Well, some progress. It is unfortunate that they are clinging to prejudice-supportive policies.
Peace!

Yes, John, another inch has been gained. They hope to educate and teach their members what? in the next two years. Organized religion, as a whole is very disappointing, at least in my husbands and my opinion. It is not following true Christianity in spirit or logic.

Henrietta22-
“Organized religion, as a whole is very disappointing, at least in my husbands and my opinion. It is not following true Christianity in spirit or logic.”
My husband and I think the same thing.
Peace!

What’s there to debate if you are following Christian standards that honor what Christ taught them there is no such thing as an non-celibate minister single minister homosexual or otherwise

Ah, not allowing something mainstream culture accepts just because it’s forbidden by the Bible. What would Martin Luther say?
God bless.

Further more to be a practicing homosexual is contrary to the teachings of the Christian faith and according to the Bible an offense to God. If one starts omitting parts of the Bible then they are following some other religion other then Christianity. The Bible warns of false doctrines and false prophets and for that matter homosexuality and other sins.

I know everybody’s shocked to see me weigh in on this one.
All I have to say at right now is that it appears that ELCA, a church in full communion with my Episcopal Church, is not prepared at this time to make de jure recognition of a well-known de facto truth: that there are zillions of wonderful GLBT pastors in the churches everywhere who are gifts of God’s grace to their parishes, the church as a whole, and the world.
At least now, bishops are permitted and encouraged to use discretion and wisdom, not blunt unthinking regulation, in deciding how to respond to their pastors in their charge. This is a big step forward.
The Spirit of God is moving in the church and in the world; the church is coming no longer to be an instrument of demonic hate and rejection. These growing pains are torturous, but they are growing pains: we are growing into the community of love to which Christ calls us.
DeaconScott

It is fortunate that many churches (but unfortunately not the Lutherans at this time) are realizing and accepting homosexual members and ministers into their “flocks”. Those churches have continued to be just fine, and haven’t turned into terrible houses of sin. An example for the Lutherans?
Guess the Lutherans will have to come into the 21st century at their next big meeting…how sad they couldn’t take care of business at this meeting. So much for “love thy neighbor”.

Correction: Should be “recognizing” and accepting, not realizing and accepting…

There is no question on my part that God loves everyone, without exception. There is also no question that sometimes we who are Bible believing Christians find it difficult to love people whose value systems are very much unlike ours. That is something all of us whose faith is in Christ struggle with. However, God’s love for all people does not mean He accepts them as they are. I do not believe the Bible teaches that God’s love is neutral as to what people do or how they live their lives. I believe God loves people, starts with them where they are, and then seeks to enable them to become what He wants them to be. That will mean change. It will mean departing from some things God says are wrong and coming to accept the things He says are right. But it is God Who changes us. All it requires on ou part is faith. And, yes, He is working to change those of us who still struggle with loving people the way God does. But we all must understand that love does not mean accepting those things that are contrary to God’s plan for us.

“I believe God loves people, starts with them where they are, and then seeks to enable them to become what He wants them to be. That will mean change. It will mean departing from some things God says are wrong and coming to accept the things He says are right. But it is God Who changes us. All it requires on ou part is faith. And, yes, He is working to change those of us who still struggle with loving people the way God does. But we all must understand that love does not mean accepting those things that are contrary to God’s plan for us.”
I agree with you!
I love all people even those who support prejudice and discrimination. However, I can not support their prejudice and discrimination. The ELCA is now struggling with their long traditions of prejudice and discrimination. I know that as long as they really pray for God’s will, God will see them through this. We are all capable of following Christ. However, to do so we must be willing to do so.
Peace!
Peace!

since the bible says same sex intimate relationships are not the will of god ( read romans or in revelation to name only a couple ) if a church allows or endorces the practice the church is no longer of god but becomes an apostate church having the outward appearance of god but not the true spirit and must be left by all true christians.

A toast for all the DISorganized Churches!
We are the Untied Church of Christ, which is part of our strength and joy. Henriette, Pagansister, JohnQ and all of you who feel like you have to brush your teeth after visiting an “organized” church, I would sure be glad to have you in our congregation!! Too much organization makes me itch and Institutions give me a rash!
Sure some of our congregations and pastors are as conservative as many others. But we also include a strong, dynamic, and vocal liberal contingent. Our congregations that have taken and made real the Open and Affirming position seem to not only be doing well, they are thriving. I would like someday to guide my congregation down that same road, but not for a while yet.
Joey, you asked what Marty Luther would say. Well he also insisted, contrary to his contemporary Bishop Copernicus’ teaching, the earth is the center of the universe. So I am not sure he would be ready for that much advancement.
DeaconScott, it is all well and good that you can use French and Latin, but in the interest of clarity, keep it in “Ah-Mari-kan”! Yes the wheels of change are grinding a bit, but change is happening noetheless.
CKnuck – where did Jesus say anything about celibacy? Love-plenty, celibacy – silence.
Insisting that a homosexual be celibate but a heterosexual does not is simply foolish. There is more to sexual orientation that intimat, physical contact. It is as much an affectional concern. How many heterosexuals are sexually inactive, yet still proclaim their orientation as just one component of their identity. That same aspect is true for homosexuals, that their affectional orientation is but a component of their character. All of this “bedroom” chatter is sounding more like gossip – which Paul most clearly decried – and less like genuine theological discourse.

Jim Bakker should have been a Lutheran. He’d be the richest man in America and because of a better life and top-flight health-care Tammy might still be with us, too.
Why not allow practicing con-men, rapists who prowl, burglers who daily plan their nightly forays and upstanding folks of every trade be Lutheran pastors? Why not? Why not just admit none of us are perfect and so we might as well learn from the best? Besides, a tolerant denomination won’t need the Gospel, so they can just eliminate that stumbling block, and operate much more efficiently in society. It’s a win-win situation!

What always captures my attention about the passage in Romans where Paul condems homosexuality is that it falls right in the middle of a whole bunch of other sins. Not having the book in front of me, I can’t cite chapter & verse or recite the whole range of activities he condems, but it’s there. He doesn’t call homosexuality out specially; it’s no worse than any other thing he cites there. So why does any church that refuses to ordain open & non-celibate gays/lesbians as clergy not play morality police with the rest of its clergy, and make sure they aren’t committing adultery, gluttony, thievery or any other trespass and then refuse to ordain them? Maybe the heterosexual minister is actually a glutton who doesn’t honor his spouse and cheats with random women. Should he be dismissed?
Also, remember that Paul was writing an epistle to the Romans, during the reign of the first dynasty of Caesars, when homosexuality had the same connotation as it does in say, India today- it was purely “recreational” sex, accepted as something that happened between men but that did not replace pro-creative male/female sex. In Rome, it was the equivalent of getting drunk and having a one night stand. Homosexuals in committed, monogomous relationships are of a different nature entirely. At least in my opinion, the passage in romans does not apply to these relationships, and should not be quoted against them.

Mark, several of the people you mention have found jobs as highly placed Republican officials of our government.

So why does any church that refuses to ordain open & non-celibate gays/lesbians as clergy not play morality police with the rest of its clergy, and make sure they aren’t committing adultery, gluttony, thievery or any other trespass and then refuse to ordain them? Maybe the heterosexual minister is actually a glutton who doesn’t honor his spouse and cheats with random women. Should he be dismissed?
I am not sure what churches you have experienced.. but I do hope that they hold their pastors accountable. A benefit of organized religion is that it allows for an accountability structure to occur for the heads of congregations.
If a pastor openly sins repeatedly and does not show remorse or signs of repentance, he should lose his job. Pastors are especially held at a higher standard in the church, or at least I would hope so.
Here is the verses in Romans I have seen referenced above.
Romans 1
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

Jestrfyl: I have no doubt that I’d feel comfortable in your congregation. It sounds much like (and this is a compliment) the UU churches I have belonged to.
W.C.:
Are you saying that your god will love you, and start to work with you etc. but in order for him/her to love you fully, you must change to his/her version of “right”? Thus a homosexual must go against his/her natural feelings of love, physical and emotional etc. and “become” heterosexual in order for your god to love him/her. That wouldn’t work for me personally. My god would be one who would accept an individual as they are naturally. Loving relationships are not confined to male/female only. I have 2 sets of friends who have been in single sex relationsips, one for 25 years, and one for 15. They are committed to each other just like my husband and I have been to each other for the last 42 1/2 years. I can’t understand how my friends are wrong in the eyes of a god.

The passages quoted above have far more to do with idol (and idle) worship than sexual relations. As it reads, and in accordance with paul’s way of thinking, idol worship CAUSES this sort of behavior – not the other way around. It is a continuing condemnation of the Roman and “pagan” practices. This ought not be confused with out more modern and sophisticated understanding of sexual orientation!

Since when did human opinion outrank God’s Word? This is a clever little victory on the side of the enemy, but ultimately truth & righteousness will be blessed by God and not willful lust and disobedience. People wake up!

Who said that God said that being homosexual is evil ? I can see how one would say that it seems unnatural since by nature humans seek male/female bonding to procreate but where is it said out right point blank that homosexuality is evil ? It is judgment that is evil for God is the one who should sit in judgment not us . It is the evil of christianity to think otherwise and to imply that any individual’s interpretation of the Bible or any other scripture should dictate how another child of God should live in love and spirit. We should not condemn others for their natural choice of love. We may not understand them, but then that may not be for us to understand just as other life issues like death and birth are not for us to completely understand. I think that getting one’s head out of one’s own judgmental ass is in order. My husband and I agree on this 100%. May the Lord be with you all.
~Rev.Stazia DeVine

Now I am confused, because as I remember, David was a man loved by God and what was he if not full of wilfull lust?
As to opinion, if Christ was fully human as well as fully God, was his opinion human or godly? If Godly, why would not Christ’s lack of saying anything about homosexuality not outweigh Paul’s fully human opinions of it?

Joe Lane:
“Since when did human opinion outrank God’s Word?” First, one must believe in that god….and there are many humans who don’t. Many of those humans are bright,compassionate, loving, caring human beings and are living lives not controlled by a god. So who would that enemy be?
In the context of your post, I expect you think that the homosexual community is at least part of the “enemy”.
So, to answer your question of when humans outrank God’s Word? Anytime they want. Oh, and I HAVE been awake for a very long time.
All hunan being are due equal rights, and it is unfortunate that some are still discriminated against by laws and churches because of the person they are in love with.

Here’s the rest of the passage in Romans, whereas the previous poster stops at verse 27, after the homsexual bit, taking it out of context.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
[27] And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful
NOw maybe this can be read as saying that all of these other sins came on as a result of “indecent” and “unatural” acts between the same sex being accepted, but I’m pretty sure that most of them were pretty common even in societies where homosexuality was deemed a crime. So I don’t buy that argument.

I’m not exactly sure how to say what I want to say, so I hope and pray it will come to me as I type.
I don’t hate anybody. At the very least, I try my best, with God’s help, not to. God does love us all without reservation or condition, as has been stated by other people earlier. I’ve eaten and drank with gay people, and my wife has also counted several gay people as friends over the years. I don’t revile them or treat them as the lepers or Samaritans of biblical days, or anything like that.
I’ve been exposed repetedly to both sides of this argument over the validity of homosexuality. I’ve tried not to go into this rashly or without a great deal of prayer, Bible study, and thought. I know there are plenty of things I can be judged on too, so I don’t want to try to come across as ultra-righteous or “holier than thou.” But when it comes down to it, I can’t accept the lifestyle as a natural expression of God’s design. Let me clarify. I accept homosexual people as creations of God and people whom the Lord loves more than I can comprehend. Jesus died for them too. It’s the lifestyle, the choice, that I cannot accept. And I don’t say that with any smugness or any pleasure.
As for the “natural” thing, I have a couple of concerns. First, there are many things that contradict the word of God that we are inclined to do “naturally.” Our sinful natures can be thanked for that. No one has to teach a child how to disobey a parent or how to do other things that are wrong. The sin that is within us makes it “natural” for us. “Natural” is not always equivalent to “right.” Secondly, and I would really appreciate it if someone could give me a good answer to this: How is homosexuality natural? Does it have any purpose in nature. Does it contribute to the natural order? I honestly don’t know, and I would like an answer to that.
I agree with WC in that God’s love is unconditional, but he doesn’t leave us where we started at. In every one-on-one encounter Jesus had in the scriptures, as far as I can tell, he never left the person the same way. He never said, “Okay, whatever you want to do is fine.” When Jesus encountered people, he never validated sin. He valued the sinner. He loved them, but that love never meant a blanket acceptance for all their actions. “Go and sin no more” seems to sum that up for me. That statement does not in any way tell me that Jesus didn’t love sinful people fully. It tells me that he loved them enough to tell them not to participate in activities that would cause them to separate themselves from a holy God.
I know that as soon as this is posted and read, people will probably be poking holes in these arguments left and right, but I hope this helps people who are sympathetic to homosexuality being a sanctified lifestyle in the eyes of God to know why some of us on the other side of the coin feel the way we do. There are hateful people out there who hate just for the sake of hating, and they will receive their reward. But there are those of us out there who try to love everyone and show Christ’s love to everyone who, prayerfully and thoughtfully, have to say that this is where the line is drawn for us. I don’t want to hurt anyone or offend anyone; I just can’t say that this is right.
One final thought (I know I’m prattling on here…people probably think I’m writing a novel or something)…if God was totally accepting of everything, that everything was “right” if that person believed it was right, why did Jesus have to die?
Peace be with you all.

Justaguy
If you thnk your questions are long, imagine the length of the answers. To one question, toward the end I have this thought – “homosexuality” apparently does occur in nature. Not simply the physical acts, but the bonding and affection that individuals can share. This is certainly true in elephants, swans and several other species. Now, I just wish I could point you to a source – sadly my memory has slipped here and neither author nor titles come to mind. There is one source on sawns, a whole study of their character and relationships. Help,anyone? Konrad Lorenz comes to mind, but I am not confident that it is he.
I share your thoughts that a relationship with God changes people. Usually it makes them more authentically themselves. This means that some folks who have live decades in hetero – relationships suddenly acknowledge their own homosexuality. It can be startling and difficult. The same may be true in reverse as well (hence some of the successes in groups like “Exodus”). So the question becomes for all of us, each day, are we living up to the image in which we were created? Now THAT will open a debate for the ages!
OK that’s a couple of responses. You will find there is a whole bunch of folks here willing to add a wide range of thought. So find that one that speaks to your Spirit – as in makes you catch your breath, then breathe easier.

Okay, we are all condemning what we consider to be the sin of another. The difference is; Christians have only invisible proof, vis a vis faith. Pagans are blind, as far as faith informs the Christian – from the vantage point of light. Christians are mindless, as far as the Pagan can see. But I understand faith and no one can know the content of faith without first embracing faith. A very fitting illustration would simply state that no individual can know exactly what it means to be any other individual, it is impossible. This is typical when worldviews clash. The question remaining is; how does a pagan know what is right? Is it a feeling? Did you read it in some obscure book? Did you dream it? Did your yoga teacher tell you? Even more, what if the things you decided to be right all turn out to be wrong – a frequent challenge you make to Christians? Where will you turn? I am not saying Pagans cannot know truth, because you certainly do, but because you don’t recognize or even understand the source, there is no where to turn when the truth you do know fails because of inconsistency, misunderstanding, having been mislead, etc. There is only one source of truth, and if you embrace faith, in the very first moments you will see that.

haha.

NOw maybe this can be read as saying that all of these other sins came on as a result of “indecent” and “unatural” acts between the same sex being accepted, but I’m pretty sure that most of them were pretty common even in societies where homosexuality was deemed a crime. So I don’t buy that argument.
KLBA, sorry I did not continue to post the rest of the chapter. I hope everyone who does gain opinions based on scripture gains as much context as possible when doing so.
This may help.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201&version=31
I never made an assessment as far as what I believe this scripture teaches. You read and interpreted it as disapproval of homosexuality yourself. This is completely understandable since it specifically refers to homosexuality as sexual impurity.

Thank you, justaguy. I think you wrote eloquently.

Dennis:
Having been raised in a “Christian” denomination, I have read the bible and I totally disagree with your pronouncements. However I had too many questions about the book…it was written by human beings and is very contradictory. Great piece of lit. but not to base my whole life on. You are entitled to your ideas and I to mine. I’d have to believe in your god to worry about incurring his/her rath. I don’t believe, thus no worries.
Your god seems very unloving, IMO.

justaguy:
I think you expressed yourself very well and I believe that you don’t hate anyone.
I do disagree with you that people have sinful natures…that we are born with “sin”. Also, you mentioned that you wondered how homosexuals were contributing to nature….or where they were in the natural order of things. Do they have to have a purpose? Love and affection between 2 people is a contribution to the world. Does it really matter if they are the same gender? Not to me, but it obviously does to you. I respect that, even if I don’t agree.

I love the west coast, it’s good to be back but I haven’t set up all of my computers yet. If people are not of a sinful nature then how can so many go hungry while others thrive. People are sinful and the result of sin is morality gone wild. Homosexuality is a sin and has no natural purpose. It is human nature to try to make things appropriate even when they are not. If one thinks God is nuetral then they have not been paying attention. He’s not a anything goes God.

Thank you all for listening to my concerns. I appreciate the fact that even when people have disagreed with me, that they have been respectful of my beliefs and opinions. In this day and age, that can be hard to come by.
I agree with you, pagansister, in that love is a contribution to the world. We need more platonic love out there. Love is a power that, when fully utilized, can lower guns, feed hungry mouths, and wipe away bitter tears. I believe, though, you are talking about sexual love, which is the ultimate culmination and expression of love between two people. I agree it is a beautiful thing. And you may be right; love may need not serve any objective purpose in this world. That’s something we may not fully realize this side of eternity. I suppose that my question regarding homosexuality’s contribution to nature simply (and perhaps harshly, coldly, I don’t know) goes back to procreation. Part of that ultinate expression of love and affection between two people covenanted together, to me, is the creation of a life, taken from both people and mingled together into something unique and wonderful. Don’t get me wrong. I am a strong proponent of adoption and believe that is no less valid of an expression of family. My wife and I have even considered adoption ourselves and would be willing to do it, should the opportunity and the means arise. I just know that form of expression of love isn’t possible in a homosexual relationship, alternate forms of procration aside. I’m sure that may sound like a narrow vision of love, and even as I say all that, I know there is more to love that procreation. Like I said, there may be answers to this we may never find on this earth.
As for the “sin” thing, if you don’t believe in a God who has laws for governing the universe, of course there would not be any “sin.” You can’t break a law if there is no law. Unfortunately, not believing in something does not cause it to cease to exist. There is a great deal of power in the mind, I will grant you that, but we cannot kill God by not believing in him. Some things are objectively real, regardless of whether we believe it or not, and I do believe that God is the ultimate expression of the real, even more than this chair I’m sitting on or this keyboard I’m typing on. Not believing in the wind does not stop it from going through your hair (unless you’re bald, which I must confess I’m becoming more and more each day *sigh*). And if you don’t mind my asking, pagansister, and I’m honestly not trying to mock you or deride you when I ask this, but if you don’t believe in God, if you don’t believe in “sin,” is there an objective moral compass in this world, in your opinion? Is there anything that is objectively “right” and objectively “wrong”, no matter how many people believe to the contrary?
Okay, time to end volume 2…wow, I guess this discussion has kind of moved beyond Lutheran church policies, huh? Whew…big topics…

By the way, pagansister (and I also say this to anyone who shares similar views as you), I just want to make sure you know I’m not trying to attack you or say you’re crazy for believing as you do or anything when I asked those questions earlier. The reason why I asked that is just because since our world views are different in that I believe in God and you don’t (am I getting that right, by the way? I just gathered that based on what you wrote earlier), it’s hard for me to see the world from your point of view. I was just curious as to how you see those things. I hope I didn’t offend you in any way, and if there was any offense, I sincerely apologize.

justaguy-
It is refreshing to read such thoughtful posts by someone with your opinions and thoughts. Unfortunately, some people approach this issue seemingly forgetting that people on the other side of the issue are also God’s children.
I believe I understand you beliefs. As a Christian, I do not agree with some of them…but, I know that many people think as you do.
As far as “the lifestyle”, let me describe my gay lifestyle. After several years of building a career in the hospitality industry, last December, I left to become a stay-at-home father for two wonderful children that are the product of two heterosexuals that had the love to create them and their six siblings…but, not the focus or devotion to care for any of them.
So, my gay lifestyle consists of being a stay-at-home dad, being a good partner, cleaning the house, tending the garden, paying taxes and lots of other bills, attending and being active in church, volunteering some time to mentor a youth in state care, assisting neighbors and friends, shopping for groceries, washing loads of dirty cloths, etc. There is some sort of myth that all or most gay people’s lives all consists of nothing but sex. I have nothing against sex…in fact I find it very, very enjoyable…but, that is not the focus of my life. Nor, is it the focus of most lgbt people I know.
Peace!

justaguy:
Read your long and thoughtful “Vol.2″ and at the moment I haven’t got time to answer your questions. I do realize that you’re not mocking me and I am totally NOT offended and don’t feel attacked in any way. To be honest, it is hard to put into words some of my beliefs. I will have to ponder how to do that.
JohnQ:
Good post explaining your “everyday” life. Many heterosexuals think that “sex” is the only part of a same gender relationship. You sound happy with your family. I’m glad.
Now if rest of the world (Lutherans etc) could just “get with the program” that we are all equal in this world!!!

Thank you, JohnQ, for reminding me that I cannot sum up a person based on one aspect of that person’s life. That is one thing that I wish people who share my opinions (and those who don’t) would remember. Lord knows I’ve been guilty of doing that. I’ve even encountered people and groups who even go so far as to villify all homosexuals. I’ve also encountered people and groups who do the same thing to those who believe as I do. We can’t do that. I don’t agree with that aspect of a person’s life, but I can’t treat that person like a pariah, or as something less than human. All I can do is love people as I believe Christ loves them and, if they ask me about what I believe about homosexuality, to tell them honestly, but lovingly and compassionately, what I believe, just as I would hope others would do to me, no matter what they believe.
Thanks again for the reminder, JohnQ. May peace also be with you.

justaguy,
I hear your struggle, but please realize – IT AIN’T A “LIFESTYLE”! Gay people have LIVES. A lifestyle is whether you go to the disco evey Saturday night ’til dawn. A life is whether or not you get to keep your children in Alabama.
Nor is it a “choice”. One either IS or is NOT gay. When did YOU “choose” to be heterosexual??? Would YOU choose to be homosexual, knowing full well the discrimination you would face in society today? I mean, was there an ‘options day’ where you got to choose? This is just downright silly.
“It’s the lifestyle, the choice, that I cannot accept.”
“As for the “natural” thing, I have a couple of concerns. … I would really appreciate it if someone could give me a good answer to this: How is homosexuality natural? Does it have any purpose in nature.”
It is natural because it occurs in nature. (Look it up.) Just like left-handedness or greeneyes. What “purpose” does left-handedness have in nature? My Catholic friends told me they were frequently beaten for using their left hands in Catholic schools – one had ALL of the bones in his left hand broken by a nun.
I think you are asking the wrong questions.

M S Zuelke,
Your post is rather insulting, specifically to Pagans. I’m sure pagansister will have a few words for you (if she hasn’t posted them already), but…
“Pagans are blind”
Etc.
“as far as faith informs the Christian”
Faith does NOT “inform” the Christian”. It may inspire them, but information comes from facts, not faith.
“Christians are mindless, as far as the Pagan can see.”
I think Pagansister will disagree with you on this.
“how does a pagan know what is right?”
How does ANYone know what is right? Not all Christians do. They certainly don’t always act accordingly.
“Is it a feeling? Did you read it in some obscure book? Did you dream it? Did your yoga teacher tell you?”
You’re pretty condescending.
“Even more, what if the things you decided to be right all turn out to be wrong – a frequent challenge you make to Christians?”
Well, what IF all the things Christians believe to be right turn out to be not so? Where will THEY turn?
“I am not saying Pagans cannot know truth”
It just comes across that way.
“there is no where to turn when the truth you do know fails because of inconsistency, misunderstanding, having been mislead, etc.”
More condescention. First, what makes you think their truths WILL fail? Secondly, there’s a LOT of “inconsistency, misunderstanding, having been mislead” in many Christian churches. Your poit?
“There is only one source of truth”
Sez you.
“and if you embrace faith, in the very first moments you will see that.”
Oh?

ck,
“If people are not of a sinful nature then how can so many go hungry while others thrive.”
Maybe because so many “christian” “churches” are spending so much of their resources condemning gay people that they have nothing left to feed the hungry with. But that’s just my guess.
“Homosexuality is a sin”
That’s you opinion, and not much else.
“and has no natural purpose”
Like left-handedness you mean? Or is love, or creating lving relationships not a worthy enough purpose in your opinion?
“It is human nature to try to make things appropriate even when they are not.”
What’s “appropriateness got to do with anything?
“He’s not a anything goes God.”
And loving, committed relationships are not “anything goes” either.

justaguy,
“I suppose that my question regarding homosexuality’s contribution to nature simply (and perhaps harshly, coldly, I don’t know) goes back to procreation.”
It always does. And it is irrelevant to the discussion.
“Part of that ultinate expression of love and affection between two people covenanted together, to me, is the creation of a life…”
Perhaps, but only, as you said, “part” of the expression of love. Not always (not even with heterosexuals), and not even with ALL heterosexuals. One of my 3 sisters never had children in either of her 2 marriages. My nephew and his wife do not intend to procreate. My parents’ best friends didn’t either. Procreation is NOT a requirement of marriage, or of a person’s life. It is irrelevant to whether or not God’s gay and lesbian children deserve equal treatment before the law!
“I just know that form of expression of love isn’t possible in a homosexual relationship”
So what? It is not NECESSARY in the expression of love.

Thanks to everyone who commented on what I had to say. It’s nice to get some feedback and to get the chance to view these issues from another perspective. I know I still have a lot to learn; shoot, I haven’t even reached my 30th birthday yet – I know I’ve got a lot to learn! I know everyone’s comments have given me a lot to think about, as I hope there may have been something I’ve said that’s given other people a chance to think as to why they believe what they believe. In any case, I hope that this discussion can go on, and that we can share ideas lovingly and with a willingness to listen. Anyway, I guess this post isn’t really saying anything new, so I’ll be off…

“So what? [procreation]is not NECESSARY in the expression of love.”
Point proven.
Love is an unconditional commitment, which Christianity says is defined by God through the death of Christ for all of man’s sins.
Can a gay couple exhibit the type of unconditional love that Christ defines? Absolutely.
Can we as humans define exactly what is “natural” in the universe? Absolutely not. The only way we can determine whether something inside a system is natural is if we ourselves made the system.
Christians turn to the authority of the Word of God which they believe has been handed down for centuries, inspired by God.
If there is to be a true debate about whether a pastor can preside it should be addressed with authoritative scripture alone, no matter the offense.

Mystery writer:
Nice Post today at 1:37 today (15Aug). I thought I had answered some of MSZ’s statements on another post….were similar in message.
This is a post about Lutheran’s and their lack of understanding or acceptance of homosexuals. We’re way off topic.

M.S.Zuelke:
There were a number of assumptions made in your last post, about Pagans. Have you ever read any information on Pagans? I don’t think so from your questions. I obviously can’t speak for all who share my beliefs.
First, let me say that I certainly don’t think Christians are mindless! Why would I? I’d have to consider my 2 younger sisters mindless and they certainly aren’t. Both are very intelligent women. They are very devout Christians. Some of my best friends are Christians…really wrong assumption.
How do Pagans know what is right? I could ask you the same thing. Your answers would be based on your experiences and so would mine…liked your choices..feelings, yoga teacher????, some “obscure” book, and my favorite…did I dream it! What would be wrong with any of those choices? Who really knows what is right? (as was asked in a previous post).
If my beliefs turn out to be wrong, and yours turn out to be wrong, where would I turn? Family comes to mind for me. You?
If you are thinking of an “afterlife”…no one has proven to me that there is more than this….I’ll certainly take this.
As to the topic at hand, Lutherans and gay ministers. If I remember correctly, you are not accepting of homosexual ministers, or I guess homosexuality, at all, as it goes against your truth…and concept of right. Pagans (IMO)have no problem with accepting human beings as they are. As I have probably made clear above and in other posts, I do not consider homosexuality “bad”. It certainly isn’t a choice…who would choose to be discriminated against?? So, my faith and your faith don’t agree on this issue either.

Truth exists. Proof of truth is the fact that we can communicate. Proof of truth is reproducible science. Proof of truth is the justice system. Proof of truth is also faith. Proof of truth is the totality of the universe – it is what it is and nothing else. Everything that exists is truth because it cannot be something else. You act in faith every time your stoplight turns green and you proceed, every time you cross a bridge in your car, every time you pop open a cold one and drink it down. Nothing is certain, not the bridge holding your car, not the speeding guy stopping for his red light, not the purity of your drink – nothing. Faith is based upon something or no one would function – no driving, no eating out at fast food restaurants or running through a thunderstorm. If you step outside, lightning might strike, so stay inside. Faith represents a substantial evidence, that usually there is no poison in that cold one you gulp down, faith that the bridge has held up for a while and it has been inspected (nowadays they need to post the rating, don’t they?), faith that most people don’t die by drive by lightning strikes, at least not in your area. You know what I mean. Faith exists and it has it’s reasons.
I am a person with faith in God and I have my reasons, there is no disputing that, you will agree. What I have come to tell you is that this faith is based upon something good and true, but you disagree. The only evidence I can share with you is to simply tell you – it is true. You can say no it’s not, but you would be unreasonable. So, if you think you would like to try a reasonable way to prove what I am saying is false, there is only one way to find out, because why would you look at your neighbors house to see if your roof needs repair – honestly and skeptically take a look for the object of my faith. Heres how; shout-out into the universe, in any direction, at any time; “Mark says God exists, so show me”.

MSZ:
Your definition of truth and it’s examples are on VISIBLE things…communication, science,justice system etc. Everything exists because it can’t be something else…right. Nothing is certain,right.
Life proves that…everyday.
You use the word “faith” as in faith that the bridge won’t fall, the food isn’t poisoned (usually), faith that you probably won’t be struck by lightning and say that no one could/would function without it. In the above context I would use the word “trust”. I trust the bridge won’t fall, the guy in the next car won’t hit me, the food isn’t poisoned etc. Matter of words.
I primarily use the word “faith” in reference to religion(s). Your faith is based on something “good and true.” All you can do is tell me that it is true. ” You can say no but you would be unreasonable.”
Guess that makes me unreasonable. 62 years hasn’t, 17 of them raised in a Christian household, and 2 very devout sisters and I’m still not “reasonable”. It works for you, and I’m glad. It works for my sisters, and thats fine. My spirituality isn’t based on a single being. That works for me.
After all this, homosexuals should be allowed to be ministers and lead their lives with the person they love, with equal rights like hetersexuals. Your convinced otherwise as it goes against your “faith”. What I believe in disagrees.

OOPS: Correction (it’s late): 62 years, 17 of them raised etc. delete word “hasn’t.