“Pope Benedict XVI strongly criticized modern-day atheism in a major document released Friday, saying it had led to some of the “greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice” ever known to mankind.”
And Catholicism has led to some of the worst examples of torture and mind control ever known to mankind. So I strongly criticize Catholicism.
Take that, PB4.
Actually it’s led to a lot of other bad things that are ongoing and could, eventually, kill us all but I won’t enumerate them unless challenged.
Ben has a real problem of criticizing others without examining his own “house” which in fact has a LOT of cleaning that needs doing. He’s turned out to be a very poor spokesman and disastrous leader for the RCC.

Sure, whatever. If I had a miniscule of respect for this man, some of this might be important. He really hasn’t any more wisdom than anyone else even though I guess he thinks he does since he is the “boss man” of a large religious group. (and is filling Peter’s shoes??? St. Peter I presume). He finds atheism a problem? It has led to the “greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice ever known to mankind?” This from a man who has a long list of priests who have prayed on children for a VERY LONG TIME and overlooked it? This from a man who has a church with a history of killing those who weren’t followers of THE CHURCH? While they no longer kill those who don’t believe, they certainly don’t seem to recognize that there are other faiths in this world who are just as “good” as the RCC. And, then there are the agnostics and atheists…and the Pagans etc. who are bound for hell. (and, of course, as has been said)are responsible for some much trouble in this world. Right!
Guess someone will read his 76 page words of wisdom, but I think he needs to pay attention to solving the problems in the RCC and even give some of them “hope” that the church will learn that women have rights, the priests could still serve the church and be married, that there are still priests that are molesting children etc.

The Pope said, “We must acknowledge that modern Christianity, faced with the successes of science in progressively structuring the world, has to a large extent restricted its attention to the individual and his salvation.”…..
Yes, we have become healthier, vaccines, transplants, antibiotics, etc., and yes it has helped us individually, and in mass; and yes, it has saved many of us from death. Can’t see a problem here.
….Pope, again, “In doing so, it has limited the horizon of hope and has failed to recognize sufficiently the greatness of its task.”
I look at science as giving us quite a lot of hope. Why would this kind of hope take away from the Pope’s hope for communal salvation? or anything else the RC’s believe? How has science failed to recognize sufficiently the greatness of its task? Anyone understand what he’s saying? I don’t. It sounds like bibical scholarship getting lost.

Henrietta,
It’s not that science is bad. It’s that, historically, the rise of science as a means of explaining the world encouraged religion in the West to turn inward and become individualistic as it science began to replace some of its old tasks. Pretty much any intellectual historian who works on the issue will agree that this is undoubtedly the case (although a bit oversimplified, since there were other factors besides science involved, such as the rise of capitalism and liberal politics).
The point is not that science should be rejected but that theology should regain its “public” character and turn back to its old concern for salvation of the world, not just salvation of one’s individual soul.

Nate, when the Pope says “salvation” I presume he’s talking about the hypothetical salvation of the hypothetical soul, not about concrete acts that could benefit peoples’ actual lives “on earth”. Would you agree?
If so, there are worse things they could be doing than being off praying for all of our “souls”, but there are much better things it could work on, (some of which the RCC does some of) like ending wars and getting food to the hungry and fighting avarice. And of course it would be a boon to the world if it would stop its opposition to real birth control.

nnmns,
Yes, the Pope is concerned with life on earth as well as the salvation of the soul after death. It’s just that his understanding of what constitutes a good life on earth does not always match what secularists understand to be the good life.

The guy frustrates me – ya know?! On some levels I agree with him (or him with me?). But then, after making a great point he gets what our family calls – spleeny – which is a close cousin to bilious. Why he condemns atheism as outrageously violent and cruel seems to ignore the exact same resonse from religion far more often. I know he’s the very prototype of “the company man” – it comes with the job. But sometimes it seems he does not look past the gaudy ring on his finger and see the wonders present in the rest of the world.
Look up Ben – it is the season for looking at mystery and seeking surprises.
And as to the cliffhanger – will there be “faith”? Wait a minute… that sounds like a retty good title for a sermon! Gee, I wonder if he has copyrighted it yet.

Henrietta, in that part he was talking about Christianity, not science

“It’s just that his understanding of what constitutes a good life on earth does not always match what secularists understand to be the good life.”
Or a lot of religionists, either.

The Pope said, “We must acknowledge that modern Christianity, faced with the successes of science in progressively structuring the world, has to a large extent restricted its attention to the individual and his salvation.“…..
Sounds to me this is a scolding to people who have realized they can have a direct relationship with our Lord without the need for clergy as middlemen. Or, out of respect for my atheist friends….a scolding to people who have realized they can have a fulfilling life as without the need for clergy.
My family and I are very involved in our church. Not so that a clergy person can tell us what we must do….but rather to be inspired by our ministers and fellow congregants.
Peace!

No, JohnQ, I’m not getting your reading out that line when you put in the context of the whole encyclical. These days, the big trend among theologians both in Catholicism and in non-hierarchical Protestant denominations is to lament to privatization of religious hope, so that salvation essentially gets reduced to salvation of my soul without concern for salvation for the world as a whole. The older Christian concern, at least as it was being preached, was concerned with salvation for the world in its entirety; it was the salvation of the world that the individual lived in, not the individual soul’s flight from the troubles of the world. It also involved a stronger appreciation for the role of community in religious life, which it understands not just as something to help the individual on his or her path to personal salvation but as an end in itself: salvation itself implies the creation of perfect community.
Benedict is part of the “nouvelle theologie” sensibility of modern Catholicism, which is one of the movements that has looked back to older, more traditional trends in Christian thought and called for a return to less individualistic ways of understanding one’s salvation hope.

Thanks Nate for your explanation.
“The point is not that science should be rejected but that theology should regain its “public” character and turn back to its old concern for salvation of the world, not just salvation of one’s individual soul.”
The world is made up of individuals, we are the world. It seems that the Pope is not keeping up with the world and individuals progressing in the world. He would like to put everyone back a century where his Church was comfortable, and in obedience. The Pope uses an exp. of monks in the middle ages who cloistered themselves in prayer, not for themselves but for all people. I don’t know what R.C. pray in their churches, but in Protestant Churches we always pray for all people. That’s part of every Christian service, I would assume.

Henrietta22-
“I don’t know what R.C. pray in their churches, but in Protestant Churches we always pray for all people. That’s part of every Christian service, I would assume.”
I think you have pointed out the obvious…that I had missed. Yes, it is as though the Pope is suggesting that modern Christians do not prayer for others. Each sunday all the prayers at our church are for others. We do not have a period in our service where our minister says: okay…now pray for yourself.
Peace!

For those wanting a more complete and possibly more accurate report, here’s a Catholic World News article on it.

Here’s a quote from that article:
‘Christians have confidence in their eternal fate, the Pope said. “The dark door of time, of the future, has been thrown open. The one who has hope lives differently; the one who hopes has been granted the gift of a new life.”
This sort of hope is not possible, the Pope argues, “without God in the world.”‘
There’s so much to disagree with there.
First, I think only some Christians have so much confidence in “their eternal fate”; some must wonder mightily where they’ll “go”, otherwise why all the money to televangelists, etc.?
Second, one could hope for some kind; any of several kinds of eternal existence without benefit of a god like he claims to represent, or probably without any god at all.
Third, in my experience Christians and non-Christians have much the same distribution of acting well or acting poorly. I sure wouldn’t put Christians on any pedestal.
I think PB4 is writing his fantasies.

Thanks for the Catholic news article, nnmns. It reads like an entirely different article compared with the above one. I agree with the Pope in his last three paragraphs, in what He says about C. prayer, hope, Apostolic works. This is the way our family has lived our lives and Christ has given all of us the strength to get through all our setbacks in our lives, because of C. hope.

nnmns:
Read the article you mentioned. It certainly does read differently than the above one.
Hope does exist in the world without a belief in a god. That is probably hard for some folks to understand….especially Benny and many men and women who are religious leaders.
Personally, I have hope, and consider myself to be an optimistic person (most of the time).

Well, one has to expect such vitriolic misunderstanding. The sins of Catholics are so numerous, so horrific, so longstanding. Perhaps the only way to preach the truth is in silent loving action for a few centuries. As Francis of Assisi taught, “Preach the Gospel always. If NECESSARY, use words.” Dorothy Day, another of us benighted Catholics, used to say that, even if your Mother is a whore,you’ve got to love your Mother. She called herself a “faithful, if often angry, daughter of the Church,” that she loved the Church as “Christ present in the world.” Romano Guardini, a wise Catholic theologian of the middle of the last century said that Church was often the cross upon which Christ was crucified.
But these are my babblings whispered into cacaphony. I respect Benedicts attempts at being “pontifex,” but this bridge cannot be built by words. Yet, I do find it strange that Catholic-bashers criticize the imposition of “Catholic guilt” on the faithful, but are so insistent that we ARE INDEED SO GUILTY!
Perhaps we should all ascend “Into Great Silence.” May God give you peace.

nnmns,
I, too read the article you linked. Though it read like a corporate puff piece (that it is), but it did add a little more light. Clearly Benny does not do his own computer work. Anyone whao has endured tech help on the phone knows there is not eternal hope in technology – only eternal waiting. I think he has not been with any actual atheists in a long time. The ones I know (as they say, “Some of my best friends are atheists”) are as hopeful as they come. And he did add in a bit of Marionite (as compared to marionette) theology, which I think ocmplicates the whole thing. And as for us rascally Protestants – we are congregational by name, theology, ecclesiology, and philosophy. Our denomination is HUGE in the whole world or whole creation approach to life. We want everyone to join our party – no id checks, no monthly fees or hidden costs, no dress code (well, not officially).Gaystraightoldyoungconservativeliberaluncommittedleftorrighthandedlonghairbeardbaldwigsickhealthymilitarypacifistpaganrebornbuddhisttaoistnaturistsocialiteaborigineimmigrantpatriotprotestovereducateilliterateorornoneoftheabove.
I suppose his cloistered and ivory tower-ed life takes him to these places. Don’t want to soil the red shoes in the city streets! But, as much as I agravated with him, he does say some great things too. I suppose, like so many of us tend to do, Benny takes things to their (il)logical conclusions. I suppose I may have to track down the whole encyclical some time.

even if your Mother is a whore,you’ve got to love your Mother. She called herself a “faithful, if often angry, daughter of the Church,” that she loved the Church as “Christ present in the world.
This is not the same. You don’t have a choice about who gives birth to you. Even then there are mothers that are not worthy of love when they harm their children.
The Catholic church has harmed countless people over the centuries. Yet your are supposed to love it??? I don’t think so. Now I am not Catholic, but was raised in a very Catholic neighborhood. I was not the least impressed by the kids in my generation “moral” behavior. What I experienced from the adults wasn’t any better. Generally far as I can see any Christian religion.
The pope wants everyone to have faith in God, but only his. No thanks for the offer, I have great hope in this life and the next. I think for myself, not for some leader thousands of miles a way who doesn’t have a clue about my life.

“The Catholic church has harmed countless people over the centuries. Yet your are supposed to love it???”
The problem that I have with the Catholic church is not its past. But rather its present. It perpetuates discrimination, prejudice, and bigotry. There are many great Catholics….the RCC offers many great things. However, the hierarchy continues to promote prejudice, discrimination, and bigotry.
The problem I have with this Pope is that he seems to need to attack or condemn other religions and people in order to make his points that are supposed to inspire his flock.
I agree with jestrfyl, it would seem from his writings and speeches that the Pope is very far removed from the flock and everyday RL.
Peace!

If there has been anything more destructive and deadly than religion through all of history I don’t know what it would be.

The “isms” of history have never brought true hope or lasting peace to anyone. They all have been responsible for all the problems we face. When we rely on a closed set of dogmas, whether “religious” or “secular” (for even secularism is a religion) we forget the needs of others and fall into the greatest heresy of all, that we are islands onto ourselves. It has always intrigued me that Christianity is the only value system that does not end is “ism” but in “ity”. The root mean of that suffix is “a state of existence”, a reality to aspire to. The problem with Christianity is that so few have really tried it. ” Blessed are the ……………………………… etc.”
Stand up, stretch out you arms and take the hands of those around you and then look at the sign that you make. This is our calling, this is who we are. No different than the one seen over 2000 years ago. Fratres, pax vobiscum

“I agree with jestrfyl, it would seem from his writings and speeches that the Pope is very far removed from the flock and everyday RL.”
Thank goodness that his job is not to just mirror the beliefs of the liberal members of his flock! If liberal Catholics just want someone to “keep up with the times” or something like that, they should just become Protestants.

‘If liberal Catholics just want someone to “keep up with the times” or something like that, they should just become Protestants.’
There are all sorts of places they can go if they want more rationality, which they all should. But some of them have invested enormous effort and money in the RCC and apparently find it hard to leave.
Nate, you seem to think preserving the traditional is good, and consequently reacting to the world as it really is, is bad. In this age when we are recognizing the reality of global warming and facing peak oil and fighting real fundamentalist enemies and have politicians who choose to rattle even more sabers rather than looking for solutions, we desperately need fact-based thinking, not the faith-based thinking you seem to prefer. Having one’s thinking clouded by beliefs in Armageddon or in a god that will protect us from whatever stupid things we do is no preparation for addressing our real problems.
Oh, and what’s now the traditional is not what used to be the traditional. Just as an example Catholic teachings on abortion have changed a lot.

nnmns:
Read the article you posted regarding the Catholic’s past view on abortion. Seems to me, Benny ought to read his Catholic history!!
Thanks for the heads up about the abortion article. Being a very pro-choise woman, it was VERY interesting to read that article.

PS-
“Seems to me, Benny ought to read his Catholic history!!”
I have no doubt he is well versed in history. It seems to me that the RCC goes to great length to down play history that demonstrates any change in their dogma.
The RCC’s policies on clergy marriage, abortion, and homosexuality (to name just a few) have changed greatly over the years. Often swaying back and forth.
Peace!

When I first heard about this encyclical I immediately thought of this
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/42811
I don’t blame him though; he has got to keep saying things or else people will start to realize that the atheists are right. There aren’t any arguements the church has left except that atheists are evil soulless killing machines. I find it sort of funny because utopian communism is so much like Christianity. And yes atheism is an ism… just like theism and agnosticism. Grammar doesn’t make ideas good or evil you know.
You can believe what ever you want. Unlike in Peter Pan it won’t have any effect on the real world (except your brain).

I’m not Catholic, but I come from a strongly Catholic family. What Benny is saying here, without actually saying so much, is that the Church is a control device which has lost control over the minds and hearts its adherents. His hope is that the church can turn itsef back to the “good old days” when they were in control, and everything looked less bleak for the organization.
By the age of five, I had already come to the conclusion that the Church was nothing more than a cleverly designed control structure. It wasn’t until getting my degree in religious studies that I realized that that is true of ALL organized religions. What Benny here is saying is nothing new. It’s just another attempt to use subtle mind control to keep command over “the Flock” and thereby restock the papal coffers.

Christopher Mohr-
Amen to that!

“The Catholic church has harmed countless people over the centuries.”
That appears to be the general consensus here. On what facts to you base it? The sexual molestors accounted for 1% of all priests though I agree that the way the media pounded the story one would think it was ALL of those goodly men. Because some people do harm does that mean the others are silenced forever? They are ALL guilty? They no longer have a voice?
Put the Numbers in Perspective:
More people are killed by Islamists each year than in all 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition combined. Islamic terrorists murder more people every day than the Ku Klux Klan has in the last 50 years.
More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
19 Muslim hijackers killed more innocents in two hours on September 11th than the number of American criminals executed in the last 65 years. Do some research and don’t buy into the talking points of the secularists/leftists.
FYI: 120 million souls killed under Communism in the last century alone.
Don’t believe all you read from the leftist media and other leftists groups. Do your own research.
Just sayin’!
PS: The message is deep and requires more than a glance and an opportunity to bash. That’s all.

aine:
So all those “facts” you mentioned above is supposed to make people say that the RCC isn’t so bad after all, when it comes to molesting priests and it’s somewhat violent past? Crusades, Inquisition etc. Of course, those were a long time ago, but still facts. Obviously some other religions have a violent past also, and some are violent in the present. However, the RCC, IMO, is still living in the past with it’s attitudes towards women and the priesthood, divorce, marriage of priests, birth control to name a few.
My views of the RCC haven’t been altered by your presentation but they were interesting to read.

All parents have heard the defense, “But everyone else is doing it!” Frankly, I expect better from an institution that is as large and presents itself as leading the way rather than adding to the problem. One groups foolishness does not excuse another’s. Sure other groups have been retarded (meant literally, not simply as a perjorative) and the RC is part of that lumpy, bloody mess. What people really want is not more of the same but, as Monty Python put it, “And now for something Completely Different”. What used to work and what everyone else is doing now are not the means for attracting, converting, and supporting people.
I am sure benny16 has been reading history. However, I suspect it is RC history written by and for RC folk. The slant must be worse than the Tower of Pizza’s. Can’t hope to learn much there.

There go the Catholic Bashers again. Have any of you actually read the entire encyclical? Pardon me, but one has to READ something before criticizing. The Church has sinned, is sinning, and will sin, because we are all sinners. Get over yourselves! The atheists, agnostics, and militant secularists have become just like the inquisition. They say, “I am right, you are wrong.” They will, in the end, be defeated by their own vanity, like some of the Church officials. Thank God for Francis of Assissi and others authentic people in the church. They serve as examples for us. The secularists killed and tortured the Jews, started WWII, built the gas chambers.
The secularists brought us Nietsche, Fascism, Communism, etc. Russian communism fell, the church is back in Russia. Science has now established that our brains are actually hard-wired to love God and believe in a creator. We are hardwired to believe in the God who hard-wired us at creation. The scientific method liberated us from superstition. Man cannot live on reason alone, he has an innate need to “love one another as I have loved you”

JAMES:
The secularists are responsible for all the woes in the world?! WOW! Interesting. I thought it was just nasty dictators, Hitler, Stalin etc. Didn’t know that all the secularists were the cause. How about the Crusades, the Inquisition, the non-help of the Pope in WWII? And they were THE church. How about all the folks in the US Government who wouldn’t accept a boat load of Jewish refugees during WWII into our country…after all this country was supposed to be (and some think still is) a CHRISTIAN country? So why was the ship turned away from our ports? Sorry, can’t blame the bad secularists for “badness” of the world. How about the Korean conflict, Viet Nam, caused by secularists? Better still…how about IRAQ? Saddam was a devout Muslim…”W” is a Christian…and he started a war, for no reason, except a personal one. There has been cruelty and wars since the beginning of time…humans have unfortunately perfected ways to be that way. Some of that cruelty is in the name of a god,and some is not. Personally, I don’t think the agnostics, atheists and secularists are any more to blame than anyone else for the horrors in the world. The religions of the world are too. I know, you admit that we are all “sinners”. That would be the religious point of view. Me, I just think we are all human…with good qualities and not so good ones.
As to being hardwired to believe in the God who hardwired (some of)us at creation….must have missed that in my creation, as did my husband and children. Birth defect? Oh well. I have read some of those articles also. As with all scientific research, there are exceptions to the results.

James:
It seems from your post that all the wars and tortures in the world have been caused by the “secularists”. Bit of a stretch, isn’t it? How do you explain the Inquision, or the Crusades and all of the other religious wars….or even 9/11? Was 9/11 caused by “secularists”? How about the totally unnecessary war in Iraq? Is “W” a secularist”? NO, he claims to be a born again Christian. So your pronouncement that secularists brought us all those bad folks and their ideas (communism etc.) can be matched by a few of the Popes and their evilness and many other misguided religious people, and doesn’t hold water.
In your opinion women and men are hardwired to believe in a god, or creator,based on what you have read on scientific studies. Yes, have read a few of the articles on that. But there are always exceptions to scientific study, and to that hardwiring results too. Missed that circut when made, but my parents did raise me in a Christian religion…I just felt by the time I was 17 that it was a fairy tale. So, all humans are not hardwired to believe in a creator. You said that the scientific method liberated us from superstition….what is religion?
Sin is a convenient religious word for people being human and not always doing the right thing.
As to the agnostics, atheists, and militant secularists? We are doing just fine.