If I were this reporter I would have made sure to get an interview with Bishop Robinson. It certainly seems to be a an openhanded slap in his face. I get very weary of ecclesiologists stamping their feet, threatening to hold their breathe, and insisting they have things their own way. If these folks are the best the Church has to offer, it is sure confirmation why a whole lot of people find The Church (Universal & Apostolic or not!) silly, useless, and irrelevant. All this talk of purity and righteousness is pablum and re-digested muck. It is clear that no one wants to grow up and deal with anything new, challenging, or hopeful. I am disgusted – but not in the least surprised – by the whole thing. Glad I am not, nor have ever been, a Picolopian.

It makes me very sad that this is even going on. The main reason I love the Episcopal Church is the fact that we are allowed to interpret the Scriptures as we feel they are speaking to us. Jesus never once mentions homosexuality, so how are we to know whether He condems it or not ? It IS condemned in the Old Testament, but so are a lot of things that are ignored in present times, like stoning adulterers and being unclean after childbirth. I think the Church has bigger fish to fry than worrying about “boys kissing”. Why don’t we concentrate on the hungry, the naked and the poor, as Jesus instructed us to do ? Let God worry about it. He’s going to be up all night, anyway.

Henrietta, I apologise for doing this without your permission beforehand, but it seems a most apropriate place. The other spot it was posted on was old, on a differetn topic, and I thought no one would see it. Jestr
Just read on line that the American E. said they would show restraint in blessing new Gay Bishops, and would not give special prayers for gay unions. Religion is great, but organized Religion is sadly lacking, it seems. Best to practise it at home, and join another club.
Posted by: Henrietta22 | September 26, 2007 9:40 AM
Henrietta
In all honesty, out of our frustration with over-organized religion my wife and I are seriously considering joing the local Parrothead Club. They accomplish more and have a far better time doing it than any church I’ve ever heard of – including the churches I serve(d). As long-time Parrotheads – we get to go see Brother Buffett on Nov 1(All Saints day & my birthday) – this seems to be an excellent way to work through our need for spiritual uplift (beer and song – you can’t go wrong) and good works. But as Jimmy says, “there is a thin line between Saturday Night and Sunday morning” – and it is while skating that thin line that I get my sermons written.
(Of course, he also wrote “My heads hurts, my feet stink, and I don’t love Jesus”, but we won’t be singing that in our congregation any time soon)

“They’re hiding behind language that’s parsed and insulting.”
I disagree; I do think they’re at least trying to form a compromise, and I must admit I’m pleasantly surprised by their willingness. However, I still don’t think this will work out; without a full, clear ban, soon there will be a new gay bishop appointed, and this dilemma will start up again. I doubt the trouble will end any time soon.
God bless.

My prayers are with the Anglican Communion, and I hope that people on both sides of this issue look to Christ to know what is the right thing to do.

Thanks Jestr, I posted that as I was going out the front door, and just came back through it. We’d go with you to the “Parrotheads” if you weren’t so far away!
I’ve thought about this through my day, and at this rate I’ll never be an Episcopalian again or anything else that won’t treat the glbt with the same respect, and acceptance that we are extended. To the gay people I’d like to say I’m sorry, I really thought that love and good sense would win over tradition and no sense. Another thing to remember is a Church is a building, the pastor is as good as his love will allow him to be, and in the end it’s your understanding and love for Christ, and all people, that makes you a Christian not what they think about you as people. God Bless.

Need I say anything? It looks like people realize what is right and what is wrong. Homosexual church leadership is promoting is just wrong. It’s good to see this situation move on in the right direction. Love for Christ means making a stand and in a gentle way establish what is right so few people know what is right these days, everything is acceptable to many.

cknuck-
This whole story is a big nothing.
The bishops did nothing but repeat the response they had given previously.
There is nothing in the response that says there will not be more gay or lesbian bishops. There is nothing that says the Episcopal Church will not continue to do masses blessing same-gender couples commitments to each other.
There is nothing that says that currently serving gay and lesbian bishops will be asked to resign.
This story is a big nothing.
Peace!

There really wasn’t much else the bishops could do: most the of the changes demanded by the foreign Primates require changes to the Constitution & Canons of the Episcopal Church. The House of Bishops cannot change them: it requires General Convention (in the case of Contitutional changes, 2 consecutive General Conventions) which meets every 3 years.
Also, many of the demands required submittal to an international tribunal of Primates. This is a shocking innovation in the Anglican Communion, which is a voluntary association of churches descended from the Church of England. This kind of juridical power across national boundaries has not existed since the member churches became independent from the Church of England, the American Church being the first. Even the conservative bishops in the USA oppose this, having never had that kind of authority imposed on them before (even our Presiding Bishop is a First Among Equals, not a hierarch, just the one who runs the place in between meetings and bangs the gavel at the meetings).
Finally, “manner of life” is a highly disturbing phrase: being FEMALE is a manner of life disturbing to many, including the Archbishop of Sydney, Australia, and most of the African and Southern Cone primates. Gene Robinson was consecrated in 2003, but it wasn’t until Katherine Jefferts Schori became Presiding Bishop that schism became the word of the day. It’s going to be a rocky time.

Second only to “The check is in the mail”, the other great hiding place for our society is, “We can’t deal with this until we get the paperwork”. We hide behind paperwork – in whatever form it takes – in order to stall, to keep from doing things, or as a way to say no without actually saying “NO”. It is a dodge of questionable honesty and variable integrity. But if it makes everyone feel better, I suppose it serves some limited purpose.
I must confess that (as a very visual thinker) your phrase, “an International Tribunal of Primates” conjures up a chimpanzee, and spider monkey, and a gorilla, all in clerical garb, sitting ON a bench wacking everything in sight with gavels. It is neither complementary nor accurate, but it is product of the vagaries of multiple definitions to one word.

LOL, yes, “international tribunal of primates” does give the appearance of a chimpanzee court, and frequently the behavior of the mitered bunch is similar to a bunch of simians fighting over their bananas, but what can I do, that is the term for it.
Dismissing this as we didn’t get the paperwork does miss the point of my post, however: the various Archbishops and Councils are demanding a grave, shocking, change in canon and Constitutional law, absolutely unprecedented in the Anglican churches. Imagine if the the European Union demanded that the US Senate add an amendment to the Constitution requiring recognition of gay marriage. Further, the European Parliament demanded the right to oversee all future laws and political appointments. The USA Senate would be unable to comply (even if they should want to, which they wouldn’t): the Senate lacks the ability to make those changes, let alone the problems in American politics, society, and law to put such changes into effect. What the foreign primates are demanding of the US House of Bishops amounts to exactly the same thing. It’s outrageous, and even those in the American Church who oppose the ordination of women and gay men are not willing to make such a concession.
Further, most of the Anglican churches are hierarchical organizations, run by their Archbishop or Primate, in striking contrast to the American church, where laity have voice and vote, both locally and nationally. Even in England, the bishops are chosen by Prime Minister (who may not even be a member of the Church of England) and parliament, with a rubber-stamp from the Queen, and suggestions from the diocese affected. In many provinces of the Anglican Communion, the candidates for bishop are selected by the already consecrated, and once a man (and I do mean man) becomes a bishop, he is a pontiff in his diocese, and if Archbishop, answers to no one but God (who sadly frequently remains silent) and runs the province as a private fieff. It is, and will remain, a mess, because of the many different worldviews, ecclesial and political processes.

My ancestors in faith were well acquainted with all the problems heriarchy cause. For that reason I serve a United (or Untied) Church of Christ congregation. So any problems we cause are our own, alone. The heirarchy is simply there to stir the pot. I wish the ‘Picolopians of the world Good Luck! Let loose the Ecclesiastical Simians on a few dozen keyboards and lets see if they cranky our either a new Church Constitution or another Shakepaerean sonnet!

What a sad set of events! This was a church that I thought was making progress, but it seems that I was wrong. This isn’t isn’t progress at all.

pagansister -
It’s not good, but it’s not as bad as that. We’re taking a minute to let our brothers and sisters catch up. We haven’t backed down from anything.

DS
“We haven’t backed down from anything.” Does this mean that you are for equality for all…and approve of same gender unions, and homosexual priests etc.? That would be good, and hopefully the others will catch up.

DS and Pagansister (good to have you back) I think that why all of us that are for equality and justice for our glbt friends and relatives, feel so let down with the outcome of the latest Episcopalian decisions is because we thought that the dance of “one step forward would not end up being one step backward” again, as with all the other Mainline Denominations. The waiting for brothers and sisters has gone on for years and years….The excuse is inexcusable.

H22:
Believe me when I tell you that it is good to be back! Computer problems.
Wish there hadn’t been a step backward at all. Do you think this will eventually lead to a split in the denomination?

pagansister -
“Does this mean that you are for equality for all…and approve of same gender unions, and homosexual priests etc.?”
Well, I am, as you’ve probably gathered from my posts. And I think that there is a growing not-yet-consensus within TEC that gay priests and deacons are not a significant issue, gay bishops only a little more so. Gay unions I think are generally a little more of an issue, but progress is coming.
Anglicans are catholics, which means that we view ordination and matrimony as sacraments – “Outward and visible signs of an inward and spiritual grace, and a sure and certain means whereby we may receive that grace.” Serious stuff, so making big change about either is serious stuff as well.
And because bishops are successors to the Apostles, changes in understanding of episcopal ordination is especially so. You might remember the surge of opposition with we began to ordain women to the priesthood and episcopate about thirty years ago.
On that, most churches of the Anglican Communion have not yet caught up. England ordains women as priests but not bishops, for example, but I just read that an ecclesial court in Australia just this week determined that ordaining women bishops does not violate their canon law.
Thirty years. A generation. A long time in a person’s life, but an eyeblink in the history of humankind. We’re getting there, but it’s hard.

DS:
Yes, I actually do remember the conflict over the women priests…
Let’s hope this issue doesn’t take 30 years. Sometimes it is difficult waiting for the “right” things to take place. And yes, change is hard even when it needs to happen.

I guess all the Primates – simians in clerical garb, or not – will join hands and do the newest dance – the Episcopal Sidestep.
Not to bang our drum too loudly – but the UCC does ordain, support, and encourage lgbt folks in ministry. This is not without its own dark side, however. They are then thrown into the same pool of candidates we all swim in from time to time. There is no heirarchy to compell a congregation to call a particular pastor. So many of my lgbt colleagues have a difficult time getting caslled to serve. BUT when they are called, almost everyone of the congregations they serve wind up quite thrilled and pleased with them. The samehappened with women, African/Americans, and some others too. But we stuck with them and soon these discussion became a lot less of an issue. Although I would like to wish the same for the other denoinations, I think the clergy might rather bring their gifts for ministry to the UCC. We’ll welcome them with open arms, minds, and hearts!

The UCC seems to certainly have their act together. Other denominations should use them for an example of doing the right thing!

O great – don’t go telling them (well, us) that — We’ll blush (collectively) and get all shy. But THEN we’ll get all proud and haughty, and then we’ll have to find other ways to deflate our collective ego (plenty of amo for that assignment). Actually, for all the grief I give my beleagured denomination (and that is plenty) I luv ‘em, and luv being associated with ‘em.