There should just be a law: “All laws do not apply to Amish people.” Then, a warning on anything made by the Amish: “This may kill those use to cleanliness or standards.” Lots of problems solved.
Now, in general, are Amish cattle sold for meat outside the Amish community? Is there another way to track the Amish cattle without these chips? If there can be a way around this, I think the Amish should get an exception (though, come on—I think God could have come up with something more important to warn St. John about than this law when he came up with “Mark of the Beast”).
God bless.

Quote: Michigan is one of the few states making the voluntary national program mandatory.
Foot and Mouth disease, and Mad Cow disease are terrible diseases, probably caused by the “Mark of the Beast”, just kidding! Why wouldn’t the Farmers of the U.S. not want to keep their buyers, and eaters of their livestock alive and healthy? If there is a way to do this ALL farmers should cooperate, as well as the Amish farmers.

Modern society and it’s demands unfortunately may have to intrude on the Amish, with the demand that they tag their cattle. Wonder if branding the cattle instead would work just as well,with an acceptable number that doesn’t stand for the “mark of the beast”. The folks in the cattle world would know that a certain brand meant the cow/bull came from an Amish farm.

I think they want to be able to track the animal in great detail; probably when & where born, where it had been when, and likely to be able to associate that info. with the meat after butchering. A brand wouldn’t do it. I suggest the Amish reserve the “mark of the beast” concern for other things, like a national identity card or chip for each of us that would likely keep the same kind of info.
Public health should trump religion.

The mark of the beast in The Book of Revelations, and I am sure that the Amish peoples know this well, will be the “number of a man : and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” 666 to most of us. (Remember the movie Omen?) All that follow the “Beast”, and not our Saviour Jesus the Christ, will receive this mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. (Revelations Chapter 13, check it out.) It does not say cattle, but mentions people.
BUT,—There are peoples who believe that this “mark” will be a chip that can be scanned and the information held in a worldwide computer. Some feel that this computer will be the beast or at least part of it. In those days you will not be able to buy or sell unless you have the mark of the beast, therefore you must make a very serious choice, ie, Satan or the Christ! The Amish obviously follow that belief, as do I.
I can understand where the Amish people are coming from on this issue and I have heard of persons who balked at buying homes with the address of 666 for fear it is the evil beast’s number. Although 666 is not a 15 digit number it could worry some persons I’m sure.
One thing that is really cool though; as a sweet lady from over at church once said, “I have read the book, and in the end the Lord wins”.
Take care and God Bless.

“I have read the book, and in the end the Lord wins”.
You’d think, if there were an ounce of truth to all this, that Satan would also read the book and go into a different line of work.
But of course common sense like that would hurt business for a lot of preachers, so it gets ignored.

Please leave the Amish alone. Live and let live. Separation of religion and state. Too much government is “too much”.

“You’d think, if there were an ounce of truth to all this, that Satan would also read the book and go into a different line of work.”
Nnmns, if God appeared to you in a vision right now, showing forth His Glory and the ultimate meaning and destiny of all the created universe, we both know you would still be too stubborn to ever do a thing he says. Why should Satan be any different?
God bless.

“Nnmns, if God appeared to you in a vision right now, showing forth His Glory and the ultimate meaning and destiny of all the created universe, we both know you would still be too stubborn to ever do a thing he says. Why should Satan be any different?”
Not stubborn, bemused. I’d be sure I’d had some kind of mental episode. If there were a powerful god and it wanted to prove itself to me there are all kinds of things it could do: it could write in fire across the sky that it exists and what kind of god it is, in all the world’s languages. That would be pretty convincing and only fair if it plans to torture us forever if we don’t believe/do just the right things.
Or it could suddenly solve the world’s problems. All at once, from a standing start. Don’t worry, we’d create new ones but it would be quite convincing of some kind of godlike power working in the world if that happened.
And no doubt an all-knowing god could think of other convincing acts. Funny, no such thing has happened.

The NAIS is something that a lot of small farmers, not just the amish, protest. Here’s the thing… NAIS is a state-federal partnership, and is still in the trial stages. Which is why the federal government, USDA, made the program VOLUNTARY… there’s no reason for a state to make everyone participate, just because.
“NAIS will require each person to register their property with the government, individually tag and identify each animal (in most cases with electronic identification), and report all kinds of “events” to a database. NAIS will apply to everyone who owns even one of the listed species: horses, chickens, cows, goats, sheep, pigs, deer, elk, bison, turkeys, pigeons, even fish ponds. Small local farms, hobby farmers, and homesteaders-even people who own just a few chickens because they like fresh eggs-will all be burdened with these government requirements.” (countryside magazine, Jan/Feb 2007)
Who among you owns cats, dogs or ferrets? Are they registered, tagged and licenced with your county or state (do you pay a yearly fee for the license)? I’ll bet probably not… even though most counties/states require them to be… mine does.
So before you criticize, do some research… the law may not affect you, but it does affect a lot of people who have the right to protest a law in their state that is obviously not a federal priority

Jenn, we all have the right to protest. And very possibly the law needs work, but in this age of awareness of food-born health risks we as producers and consumers both should want systems that will protect us and the reputation of our agricultural products.
I hope it can be made easy to use but I’m behind its use. And if Michigan wants to get ahead of the curve on this it could be to the benefit of Michigan farmers. Think about the effect on lettuce farmers in California of the recent health scare and the fact they couldn’t trace the lettuce at all well.
I do not feel sorry for the Amish on this.

Congress, and by extension, state governments, cannot pass any law that interferes with the free exercise of religion. That is what the Constitution says, and that is the trump card. End of story.
If there is a God, nnmns, then I, too would expect Him to do something to make Himself known to the world. And I believe He did. The cross on which God placed His Son to pay for the sins of human beings is a miraculous, spectacular, and convincing sign that there is a loving God.
The thing is, God exists whether you believe He does or not.

WC, there are various laws that interfere with the free exercise of religion. For instance there are limits to how much parents who don’t believe in actual medical care can deny it to their sick children.
And there is no documentation outside the Bible for that “miraculous, spectacular, and convincing” cross scene. It being so miraculous and spectacular, and there being people in that time who kept records of events, you’d think someone would have recorded it or at least commented on it, and you might even think such a god would arrange for independent verification. But no, there is none. To believe it happened as described we’d have to believe a book that was written just to make people believe in that and the religion based on it. I, for one, am not so easily sold a bill of goods like that one.
Oh, and what are all those sins he needed to pay for? Wouldn’t it be better if we all paid for our own sins? Maybe we’d be less likely to commit them if we didn’t have a blank check, sin-wise. That’s one reason I don’t see Christians as being any more honest than anyone else.

“Maybe we’d be less likely to commit them if we didn’t have a blank check, sin-wise.”
Yet, you want God to fix all the problems of the world instantly, rather than have us fix them ourselves.
IJS. God bless.

nnmns:
Enjoyed and agreed with, your 9:34 AM, August 22,07 post! Well done!

The old-fashioned ear tag would probably work as well as the RFID. While an ear tag would be removed at some point after the slaughter process, so would the RFID chip anyway, since the chips usually only go into the fat layer just under the skin. So the idea that a chip would allow the carcass to be identified after slaughter and processing is a bit light-weight …unless you have no objections to eating RFID components if they were placed deeper into the animal’s muscles. (They could of course be removed immediately before sale by the retailer, but do you think your local supermarket would really take the time?)
The only real advantage RFID has to the old tag method is that you can track an animal with a swipe from an RFID reader rather than have to actually write down a number and an entry.

nnmns,
Joey said, “Nnmns, if God appeared to you in a vision right now, showing forth His Glory and the ultimate meaning and destiny of all the created universe, we both know you would still be too stubborn to ever do a thing he says.”
You said, “Not stubborn, bemused. I’d be sure I’d had some kind of mental episode.”
Then you go on to list all the things God could do to convince you of His existence. What would prevent you from again thinking that you had another mental episode?
As Windsors Child points out – God did the most miraculous thing possible and died on a cross because of His love for us. Jesus’s death on the cross is historical fact. Weather or not you choose to believe it was for you is what is open for debate. When Jesus died on the cross, there was thunder, lightening, an earthquake, the sky went black (eclipse), and the curtain in the Holy Temple that separated God from Man split in half. Some people who were witnesses still didn’t believe. God has done all He can. He stands at the door and knocks. Its up to you to open it.
Where is your earthly father? Is it possible that you have a messed up view of God because you have an absent earthly father?
If I am wrong and there is no God… so what? If you are wrong and there is a God… Well, you owe it to yourself to be sure. A great (small and easy to read) book is More Than A Carpenter by Josh McDowell. It will set you back about $2.00. I think the God question is worth $2.00 and a couple hours of your time.

Now, my opinion on the RFID chip.
I agree with TheTaupinfan. I’m not so sure that the chip won’t cause a type of infection in the animals. If people are too lazy to write something down, then they’ll be to lazy to scan, or the scanner will malfunction, or the computer they are supposed to upload to, etc.
I really think that the government is trying to slowly get us used to the RFID and it will eventually be mandatory – being injected into people at birth.
I don’t personally think that the chip is the mark of the beast. It may morph into that one day though. Some people are having them implanted and they are mandatory for certain people in other countries. Search Yahoo or Google for Digital Angel, Mark of the Beast, & RFID. Scary stuff. In the end, the Amish will be the best off for awhile. They will be able to live through trading food and goods. Eventually, they will be killed for not receiving the mark like the rest of the Christians. Until then though, they will be better off than the rest of us who will pay for a loaf of bread with a bag of gold.

“If I am wrong and there is no God… so what? If you are wrong and there is a God…”
Which god – Judeo-Christian I assume? Which doctrine of salvation and heaven (universalism, Calvinism, etc)? How does one force belief (against their better judgement) and yet be “altruistic” enough for God to reward them? If Judaism or Islam turn out to be true, what recourse will Christians have?
These are just the shallow issues with Pascal’s Wager, an argument that may have had persuasion in the 17th century but has long since been discussed, debated, and torn apart. Of course, I doubt any of McDowell’s books go into any detail on this, instead focusing on using dishonest writing and poor logic to reaffirm Christian’s beliefs in their own delusions.

“Jesus’s death on the cross is historical fact.”
Wrong. It is entirely possible there never was a Jesus, the man Christians worship. If there was, his death would be fact. The rest of it has zero independent verification.
“Weather or not you choose to believe it was for you is what is open for debate. When Jesus died on the cross, there was thunder, lightening, an earthquake, the sky went black (eclipse), and the curtain in the Holy Temple that separated God from Man split in half. Some people who were witnesses still didn’t believe. God has done all He can. He stands at the door and knocks. Its up to you to open it.”
I repeat Amber, zero independent verification. Whether you get your religion tales from the Bible or from stories invented later, none of those miracles has a bit of independent verification. And the Bible was written by people trying to start a religion, so who’s going to believe it? Mostly people who had it poured into them at a young age.
Joey: “Yet, you want God to fix all the problems of the world instantly, rather than have us fix them ourselves.”
I pointed out that’s a way a powerful god could prove it exists. Or it could pick some other one. And we show no sign of fixing all the problems in the world.
“What would prevent you from again thinking that you had another mental episode?”
Well you could never be absolutely sure, but if all the other people you talk to also experienced the same thing at the same time, and it showed up in the news as happening everywhere, it’s strong evidence it happened and was not a figment of my imagination.
“Where is your earthly father? Is it possible that you have a messed up view of God because you have an absent earthly father?”
My father is dead. Most of us will have an “absent father” some day; get used to the idea. I do not have a messed up view of any god. I examine the evidence and there is no evidence for a god like most Christians, including I presume you, believe in. So actually you are the one messed up.
“If I am wrong and there is no God… so what? If you are wrong and there is a God… ”
Ah, the argument for belief in some god through cowardice. Perhaps you’ve been frightened into believing in your god. That’s a shame. I have not been frightened into believing in any god.
As Infidel points out there are lots of problems with that kind of argument for belief. A simple one: there are at a minimum hundreds of gods people believe in. Some are of the jealous variety like yours. Let’s say there are only 100 jealous gods people believe in and one of them actually exists. Then you have one chance in 100 of worshiping the right one (actually less but we’ll ignore that) and 99 chances of worshiping the wrong one. I have no chance in 100 of worshiping the right one and no chance of worshiping the wrong one.
Which one of us came out ahead would depend on how the actual god viewed worshiping some false god, versus worshiping no god. Unknowable.
I don’t believe in any god so this doesn’t worry me, but even if I did I think my odds would be better not worshiping any god.

yeah, nmns, you make some good points, but i still don’t understand why then, would the first disciples actually die for a fake cause if Jesus didn’t actually come.

Uh…I could ask the same question about why Muslims are not only DIEING but KILLING for their beliefs. Belief is a powerful thing…kinda like brain-washing…hmmmmmmm….
And I think if there is a God, then He/She would expect us to clean up our own mess…kinda like I expect my children to…
Peace

I have little sympathy for the Amish anymore. Like a lot of religious people, they have no true compassion for animals. They’re heavily into the puppymill/kittenmill racket, which produces cats and dogs assembly-line style, in terrible conditions, for profit. They want to be left alone? Then they should get out of the puppymill/kittenmill business, which results in millions of often sick and psychologically damaged cats and dogs that end up being sold by pet shops, and truly keep to themselves.

Nick, I hear that argument a lot but as thefish pointed out, it has no power. Lots of people die/have died for lots of religions. Are those religions all right? I think we’d agree they are not. That’s just another sales point. Think about it.

Hi all! Well, we have certainly gotten of the topic of Amish farmers and Id chips, haven’t we?
Again, McDowell’s book is only a small book, but very indepth. So, before you try to tell me what it does, or doesn’t say, why don’t you read it for yourself? McDowell started out writing his first two books to disprove Christianity, but couldn’t. He approached it from a very critical point. If you want even more depth, try The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroble.
To expand on what Nick said, and refute what thefish’s reply was, it is not the same as the Muslims dieing and killing for their beliefs. Eleven of the 12 died martyrs deaths (tortured, flogged, and death by the cruelest methods). They died for their belief in the resurrection of Christ and their belief in Him as the son of God. I can hear you all saying, “a lot of people have died for a lie. So, what does it prove?” Yes, a lot of people have died for a lie, but they thought it was the truth. Now, if the resurrection didn’t take place (ie, it was false), the disciples knew it. They wrote and spoke as eye-witnesses of the accounts the described. It would be hard to find eleven people in history who have died for a lie, knowing it was a lie.
Many comments have been made about paying for our own sins and cleaning up our own mess. The fish even commented on expecting his children to clean up. Well, I for one, am glad that I don’t have to pay for my sins! The payment for sin is death and being away from God forever. Now, that is not to say that He doesn’t allow us to feel the consequences of our mistakes here. He has given us free will so that we can be free to love Him (or not). In that free will, we may hurt ourselves and others. We’ve all experienced heart ache and pain (physical and other). I’m sure, that like any good parent, he wants us to do what will be best for us. He has told us how to live so that we will be healthy and happy and in a close relationship with Him, but sometimes we have to make our own mistakes before we follow His lead. I’m so glad that He died, knowing I would sin, and my eternity is secure with Him.
My “doctrine of salvation” and “religion” is simple – a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as my Lord, my savior, and my friend. The difference between Christianity and all the other religions is that they believe that you have to do good to get to heaven, Its by your works. Christianity believes that you can’t do good and the only way is through Christ. By loving Christ, you want to do good and please Him. So, if they are right, I guess I’m fine.
There is verification of the validity of the Bible. Again, read the books I mentioned as they cover that better than I can here. The Bible was not written by people trying to start a religion. Again – read.
I noticed, nmns, that you started name calling when there was a point that you couldn’t refute. Try to refrain. You say I am “messed up” because I believe in God. Yet, I am happy. I have a very loving family, but there are many issues (drug abuse for one) and yet, God has worked in me to heal all my wounds and enable me to reach other hurting people for Him. Tell me Nmns, are you happy? I’m not talking money, power, “success”. Just content that you are loved, have a purpose, and know where you are going?
When did your father die? You tell me to get used to the idea that all of us will have an absent father some day. I’ve had over two years to get used to that idea as my dad died in 2004. You say that perhaps I was frightened into believing in my God. Not true. My father was one of those who believed that there was a God, but there were many paths to him. I went to Sunday school, but not with any adults. I went of my own accord. My brother and I talked to our dad a lot about Jesus in the months before his death. I can only hope that he accepted Christ as his savior before dying. I am a critical thinker. I don’t believe just for the sake of believing. I’ve studied. There is an element of faith though. At some point you have to take that step and ask Christ to come into your heart, even though you don’t understand how that works. I would encourage you to pray now, even as an unbeliever. Tell God that if He is real, to reveal Himself to you.

ardeth:
Where did you find the information that the Amish are in the puppy/kitten mill business? To me that seems totally out of what I think the character of the Amish community is.

I’ve heard of Amish and Mennonites here in New York also balk at this mandatory program. While the Bible indicates that God’s Laws supersede Man’s Laws, Paul’s Epistle to Titus, and Peter’s first Epistle tell believers that they are encouraged to follow the “law of the land” regardless of the land in which they live. This is done so that the church isn’t seen as a stumbling-block to non-believers.
But beyond that, the Mark of the Beast is “666″ and not a 15 digit figure. Eve as given in the Book of Revelation, 600+20+20+20+6, is still only a 10 digit number. As given, it is the number of a man, not the number of a chip.
Titus 3:1 “Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,…”
1 Peter 2:13,14 “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.”
The Amish cannot not support their position scripturally.

Amber,
I never said I didn’t believe in God…I just don’t put much weight on the Bible and the myths and stories therein. I have found very good wisdom in the Bible and I have found very bad advice in the Bible.
I know that nnmns has no belief in any God and I totally respect that. I do agree with nnmns that the Bible isn’t a very good guide to find God.
You see my belief stems from something that was in my soul from birth, a feeling, a knowing…no other way to explain it. But try as I might, my inner “knowingness” didn’t correspond with what I learned in church every freaking Sunday in the deep South. But I believed because of the way it was presented to me (believe or die and go to Hell) This was a STRONG persuader to a young child. So even thought something inside me told me they were wrong, they were my elders and suppose to know more than me so I felt I had no choice. That’s what I mean by brain-washing. But for those of us who somehow (I can’t explain it) have an innate feeling that contradicts what we were taught, we are then “set free” when we lose those teachings and embrace what we knew was there all along. I simply cannot wrap my mind around the salvation story. It makes NO sense. God does not require sacrifice, but mercy. Jesus very own words. You see, I believe the spirit of “Christ” was in me from the beginning but man tried to tell me different. “He” was the one who set me free and told me it was all nonsense. So, I’m very happy and comfortable in my faith and belief, I no longer believe in Hell (which in turn makes death a non-issue now, I was terrified before) and believe Heaven is right here and now…you just have to “open your eyes and ears”…and it was Jesus who taught me that.
Peace

Amber:
There are so many reasons that the bible and it’s stories are not essential to life, mine anyhow. Great piece of literature, with a bit of good advice, and a lot of not so good advice. My first 17 years were in a Christian church, but in the early teens I began to really question the “book” as having any valid need in my life. Too may contradictions, to many “fairy” tale stories (water to wine, raising from the dead, 7 day creation of world, Adam and Eve etc.)that my life now without is great…and has been up until now, as I am in my early 60′s. My 2 children (one who is also an Amber) are non- believers also…and they are doing very well. There was no way I could raise them to believe in something I(we) didn’t. They were raised in the UU church, so yes, there was “church”, with no fire and brimstone. They were taught respect for other beliefs, and knew that their 2 aunts (my sisters)and families, are very devout Christians, one calling Jesus her “friend”. Works for them, not for me. So, you are happy where you are, and that is good. I am happy where I am. I respect my sisters beliefs as I did those of my parents. No amount of “preaching” from those who are convinced they have “THE WAY” will be changing my mind. My life is here, and that’s all she wrote. My ashes will someday return to the ocean, the source of life.
Personally, I don’t think any religion is the only one. For me, if I followed one, it would be closer to those of the Native Americans, or Celtic beliefs, before the intrusion of Christianity came along and tried to convert the “heathens”, by force, in many cases. Not respecting the native religions, IMO was very arrogant. I have much respect for the earth based religions.
I have high regard for the Amish, who have managed to continue in a way of life that goes along with their beliefs. It can’t be easy to do in this world. Wish that the ID thing could exclude them somehow, but we’ll see.

pagansister…
Precisely! And I’ll join you in the ocean…those are my plans as well.
Peace

thefish: Me thinks we’ll have LOTS of company!

“So, before you try to tell me what it does, or doesn’t say, why don’t you read it for yourself? McDowell started out writing his first two books to disprove Christianity, but couldn’t. He approached it from a very critical point. If you want even more depth, try The Case For Christ, by Lee Stroble.”
I have no need or desire to repeat what it says, and that wasn’t the intention. I will point out, though, that I have indeed read those books. Strobel’s writing is far from what any nontheist would call critical, often ignoring and misinterpreting evidence and arguments that diverge from the opinions and beliefs he had at the outset of his “journalistic reasearch”.
Likewise with McDowell’s book, which, if I recall correctly, is more or less a rehash of C.S. Lewis’ “liar, lunatic, lord” argument. At the surface it seems a compelling argument, but, alas, it falls apart in the end (it’s a false trichotomy, for one thing).
But this is not the place to discuss these books in length. I just wanted to point out that your baseless assumption that I was unread in apologetic writings was false and unfounded. From C.S. Lewis, William Lane Craig, & Ravi Zaccharias to St. Augustine, John Calvin, and even the entire Bible, my studies have far exceeded what your presumptuous reply supposes.
I am glad you have found some form of supposed happiness in hoping a better afterlife awaits you, but unlike you and the Amish in this article, I choose to not live my life in fear of some mythical being and instead enjoy it for what it is.

I’m sorry so many of you had bad experiences at churches that have now shaped your idea of what a Christian is and therefore who Christ is. Please look to Christ and His teachings to see who He is and don’t judge Him by people who were themselves mislead. It is so unfair. There are plenty of so called Christian churches out there who teach only judgement and damnation and it saddens me. The central message of the Bible is God’s love and the hope He gives. Jesus Himself had harsh words for the “religious” leaders of His day. He said that God doesn’t want us to mindlessly repeat prayers, or go through the motions. It is about our heart.
Several of you have made comments about me living in fear of God (or Satan, or Hell). Perfect love casts out all fear and Jesus is that perfect love. I do nothing out of fear of punishment, but out of love for my creator who could love me so much. Likewise, my happiness is not in my hope of a better afterlife. My happiness is in loving my Lord and living out His purpose in my life.
I’m guessing the last posting was from Infidel. You wrote that you, “just wanted to point out that your baseless assumption that I was unread in apologetic writings was false and unfounded.” I never said that you were unread in apologetic writings. I just figured you hadn’t read More Than A Carpenter. In the previous posting you had written, “Of course, I doubt any of McDowell’s books go into any detail on this, instead focusing on using dishonest writing and poor logic to reaffirm Christian’s beliefs in their own delusions.” So, my assumption that you hadn’t read McDowell’s More Than a Carpenter, was founded. Using the word doubt implies that you don’t know what you are about to write. Once again, you began put-downs and name calling when you don’t have a good reply as McDowell does not use dishonest writing or poor logic and he wasn’t trying to reaffirm anything as he didn’t believe in Christianity. Also, “liar, lunatic, lord” is the first part of the first chapter.

Amber:
I didn’t have a “bad experience” in the Methodist church I was raised in. It was a loving environment. I just couldn’t go for the teachings. No fire of brimstone, even in the southern state I lived in,where it is commom in some churches. My sisters are (as I mentioned above)devout, and fine examples of “Christian” people, and I love them dearly and they me. We get along fine, just don’t happen to agree on religion…one sister accepts my spirituality better than the other. But our love for each other as sisters and family isn’t affected at all.
Jesus probably lived, but as to his being the “only Son of God” is another whole ball game. He probably did think of himself as that, but aren’t all Christians supposed to be children of God? He was probably a great speaker, thus drew crowds and had a following, but as to the magical powers, I don’t think so. Unfortunately for Jesus, he angered the ruling powers, got caught and crucified, like all or many criminals in that time. The Bible was written to push the things Jesus was supposed to have said and done. It’s called advertising, promoting etc. Written a while after his died, and recopied by lots of folks….how accurate can that be? All of the copiers probably embellished the stories, and put their own spin on it. Otherwise, why all the contradictions? Inspired by god? What god? As I said before, to me it is another piece of literature…
The Amish take the Bible literally and have managed to live in this complicated world with that as their guide. That is not an easy feat. I admire it, but could never go along as a member of that community.

Amber, I don’t plan to read the books you proposed. I have far better things to do with my time. But if the arguments are so compelling why don’t you give the gist of one or two of them? Then, who knows, maybe I’ll feel a need to read one of the books. Or maybe I’ll show that the argument is nonsense.
But there are likely no more than three or four of us still reading this, so why don’t you wait till there’s another discussion of the existence of a Christian-type god. No doubt that won’t be too long. I doubt I’ll post any more to this article.
And please try to read more carefully. You accused at least two of us of being unable to answer a point and of “name-calling” when, in fact, we had answered those points and were not “name-calling”.

I wish I could avoid arguing with you, Amber, as you seem like a nice enough, genuine person. However, your repeated errors leave me little choice.
I’m perplexed as to the “name-calling” I did, or even the “put-downs”, and I clearly stated I didn’t feel it necessary to review a book in the comment section of an unrelated article. That being said, I consider it “dishonest writing” when an author repeatedly misquotes, misinterprets, or incorrectly cites another author (e.g. McDowell citing John A.T. Robinson’s “Redating the New Testament”) or omits obvious evidence and criticisms that counter their thesis (i.e. McDowell writes a chapter about Saul -> Paul and doesn’t mention or address the three contradictory accounts of the spoken voice). Poor logic is evidenced when McDowell makes conclusions about the historical basis of Christianity using the Bible but doesn’t discuss the accuracy of the Bible itself. And I clearly stated “to reaffirm Christian’s beliefs in their own delusions”, meaning the readers of the books and not McDowell himself. Lastly, it’s a non-sequitur to say “I doubt any of his books” means “I haven’t read book X”; rather, the intended meaning is that I haven’t read all of them.
While what you say about being a Christian out of love may to appear to you as otherwise, I think the core doctrine of fear is still at the basis:
Why do you love him? Because he “love[s] me so much”. How do you know he loves you? Because he sent his only son to die on the cross in your place. Why did his son have to die? To become the scapegoat for humanity’s punishment. Why was a punishment necessary? Because all have sinned. Against whom have we sinned? God. What is the punishment? Eternal separation from him.
Therefore, it would seem the end result of loving him is to avoid eternal punishment.
Bad experiences don’t shape my beliefs, a pursuit of truth does.

OK, this is another pinnacle is governmental silliness. Does anyone “Up There” realize there is no electricity on Amish farms? These chips are a useless intrusion and a thorough waste of everyone’s money and time. Theology, animal husbandry, and any other consideration aside – a simple walk up to the farm, or even just down their street/lane/path would tell that an electronic chip in a non-electric culture is nothing more than an expensive dog-tag.

Hi everyone! I am going to have to move on from posting here. My husband and I have been offered (and accepted) a position to be foster parents in a new home for teenage boys coming out of the local juvenile detention center. We have a lot to do to get the home opened and start accepting the boys – not the least of which is moving. Plus we have our home based graphic design & printing business and my real estate career to keep up with.
I’ve said about all I can in this media anyway. For those of you with further questions – I pray that people with very close, strong personal relationships with Christ will come into your life to help you find the answers. I am a huge advocate for asking questions. I had a teacher once (in sixth grade who was pelted by my questions all year) tell me it is the way to greatness and to never stop asking. I say the same to you. Please don’t be silenced by anyone who may come along and say you shouldn’t ask because you should have faith. Faith doesn’t have to be blind. I believe God encourages questions. He is big enough to handle our questions, fears, doubts, etc. His word says “seek and you will find” and “knock and the door will be opened”. If you are truly seeking the truth, you will find it. Pray and ask Him to show you the truth and reveal Himself to you. He will. He says that He stands at the door and knocks. My fervent prayer is that each of you would accept Him as your Savior and Lord. I hope that all of you will one day experience the awesome power of His transforming love in your life! I can only begin to tell you of how He has brought people in my family out of the death grip of drug and alcohol addictions and into a life filled with love and forgiveness, healing, and purpose. I hope to one day meet each of you in Heaven and hear your stories of the miracles He worked in your life!
If any of you are in Northern California. I recommend visiting Bayside Church in Granite Bay. They are a wonderful church! Ask for Jordanna (in Missions department) and then ask her how to get in touch with Dylan and Melissa. Dylan is my brother and they attend Church of the Harvest in Citrus Heights. He, Melissa, and Jordanna would all be good sources for info.
http://www.baysideonline.com/default.asp
In Southern California I recommend Rock Harbor Church
http://www.rockharbor.org/
If you are in NE Tennessee – try Celebration Church in Blountville.
http://www.celebrationchurch1.org/
I’ll try to check back here once in a while. Post a message if you visit one of those churches and let me know what you thought! Blessings to each of you!
With the Love of Christ,
Amber

jestrfyl:
Leave it to you to come up with a totally different point on this subject. I know I never thought about the lack of electricity! Duh!