchens always states this is in comparing the old testament with the new. He’s not saying that hell is not mentioned by anyone else in the new testament, but rather, that in the context of the bible, it’s not until Jesus (i.e., the new testament) that we are inflicted with the idea of eternal punishment. Presumably, the other authors who mention hell in the new testament are mentioning it after Jesus did, so where’s the error?
You had me going with the whole AD 4 business in your previous post, but after researching it, it wasn’t necessarily frivolous of Hitchens (perhaps a mistake on his part, or perhaps not). But, if you’re claiming to have found over a dozen errors, please make sure that they are errors (statements that can be verified or falsified) with at least a hint of glare to them, and not just things with which you disagree.
Also, at the top of your posts you state that you have found 15 errors in god is not Great, but then, later in the post you say things such as: This isn’t really an error but… I’m being nitpicky about this error but I don’t count it as a mistake…
If it’s an error, count it; if it’s a mistake, count it; if it’s not conclusively either, don’t. For the most part, what you give here are ostensible errors.
Sincerely,
Chris
posted June 9, 2007 at 8:46 am
Is it unchristian of me to enjoy watching you make mincemeat of Christopher H?
posted June 9, 2007 at 11:05 am
I’ve also been appalled at the very poor grasp of basic facts among this new crop of atheists.
Hitchen’s point about there being no hell before Christ is intended to prove that Christianity made the world a darker, meaner place.
But in fact, prior to Christianity, most religions (greek, roman) relegated EVERYONE to an underworld, which was invariably a dark and gloomy place, where everyone just sort of immersed themselves in the sorrow of being dead. They weren’t exactly punished, but no doubt most of them were nearly bored to death in such a place.
Christianity, on the other hand, said that good people went to heaven, and bad people went to hell. Isn’t that a better, more just and humane view of things than just letting everyone go down to the same place, no matter what you do?
Surely the Christian concept of death would fit more nicely with Hitchens’ rather sharp view of justice, where he wants bad people like Hitler and Pinochet to suffer, and good people like Jefferson and Thomas Paine to be rewarded.
Or does he like the idea of Jefferson being forced to spend all eternity sitting next to Hitler, in a dark dank underworld, doing nothing much?
I don’t think a serious person can argue that the Christian view of things was not an improvement over the older view.
The only thing an atheist can say is that neither of these places (heaven or hell) exists, so you just can’t talk about it. But then they want to talk about it, to claim the practical effect of Christianity is to make us all poorer beings. But invariably, they must discuss only one aspect of the situation, and quickly change the subject before anyone can fully engage them with the facts.
It’s a pretty sorry tactic for a “man of reason” to use, isn’t it?
posted June 9, 2007 at 11:24 am
Pastor Roberts
Thanks for the great work. Thanks for the interesting study.
My point concerns some of the meanings translated from original texts. In the Old and New Testaments a couple of words are used that are now translated as hell. One of these words is “Sheol,” which I think may mean “in the ground” or something like that. The question is whether an in context meaning of the word sheole is merely buried or is in fact hell.
posted June 9, 2007 at 11:27 am
I found the interview curious in that Hitchens was completely focused on his point of view and his work to get to it. Roberts on the other hand, went beyond his book into broader discussion about what this means for (all) of us.
A question I wished HH would have asked of Hitchens would be ‘ to what benefit is your work? that is, IF you sucessfully prove the athiest position, what benefit have you bestowed upon the world ? The next logical step in his argument is that everything is relative. Moral Relativism is what is undermining the entire world today. One could extent Hitchens logic and say that once his position is “proved” then the basic rule of law and tenants of society are ill founded since they are based upon Judeo-Chistian teachings. Therefore we de-volve to a paganistic society…one much like Moses found coming off Mt Sinai !!
Point is – someone needs to put him on the spot and say (hypothetically) OK, I believe your premise. Now what ? My bet is that he wont have a clue beyond every man for themselves.
posted June 9, 2007 at 11:39 am
Chris,
You say in your comment that Hell wasn’t mentioned until the time of Christ. Pastor Roberts clearly points to at least one reference in the old testament.
Clark,
My reading of Christianity (and I am a Christian) is that it’s not a matter of good going to heaven and bad going to hell. It’s a matter of do you believe in Jesus Christ as your savior, and have you repented of your sins. The bible clearly says that “works” will not get you to heaven.
Jim C
posted June 9, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Clark says:
Christianity, on the other hand, said that good people went to heaven, and bad people went to hell. Isn’t that a better, more just and humane view of things than just letting everyone go down to the same place, no matter what you do?
No, Christianity says that believers go to Heaven and unbelievers go to Hell. For you to equate belief with good and unbelief with bad just shows how morally corrupt the whole idea of Christian redemption is. Good and bad have no place in Christian theology, if you really want to get down to brass tacks. If Jefferson will be sharing Hell with Hitler in your cosmology, then you’ll be sharing Heaven with Jeffrey Dahmer.
posted June 9, 2007 at 12:37 pm
As I’ve listened to Hitchens’ interviews on radio and TV I’m struck not so much with his clever debate as much as the vile, hateful “spirit” that oozes from his mouth. His manner is arrogant and pompous. One of the comments rightly suggests he is an imposter for a “man of reason” who changes the subject QUICKLY when pressed to engage on the facts. This aside, Hitchens seems to have a pretty clear concept of “good” vs. “evil” and cleary believes all things “Christian” are evil. How did he come by his standard? A man of reason would logically conclude there is no evil unless defined by the good. From whence cometh the good, Mr. Hichens? If there is no absolute truth in the world, you have no basis for argument. It appears you have bought the pernicious lie and “reasonably” defend it… to what end? You are proof there really exists puffed up, pontifical hooey.
posted June 9, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Robert: I think you misunderstood me. I said that Hitler and Jefferson would be sharing the same place under a paganistic, pre-Christian view, and that Hitchens would probably find such a result repugnant to his conscience, which he claims as his ultimate guide. Therefore his attempt to point to Christianity as the thing that degrades humanity is probably illogical, even in his own worldview.
I wasn’t intending to make a theological point, and we could discuss faith versus works all day. (Sorry, I’m a Catholic. I guess you could tell)
My real point was that it is better to have people go to heaven (a reward) or hell ( a sanction) no matter what the basis, rather than everyone ending up in a dark cold underworld – Which Hitchens seems to believe was a better belief for humanity than Christ’s supposed introduction of hell.
My aim was to point out that even using Hitchens’ purely secular bases of argument, and without introducing religion, his ideas fail – under his own ground rules.
As is usual with these neo-atheists, they discuss the negative (hell) and fail to mention that the corresponding postive (heaven) that is an integral part of a whole. Only by distorting and telling half-truths can they make their points.
All of which is a rather cheap and shoddy way to win an argument. But that drive-by style of argument (sprinkled with a liberal dose of insults) is the only thing they have, since much of what they say doesn’t stand up under rigorous analysis.
posted June 9, 2007 at 1:12 pm
Be prepared Pastor to have many kooks with lots of time on their hands, sometimes too much, and that they will post rubbish here without really looking at your arguments.
Post #1 is a case in point — he nit picks over phrases, but glosses over the fact that Hitchens did indeed make mistakes. Honest mistakes? Probably, but I would argue that people who are angry seldom check their facts carefully — their only interest is in expressing their emotions, not presenting completely sound arguments.
Good work Pastor Roberts, and God bless you
posted June 9, 2007 at 1:22 pm
Thank you Pastor Roberts for your trenchant response to C. Hitchens.
I think it is essential to address these errors for the simple reason that he has such a big megaphone. Marginal christians without a strong gift of faith in Jesus Christ as the Risen Lord are most susceptible to his scurrilous rants. Hopefully these same will read and consider your responses.
posted June 9, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Robert (7)
It’s always nice to see you post. I have a sad feeling that our very interesting debate from a WAAAAAY long time ago (what… two days ago?) is now too old to carry on. So, in the spirit of this discussion let me just say it’s very refreshing to see you in a very non-judgemental way, refuting arguments and not people. Positions are irrelevant, people – always relevant. So thanks for sticking to issues.
One clarification though, I think you and Clark are either talking past each other, or grossly oversimplifying Christian doctrine. It’s not hard to do, considering how long we have been working on it, but surely you must admit that for Christians a “believer” is distinguished from a “non-believer” not simply by what club he’s in (Christian vs. everyone else), but by the way he responds to the work of God on earth throughout all time.
As a former Catholic (I am Anglican, so we have a very similar canon of heavyweights) you must know that both the NT book of Roman’s (the concept that people who HAVEN’T heard the gospel will be judged by their response to the revelation they HAVE), St. Augustine (Plato is in heaven?), and C.S. Lewis (the Last Battle where the bad guys get accepted by Aslan) are all in agreement that Christianity isn’t a club; and therefore does not fit your description of it having an immoral understanding of redemption)… And the whole Hitler, Dahmer, Jefferson issue is quite a red herring I’d warrant.
CM
posted June 9, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Friends, thanks for some good points, questions, etc. Sorry I can’t respond to each. The Hebrew notion of Sheol is a place (sort of) where people go after death. But in the Old Testament it’s not equivalent to Hell (a place of punishment). Sometimes the language of Sheol seems to be a poetic way of talking about death.
posted June 9, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Christof,
Thanks for the compliment. Yes, I’m aiming at the ideas, and not the people. This gets back to my idea that morals aren’t derived from theologies or philosophies. The theist challenge to the atheist that without a belief in judgment and afterlife he has no reason to act good in life can be redirected right back at the Christian, for if salvation is granted to people as a gift, wholly unearned, and that all that is necessary is faith, then neither does a Christian have any need to be good. That Christians do act good just shows that they are not doing so as a logical deduction from their theology.
The Anglican/Catholic view of salvation is different from the evangelical or reformed view, but faith, from what I can tell, is still a necessary, if not sufficient, requirement. I haven’t studied the latest word from Pope Benedict, so I don’t know where Catholic doctrine is now, whether he took the Church back to the stance of Vatican I, which definitely stated that salvation is through the Church alone. My parents grew up in the Vatican I church, and there was no nuance around the position that no non-Catholics would be finding their way to Heaven.
I’ve tried to get a discussion going on the Great God Debate over at my blog, the Daily Duck. You’re welcome to join in.
posted June 9, 2007 at 2:55 pm
7. Robert Duquette: You have put a lot of thought into this and are very eloquent. I am hesitant to address anyone specifically, lest you think I am “calling you out,” because there is no “challenge” to be issued. Since this is not mathematics, there is really no way to have a dispositive resolution on these issues, but perhaps I can carry the conversation along and bring another perspective to things.
From my human perspective, things get even murkier on the issue of Heaven that you mention, since Jesus says that there will be many who say to Him, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied, cast out devils and done many wonderful works in Your name? to whom He will say, Depart, I never knew you. (Matt 7:22-23)
This is all part and parcel of the problem Hitchens has with Faith. Part of the problem is the way “belief” is now used. People “believe” in the Easter Bunny, or that Tinkerbelle will get well if you clap your hands. Clearly, Jesus is indicating that a “believer” will be one whom He recognizes as having a two-way relationship with Him. And if there is a God, God exists whether folks are clapping for Him or not. If He does not, all the clapping there is will not help. So “belief” is a flawed word, but it gets used, and to that extent, we are stuck with it.
Another part of this problem is your notion that “Good and bad have no place in Christian theology.” I would urge that they do, and the verdict is that we are ALL “bad.” It is the claiming by faith of the sacrifice of Jesus’ life to redeem me that grants me to be looked upon by God the Father as He looks upon Jesus. Both Testaments are clear that there is not one of us who are “good,” but all have sinned and fallen short. Heaven will be populated exclusively by people who did not “deserve” to be there, but are there by Faith. It is not a matter of the Scales of Anubis— it is absolute purity or a bar to entrance. And nobody short of Jesus was ever absolutely pure, and it is His purity that we are allowed to participate in via Faith.
But I think the bigger part of the problem Hitchens has is the very nature of “Faith.” Let me draw a very imperfect parallel to illustrate. One can observe the little fish that swim into sharks’ mouths and eat the little bits of meat and such stuck in the shark’s teeth and postulate, using your logical facilities, that over billions and billions of years, the little fish and the shark developed this symbiotic relationship. Or you can postulate, using your logical facilities, that sharks eat little fish all the time like popcorn, and that for such a symbiotic development to occur, it had to happen all at once, because the pool of still-trusting small fish would rapidly be depleted as they got chomped repeatedly, and that would argue for the so-called “Intelligent Design” model of things. I don’t want to debate that issue, but here is the point: no matter which way you may decide, you cannot “prove” it by scientific replication in a lab. You look at the evidence, use your logical facilities, and embrace a theory… by Faith. It cannot be “proven” in either direction. Sartre and Nietszche are excercising Faith that there is no God by this process as surely as Matthew and Luke are excercising Faith that there is. I have known folks who are aggressive toward Faith to think that Faith entails throwing your brains out the window and believing idiocy. Folks like C.S. Lewis demonstrate that you can have tremendous mental firepower and be a Christian. Hitchens is a very, very formidable intellect in his own right, and while I would disagree in varying measure with much of what he has said, I would not be so foolish as to consider him a moron for not having Faith in what I have Faith in. Frankly, he strikes me as having been deeply hurt somewhere along the way, and the emotion he most evokes is sympathy, and secondarily, admiration of his many gifts as a speaker and even as a thinker. But he is not an idiot for believing as he does.
So my overarching point is that everyone goes through their best mental processes and has Faith in a worldview that has no possibility of being proven scientifically. You can be either a genius or a moron and come to what will one day objectively be proven to be “right,” ie, we are all eaten by worms and that is that, or we stand before God. Until it actually happens one way or the other, you act in Faith on your chosen outcome. There is no way to “know” either way, so Hitchens has Faith in non-Faith, if you will. He may be right, or he may be wrong, but it is still “Faith” at this point. That is not a palatable thought to many, but as I have thought it out, it seems to be the way it works out.
Please take my comments as part of the ongoing conversation here, not some sort of rebuttal to the thoughts you have expressed. The totality of Christian Faith is vast and often nuanced. A satisfactory explanation of various aspects of it will be likewise not subject to fast answers (my attempt above being ample proof!) Dr. Roberts does yeoman work on this blog every day in that direction.
posted June 9, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Me thinks Mr. Hitchens is joining the blog with post #1 under the name Chris.
posted June 9, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Evan says:
Another part of this problem is your notion that “Good and bad have no place in Christian theology.” I would urge that they do, and the verdict is that we are ALL “bad.”
Evan, thanks for your response. But you prove my point in a backdoor way. It is like any other situation where some quality is said to belong to everything. As with art, if anything and everything can be art, if a urinal or a blank canvas or a pile of feces can be art, then nothing is art. The term distinguishes nothing.
Your point demonstrates that Christianity rests on an extreme case of moral equivalence. When a white lie makes a person as guilty as murder does, then there really is no good and bad to apply to human affairs. But human affairs needs judgments of good and bad, we can’t form societies without it. It is precisely because men are imperfect that some scale of good and bad is needed to give moral direction.
The morality that you ascribe to God, that only perfection is good, anything short is bad, would be useless in human affairs. We can’t live with such a morality. Morality is a human construct, something that human beings developed out of necessity.
posted June 9, 2007 at 5:54 pm
I am surprised that Pastor Mark D Roberts states that Psalm 19:7 has any hint of hell in it. To say that the Jewish word “sheol” means hell is an error foisted on the Bible by those scholars who want the issue of hell front and center, by suggesting its presence in the Old Testament. The word sheol translated hell in the passage Pastor Roberts cites simply means grave. There is no hint of hell anywhere in the passage. There is no hint of hell anywhere in the Old Testament.
posted June 9, 2007 at 6:22 pm
17. Robert, you raise a good point. I think the answer lies in the notion of “Good and Evil” as regards “entrance into Heaven,” and “Good and Evil” as they touch on human conduct. You have mentioned both in regard to this post, but your analysis only fits on the latter as I see it.
The summation of my point was that the best of human conduct ultimately will deviate from perfection, and perfection is the standard of entry into Heaven. Jesus is clear that no human effort will be successful; it is thus only through Faith in Him that you find perfection, and it is freely available.
Here is where I think your analogy of Art does not work in the first context. I conceive of the analogy as Infection.
Heaven is a pure, sterile environment, and any disease is not allowed.(Like situations where folks have received bone marrow transplants and the like and must be in a sterile environment for a while.) If you have any infection going on, you cannot enter. This is true whether it is a mild cold or TB, or if you have a blob of raw medical waste on you, you cannot enter. It is not “moral equivalence.” The standard of entry is perfection, and you either qualify or you don’t.
Where your analogy is pertinent is in the context of a remark you made to someone else. “…if salvation is granted to people as a gift, wholly unearned, and that all that is necessary is faith, then neither does a Christian have any reason to be good.” Here, “Good and Evil” do come into play in degree, and a blank canvas, urinal, etc take on relevance, because as I mentioned prior, Salvation is a relationship, not a punchcard. I seriously doubt you have a relationship with God if the notion is, ‘I have ‘faith,’ therefore I am ‘saved,’ so therefore I can commit any act of evil I desire.’ In the first instance is my citing of Jesus disowning some people who claimed to do great things in His name. In the second instance, there are many places in which Jesus measures your relationship to Him with obedience to his orders, such as John 14:15. It is disingenuous on an unimaginable scale to think that one can claim the mercy of God, achieved by the awful death of His Son, and then throw it back in His face and embark on a campaign of evil that would make Hitler, Stalin and Mao blush while wagging your Salvation Punchcard at Him. If you are not grateful, and thus obedient to your best efforts, I seriously doubt that “faith” has entered the picture. As a semantic exercise, it has some merit, but it is silly.
Faith in God is ultimately a relationship. It is ultimately based on love. I have heard some folks go through a semantic excercise in which it ends up “legal” to marry one’s own daughter, but the whole notion is likewise ludicrous based on the relationship of love.
If one claims to love Jesus, then one will attempt to follow His instructions. That is the Christian incentive to “be good.” Paul addressed the notion of “anything goes” when he wrote that “letting sin abound so that grace could abound all the more” is not to be done. God HAS given instructions as to what is Good or Evil precisely IN the context of human interaction, precisely for the reasons you cite. The rules are not arbitrary. Should you try to found a society based on doing the OPPOSITE of the Ten Commandments, for example, you have utter chaos.
God has laid out the rules of Good and Evil in our conduct in society. For entrance into Heaven, God demands perfection, and has provided it for any that desire it. If I choose not to like it and refuse it, that is another matter. At least that is the way that I see it.
posted June 9, 2007 at 6:47 pm
When Jesus asks us to be perfect, he does not mean perfection as in sinlessness. He means perfection in love, as in loving our neighbors as ourselves, no matter who they are. Many mistake Biblical perfection as sinlessness which we cannot attain. If we cannot attain perfection, why would Jesus command it? The cop out is to say since we cannot be perfect, Jesus must mean that we must accept His own perfection.
How do you achieve the perfection of Jesus? By simply believing that you are perfect? No way! The perfection of Jesus cannot be tranferred to anyone. The perfection of Jesus is the perfection of one who never sinned. That is not for us humans. The perfection we have as human beings is the perfection we attain through repentance for our sins, and choosing to do good works by loving our neighbors as ourselves. The two are not the same thing.
When Jesus tells us to be perfect, he simply says we must not discriminate in love, because God doesn’t. And that is why God is perfect.
Mat 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.’
Mat 5:44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you,
Mat 5:45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?
Mat 5:48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
This is faith being expressed through works, because faith without works is DEAD!
posted June 9, 2007 at 7:48 pm
To the Layman… you have argued a point which does not stand the test of scripture. I’ll simply leave one portion of it to counter what you have said:
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ just as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world that we would be holy and blameless before him in love…” Ephesians 1:3-4
Moral and spiritual perfection is the inheritance and portion of everyone who trusts in Christ. For us to dwell with him and for him to dwell in us, this must be so if he is in fact a holy God.
posted June 9, 2007 at 8:16 pm
Susan,
The first post is mine, and I’m definitely not Christopher Hitchens. Also, he would most likely sign off as Christopher instead of Chris.
~Chris
posted June 9, 2007 at 8:19 pm
Arukiyomi: To the Layman…you have argued a point which does not stand the test of scripture.
Which point are you referring to? The Bible is very clear on the teaching of Jesus concerning salvation and the Christian life, and it cannot be confused in any way.
Jesus makes this clear, “If you CONTINUE in my teaching, then you truly are my disciple.” John 8:31
There are some Christians who hope to inherit the righteousness of Christ for their salvation, and they hang their hope on the so-called “imputed righteousness,” i.e., the righteousness of Christ being “imputed” to them. In other words, no need for them to do right. Just believe in the imputation!
It is sometimes easy to misunderstand what Paul is talking about and to mistake his meaning about certain phrases, but the Bible is very consistent in the teaching concerning salvation.
Pastor Mark D Roberts himself made a mistake when he claimed that Psalms 9:17 referred to hell. There is simply no teaching about hell in the Jewish Old Testament scriptures, not a single line or word.
Jesus has already done his own work of salvation by dying on the cross to reconcile us back to God. His righteous is the righteousness of one who lived a sinless life. That is what qualified him to earn us our salvation and reconcile the world back to God. Human beings don’t need the righteousness of sinlessness. We all need the righteousness that come through repentance for our sins. The Bible is crystal clear about this.
Jesus is not going to live a righteous life for us. That is our part to do, otherwise we will have to blame Him in the end for our failure to attain Salvation.
Paul understood this perfectly when he said:
1Co 9:27 But I keep my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Paul understood perfectly that he had work to do to endure till the end.
posted June 9, 2007 at 8:38 pm
@ Layman: While what you have said may have valid points, you have not even acknowledged having read what I’ve written.
I’m sorry I didn’t reference which specific point you were referring to. It was this: you wrote that Jesus does not mean perfection as in sinlessness. Could you reconcile your point with the scripture reference I’ve quoted which refers to the purpose of God in reconciling us to himself as being our blamelessness and holiness i.e. sinlessness.
posted June 9, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Arikuyomi,
Read the passage Mathew 5: 43-48. It ends with the definition of perfection, according to Jesus, not me. It gives the context, then says, “therefore be perfect, just as your father in heaven is perfect.”
It is logical to say that if you cannot inherit sin, you cannot inherit righteousness. The Old Testament teaching of visiting the sins of the father upon the children to the 3rd and 4th generation (2nd commandment) is not a New Testament teaching.
Blamelessness and holiness do not mean sinlessness. It simply means repentance for our sins, the same way Paul repented. Afterall Paul kept saying he was the worst of sinners, but he had hope for salvation because he repented for his sins. This is what make a sinner blameless and holy; forgiveness from God for your sins.
There is no difficulty in understanding this concept. God doesn’t look upon the sinner as if he never sinned, instead God looks upon the sinner as one who has sinned and repented, and forgives him.
posted June 9, 2007 at 9:02 pm
While reading this blog I was struck by the irony of Mr Hitchens given name – odd that he never changed it to something other than “Christ-bearer”!
posted June 9, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Sir,
It is a little known but interesting fact that in the case of Sir Leigh Teabing’s name, “gh” is pronounced “f” as in “enough” and the “n” is is silent; his name is pronounced “Sir Leaf Teabag”.
Cordially,
Neil Ferguson
posted June 10, 2007 at 12:05 am
Evan – thank you for your posts; you’ve saved me much time.
There are two Hebrew words commonly translated as “Hell” (especially in the KJV, which critics love for its many inaccuracies). “Sheol” means, “the grave” or, “the place of the dead.”
“Gehenna” refers to the Valley of Hinnom, aka the Jerusalem Municipal Dump, which was filled with noxious odors and the smoldering flames and choking smoke of rotting garbage in spontaneous combustion.
Jewish thought did not exclude the idea of an afterlife; after all, the Pharisees believed in a general resurrection. Jesus taught a parable about the poor man after he died resting in the bosom of Abraham while the rich man cried out for a drop of water. This indicates that concept of reward and punishment existed in contemporary Jewish culture.
posted June 10, 2007 at 12:30 am
Okay layman… I’m not going to post any more. Again, you’ve ignored the scripture I raised in comparison to the one you originally posted. ATB.
posted June 10, 2007 at 12:56 am
I thought the most telling moment of the “Great God Debate” was when Mr.Hitchins confessed that he was a secular humanist. Sadly, I suppose that means the value of human life is determined by consensus. Life is some chemical formula…that’s all. Physics in your face. But, surely Mr. Hitchins understands Love and Commitment. I noticed that he mentioned that he has a daughter. Surely he feels a transcendent care for her. Where do all these feelings come from if not from a spirit? You cannot begin to say “I love you” using mathematics. No, religion does not poison everything. Religion will always be our last great hope that Life does have meaning. Hope, not scientific fact.
posted June 10, 2007 at 1:06 am
Dr. Roberts,
I enjoyed the debate Wednesday, and while your willingness to concede a few points wasn’t enough to win against Christopher Hitchens, it shows that your corrections of his mistakes and exaggerations aren’t purely partisan. I’m an atheist who doesn’t share Hitchens’ blanket antipathy to religion, and as a member of the demographic who his book (which I haven’t read) is taken to represent, I’m disappointed that he’s made at least one mistake (about Q) that I myself could have corrected six months after getting a B in a freshman-level course on the Christian scriptures.
Concerning Hell, I find the common doctrine (which pictures a place of endless, conscious misery for the unsaved) completely repugnant and unjust, and I think any morally decent person has to feel the same way to some extent — it might not be very biblical for God to merely wipe the unsaved out of existence, but at least it wouldn’t be immoral of him to do so. I’d be interested to read your future post on Hell, even if you only echo Lewis’s views, and especially if you can reconcile the moral perfection of God and the horror of Hell without the tired cop-out that both are true and we just aren’t wise enough to understand how that could be the case. “It’s not a contradiction, it’s a paradox” has never been a satisfactory answer to me, if it is an answer at all.
Thanks for your posts. I hope your fellow Christians, and I, can learn from your kind approach to just criticism.
Greg
posted June 10, 2007 at 9:09 am
It seems to me much of this debate rotates around how you conceive of “God”. If you think, as I do, that this concept has evolved over time as the average person’s ability to think more abstractly has developed, then a lot of contradictions disappear. Starting as the group projection of a stern leader who kept his believers in line the better to create solidarity, it progressed, as society progressed to wiser, more merciful concepts which emphasized the inevitable reciprocity of human interaction, the punishment of evil and principles and reasons to combat destructive practices such as incest, hatred and so on.
With the confluence of many academic disciplines today, a new vision is developing – the idea of an over-arching set of principles that drives the whole known universe and, retrospectively, makes sense of our individual lives even if this rule set doesn’t necessarily offer much immediate comfort. In this view, heaven becomes the peace of mind one gains from “doing the right thing” and hell is the frustration,loneliness, anguish and self-righteousness of alienating those who might have loved you.
But as with any topic,how you conceive of “God” makes quite a difference to how you debate. If you think as some seem to, that there is a real entity who sits in judgment and runs the universe and caused the Bible to be written and so on, then the ordinary standards of proof, willy-nilly, come into play. This entity must, as a powerful ruler, be consistent since to think otherwise casts his omnipotence into question. So, the inconsistencies become important and we get debates about whether Hitchens’ arguments are valid if he makes a few statements that experts don’t support.
If you think there is no ruler but, instead, we are all contributing to an understanding of the ever-more inclusive rules that drive everything, then you argue as Hitchens does that the current set of rules leaves a lot to be desired. And you insist that the literalists confront the consequences of their stance.
But, whatever the state of your thinking and whatever God is or isn’t, for sure, striving to make the world a better place is part of the rule set.
posted June 10, 2007 at 1:47 pm
32. Saxon Harding: I always appreciate a discussion that focuses on the merits and avoids stridency, and your entry methodically lays out how you see things to discuss in that fashion. Well done.
As I noted before, this is not mathematics, so there is no objective way to “prove” anything as such, so please do not think I am doing anything more than offering my own thoughts in the same manner as you have. (I often make this disclaimer since prose is a risky way to communicate–very often fraught with misunderstanding.) So this is how I see it:
The Christian views Good and Evil as unchanging, because God defines Good, and He does not change.
Societies, in contrast, seem to change as time rolls along. The Christian points to God as the standard and argues that conformity to God’s standard should be the norm. The standard never changes. It is like the North Star— you can navigate relative to the fixed point, because the point does not move.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but when there has been an issue that Christians have disagreed over, the ultimate consensus came because the comprehension and understanding of what God has said improved, not because God has announced a change in the moral scheme of things.
Any discussion of this ends up being voluminous because particulars get raised and get addressed. I tend to be verbose as it is, but let me try to give an example to illustrate the concept. The Christian notion is that the life of each individual has worth because Jesus died for them. Jesus makes abundantly clear that He seeks every individual; indeed, in the parable of the Good Shepherd, the Good Shepherd leaves to flock to search high and low for the one missing sheep, whom He retrieves. His death on the cross is a personal substitution.
The notion of each individual being important works its way into our ideas of jurisprudence via Due Process and the Bill of Rights.
But here is my point. The Christian points to the unchanging declarations of God as the basis for how to act. There have been disagreements (some bad faith, as I see it) over what therefore results, but there is no question as to what reference point is being used. Without an eternal fixed reference point, my study of the matter leads me to conclude you wind up with Nietzsche’s Will to Power: If you have the power, you make the rules, there is no Right or Wrong, only what those with power declare it to be. There is no “universal” Good or Evil to refer to, only each person’s own interpretation, which is no better or worse than the next person’s, so the powerful dictate the standard.
Christians can explore what the standard set by God might mean, but there is agreement as to the standard being discussed. Without that eternal fixed point of reference, I find it logically difficult to come up with any universal standards that are not “arbitrary,” since they are derived from finite humans, and “who is to say YOUR standard is any more legitimate than MY standard” as the argument goes.
This is not a dispositive argument; I merely seek to illustrate the problem. If the eternal, unchanging Creator sets the standard, it has some logical basis to claim primacy that a human standard would not. That does not “prove” anything as such, but that is where I as a Christian come from looking at this issue. And I hope I laid it out as thoughtfully as you laid out your perspective.
posted June 10, 2007 at 1:58 pm
Evan says:
Christians can explore what the standard set by God might mean, but there is agreement as to the standard being discussed. Without that eternal fixed point of reference, I find it logically difficult to come up with any universal standards that are not “arbitrary,” since they are derived from finite humans, and “who is to say YOUR standard is any more legitimate than MY standard” as the argument goes.
But the fixed standard hasn’t resolved the dilemma of your standard/my standard, because as you point out you still have to figure out what the standard says. You can’t use the North Star as a guide if you can’t locate the right star. Saying “God is the standard” is so general that it is practically useless. History bears this out. “My standard” is no different than “My interpretation of God’s standard”.
posted June 10, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Arukiymi, I apologize if I have not responded to your scripture quote to your satisfaction. I perceive the reason is probably that I am speculating on what you want me to respond to. I thought I answered by my response to blamelessness and holiness. Maybe you are referring to the issue of being “chosen before the foundation of the world.”
If by being “chosen before the foundation of the world” you mean that some people are chosen for salvation and others for destruction even before they are created, I see that as a doctrine that is unsupportable by any Biblical text or context. It is a suggestion that people are condemned even before they are created, before they have committed any sin. I find that to be unbiblical and I try never to spend time debating it.
Perhaps Saxon Harding presents the most logical and rational understanding of God that I have read on these posts. God does change, as our perceptions of Him change, and our understanding of Him improves. He changes not because He has really changed, but because we learn to discard teachings about God that become too ridiculous to sustain in light of clearer understanding.
And so the earth is no longer 6,000 years old and Blacks no longer have the mark of Cain and other ridiculous beliefs that were once considered as absolute truths. God changes because knowledge relegates these kinds of beliefs to the fringe, and therefore we are no longer bombarded on a daily basis with these errors.
That is why the Bible is divided into an Old Testament and a New Testament. It is really a pretext for suggesting that there is an old and new understanding. Those who wrote the books of the Bible never knew that what they wrote would be separated into old or new. Truth is never old or new. Truth is truth. The world has always been round even if at some time some thought it was flat, and found scripture to support it.
And stridency is in the eye of the beholder. The most strident of statements is to believe that my knowledge of God is the only or absolute truth. It leads us not only to devalue the experience of others but to distort even the knowledge we already have. So the statement of Jesus that “I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father except through me” becomes easily interpreted as “my religion is the only way,” or “my denomination is the only way” or “my doctrine is the only way.” The latter do not derive from the former.
After listening to the debate between Hitchens and Pastor Mark D Roberts, I came away with the feeling that Hitchens defended his positions quite well. Perhaps if Hitchens had been made to understand God from Saxon Harding’s perspective, he probably would have come to the conclusion that God is indeed great.
posted June 11, 2007 at 3:21 am
If Mr. Hitchens were able to prove that the concepts of hell were invented by Jesus it would prove not disprove the divinity of Christ. After all, it was Jesus that brought us a new and unexpected path from original sin. Unbounded free will gives us the choice to take that path or the path to hell. Repugnant yes; unfair no. It’s our choice, not God’s. God does not send us to hell, we walk there of our own volition. Would we demand that free will be rescinded?
The Bible says we were created in the image of God. The Bible gives us an Example to follow. The Bible gives us rules to follow. Either the Bible is right or it’s wrong.
Studying the commentary of others, be they Sartre, Nietszche, Pastor Roberts or Mr. Hitchens (or each other) can be interesting and helpful. Still, you either see God as He is revealed in the Bible, or you make up a new god for yourself. Mr. Hitchens sees the God of the Bible, and shakes his fist at Him. What choice will you make?
posted June 14, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Dr. R.,
your not-picking on these topics is telling, you can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s like you are taking the scattershpot approach and hopin g the greater themes get lost … but they don’t.
That Q is not the source of all of the gospels is not as important as that they are mostly derivative and liley corrupted.
That reminds on of your defense of non-literate history telling and how you claim these oral historians were expert at staying consistant … you contradict yourself here, since there was writing at that time, there are plently of texts from that time and even handwritten texts change over time as all biblical scholars know. The contradiction is here you use written tests top defend, but were there are gaos you use the amazing ( and false ) accuracy of oral tradition to back you up.
Of course you assume that all this passing down of the stories was meant to be taken as fact and not myth … how do you know this crucial fact, perhaps the original story tellers felt they were passing on a great mythic tale that contained good life lessons.
and why so hung up on HELL, Hitchens stands correct but you bring up this one point as two errors.
Ken
posted July 13, 2009 at 11:39 pm
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