Dave, regarding the whining from Prop 8 supporters about disclosure laws, you should read the opinion by the judge who utterly rejected their lawsuit about that: http://www.thesweetmelissa.com/files/prop-8-privacy-ruling.pdf
He makes a very convincing case for why disclosure laws should not be struck down and no exception should be granted. To summarize:
(1) Almost all the worst reports of abuse were from people whose names were printed in the newspaper or “outed” themselves in other ways totally unrelated to the disclosure laws (ex: bumper sticker).
(2) All but a tiny number of incidents were either (a) illegal but rampant in every single election (stealing yard signs), or (b) completely protected and valid free speech in and of themselves. Boycotting businesses with whom you disagree is a time-honored and constitutionally-protected form of speech. You will recall that the Yes-On-8 campaign also threatened donors to No-On-8 during the campaign (see http://www.scribd.com/doc/7505187/Prop-8-Threat-Letter, note that one of the signatories on that letter is even a member of the church).

you strip others of their civil rights, and then you go whining to the press that YOU are the vicitms? gimme a break.

What is wrong with boycotts of those who supported Prop 8? That is part of the democratic process and a fair act of expressing disgust in Prop 8 supporters.
Violence against anyone solves nothing and only causes a step backwards in justice & equality for all. It’s also wrong to try to control someone else’s life (when it has no affect on you one way or another) simply because your opinion differs.
Why should a group continue to support those people who so vehemently oppose them? I think the media understands that Prop 8 opponents rightfully boycott.

Transparency is one of democracy’s greatest attributes and has never been recognized by any churches (don’t they claim receiving messages from an unknown and unseen God?, has anyone seen the tablets received by Moses?). We should apologize for the yes on 8 who’ve been beheaded like we should also apologize to the family of the pro abortion who was murdered, aren’t the yes on 8 and anti abortion the one and same crowd. It seems the Christians after having seen the light want it switched off. As a hetero I’m proud the way the Gay community stood up and my heart goes to them.

Ask Salman Rushdie about having the right to speak his mind. The gay rights people have taken the path of the Islamic fundamentalist. I opposed Prop 8 but the way the gay rights people have conducted themselves afterward does not generate any sympathy. If the gay community is opposed to free speech and are against freedom to vote that says a lot more about them than it does about those who voted for prop 8. Those who voted for it may be bigoted but what are the people that are willing to deny anyone that does not agree with them the right to conduct their business without being assaulted or harassed. It is one thing to with hold your business but to harass and scare away customers form businesses because of the owners speech is far worse than a bigot who casts a vote and allows others to vote the way whey want without threat.
I don’t have a problem with disclosure or but the resulting violence only gave away all of our civil rights. Will people feel free to vote they way they feel next time? This is the same tactic the KKK used against blacks and now we have gay activists doing it.

Jack — “violence” — are you kidding me? It is the christian Extremist that are the problem. Be it mormon, catholic or islam.
Can’t we just give Gay folks civil marriage and move on? The mormons claimed to support such efforts, but were clearly lying to shift the focus from their deeds.
Quit messing with gay people and I’m sure they will leave others alone. But don’t go kicking people and expect that they will do nothing.
BTW — What happens NOW is nothing if you look 5 years down the road. While things can always get worse, it takes work to make things better.
Chrissy

Look, whether you agree with their feelings or not, the fact is that the Mormons who voted for Prop 8 felt threatened. Yes threatened.
They felt like THEIR freedom was being attacked by the gay community. They felt like the gay community was FORCING them to embrace homosexuality. Not just live-and-let-live tolerance, but a liberal attempt to get government enforcement for approval of the gay lifestyle. They saw gay marriage as an attempt by gays to win government enforcement of their lifestyle on other people. They felt their children where going to be bombarded with pro-gay propaganda in schools, they felt like they were going to be forced by gay lawsuits to perform gay marriages in their places of worship. And generally, they felt like the entire culture was going to unite against them and harass them until they finally forfeited their religious beliefs and accepted gay sex as something simply super.
Do I agree with this view? Not really. But the fact is that’s how they felt about it.
Gay sieges of temples and targeted harassment campaigns do nothing to alleviate these fears.
In their urge to vent spleen, I think that gay advocates have lost sight of something here. What was the gay community in California trying to assure all of us prior to the Prop 8 vote?
“We’re not anti-religion.”
“We don’t want to force our views on other people.”
“Live and let live.”
That was what the anti-Prop 8 campaign was constantly assuring us of back in October and November.
Now, look at the actions of the gay community since they lost.
Pretty obvious that all those assurances were just hot air. The message sent by the GBLT community has been loud and clear.
“We hate religious people and will not stop until religion is annihilated.”
“If you won’t accept our lifestyle, we will FORCE you to accept it.”
“The world would be a better place without Mormons.”
This is all straight from rhetoric I’ve heard repeatedly by gays all over the internet. I’m not exaggerating.
So if the gay community was looking to turn this into a flat-out war for survival where it’s “them or us,” congratulations. You’re doing a swell job (and don’t think I’m only blaming gays – the pro-Prop 8 crowd behaved stupidly here as well).
What’s sad is that the LDS Church was actually making some really good progress on gay issues. The venomous reaction from the gay community will only strengthen the hardliners within the church and undermine the moderates.
Basically, the gay community is acting exactly like – irony of ironies – George W. Bush during his “Axis of Evil” speech. That kind of rhetoric played well to a lot of angry Americans.
“Hell yeah! Let’s stick it to foreign SOBs! Preach it man!”
What nobody noticed is that Bush’s stupid, over-the-top rhetoric actually destroyed the budding peace talks between North and South Korea, and was directly responsible for a backlash in Iran that toppled the moderate government of Khatami – a reformer who had been trying to mend bridges with the West and liberalize Iranian society. With Bush flipping the bird at them, the Iranians were pissed-off, the hardliners where strengthened, and the moderate reformers in Iran looked like a bunch of idiots for thinking they could ever accommodate “the Great Satan.”
Thanks George. Hope flipping the bird to the world felt really good. Because it cost us dearly.
And same to the gay community. Hope this outrage feels good. Because it’s set your cause back about 10 years, I’d say. Hope it was worth it for you.

While the story raises ethical questions about that particular use of publicly disclosed contribution data, the real focus of the post is why the media hasn’t shown more interest in the story.
from ChrissY:
Jack — “violence” — are you kidding me? It is the christian Extremist that are the problem. Be it mormon, catholic or islam.
as long as the media at large is singing “Chrissy’s Song”, expect this to get worse, not better. You guys are 1)the wrong color 2)way too religious 3)too visible Maybe you could adopt the snowy owl or a baby seal as a mascot….but I don’t think it will help
welcome to our Tolerant Town square.

sorry the above was GERMIT”S

Chrissy Maynard, re your comment, “Can’t we just give Gay folks civil marriage and move on? The mormons claimed to support such efforts, but were clearly lying to shift the focus from their deeds.”
.
WHEN since Adam and Eve until now have Latter-day Saints or our predecessors claimed to support the oxymoronic concept of homosexual marriage???

Oh, Seth R, where to begin????
You said, “Look, whether you agree with their feelings or not, the fact is that the Mormons who voted for Prop 8 felt threatened. Yes threatened. They felt like THEIR freedom was being attacked by the gay community. They felt like the gay community was FORCING them to embrace homosexuality.”
THIS IS HOW HETEROSEXUALS MAKE GAYS & LESBIANS FEEL EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THEIR LIVES. PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY IT IS OK FOR HETEROSEXUALS TO DO THIS, BUT NOT GAYS & LESBIANS?
WHY DON’T YOU SPEND YOUR ENTIRE LIFE TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK AND GET BACK TO US???

This is such crap. No one is trying to force anyone to be for homosexuality or whatever. They just want the rights that straight people get.
You know what I love? These people who claim that the gay community is “forcing” themselves on America are the same people who went and protested when the 10 commandments statue was removed from that courthouse. I’m sure if the statue had been of Harvey Milk and had an engraved quote about equality for LBGT citizens, they’d want it taken out for “forcing beliefs”. Yet having a statue of the CHRISTIAN Commandments (only two of which are written into our laws, by the way. Hell, the first four have to do with worshiping God) is not “forcing” anything. Be consistent, Fundies.

OK fine. You guys want equal rights? Or do you want to get even?
Take your pick, because you can’t have both.

Seth R.
“OK fine. You guys want equal rights? Or do you want to get even? Take your pick, because you can’t have both.”
We can’t trust you, so don’t offer anything. Just like the lds leadership, I suspect you are trying to divert attention. lds leadership stated their support for some rights for gay folks. They lied. The bills have died.
Don’t pretend. We know we can’t trust you.

You can’t trust me, I can’t trust you. So how about we all wander off to our own side of the line and throw poo at each other?
Again – you interested in progress, or are you interested in whining?

O/T, but I’m curious if anyone happened to also read this latest from The American Conservative?
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2009/feb/23/00014/
In the middle of writing this comment, I’ve just noticed that the article was linked to from T&S. So you’ve probably already read it.
In any case, speaking of T&S, Dave, your posts there have generally been good food for thought. I’m somewhat mystified as to why you insist on adopting an altogether different tone here. “Squawking” ? Seriously?
I mean, I’m as guilty as the next commenter when it comes to “squawking” in comments, but to include that characterization in the post and then expect civil discourse is asking a bit much of all of us, isn’t it?

Seth, what do you have to “trust” us on? The gay community wants nothing to do with the LDS Church. The problem is the LDS Church standing in the way of our rights, that’s the bone we have to pick with the church. If the Mormon Church had not donated $100,000+ in aid to the Yes on 8 campaign, not to mention telling their members to donate and volunteer for “Yes on 8″ or their “souls” would “be in jeopardy”. It’s not about specific members, it’s about the corrupt leaders that have put politics before their faith. Same problem that I have with the Catholic Church.

Chris Buttars should resign.
Once the whole enchilada becomes available for public consumption, the country is gonna be sickened by his camera drunk performance.
The documentary is coming out in July.
It’s one thing if Chris were to appear in that film in the role of a *former* Utah senator.
It’s another thing entirely if the audience were to be treated to the spectacle of a sitting state senator spewing this bile.
The choice of reactions is up to the Utah legislature.
July’s audience will either think “good for Utah for cutting this crank loose” or they’ll think “only in Utah can a jerk like this keep his job.”
It’s one or the other.
And if it’s the latter, it’s not like Chris is going to keep his job after July anyway.
Show a little humility and bow out now, or suffer utter humiliation later.
It’s up to you, Chris.

Jack,
“If the gay community is opposed to free speech and are against freedom to vote that says a lot more about them than it does about those who voted for prop 8.”
Jack, it isn’t that gay people are against the “freedom to vote”. That is very misleading (and typical, I might add). It’s what they were voting on – namely, taking away other people’s Constitutional (and human) rights. Tell us, in the spirit of doing to others what you would have done unto you, would you like your freedoms/rights/libertties put to a popular vote?
And how exactly are gay people against free speech? Aren’t peaceful protests considered free speech anymore?
“Those who voted for it may be bigoted”
“may be bigoted”???
“but what are the people that are willing to deny anyone that does not agree with them the right to conduct their business without being assaulted or harassed.”
More mis-/dis-information. No one was assaulted. Not. One. Single. Person. (Yet another lie of the ‘right’.) You fail to understand/realize/accept that the boycotted business had, as its largest clientele, the gay community. They realized the proprietor was against treateing them equally before the law. They withheld their business. Big freakin’ whup.
“I don’t have a problem with disclosure or but the resulting violence only gave away all of our civil rights.”
Once again, there was no violence. Over on the Crunchy Con blog, its author has been repeatedly asked to prove this observably false allegation, to come up with even one example of this alleged “violence” and – Bupkis. Nada. Zilch. NOTHING. And, btw, your rights have not been taken away. Gay people’s actually have been. A little reality, please.
“Will people feel free to vote they way they feel next time?”
What will the topic of the bote be? Jack’s civil liberties? Or don’t you think your rights should be put to a vote?
“This is the same tactic the KKK used against blacks and now we have gay activists doing it.”
Your comparison is obscene. The KKK actually lynched blacks, just like so many gay citizens have been murdered. I assure you “gay activists” have not murdered anyone. Get a clue.
“I opposed Prop 8″
Thanks for your ‘suppport’. But with the false witness you promulgate, with friends like you, who needs enemies?

Seth,
“Look, whether you agree with their feelings or not, the fact is that the Mormons who voted for Prop 8 felt threatened. Yes threatened.”
Look, whether you agree with reality or not, the fact is that gay people actually ARE threatened. Yes, threatened. And then beaten. Actually. And fired from their jobs. Yes, fired. And denied the opportunity to visit their beloved in the hospital. Yes, denied their basic humanity. And killed. Yes, killed. (Pace Matt Shephard, Gwen Araujo, Larry King, Teena Brandon, Aaron WEbster. et al)
“They felt like THEIR freedom was being attacked by the gay community.”
Whereas our freedom (our liberties, our rights) actually was being attacked. There’s a difference between “feeling like” something is happening and it actually happening.
“They felt like the gay community was FORCING them to embrace homosexuality.”
Well, that simply is not the case. Frankly, we don’t give a rat’s patootie if you “accept” us or “embrace” us; what we want is equal treatment before the law, and our Constitutional right to equal treatment (which Prop 8 took away – ACTUALLY).
“Not just live-and-let-live tolerance …”
I could type a much, much longer list of the gay people who were denied the “live” part. Sorry, but the anti-equality side is more than happy to deny other people with whom they disagree the right to live. You call that “tolerance”? I call B.S.
“but a liberal attempt to get government enforcement for approval of the gay lifestyle.”
Here’s a free clue, Seth. Being gay is not a “lifestyle”. (Gay people have lives – until they’re snuffed out by the hate-mongers.) We want the government to recognize our relationships. Period.
“They saw gay marriage as an attempt by gays to win government enforcement of their lifestyle on other people.”
Such blatant balderdash. “enforcement”? You actually ‘think’ the Gubmint can ‘enforce’ being gay onto str8 people? You is nutz if you ‘think’ that. I suppose you also ‘think’ that Churches will be forced to perform same-sex marriages against their tenets. Suchabunchamalarkey.
“They felt their children where going to be bombarded with pro-gay propaganda in schools, they felt like they were going to be forced by gay lawsuits to perform gay marriages in their places of worship.”
Thanks for providing the two most demonstrably false examples of what your side ‘felt’. They ‘felt’ it mainly because the LDS Church told them these lies. Like the Catholic church has ever been “forced” to re-marry divorced people, even though divorce and subsequent re-marriage is perfectly legal. Simply, observable, provably not true. Ain’t bearing false witness a sin anymore?
“And generally, they felt like the entire culture was going to unite against them and harass them until they finally forfeited their religious beliefs and accepted gay sex as something simply super.”
Well, despite the fact that gay sex is simply super, no one has been forced to forfeit their religious beliefs. Having said that, please explain why pro-equality religious faiths (and there are several) actually aren’t allowed to exercise their tenets?
“We hate religious people and will not stop until religion is annihilated.”
Such blarney. If you’d bother to notice, the vast majority of those legal same-sex marriages happened in GLBT (and GLBT supportive) places of worship. Mine was.
I’m not exaggerating.”
It sure comes across that way.
“What’s sad is that the LDS Church was actually making some really good progress on gay issues.”
They were? DO tell.

Some many of you straight people are so heartbreakingly sad.
I worry about your future. For you see, Gays & Lesbians have LOVE and GOD on OUR side. You people only seem to have hate. (How fun for you.) With your attitudes and outlooks toward your fellow human beings, happiness and success will never be a part of your future.
It’s not too late for you to turn your life around. It’s really not.
I understand. I do. You wanted to keep the faggots down. You wanted Prop 8 to pass and it passed. You felt so manly. So sueprior. So right. You kept the faggots down! Or so you thought…
But y’all seemed to have forgotten to check on whether or not what you was doin’ was Constitutionally legal and all. But then you thought, hell, who cares? No one! It’s just the faggots.
But then the faggots and those that are lucky enough to share their lives and friendships with them said, wait a minute, this is not justice. This is not what our Constitution promises EACH and EVERY one of us as taxpaying citizens of this State. And so we started make some noise and some progress, and then, boo hoo, you hated us even more. And now you’re just hating us faggots more than ever and we’re going to destroy America and the family, blah, blah, blah… It’s always the same crap with people like you.
You are so f’ing tired, we need a new word for tired.

People seem to be under the impression that I actually agreed with the fears of conservative Mormons.
I don’t, and never did. But that doesn’t mean I don’t understand where they were coming from. I think conservative Mormons overreacted and still are overreacting. The only point of my posts was to say that the hateful backlash isn’t helping. It’s merely hardening ideological lines.
And by the way – gays aren’t the only people getting beaten up, threatened and ostracized in America. It happens to Mormons too. It just doesn’t tend to get as much attention, because we aren’t the media’s current pet project.

The Mormon Church’s position in connection with the State of California’s Proposition 8 is in direct conflict, direct opposition, and direct violation to the eleventh and the twelfth articles of faith, and the verses in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 134. The right of civil marriage existed in the State of California for homosexual people, as clearly stated by the State of California’s Supreme Court. Regarding the twelfth article of faith, the Mormon Church’s efforts were clearly not to obey, honor, and sustain the law as it existed, but to overturn that law. Many other religions had the spiritual and religious right to solemnize marriages for homosexual people. The Mormon Church did seek to deny them these spiritual and religious rights. The eleventh article of faith and Doctrine and Covenants, section 134, both clearly state that the Mormon Church should not interfere with the spiritual or religious rights of others. The Doctrine and Covenants, section 134, verse 9, specifically state that it is inappropriate to mingle religious influence with civil government where it fosters one religious viewpoint, but proscribes spiritual privileges and individual civil rights of others. The Doctrine and Covenants, section 134, verse 4, clearly limit’s the exercise of the Mormon Church’s religion where it “infringe upon the rights and liberties of others.” Marriage is a “right” in the United States (as clearly stated in Loving v. Virginia in 1967) This right is recognized by the United Nations’ Universal Declaration of Human Rights to which the United States is a signatory. The Mormon Church attempted and forced its own moral standard upon others, and thereby, depriving others of spiritual and religious privileges and civil rights.
The Doctrine and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, the Book of Mormon, the Holy Bible, and their contents are binding upon the membership and the leadership of the Mormon Church as the official doctrine of the Mormon Church.
As indicated in this post, the Mormon Church is in direct conflict, direct opposition, and direct violation of their official doctrine. This is immoral. There is no reason for others to believe in the official doctrine of the Mormon Church, especially, since the Mormon Church itself doesn’t believe in it. The Mormon Church knows better and this is the reason I targeted the Mormon Church concerning all things pertaining to Proposition 8.

I’m sorry Jack, but you are wrong on this one. You stated that our stand was indirect conflict with the tenets of our faith. Let’s look at them: Article of Faith 12 “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”
D&C 134:9 We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
It is very evident at first glance that there may be a contradiction, but if we look further at the meanings and the justification than it becomes clear. We do believe that we ought to be subject to the laws. That does not mean that we have no obligation to ensure that laws are just. But wait, you say, would that not mean that you are ‘mingling in government’ as described by 134 verse 9? Read what that verse says. It basically says that no one religion should have laws passed to bolster it up at the expense of another religious group. Last time I checked, homosexuality is not a religious group, it is a lifestyle choice. Furthermore you bring into the equation the court ruling Loving v. Virginia. This case dealt specifically with interracial marriage. A totally different ballgame as race is an inherited characteristic and as of Feb 2009, sexual preference is directed by ones choices! Besides it is important to point out that government worked differently in the 1830s as compared to today. This vote was not partisan, so all the tax conversations ought to be put to rest, but an issue.
Article of Faith 11 “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”
This belief is centered on religious worship. One’s sexual preference, though my be influenced by religious moral code is not the same thing as a religious worship. And on that note, we do allow others to believe what they want and worship and practice how they want as long as it does not compromise others’ ability to worship.
Finally, as long as we are using the Articles of Faith, it is important to bring 9 into the picture. “9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
If God sees a problem, he will reveal the direction that he wants us to take to his prophets.

Erik, you really think homosexuality is a lifestyle choice? You chose to be straight? You’d happily choose to be gay if you didn’t think it was a sin? Really? Good to know.

I think it is not nice that if a member is gay, he or she is ostracized by the ward they are attending. My father is a member of the High Council, he is a much more powerful wizard than you are. My Daddy says it is perfectly okay for a member to be homosexual. I feel bad for all the gay people that the Mormon community spits on. Kind of how they probably feel bad for how they treated the black man back in the day. All those rude things Brigham Young would say, how “they were cursed with fat lips and big nose.” Well I am glad I was not gay and did not suffer through the persecution that I am sure some members of this church go through. The ones that are waking up every morning wondering why they are different and everyone hates them, and how they think maybe they should just kill themselves. What a crazy thing to say no to prop 8, I say VOTE YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! VOTE YES ON PROP 8 And don’t be republican just because all the other Mormon’s are, be a democrat and support the black president of the United States make a difference in life. say “YES WE CAN” WOO WOO, WOO WOO! And get up on the pulpit and scream out JESUS LOVES YOU! Not just or you or You BUT EVERYONE!

What is this, the bs blog?
“Last time I checked, homosexuality is … a lifestyle choice.”
Yeah, r-i-i-i-g-h-t. Just like heterosexuality is. Where on earth (or any other fantasy world) did you ‘check’, Eric? What makes you believe anyone’s sexuality is a “choice”? And, if it is, that means you could “choose” to ‘become’ gay.
And what the heck is a “lifestyle”? Is there such a thing as “the heterosexual lifestyle”?
“Furthermore you bring into the equation the court ruling Loving v. Virginia. This case dealt specifically with interracial marriage. A totally different ballgame as race is an inherited characteristic and as of Feb 2009, sexual preference is directed by ones choices!”
Lissen, I’m gay. I did not choose to be gay; I just am. I’m ‘sure’ you ‘choose’ to whom you are attracted, but for the rest of the real world, one is atttracted to whom one is attracted to. One doesn’t choose attraction – it comes naturally.
Sexual orientation is an inherent, innate and morally neutral characteristic. It is what we do with ouor sexuality – i.e. how we treat others – that carries moral values.
You are so misinformed you do serious damage to the collective Mormon ‘thought’. Get a clue.

Fine I’ll be more specific. To be homosexual as I see it is to have physical relations with someone of the same sex. I don’t consider the attraction to or the feeling that someone of the same sex is beautiful to be homosexual. It is a function of our sense of beauty. To be a homosexual you have to have engaged in certain actions. Actions, all actions, are decision based.
I can see that you won’t agree with me on this so I’ll illustrate. First there is no such thing as “I just am” or “you just are” There are physiologic reasons that guide our behaviors, especially the primitive ones like sexuality and anger. Violence and aggression have long been attributed to hormonal variations registered in the central nervous system. Testosterone has been the bad guy hence the reason most medical criminologists say that the vast majority of violent crimes are commited by men. So if aggression is so controlled by these hormonal levels, than under the same argument put forth by the gay community, they should not be punished for their actions and there aggression should not be discouraged.
Now I realize that there are huge differences like agression negatively affects another individual and homosexuality on concensual, etc. But at the same time, if aggressive people just “are” than how can we justify not locking them up for good? The answer is that there is the belief that under 99% of circumstances we, our consious mind, has the ability to not act on our biochemical promptings. We are pushing for laws to govern your sexuality, we are only asking that you don’t impose your sexuality on religion (marriage was formed as a religious rite, not a governmental institution that belongs to all regardless situation)
In addition it is clear that our biochemical mileu can actually change. When I was in med school, I had a colleague who was in a homosexual relationship for over 10 years. In her final year of school, she broke off her relationship with her partner, began dating a guy and eventually got married to him. In speaking to her afterward she noted that she always found members of the opposite sex attractive, but enjoyed the physical so much that she remained with her partner. I’m sure you now of others who were married with families and decided to pursue homosexual relationships. The point is, it can’t be genetically hardwired and just change. More importantly, we are not low-level animals. We are not ruled by our instincts.
There is so much more that could be said. I am very much so informed. Having spent time with the researchers at UCLA, Roger Gorski and met with Evelyn Hooker and others.

Erik, your further ‘specificity’ didn’t help…
“To be homosexual as I see it is to have physical relations with someone of the same sex.”
If that is the way you “see” it, then you are, simply, wrong. It is not to have physical relations; it is to be attracted to someone of the same sex. I am gay whether or not I act on that attraction. It’s the way God saw fit to make me.
“To be a homosexual you have to have engaged in certain actions.”
Repeating a false claim doesn’t add a modicum of truth to it. What you typed is merely your opinion.
“Actions, all actions, are decision based.”
An attraction or an orientation is not an action. You. Are. Simply. Wrong.
“I can see that you won’t agree with me on this so I’ll illustrate….”
Your example did not illustrate a thing. It merely supported your position. You (again) repeat the “behaviors” trope. It was/is a lame attempt to find a ’cause’ for homosexuality. Like anyone has spent a millisecond finding the ’cause’ of heterosexuality. One either is or is not attracted to the opposite sex. Gay people simply are not. Get used to it. (And your comparison of sexuality to anger, violence, crime and aggression are superfluous and irrelevant attempts to somehow lilnk gay people to those traits. Your ‘argument’ does not wash.)
“Now I realize that there are huge differences like agression negatively affects another individual and homosexuality on concensual, etc.”
If you realized it, why did you post such nonsense?
All your gobbledygook about not allowing people to ‘act’ on their “biochemical promptings” is a barely disguised roundabout way of saying that you believe homosexual are sinful. So what? Others don’t believe they are. And we actually believe in freedom of religion. Why should we be forced to abide by the tenets of a religion to which we do not belong?
“We are pushing for laws to govern your sexuality”
Why? (Apart from your religious beliefs, that is.)
“we are only asking that you don’t impose your sexuality on religion”
Such blatant blarney. My religion is perfectly fine with my homosexuality. I was married in my Church. No one is “imposing” their sexuality on your (or any) Church. The reverse cannot be said. You are observably trying to impose your religion on other people’s sexuality.
“(marriage was formed as a religious rite”
This is an outright lie (aka the bearing of false witness). Ain’t that a sin in your religion?
“not a governmental institution that belongs to all regardless situation)”
Except, of course, the government recognizes religious marriages. Well, some of them, anyway. We want that inequality redressed.
Your college friend sounds like she was bisexual all along. So what? She still got to marry the person she loved. The same cannot be said in the reverse. (Yes, I could give you several examples of seemingly heterosexual folk who later in life found the courage to be who they really were. Not that you’d put any weight in anecdotal examples, so I feel free to equally dismiss your anecdote.)
“More importantly, we are not low-level animals. We are not ruled by our instincts.”
But you spent most of an entire post explaing how we are indeed ruled by our “biochemical promptings”, our “hormonal variations”, our “testosterone” levels. Which is it?
“I am very much so informed.”
Sorry, it doesn’t come across that way. Ms Hooker would weep at the amount of dis-information you attempt to spread.