I salute the courts announcement.
From the article:
“Conservatives, however, lamented the ruling and pledged to push for a ban on transgender clergy at next year’s General Conference in Texas.
In recent years, conservatives have been largely successful in upholding church laws against sexually active gay clergy.”
Why are conservatives so focused on genitalia?
Peace!

“Why are conservatives so focused on genitalia?”
Okay, it’s the liberals who are for pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, sex changes, and every other kind of sex that I can think of and many others that I cannot and have little desire to, and you say WE’RE obsessed with the issue? Hell, before the 1960s we were doing just fine without it, thank you very much!
God bless.

Joey-
“Okay, it’s the liberals who are for pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, sex changes, and every other kind of sex that I can think of and many others that I cannot and have little desire to, and you say WE’RE obsessed with the issue?”
Not being a liberal I can not speak for liberals. However, it is my observation that liberals are for individual rights and freedoms….rather than being focused on sex and gender.
As an observer, it seems to me that conservatives are either focused on gender and sex or focused on denying peolpe equal rights.
As far “before the 1960s”….I am not sure that blacks, asians, native
Americans, lgbt people, Jews, and females would agree with you.
Peace!

“sexually active gay clergy”
Now it’s “transgender sexually active gay clergy”!
What else would you like to add on to the list of things that we are all supposed to be good with? Somehow I’m thinking that this is going in the wrong direction. If people want to go to a church where the “transgender sexually active gay clergy” are welcomed by the body of the church then start the first “transgender sexually active gay clergy” church and you can all worship together and tolerate whatever else sounds like a good idea. Oh and throw the bibles out the door, by the time you rip out the text that doesn’t tolerate your ideas and opinions there won’t be much left to read.

Quote: “But we expect the upcoming General conference…will respond with legislation that upholds traditional christian teachings about the sacredness of the human body”, Tooley said.
The human body is only sacred because of it’s soul within it. When you discount the soul you are discounting the person that is living within the body. Phoenix’s soul longed to be a man, and science has made this possible so he can be the person he was meant to be, and fulfill his life with purpose. To not seek the knowledge of understanding the problems of the transgendered people by the Methodist Church and applying Christian beliefs to this delimma would be exceptionally cruel and would show an inability to face reality.

1. Being transgendered has nothing or next to nothing with either sex or sexual orientation. Being transgendered has to do with bringing your outward appearance in line with your inner perception of yourself and which gender role fit into. For some transgendered people this may mean occassional or even regular cross dressing for others it may mean permanent or semi-permanent changes through hormone therapy and/or surgery.
2.It is primarily European-American culture that has a hang up about what we now call transgendered people. Many cultures in Asia, the Near East, and among American Indians recognize a third gender — that is to say people born of one sex who fit into the gender roles, dress, and mannerism of the opposite sex. Of particular interest are the people sometimes referred to as two-spirits (two spirits — male and female, inhabiting one body) , American Indians who were born with the body of one sex but often adopted some or all of the dress and role associated with the other sex. Two-spirits were often granted special status as artists, religious leaders, and keepers of lore, mythology, and spiritual traditions. Cross dressing among American Indians was not necessarily associated with cross acting or even choice of sexual partner, however, among some cultures a man who had a two-spirit for a wife was considered especially…fortuitous.

Galatians 3:27-29 says that among believers there is neither male nor female. What is it that the conservatives and reactionaries don’t understand?

“Galatians 3:27-29 says that among believers there is neither male nor female. What is it that the conservatives and reactionaries don’t understand?”
It also says race doesn’t matter, but everybody agrees that Michael Jackson is creepy for changing that.
God bless.

Whatever happened to using the Bible as a standard of conduct in the UMC?

Ned-
I think the UMC utilizes the Wesleyan Quadrilateral as opposed to relying soley on the Bible.
Peace!

“Okay, it’s the liberals who are for pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, sex changes, and yada yada yada”
I was for pre-marital sex for a while when I was pre-marital, not I’m pretty indifferent to it unless the people involved are young, drunk/drugged, not informed or not ready to be safe, in which case I’m against it.
I have no desire whatever to try homosexual sex or a sex change. And I am, by reasonable measure, a liberal. Joey, you are just wrong, wrong, wrong. Do your research before you post.
“Whatever happened to using the Bible as a standard of conduct in the UMC?”
Help me out here, just where in the Bible is gender change mentioned at all? What, you say it isn’t!? Then Ned, you need to do your research before you post, too.

This decision is an abomination to God. The Lord creates as He decides and our efforts to change what God has created is a transgression of His word. 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,;
“nor effeminate” Look u8p the meaning. Rev.A.R.Smith
A.R.Smith Ministries.

effeminate: having unsuitable feminine qualities
That’s one of two definitions I found. If one was born with feminine qualities, but as a male, I’d think it’s obvious one or the other is unsuitable and fixing either would solve the problem. Since it’s (now, at least) easier to fix one’s sex than their “qualities” that’s clearly an appropriate and Christian solution. I don’t understand how you missed that, A.R.
Oh, and what about the woman who’d really like to be a man? “God” seems to have totally overlooked that when It wrote the Bible.

Sorry, A.R. maybe I overlooked something. Maybe by “our efforts to change what God has created is a transgression of His word” you mean we shouldn’t change anything; never take out a tonsil or a wisdom tooth, never take a heart pill or an aspirin? If that’s what you mean then at least you were consistent but you should say so. Otherwise you ARE inconsistent.
But, being a preacher, maybe inconsistency doesn’t bother you.

Rev Smith-
I do not know what religion you are. I am Christian. As a Christian, I would not presume to know what God’s will for Rev. Ann Gordon/Rev. Drew Phoenix was/is. However, since Rev Phoenix continues to serve God I trust that if this were not God’s will….the outcome of the court would have been different.
I recognized your quote of 1Co 6:9 from the King James version of the Christian Bible….however, I do not understand what this has to do with the article at hand.
Peace!

Rev. Smith: quote, This decision is an ambomination to God. The Lord creates as He decides and our efforts to change what God has created is a transgression of his word.
By decision do you mean his change of sex or the Churches for allowing him to continue preaching? Do you think that changing childrens ‘harelips’ that they are born with is wrong? Do you think that seperating ‘Siamease Twins’ is a transgression?, or any other anomaly of the body that a person is unfortunate to be born with? I rather doubt that you would, but then you might.
Quote: 1CO-6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind.
You can’t erase 2000 years of medical science. Homosexuality and Transgendered people are not the same, do you understand that? Transgendered is a medical problem that can be fixed if the person desires to, and can afford to. Homosexuality, despite what you have read is not fixable. You are probably Hetero, so give thinks Rev. Smith you and I don’t have to do battle and be judged so harshly. It is well documented in the Medical Societies that Homosexuality is born into a baby. You can love that baby and bring him or her up to love themselves or you can destroy what God hath made. If you do this then you and everyone else are acting unrighteous, and you take a chance of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

vanity, vanity, way too much time and money and selfishness, sinful vanity. It’s not of God it is an offense to Him according to His word.

vanity, vanity, way too much time and money and selfishness, sinful vanity. It’s not of God it is an offense to Him according to His word.
What does your comment mean?? Who has vanity, too much time and money and selfishness, sinful vanity? Is it the Churches who believe that all men are worthy of Gods love and acceptance, is it the families who have given birth to Homosexual children, is it Medical Science, or is it all the posters who don’t share your interpretation of the Bible? or all of it? Such a profound statement deserves an explanation of sorts. Please don’t use another bibical quote to answer this, just your own thoughts. Thanks.

“Such a profound statement”
I’d have said “Such a pretentious statement”

H22 I would rather use a biblical statement then to dare equate the cutting off of genitals, and pumping up one’s body with foreign hormones with the repair of a harelip.
To be preoccupied with sex changes instead of feeling the hungry or educating the poor is vanity plain and simple. And to do such a thing then peach to people as though you have improved on the work of God is way too much into the idol worship of one’s self. Other works of the church has nothing to do with this abomination.
Why not just ask me what I think?

Cknuck, I’ve asked you what you thought before, and your answer was it wasn’t about the subject, or in short asking you what you thought wasn’t relevent to the discourse being posted. If you feel insulted I’m sorry, wasn’t meant to be. This pastor I’m sure is very involved with feeding the hungry, and helping the poor, all United Methodist Churches are. He just happens to be a transgendered man, that’s all. You can gash your teeth, and call all GLBT people abominations, but that doesn’t make it so.

The request was “Please don’t use another Biblical quote to answer this,”
When Jesus was challenged by the devil He used scripture as a defense so I guess He had no thoughts of His own neither?
It’s obvious what this pastor is involved in.
My relevance does not have to and probably never will line up to yours to be a part of this community.

I’ve heard of Pastors not having balls but this is ridiculous! The United Methodist Church is a scam, a joke, laughing stock of Christianity! and why would any person follow the leadership of transgendered? Keep the gays outta the Church, or I’ll kick’em all out myself!

Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. While many transgender individuals are attracted to their same biological sex, many women who feel they should be men still want to have sex with men after becoming men. So, strictly speaking, even though the narrow categories we are using are inadequate, this particular person, if he is still attracted to men, and, for the sake of the religious bigots critcizing him who will maintain he is still a she, he, or she, would still be heterosexual, and thus, I can’t see why that would disqualify him or her from ministry according to your criteria. In fact, even though what one may call the political response against transgender people is stronger, due to a comparative lack of visibility to simply gay people, the science is much more strongly on their side. Science has identified no defining characteristic of homosexuals, established what causes it, and beyond some nebulous probabilities of certain physical characteristics, one can’t come down strongly on the side that homosexuality is inborn. We’ve known for years that there are anatomical differences in male and female brains, and there are cases where brains with clearly female traits are found in male bodies or vice-versa. Unless one is willing to take seriously the rather absurd hypothesis that gender identity issues are psychological and somehow affect neuroanatomy, I can’t see how would one avoid the conclusion that it is real.

To be fair, the analogy of sex change to a harelip is not that convincing. A much better example would be hermaphrodites who are normally assigned a sex based which genitalia is more prominent, and often end up having gender id issues later on in life. What seems to be a rather pathological aversion to people having freedom over their own crotches would dictate that these infants should be left alone since God doesn’t make mistakes. Or, if they are assigned the wrong sex, they shouldn’t change it since they have a penis and thismust mean they have a male brain. Or, better yet, let’s just ignore any part of nature that doesn’t neatly fit our categories or makes things complicated.
All fetuses are originally female, that’s why males have nipples. Hormones are released that cause the ovaries to become testicles, so every male is, in a way, already transgendered. Is it really hard to believe that there are circumstances where something doesn’t go quite right?

George-
“The United Methodist Church is a scam, a joke, laughing stock of Christianity! and why would any person follow the leadership of transgendered? Keep the gays outta the Church, or I’ll kick’em all out myself!”
Why would you care what the UMC or any other Christian church does?
Do you follow a particular religion?
Peace!

I think this discussion is missing the issue at hand. I think it is more of an issue of – if a person feels that God has made a “mistake”, are they the person to lead others to a relationship with an all-knowing God. Regardless of what kind of “mistake” was made. If you are not a Christian it is difficult to understand the trust one has in our perfect God.

“I think this discussion is missing the issue at hand. I think it is more of an issue of – if a person feels that God has made a “mistake”, are they the person to lead others to a relationship with an all-knowing God. Regardless of what kind of “mistake” was made.”
Where in the article does it say that the Reverend thought God had made a mistake? I certainly do not think God made a mistake. I do not know God’s will for the Reverend. Nor, can I know what is in the Reverend’s heart. As a Christian, we are not called to judge….but rather, we are called to love the Lord our God with all of our heart and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.
“If you are not a Christian it is difficult to understand the trust one has in our perfect God.
As a Christian, I do trust God completely. I trust that God is in agreement with the Reverend….God is capable of handling the situation without the rest of us getting involved.
BTW, I think it probably takes a lot of faith in God to feel like a man in a woman’s body and not blame God. But rather, stay faithful to God….continue to serve God….and, seek medical remedy for the situation. I praise the Rev Drew Phoenix for his faith.
(For the record, only nnmns and George are not Christian.)
Peace!

Sorry, this:
“I trust that God is in agreement with the Reverend….God is capable of handling the situation without the rest of us getting involved.
Shoud have been:
I trust that if God is not in agreement with the Rev….God is capable of handling the situation without the rest of us getting involved.
Is your trust in God not as strong as mine?
Peace!

“If you are not a Christian it is difficult to understand the trust one has in our perfect God.”
It’s certainly hard to understand why anyone would retain that trust in the face of the total lack of evidence any such god exists.

“Where in the article does it say that the Reverend thought God had made a mistake? I certainly do not think God made a mistake.”
The article says “he described as feeling he was in the wrong body”. If she/he feels that the One who created her/his body and her/his soul put her/him in the wrong body then a mistake was made.
But maybe not – maybe I am “wrong” – My “mistake”.

I know what you mean nnmns, no argument here, until God made the evidence obvious to me, it was hard for me to understand as well.

nnmns-
“It’s certainly hard to understand why anyone would retain that trust in the face of the total lack of evidence any such god exists.”
That is what “a leap of faith” is all about.
I echo what “I” posted: “I know what you mean nnmns, no argument here, until God made the evidence obvious to me, it was hard for me to understand as well.”
Peace!

The problem is that it is impossible to trans gender anybody, the only thing available to satisfy people’s strange desires to defy God is to mutilate the body and put chemicals into to guise oneself as the opposite sex. That is the plain and simple of it, what people do with their imaginations is another thing the person is still of the sex they were born.
What this particular pastor did is not only bizarre but defiant to God. If someone thinks for a moment that the pastor’s actions are biblically sound then they are deceived.
To think that a person can “transition” from female to male with a couple of well place cravings and a few batches of hormones is a thinking that bears examination.

I’m sorry, but I have to look at this from a medical view, as well as a religious one. God made the first bodies and said it was good. Along the way from thousands of years ago human bodies have changed, medicines, hormones, hard drugs, stress, inter-breeding, etc., etc., have ocurred. God didn’t change our lives, we did just by living. So we make the mistakes, sometimes. God didn’t make a mistake. The Rev. isn’t a mistake. When something is broken we fix it, we don’t just sit there shaking our heads and stare at it.

No disrespect H22, just my observation:
If God didn’t make a mistake yet the rev. is “broken,” and homosexual persons claim to be that way from birth, then we “fix it,” we are saying God made a mistake and we supersede God as to correct Him through our own measures.
Am I incorrect?

Two issues:
| and JohnQ, whatever may have happened in your heads does not constitute any evidence of any god. It just means something happened in your heads.
And you people with your obsessing on “God” not making a mistake ignore all the operations and medicines taken every day to fix what could just as easily be interpreted as “God’s mistakes”. Only, since you or yours are more likely to need that kind of fix, you ignore those corrections.
Purely hypocritical.

ALL RIGHT!! More sex in religion!
George, go start your own church and stop trying to be so threatening. Other people are laughing.
God is not in our genitals. Faith is not in our genitals. Religion is not in our genitals. Our identity is not in our genitals.
EXCEPT, there was a long time when it was thought Eunuchs were outside of any possible faith communtiy. Then look at what Philip (Horray for the Phils or “-fyls” of the world!)did with the Ethiopian Eunuch. He was a black, rich, genderless, foreigner and still baptised and blessed.
Take the lesson to heart, folks. God is not lifting our robes or making us drop our shorts. We are told to lift our voices in song, not turn our heads and cough (I know its for a different reason, but those of us who have had the test appreciate the similarity)

This quote is from the B’net Homepage. I think it applies to everyone who is trying to make the modern issues conform to ancient scripture and culture.
Some think it’s holding on that makes one strong; sometimes it’s letting go.
- Sylvia Robinson
We should honor this and take ot to heart.

j, welcome back! I hope you had a great trip and everything is going along fine where you came back to.

nnmns
Thanks – good to be back. Trip had highs and lows.
Has anyone noticed that this piece has generated almost 40 responses and most of the others get only 6 to 10? We sure do like our lascivious news!

Hi jest, I’d like to disagree, I think God is concerned with our genitals and we honor Him in how we choose to enjoy the well thought out gift of genitals, and God did intend that part of our earthly identity would be in our genitals which are of godly design. I also think we disrespect God when we mutilate ourselves for vanity and self service. Anytime someone would spend that much money and time one changing a godly design and not think of using that energy and recourses on the less fortunate how dare they call themselves a minister.

Yes! And poofy haircuts, too.

jestrfyl-
This article indirectly involves sex. And, non-heterosexual references. Haven’t you noticed that these type articles always have a lot of action?
BTW, it is good to see you back.
Peace!

Jestr you found the ‘Headlines’! Did you get my message on the home page, on how to find it? Good to hear your wit and good sense again. Hope your lows weren’t too low.

Incorrect, cknuck. Nobody is broken. God didn’t make a mistake. Hormones, and whatever did. Think of it this way, God made a beautiful tree that the owner took care of, but eventually he sold his home and a new owner did everything wrong to take care of the tree; he sprayed it with poison, didn’t water it, didn’t know how to take care of it, and didn’t read a book on how to heal it, and it ceased to live, eventually. So did God make a mistake with this tree because it withered and died? There are many physical things that go wrong in a body, and someday the scientists will have a definite reason for all of them. For now we should accept what the Scientific Community does know, and stop trying to live as though it is the original beginnings of Christianity.

They have kind of hidden our lair, haven’t they. Too bad. How did you leave a message, Henrietta?

It was under, New Belief Homepage, nnmns. I couldn’t figure out how to get in, so I left a message to tiger or bear. Over the three days of waiting for an answer jestrfyl found it and answered me, but I hadn’t found it until the day after, as I was staring at the Home Page when the Headlines moved, and caught my attention. I then went back and left him another message. I looked today and it was gone, New Belief Homepage. We’re all back together, again!!

Actually we’re not, where is Pagansister?

See, no one can stop the Fifth Third Pooskedorian Church, or whatever we called ourselves. Henrietta led the way and I followed her advice Horray! Boy, 2 weeks away and the whole thing gets tossed around like a salad spinner. I missed playing on here.
Cknuck
OK, I’ll grant you God is in our gentials, and so is Chirst. But we are expected to lift our eyes and not get so focused below the waist.
Does your theory also apply to all forms of plastic surgery. Where do we draw the line. I have been fascinated by the story today about the giirl with 4 arms and 4 legs. Do we tell her, “Sorry, no divine mistake here!” Should TVangelists not be allowed to use up natural resources by over extending their blow driers? And at what point do we not work to shape our natural world? Does this mean I do not have to mow the lawn anymore? When was your last haircut? Could it not also be that God hopes we will find a way to bring peace to souls troubled by their borth state? Perhaps God intends for tis generation to learn how best to improve the human condition so each person can be as fully human as God intended? Maybe God WANTED this to happen? Are you sure you KNOW God’s mind?! Wow, I’m impressed, even if I am not converted.

A little late to this discussion.
jestrfly,
Am still finding my way around this redone site too. As you mentioned, 2 weeks away and things certainly changed. Hope you have mostly highs on your vacation…and as H22 said, not to low, lows.
cknuck,
I don’t think your god would want his children to be unhappy in the body they were born with, if indeed, their mind tells them they aren’t the boy that shows outwardly, but the girl that is internal, or vise versa. Why would someone go through what must be at times physically painful, to make their body reflect their mind? How do you know what is in a god’s mind? Would you tell that little girl who was born with 4 arms and 4 legs that she is what your god wanted her to be, and sorry, you have to live like that? (as was brought up by jestrfyl) No surgery for you! Minds are very complicated, and even the best of medical science so far hasn’t been able to figure out sexual identity as it applies to the mind. If I was to believe in your god, I would think she/he would be accepting of all his children, and their decisions when it came to who they are. I expect you believe she/he gave us a brain and with that brain, the power to know what is right for us when it comes to who we are attracted to for lovers, and if we mentally fit our outside gender.

Correction once again: jestrfyl, not the mistype I made (once again)

“before the 1960s we were doing just fine” said Ward Cleaver. He, too, was fictional.

Ned asked: “Whatever happened to using the Bible as a standard of conduct in the UMC?”
Well, first of all, you would have to agree on WHICH VERSION of the Bible to use as the ‘standard’. Then you’d have to agree on WHICH PARTS are acceptable. I doubt many Christians today would agree with the part that says slaves are to obey their masters. Or the part that says we should put disobedient children to death and kill the victims of incest.
Sorry Ned, but your question is invalid until those kinds of issues (and there are many, many more) are settled.

“nor effeminate” Look u8p the meaning”
“Rev.” A. R. Smith, “effiminate” would describe the ‘good’ “Reverends” Falwell and Haggart and quite a few others.

cknuck,
“To be preoccupied with sex changes instead of feeling the hungry or educating the poor is vanity plain and simple.”
And where is any evidence that the good Reverend is NOT doing these things???

George,
“I’ve heard of Pastors not having balls but this is ridiculous! The United Methodist Church is a scam, a joke, laughing stock of Christianity! and why would any person follow the leadership of transgendered? Keep the gays outta the Church, or I’ll kick’em all out myself!”
Ah yes, the “christian” response – loving as always – NOT! Speaking of being the laughing stock of Christianity, you seem to have replace the empty throne left by the passing of the unlamented Mr. Falsewell.
P.S. A hint: you CAN’T keep the gays outta the Church. We are there, we always have been there and we always will be there. Diversity is part of God’s plan for creation. Sorry you don’t happen to like it.

George:
I was raised in the Methodist church and one of my 2 sisters is still a Methodist. I no longer am a Christian, having left at 18, but still was happy to have had the upbringing in the Methodist religion. Why would anyone follow a transgendered person? Because they happen to be the minister? Works for me. No different then following any other minister, priest, or whatever religious leader who happened to be in my particular religion. (if I agreed with them)
If indeed you believe your god loves all his creations, then he would want them to be happy. As I mentioned in a previous post, if a person outwardly isn’t the person his/her brain says they are, then where is the problem with making the body match the brain?
Fortunately you don’t represent Methodists, or any other Christians from what your statements say. My Christian friends understand that their god doesn’t hate his/her children.

If God isn’t concerned with genitals, why did he make circumcision the sign of his covenant with the Hebrews? If anyone thinks Yahweh is neutral about genitals, read the part of Torah where he stalks Moses, and Zipporah saves him by chopping off her son’s forskin.. here’s the text:
“And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast [it] at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband [art] thou to me. So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband [thou art], because of the circumcision. ” (Exodus 4:18-26)

Forgot to point out that Yahweh seems concerened mostly with male genitals. I can’t think of scripture where female privates are discussed.

KLBA1
Now THAT is the sort of stuff that will keep middle school students’ attention and get a discussion going!!!
Naughty bits, blood, and violence – the stuff of Western Culture!

And what of female ‘circumcision’ (aka genital mutilation). What does Yahweh think of THAT?