Well, there is unity, and then there is Unity. I guess we can see what their biggest FEAR is, homosexuals. That must mean God is gay, because the FEAR of God is the beginning of understanding. Until the multitude of baptists begin to understand they will forever have a stumbling block to their collective faith. Does this little bit of heresy (or is it balsphemy, I get them confused because they are both so much fun) will sting and terrify a few folks. Good. It will amuse other – also good. The folks I worry about are the ones who don’t care.

I wonder whether Presidents Carter and Clinton, both good men, will continue to endorse this bigoted event.

Since our Lord Jesus Christ never spoke/taught against homosexuality…I wonder if these good Baptists believe they are correcting his oversight.
Whatever they are doing, it appears they are not following the great commandment.
Peace!

The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong.

The bible teaches that a lot of things are wrong. However, how do you decifer which of those things are the “will of God” and which were just cultural and social rules of the time? If you don’t think that there is a distinction then there are a lot of self-righteous Christians living very hypocritical lives.

“This is not a new covenant at all. This is the old covenant of exclusion, people being excluded based on their … belief system.”
Well, to be fair, what religion you are is kind of…DEFINED by your belief system. (And am I the only one who finds it really weird Presidents Clinton and Carter are Baptist?)
What I don’t understand is the point of this event. From the sound of it, it is supposed to be addressing “issues of which there is broad consensus.” Well, in the first group in any case, it sounds as though a broader social justice agenda is their focus, so they should not be cut out. The second group sounds, to me, more focused on homosexuality, so if they’re basically a “gay group,” then maybe it makes sense to not involve them, merely because then this event will be about homosexuality when it’s supposed to be about different things.
I don’t know…I think more info is needed.
God bless.

Sensible-
“The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong.”
If that is what you think, then I suggest you go back and actually study the Bible. Prior to the King James (the notorious bisexual) version….the Bible does not even suggest it is wrong.
So, were all the earlier versions of the Bible incorrct?
Exclusion was not Christ’s message.
Peace!

Joey, Jimmy Carter was a Southern Baptist long before the denomination took a hard turn to the Right and into intolerance. He has kept with the faith but attends a S. Baptist church that has a more traditional and moderate ideology. One of his most stunning moments was when Jerry Falwell visited the White House and asked him why he left Christianity. Jimmy Carter is a very compassionate person whose personal integrity does not mesh with the intolerant exclusiveness of the Religious Right.

First I want to address this statement: “The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong.
Posted by: Sensible | July 27, 2007 11:27 AM”
In matter of fact the Bible does not teach this at all. People like the Baptist and other judgmental evangelicals have taken key Scriptures out of context and formed this belief around them. On the other hand what these Scriptures do teach is that immorality is wrong.
Secondly: “We asked to be a participating organization because we value the same things the New Baptist Covenant values,” he said. “This is not a new covenant at all. This is the old covenant of exclusion, people being excluded based on their … belief system.”
This is precisely the heart of the matter. The Baptists have always done that. If you believe as we do, the church ascertains, you are welcome in our communion. If you do not then you are wrong and God condemns you for being wrong. The covenant is indeed an old one and actively excludes anyone with different thinking, i.e. their belief system. It’s like George Bush who behaves as if the world’s near 6 billion population is wrong and only he is right. So it is with the Baptist. While they maintain that only they are right, they display to the entire world just how hypocritical their belief system actually is.

My sympathies are with the organizers of the Baptist unity celebration, and I offer my support for their courageous and Biblically based stand. The exclusion is not based upon belief, but upon conduct, which the Bible clearly and repeatedly denounces as wicked and abominable.

This really doesn’t surprise me as someone who was raised in the S. Baptist church. I couldn’t run from that hatemongering religion fast enough. Even as a child I saw there teachings as hateful and wrong. What I don’t understand is how some (not all) members of this religion can talk about how the lamb will lay down with the lion and yet, Continuely choose to participate in the behvior and beliefs that make it impossible for the lamb and lion to lay together. Makes no sense to me whatsoever.
I think for those peeps Russell Bertrand said it best, IMHO.
“” Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so.” ~Bertrand Russell~”
Just my two cents, your milage may vary.

“People like the Baptist and other judgmental evangelicals have taken key Scriptures out of context and formed this belief around them.”
OUT OF CONTEXT!?
Leviticus 18 spells out very clearly in what it says. It also talks about incest, pedaphealia, adultery and beasteality. Are they also “out of context?”
p.s. sorry about the spelling.

Leviticus also commands certain people to be put to death. Quite telling how so many Christians wiggle and don’t follow THAT literally – perhaps because they’d feel a little shitty following such a nonsensical rule.

rmcq-
Leviticus also says that eating shelfish is an abomination. So, do you you eat shelfish….and/or animals with split hooves?
Out of between ~31,000 verses in the Bible there are ~6 that are often pointed to as addressing gay people. And, none of them are “clear”.
Peace!

I’m not asking about all of the ~31 000 verses or even saying I don’t agree with what is being said. I’m just asking for some more explaination regarding the statement. Leviticus 18:22 “Thou shall not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” All versions of the bible I’ve looked at says the same thing. The Living Bible even uses the term Homosexuality. How is this verse not clear or is out of context?

Leviticus is as out of fashion as the Temple – wheich fell almost 2,000 years ago. So set that aside, unless you want to go back to animal sacrifice, stoning, and all sorts of other means of atonement that have long since been obliterated. Any other reference to homosexuality is not anywhere nearly as damning.

rmoq-
Here is a lot of info on Leviticus that will assist you in your understanding of why it is not “clear” as well as “not in context”.
A discussion on the book of Leviticus
I hope this helps.
Peace!

Sorry, try this link:
Leviticus Link
And, just in case here is the addy:
http://www.beliefnet.com/boards/message_list.asp?boardID=740&discussionID=280325

“Sensible”,
“The Bible clearly teaches that homosexuality is wrong.”
If it’s so “clear”, the debate wouldn’t be happening.
rmcq,
The “out of contex” charge applies to YOU, too. You quoted Leviticus 18:22 (we are all quite familiar with it), but you edited it YOURSELF. It demands that they shall “surely be put to death”. Do you agree with that? Do you DO that? Do you likewise abide by the comand to put to death victims of incest? Disobedient children? Do you picket Red Lobster because the Bible clearly says that eating shellfish is an “ABOMINATION”?
“The Living Bible even uses the term Homosexuality. How is this verse not clear or is out of context?”
The LB also says tat Jonathan and David “sadly shook hands” while more reputable versions indicate that they “embraced one another and kissed one another until Jonathan exceded” (“exceded” is translated as “had an orgasm” by Biblical scholars far more versed than I in the matter). I’d suggest you get a better translation.
Or are you yet another selective fundamentalist? (Hey, let’s all play “Version, Version, who’s got the ‘right’ version” – SHEESH already!)
And did ANYONE else get the HIGH irony that this proposed conference is called “Unity”, yet it is based on exclusion???
It is to laff!

Did the “Saint” take a “Holiday”?
“The exclusion is not based upon belief”
Of course it is. Both The Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists and the Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America believe that God’s love extends to ALL people. The North American Baptist Fellowship believes otherwise.
As the article states, it is very much about “what the different chief executive officers of the North American Baptist Fellowship … felt COMFORTABLE doing” (emphasis mine) and “people being excluded based on their … belief system”. Sorry to have to prove you wrong.
Something about comforting the afflicted and afflicting the comfortable. Wouldn’t want to make a Southern Baptist “uncomfortable” now, would we?
Who would Jesus exclude?

“And did ANYONE else get the HIGH irony that this proposed conference is called “Unity”, yet it is based on exclusion???”
I missed it until you pointed it out. Thanks! If this weren’t so profoundly sad….it would be quite funny.
Peace!

“fellowship officials decided the groups could not be members of the fellowship”
Yup – that’s SOME “unity” eh?

If you are not a homosexual, you should stop worrying about whether it is right or wrong and start worrying about the plank in your own eye. We all have shortcomings, whether they are clearly described in the Bible or not. We should focus on loving those who are persecuted unjustly for their actions instead of trying to figure out if they’re right or wrong. Jesus’ only law was to love, unconditionally. If sin is all set upon the same scale, and it is, then we should be focused on correcting our own cheating, cursing, violence, etc. because it is just as sinful as homosexuality, whether it’s wrong or not. Homosexuality is just more in the public eye and more controversial consequently. THAT’S why it’s such a taboo issue and people get so fired up over it. If we just let go and love, no matter if homosexuality is wrong or not, we’ll be following biblical and Christ-inspired teaching.

Joshua,
I think your heart is in the right place, but you sure sound conflicted…
“we should be focused on correcting our own cheating, cursing, violence, etc. because it is just as sinful as homosexuality, whether it’s wrong or not.”
More than once you say things (about homosexuality) like “whether it’s wrong or not”, yet you continue to list it under the “sinful” category.
No one has convinced me that loving, committed, consenting, adult, human (how sad that we must continue to type that to counter the absurd comparisons to beasiality!) same-sex relationsihps ARE “sinful”. People are free to believe that they are, but if we truly have freedom of religion, then others MUST be free to believe otherwise. It really isn’t helpful to compare things that cause harm (cheating, violence, etc.) to our very existence (i.e. “homosexuality” = the state of being attracted to one of the same sex, whether or not one acts upon it) as “just as sinful”.
This is how we are belittled, demeaned, diminished in people’s eyes – your words encourage them to think of gay PEOPLE and ther relationships in pejorative terms. Thanks for hearing me out.

I escaped from an intolerant Christian church years ago. During that time, I struggled with my beliefs and learned to chart my own spiritual course, one that makes sense to me, that resonates harmony between my soul and the world around me. I have much further to go, but it’s a decidedly more joyful and rewarding journey than the path my fellow Christians took.
Glancing through these posts is like looking into a time capsule, seeing the Literal Regurgitators facing off against the Hopeless-but-sweet Apologizers.
The Soviet Union embraced communism as a way of explaining the entire universe throughout history. Quite a fascinating project to attempt (and a great read if you’re so inclined), but clearly futile from the word go.
As a man who is sexually attracted to other men, I don’t fit in the Christian world because of my neuro-physiology, because of patterns of involuntary behavior which are unchangeable. Any religion that claims love as its guiding precept, yet fails to embrace each and every member of society is fundamentally and fatally flawed.