GEE! What a shame.
However it will be interesting to see if the legal Hispanic population will stay Catholic when the next generation grows up.
People are leaving (IMO, even though the article has a fellow who doesn’t think so) because of the church telling them that birth control is wrong, divorce is wrong, terminations are wrong, etc. Smart folks either chose another way to worship or get the heck out of all religion!
As to not having enough “footsoldiers” …did the RCC ever stop to think that is because they won’t allow priests to marry, women priests and several other out of date mandates doesn’t encourage chosing to be in the priesthood or being a nun.

I basically agree, but would phrase it differently. American culture has always been, and these days is becoming ever more, individualistic; Americans as a rule do not like to be told what to do, and thus any “rule-based” religion (Catholicism, Judaism, etc.) tends to lose its members over time to “looser” religions (such as most types of Protestantism, or religions like Buddhism). In any event, this is kind of a good thing; if you don’t believe in what the RCC teaches, you SHOULD leave. The Catholic Church would do better as a tiny but united group than the huge but chaotic entity it is now.
God bless.

I can’t conceive of the Catholic Church any different than it has been for 2000 years. That is it’s strength. We have seen the result of watering down strict aeherence to God’s law, and not focusing on the danger of losing ones’s soul through adherence to the current society. It didn’t work. If those who have been fortunate enough to have received the faith do not cherish it, then perhaps it is better for them to search elsewhere. Be certain God will not let those who are worthy go astray. It is not easy to be a Catholic, but the rewards are eternal.

“I can’t conceive of the Catholic Church any different that it has been for 2000 years. That is it’s strength.” Vin Terricola
That is, IMO, just why it is losing folks. It isn’t any different that it has been for 2000 years! Strength? What stength is there in not coming of age. This world is nothing like 2000 years ago…fortunately.

“The Church is falling behind,” said Deck, executive director of cultural diversity for the bishops. “We don’t have enough foot soldiers.”
I wonder if it would occur to someone with the title of Executive Director that comparing spiritual leaders to armed forces personnel might be a little problematic for those of us who look to our spiritual “leaders” to help us transition away from war and suffering and towards peace and harmony.
Perhaps the RCC spokesfolks should consider retiring the “Christian soldier” metaphor for something a little less, shall we say, conflict-centric, especially considering our historical and political context.

The elephant in the room is the child molestation and especially the protection of child molesters by people in very high places in the RCC, which has been the major feature of Catholicism in the US, as far as honest newsworthiness, for several years now.
I don’t see how anyone could expect to get morality from an institution that stonewalled that for so long and likely still is to some extent. See this and then this. And if you care to you can read the top secret Vatican policy on handling solicitations, including the all-too-prevalent child abuse.
It’s a parade of shame that reaches all the way to Pope Ben, who’s protected from justice by diplomatic immunity as “head of a state”.

nnmns:
And yet another great reason for leaving the RCC!

The title of the article is a bit of an oxymoron. If they were faithful the church wouldn’t be losing them.

You guys/gals always give me so much to answer! I was a Protestant for approx. 40 years. I am now a Roman Catholic and am so very full of joy to be one.
We now teach CCD class with 23 teenagers, our largest group yet! The problems you all mentioned for the church are only a part of the problem. I believe that the 60′s brought much destabilization to many of our institutions and therefore our culture. Religion is one that has been affected too. Because the church is so big, it takes a long time to make it turn around. It has been happening for a number of years now, but a whole generation has almost been lost. You have to have people in charge who believe what they teach, they have to have faith! I have met new young priests who have faith and are highly intellagent, we are getting in new bishops who really love God and care about the church. It really is an exciting time to be catholic. If any of you are blessed to have Relavant Radio in your area, give it a listen.
Now, about the rules! God gave us rules NOT to hurt us, but to protect us from ourselves and our neighbors. Just like a good parent doestn’t let you do things that will hurt you. A good parent says NO, don’t do that! Then, when you have gained some wisdom, tries to talk with you, give you some options, but lets you choose. But when you let your child make the choice, and it is the wrong one, there are the awful things like consequences. Why, to make us stronger, have wisdom and maybe grow into what God/parent sees what we can be. To be who we really are meant to be, a loving, caring responsible person who is an asset to the world!

Truthseeker,
So….you’re comparing Roman Catholics to children; children, who need to be told what to do because they are not capable of discerning what is good for them.
I, for one, am not a child, and I refuse to be treated as one by my spiritual community. Furthermore, I do not need some book, nor some hierarchy of self-imposed authority figures to tell me what to believe or how to behave. I’m capable of so much more than that, and I dare say, so are you!
I do not expect people to share my beliefs. They’re mine! Tailor-made, even! A rich tapestry of bits and pieces that I picked up from enlightened folks throughout history (even some Catholics, and the J-man himself!). There are even one or two ideas in there that mine be fairly close to my own! What’s better, I reserve the right to re-evaluate my beliefs as I am rewarded by life’s rich experiences. I cannot imagine how or why anyone would give that up, unless out of fear or a lack of belief in their own spiritual integrity (both taught by the RCC, btw.).
As for being an asset to the world, well, if we all just blindly trudge along without ever challenging the rules of the RCC, we’d still be lacking internal medicine, a working knowledge of astrology and women would be prevented from engaging in politics or wearing pants.
You don’t make progress by following blindly along. you make progress by questioning the status quo. And if there is any doubt that we have much progress to make, well, I know a little boy in Rwanda that I’d like you to meet.

ts, that’s your explanation for the RCC’s decline and your response to the blatant high level protection of child molesters? Blame it on the ’60′s!
With defenses like that the RCC doesn’t need enemies.
And what in the article referred to rules and are you claiming a parallel between children vs. parents and people vs. “God”? That’s pretty lame since no parent has god-like powers nor the ability claimed for “God” to see the future, not to mention full control over producing us and deciding what is to happen to us during our lives and afterward.
No, if a parent had those powers he or she could be held fully responsible for what the child does, and if your “God” actually existed and had the powers you folks claim for it, it should be held fully responsible for what we do. After all it’s “God’s plan”.
So please spare us the lame analogies.

I knew this article would get all the anti-Catholic bigots out from under their rocks.
Why on earth are all of you so offended? Truthseeker was talking about Roman Catholicism, not necessarily to you personally, but to you in that you would understand why Roman Catholicism is set up the way it is.
If you’re not Roman Catholic, then why the foaming-at-the-mouth rage and hate? I say, you all say you fear intolerance from the RCC, but I say you all have shown me nothing BUT intolerance at the RCC. Every single article about the RCC it’s the same commenters saying the same old tired washed out phrases as if it was something new.
Please spare me your lame comments.

Anonymous poster,
I hope I never “foam-at-the-mouth rage and hate”. I certainly don’t feel that way in my heart. I can only speak personally, but I truly believe that the RCC has done a great deal of damage in the world. I recognize that it has done considerable good as well, but it is my opinion based on my understanding of history and my own personal observations that its net impact has been detrimental to the good of our species our planet and collective spirit.
It is my aim to call people to think for themselves, and it is to my benefit when people do the same for me (as many posters here, including some very intelligent, learned and considerate folks with very different opinions from my own have done).
If you can point to an instance where I present intolerance rather than an opinion (impassioned though it maybe), please do so and you will have my humblest apologies. Otherwise, please try embracing the challenge presented by the consideration of ideas in the absence of the notion that you dare not consider that which you have not been instructed to accept as truth.
Peace.

|, you complain way too much and yet give no defense for the RCC’s offenses.
Many in their hierarchy, including probably PB himself, are guilty of covering up child molestation and moving the molesters to where they can and do molest again.
Effective birth control is vital for a lot of people around the world and many need condoms to protect themselves and the RCC opposes both.
Many women and families need abortions but the RCC fights tooth and claw to prevent everyone, including non-Catholics, from getting them. Yet historically the RCC has had very changing proclamations about how serious abortion was. E.g. Pope Gregory XIV declared abortion was not murder till after quickening which took place 116 days into pregnancy.
The RCC has many teachings, some of them valuable, but when it comes to politics all those teachings but anti-abortionism drop away.
And so forth. I could go on and on about how the RCC is bad for society. No doubt you could make some claims as to how it’s good for society but instead you yammer about bigotry. It’s not bigotry, it’s facts.
And since the article is about the RCC losing members and I pointed out how the shielding of molesters among the clergy has been widely reported but the article didn’t mention it (amazing!) it was very pertinent. I’d think a lot of RC’s would in fact have known of such molestations in their parish which might explain why they are former RC’s now.

I am facinated that the article didn’t menition the sexual abuse scandal. How can one evaluate the current standing of the Roman Catholic Church without even mentioning the scandal that leapt into the public dialogue six years ago?
Without a truly honest approach to this scandal, the church remains an unhealthy, dangerous institution. I believe it will continue to shrink until it submits to true transparent investigations, accepting real responsiblity for crimes against children. Truth and Reconciliation forums like those held in South Africa are the only way forward.

nnmns and Roland:
Your posts said much if not all of what I was thinking in response to No name and Truthseeker. To repeat them will not be necessary. Thanks!

In response to all of the above comments, let me begin. In the defense of the Catholic Faith, which I hold dearly, I am obligated to respond to such comments as the ones posted.
“People are leaving (IMO, even though the article has a fellow who doesn’t think so) because of the church telling them that birth control is wrong, divorce is wrong, terminations are wrong, etc. Smart folks either chose another way to worship or get the heck out of all religion!”
On birth control, it is wrong. And not even just morally. Just examine the facts: Many women are at an increased risk for many serious health problems, a main one being blood clots. Many have died or now have serious, lifelong health problems, and the numbers are growing. Be honest with yourself. People today are just using the term “It’s for my protection” as a guise. The real reason is so they can lust without conscience, consequence, or moral obligation. Cause isn’t that what its all about these days. People say they want freedom; Freedom from moral responsibility, freedom from all responsibility. But this is not freedom my friends, this is an invitation to a wide range of addictions and enslavements. It is through discipline, from training ourselves to have self-control and to be responsible, that we can be truly free. Just look at our society today. Under the guise of personal conscience, many evils and abonminations have entered the world. Our civilization is deteriorating, especially our Western culture. So yes, birth control is wrong, for it is inhibiting the possible birth of a human being. Don’t talk to me about “protection,” self-control and abstinance is what you need.
Divorce is NOT wrong!!! While it is an extremely unfortunate state of uffairs that a married couple find themselves unable to continue, and have tried every help they can to save their marriage and it didn’t work, so they divorce. Bad marriages happen, and the Church recognizes this. People are completely allowed to divorce. Just understand, the Catholic perspective of divorce is simply that the couple separate and go their own ways, but they are still, eternally married. (The only exception would be to get an annulment. (((This means that the marriage was never valid))) Example, a husband fails to live up to his vows he made on the altar, or he was not honest when he made his vows, an annulment can sometimes be obtained, although it is rather rare. This is mostly due to the fact that most couples seek counseling and save their marriage. When an annulment is given, the couple is no longer held by their vows and can seek out another spouse or live out another vocation.
On abortion, or termination, which is actually a more accurate term, since you are terminating, or ending, the life of another human being, one with a soul and who deserves to live. Search the internet for videos on abortion, ones showing abortions actually taking place. I garrentee it will bring even a cold hearted person to tears. It is an absolute abonination that our country has legalized it. It is murder. Then you say, but what about rape? For such situations, there is counselling and free medical treatment available. If it is a young person especially, child adoption is the best option, not murder. They don’t need “Birth control and condoms,” they need self control. “Many women and families need abortion”. Wrong. they to practice abstinance before marriage. They need prayers and support, not abortion.
“As to not having enough “footsoldiers” …did the RCC ever stop to think that is because they won’t allow priests to marry, women priests and several other out of date mandates doesn’t encourage chosing to be in the priesthood or being a nun.”
The Church is not one to bend or “Change with the times”. As much of our society decays, the Church stands firm. Priests practice celebacy because they are following Christ’s example. They are married to Church. That is their vocation. The Church does not allow women to become a priest because it is not thier calling. Don’t lecture me about Woman’s rights and all that. This isn’t about that. Its about following the Bible, following Jesus Christ and His teachings A woman’s journey to holiness takes a different, and sometimes greater road. The Blessed Virgin Mary is a shining example of womanly holiness. The Church is a strong supporter of vocations to the religious life, the problem is getting to the youth, the next generation.
On child molestation: The Catholic Church is not covering up anything. If you wan’t to make such a comment I suggest you get some proof to back it up. Again, we are not covering up anything, the problem is just diminishing because of the Church’s immediate and strong diciplinary action against those molesters. On average, Child molesting priests are less than one percent, approaching nil. You can find tons of good, strong Catholic priests. Most are not like that. On the other hand, name to me just one crooked televangelist who is not a Protestant. The sexual abuse scandal is no longer a major issue. Ohh, just think about it. With all the junk going on around the world, (most of it worse) the Catholics are always picked out. Hmmm, that doesn’t seem like tolerance to me. Think about it.
Peace and GOD BLESS,
LoneCivilian

In response to all of the above comments, let me begin. In the defense of the Catholic Faith, which I hold dearly, I am obligated to respond to such comments as the ones posted.
“People are leaving (IMO, even though the article has a fellow who doesn’t think so) because of the church telling them that birth control is wrong, divorce is wrong, terminations are wrong, etc. Smart folks either chose another way to worship or get the heck out of all religion!”
On birth control, it is wrong. And not even just morally. Just examine the facts: Many women are at an increased risk for many serious health problems, a main one being blood clots. Many have died or now have serious, lifelong health problems, and the numbers are growing. Be honest with yourself. People today are just using the term “It’s for my protection” as a guise. The real reason is so they can lust without conscience, consequence, or moral obligation. Cause isn’t that what its all about these days. People say they want freedom; Freedom from moral responsibility, freedom from all responsibility. But this is not freedom my friends, this is an invitation to a wide range of addictions and enslavements. It is through discipline, from training ourselves to have self-control and to be responsible, that we can be truly free. Just look at our society today. Under the guise of personal conscience, many evils and abonminations have entered the world. Our civilization is deteriorating, especially our Western culture. So yes, birth control is wrong, for it is inhibiting the possible birth of a human being. Don’t talk to me about “protection,” self-control and abstinance is what you need.
Divorce is NOT wrong!!! While it is an extremely unfortunate state of uffairs that a married couple find themselves unable to continue, and have tried every help they can to save their marriage and it didn’t work, so they divorce. Bad marriages happen, and the Church recognizes this. People are completely allowed to divorce. Just understand, the Catholic perspective of divorce is simply that the couple separate and go their own ways, but they are still, eternally married. (The only exception would be to get an annulment. (((This means that the marriage was never valid))) Example, a husband fails to live up to his vows he made on the altar, or he was not honest when he made his vows, an annulment can sometimes be obtained, although it is rather rare. This is mostly due to the fact that most couples seek counseling and save their marriage. When an annulment is given, the couple is no longer held by their vows and can seek out another spouse or live out another vocation.
On abortion, or termination, which is actually a more accurate term, since you are terminating, or ending, the life of another human being, one with a soul and who deserves to live. Search the internet for videos on abortion, ones showing abortions actually taking place. I garrentee it will bring even a cold hearted person to tears. It is an absolute abonination that our country has legalized it. It is murder. Then you say, but what about rape? For such situations, there is counselling and free medical treatment available. If it is a young person especially, child adoption is the best option, not murder. They don’t need “Birth control and condoms,” they need self control. “Many women and families need abortion”. Wrong. they to practice abstinance before marriage. They need prayers and support, not abortion.
“As to not having enough “footsoldiers” …did the RCC ever stop to think that is because they won’t allow priests to marry, women priests and several other out of date mandates doesn’t encourage chosing to be in the priesthood or being a nun.”
The Church is not one to bend or “Change with the times”. As much of our society decays, the Church stands firm. Priests practice celebacy because they are following Christ’s example. They are married to Church. That is their vocation. The Church does not allow women to become a priest because it is not thier calling. Don’t lecture me about Woman’s rights and all that. This isn’t about that. Its about following the Bible, following Jesus Christ and His teachings A woman’s journey to holiness takes a different, and sometimes greater road. The Blessed Virgin Mary is a shining example of womanly holiness. The Church is a strong supporter of vocations to the religious life, the problem is getting to the youth, the next generation.
On child molestation: The Catholic Church is not covering up anything. If you wan’t to make such a comment I suggest you get some proof to back it up. Again, we are not covering up anything, the problem is just diminishing because of the Church’s immediate and strong diciplinary action against those molesters. On average, Child molesting priests are less than one percent, approaching nil. You can find tons of good, strong Catholic priests. Most are not like that. On the other hand, name to me just one crooked televangelist who is not a Protestant. The sexual abuse scandal is no longer a major issue. Ohh, just think about it. With all the junk going on around the world, (most of it worse) the Catholics are always picked out. Hmmm, that doesn’t seem like tolerance to me. Think about it.
Peace and GOD BLESS,
LoneCivilian

“If those who have been fortunate enough to have received the faith do not cherish it, then perhaps it is better for them to search elsewhere. Be certain God will not let those who are worthy go astray. It is not easy to be a Catholic, but the rewards are eternal.” – Vin Terricola
I am a cradle Catholic who doesn’t believe in all the Church teaches. That does not make me unworthy. It is not up to the Church to decide if I am unworthy. I will have eternal rewards whether I take birth control or not, or whether I go to confession or not. I cannot take seriously all that is expected of a “good Catholic” when the church is not what Christ intended at its “founding.” I believe that the disciples were told to spread the word and works of Christ; I’m not sure how it evolved into not eating meat on Fridays. The Church has so many caveats (no birth control, no divorce, etc) to its beliefs that it forgets the most important thing for any church and any person.
Jesus said “love one another.” I work hard every day to be a person of love. I try my best not to judge what is in another’s heart. I live in faith. It isn’t given to me, I choose it.

lc, you’ve obviously bought into the RC beliefs and then into the propaganda they use to excuse them. You can believe what you want but you should know the propaganda is just that, not facts.
Sure there are dangerous aspects to birth control, but far less dangerous than, say, driving down the highway. And it gives people who want it freedom to enjoy sexuality with others without fear of pregnancy, which is far more dangerous and in some cases without fear of disease. You may choose to live a celibate life before marriage but that’s your choice and not one a lot of people make. In fact, practically speaking, most people can’t do it and never have. So birth control is a very good thing. Don’t use it if you choose but don’t deny it to others and don’t pretend trying to deny it to others has scientific basis.
Are Catholics allowed to divorce and get re-married in the Church? It’s my impression they are not so it’s hard to say they can get a real divorce.
If you choose to believe a zygote or an embryo or even a fetus is a human being, again that’s your choice. A zygote is one cell. An embryo can be a small fraction of an inch long to maybe an inch. Fetuses grow into babies, but over months. I see this as the sperm and egg combination slowly turning into a baby and, in line with Roe v. Wade the further along it is the more right the state has to protect them. My thinking is, to some extent, consistent with that of various popes, like Pope Gregory XIV who declared abortion was not murder till after quickening which took place 116 days into pregnancy.
Now even for those who think it is a human many feel the mother and perhaps the family have more rights than it does. I could go into why I do but I’ll forgo that unless I’m contested. And of course often a woman has an abortion for one reason or another then goes on to have a wanted child later she can care for. Abortion can be a very good thing.
“The Church does not allow women to become a priest because it is not thier calling.”
And that’s determined how? But I’m willing for the RCC to keep women and married men out because it will hasten its decline. On the other hand having them would protect the children still in those sexless priests’ hands somewhat.
As for coverups, just go here and read an article or two. Or explain why so many dioceses are paying so much in settlements. If you believe they didn’t hide it you must be capable of believing anything.

LoneCivilian,
If I may challenge you on some of your points:
“The real reason is so they can lust without conscience, consequence, or moral obligation.”
No, it is so adults of different genders can have sex without producing offspring. Mutually consensual sex between adults is a a wonderful and healthy expression. More to the point, it gives WOMEN control of their own reproductivity, while allowing them to also enjoy sexual expression. What could possibly be wrong with this…..unless it was that you wanted that control for yourself?
“The Church does not allow women to become a priest because it is not thier calling. Don’t lecture me about Woman’s rights and all that. This isn’t about that. Its about following the Bible,”
How could you possibly know more about women’s calling than women do? And if following the bible infringes on women’s rights, then the issue is about women’s rights whether you choose to dismiss the point or not. If I attack you and then say, “this is not about hurting you, its about practicing my pummeling skills” would that make any sense to you?
“The Blessed Virgin Mary is a shining example of womanly holiness”
Why? Because she never had sex, never took a position of authority and kept her mouth shut most of the time? Tell me, how is she an example of “womanly holiness”? what scripture did she provide? What were her commandments, beattitudes or parables? Whom did she heal? What miracles did she perform other than sexless reproduction? Your shining example of womanly holiness is nothing less than a powerless, mute and affectless drone. That, my friend, is EXTREMELY sexist.
I’m going to stop here, LoneCitizen. Please consider that you are only repeating what you have been told by your masters. You can choose to be a “sheep” or a member of a “flock” if you choose.
Or you can choose to be a human being….and think for yourself.

In response:
I am not sexist. I respect women extremely for all that they go through in daily lives. When I mande that point, it was simply to make sure you didn’t think I was and bring up the point. Looks like that one turned around on me, huh? What I meant was that women are not always called to do everything men do. Women and men are different, and God calls them to different vocations. While their are some vocations they both share, (marriage, single life, religious life) Only men are called to the priesthood. This is how Christ designed it. We do not have to question it, or say that it is sexist. We simply accept it as God’s Will. Please understand that I am not sexist!!! Women are simply just not meant to be priests. Its that simple. To think that women are sopossed to do everything men do is sexist. Please, Catholic women out there, back me up here!!! I am not caught up in that old-fashioned thing about women “not being able to vote, work, and must stay at home”. To say so would be rather silly. Ohh and about Mary, your comments are innaccurate. Pick up a Bible. A real one, you know, without 7 books missing.
My main pet/peve with non-Catholics is that most of them think that we just listen to whatever the Church teaches like dumb oxes and don’t believe things for ourselves. I am a Catholic because I believe in what the Church teaches, and what my conscience tells me. I read the Bible every day, and challenge everything the Church says. In this way, I have deepened my faith. The Church can back up everything it teaches. They don’t spoonfeed it to me, I accept it as a logical conclusion after deep reflection and prayer and believe it. If I choose to agree with a Church that is over 2000 years old, over the first intellectual liberal with smart ideas that passes by, I will. I believe that the Church is iffalible in matters pertaining to religion, or moral ethics. BUt that doesn’t mean that I don’t challenge it. My beliefs are my own, as are yours. Just stop making the assumption that we all follow whatever the Church teaches without regard to our consciences. You do this solely because you think that you are right. Because you are “right”, and we are not stupid, you assume that we must be following the Church with complete disregard for what our conscience tells us. Have you ever truly considered that you might be wrong? No matter what you say, (unless you were not raised by birth in your present faith,) I highly doubt it.
Peace and God Bless (I really mean that),
LoneCivilian

“If I choose to agree with a Church that is over 2000 years old, over the first intellectual liberal with smart ideas that passes by, I will.”
Of course for a lot of that time it would cost you your life to let it be known you disagreed with that church. That doesn’t speak well for its willingness to participate in the marketplace of ideas.
“I believe that the Church is iffalible in matters pertaining to religion, or moral ethics. BUt that doesn’t mean that I don’t challenge it.”
Pardon me if I suspect you don’t challenge it very hard.

LoneCitizen-
As a thinking person, I am obligated to respond to your comments.
If you believe birth control is wrong…fine, don’t use it. If the RCC is against birth control…fine, state that the RCC is against birth control. But, please do not infringe upon the rights of individuals to utilize birth control if that is the decision they make.
Remember, not everyone believes birth control is morally wrong…but, if you do…fine.
As far as health concerns….you do realize that women die every year during child birth….don’t you?
As, to sex. If you want to abstain…great, abstain. I personally have always exercised great self-control in relation to sex. I have never had sex with anyone with whom I did not want to have sex and/or who did not want to have sex with me.
If you do not want to have sex. That is your right. Again, please do not infringe upon the right of the rest of us to make our own decisions on when and with whom to have sex. Do you have a lot of people ranting at you to have sex? If you do…and, don’t wish to….just say “no”.
Of course being responsible is important. That to me goes without saying. IMO, it is important to be responsible while driving, eating, teaching our children, paying bills, etc. Being responsible is important in all aspects of life.
FYI, the RCC has been suggesting that society/our culture has been deteriorating since at least the third century.
Divorce is a serious decision that should be considered carefully by the two people invovled.
If the RCC want to keep divorced people out of their churchs…fine. I do think the church looses a little bit of credibility on the divorce issue with their annulment thing. Seriously, have you ever actually looked closely at the this. Anyone who appears humble and contrite can get an annulment. A large donation to the church can speed the process.
On abortion, again, if you do not wish to have one…don’t! If you wish to counsel others…and, they are willing to listen of their own free will…great! Again, please do not infringe upon the individual right of a woman to make her decision. Should options be made available for any woman wishing an abortion….absolutely!
On the topic of married priests/celibacy you said: “The Church is not one to bend or “Change with the times”. That may be true. So, what does it bend on? The RCC had married priest/bishops up until about the year 385. Then again from about the 1200′s until almost the 1500′s. You realize there are a lot of married RCC priests currently…don’t you? Further, the Pope is head of 23 Catholic chruches….of which the RCC is one. Many of the other 22 freely allow priests/bishops to marry. So, your story of why priests must remain celibate is not really credible.
If the RCC wants to discriminate against females by not permiting them to be priests/bishops/popes…fine. But, please do not blame women for the churchs decision to discriminate. You said: “The Church does not allow women to become a priest because it is not thier(sic) calling. Its about following the Bible, following Jesus Christ and His teachings A woman’s journey to holiness takes a different, and sometimes greater road.“. Please show me even one verse where Our Lord says females should not be priests/bishops/popes.
On child molestation nnmns has already covered that very well.
“Ohh, just think about it. With all the junk going on around the world, (most of it worse) the Catholics are always picked out. Hmmm, that doesn’t seem like tolerance to me. Think about it.”
Please, asking someone to stop, who is beating you with a Bible….is not intolerance. I am always taken back on the number of Christians that claim martyrdom. As Christians, we are called to follow the teachings of Christ…not, follow him into martyrdom.
IMO, the Catholic Church and most others are loosing members in the west because people are no longer readily accepting being lied to.
From the article: “The Church is falling behind,” said Deck, executive director of cultural diversity for the bishops. “We don’t have enough foot soldiers.”
IMO, there are not enough footsoldiers because authenticity of the Catholic Church seems solid as a hologram.
Peace!

LoneCivilian:
Much of what I think has been expressed above by nnmns and Roland. However as a woman, I find it hard to understand why anyone would say there should be no birth control, just use abstinence, until you marry. And if you choose NOT to marry, you (men and women) should remain without any sex? Some people actually don’t marry. Does abstinence also include married couples who don’t happen to want to take a chance on getting pregnant every time they have intercourse? Don’t give me the Catholic roulette bit….lots of unplanned kids born with that”natural method”. Women are not just around for making babies. And the excuse about the blood clots etc. That happens rarely, and only if there are circumstances that the woman shouldn’t have taken the pill anyway. Also, many kinds of birth control besides the pill. Condoms perhaps? No blood clots there. Also IUD’s.
As to abortion, not the churchs (or governments) job to tell any woman to have a child if a woman decides she needs one. How many children are dead or abused because he/she wasn’t wanted and that was taken out on the child? And to tell a woman she should carry a child conceived through rape because the church will help her? Give me a break! The church isn’t going to carry the rape child for 9 months and then give birth to it! Morning after pill, and RU486 should be available at every hospital and doctor’s office. Women are in charge of their own bodies…no church should be.
Divorce? Wait forever for Benny to say “oh, you really weren’t married anyhow, so now you can get married again.” What I like is an annulment that is granted to a couple with children. What does that make the children in the “eyes of the church”? I know a couple of Catholic women who just got a regular legal divorce, rather than wait for the pope to decide that it was “never a marriage”. How antiquated is that?
You said that you don’t think women should just stay home,and not work outside the home and not vote etc. However you said you don’t think women should be allowed to use birth control (men shouldn’t either, right?)or have sex before they are married, or be allowed to have a needed abortion. This is liberation for women? If they are having babies everytime they physically can, how liberating is that???? Isn’t that a bit of a contradiction?
Fortunately the exception to some Catholics I taught with for 10 years in a Catholic school. They believed in birth control…and divorce, in fact one of them was divorced and didn’t go through the pope. (had 2 children)
Virgin Mary an example of women’s holiness? Why? She made a good story heroine to be the mom to a divinely conceived child!
Christ may have decided that only men should be priests. That would be the male domination thing. The RCC IS a male dominated society still. Maybe JC would think it is about time to think that women could actually serve the church as well as men…in 2008! And that priests could be married and still do their jobs…just like ministers and priests in other churches.
You are obviously happy with what the RCC has “taught” you. 2000 years, IMO, the RCC needs to get real.

pagansister-
I think it pretty obvious from the example of the Virgin Mary that the vocation of women is to give birth. If God wanted women to do other things…such as lead churchs….God would have made women capable of doing other things. As far as the RCC being a male dominated society. Well, that is how JC wanted it. So, who are we to argue?
Just kidding!
The argument that women are equal..they just are not capable of doing some things becomes more ridiculous each time I see/hear it.
The blaming God for an individuals choice to be prejudice, discriminatory, and bigoted becomes more pathetic each time I see/hear it.
The article addresses the fact that the RCC is losing members. After reading some of the above posts….is it any wonder?
Peace!

Amen, Brother JohnQ.

LC,
I believe that you believe that you are not sexist. I believe that you don’t want to be sexist. But its very difficult for me to reconcile RC doctrine with gender equality, and since you align yourself with said doctrine, you seem to be in a bind.
For example, per your assertions regarding Mary. I’ve read the KJ Bible cover to cover. I don’t recall ever reading Mary’s great revelations/teachings/preachings/sermons to the people of God. In fact, I think the notion of Mary speaking her mind freely and powerfully from some mountain top would be “unseemly” to most Roman Catholics. Please point me as to Mary’s contributions to RC doctrine or dogma. I am prepared to be wrong.
Consider that in many other faiths goddesses wield incredible power. they teach, heal, perform miracles, make crops fertile, fight back when wronged. They are bold and beautiful and shapely and seductive and fierce. They command worship. Just like the gods. That would be a religion that does not promote sexism. Do you see my point?
I believe that you are genuine in your faith and I am willing to believe that you question your teachings. As for my willingness to do the same, my faith REQUIRES that I come to my own conclusions and challenge them CONSTANTLY. One of the conclusions to which this has led me, is that what I believe is necessarily right only for me. Someone else can have a different set of beliefs and be equally right. In fact, I am most heartened when I come to realize the ways in which different faiths use different symbols, allegories and rituals to come to similar conclusions. This holds true even for Catholicism which I (personally) consider to be among the least evolved of all modern faiths. I was born and raised RCC. I went to RC schools. I was even an altar boy! To answer your question, have I ever questioned my beliefs: yes, I did and do. This is why I am no longer Catholic. If my discussions with you strengthen your faith, then I am glad…..I did you a service. If I break you free of your spiritual bondage, better still.
Goddess Bless You, too!

I just had a visit from a wonderful nun trying to help some Vietnamese people who have many needs she explained to me many of them are Buddhists. We will partner to house, train and feed them. Catholic Christians have and are doing much good in the world. If it is about doing well I find that the Catholic Christians have done as a whole, a lot more good then most of the groups who condemn them. It’s one thing to mouth off and complain, but it is a whole different level to good out and do good. I’m not Catholic but my hat is off to the undying love that creates a mother Theresa. Sexism is mostly a selfish whiney do nothing that replaces a selfless do something.

cknuck,
Ugggh. Nobody ever said all catholics are evil, or that no catholic ever did any good. Mother Theresa was incredibly selfless and so are many priests and nuns. You are engaging an age-old-trick; the circumventing of an intellectual argument of generalities by diverting attention to specifics.
Stipulated: Catholics have built orphanages, hospitals, engaged relief efforts, fed the poor, comforted the weak, many, many good things. Many (indeed most) catholics are good people.
That does not make it OK to teach people that they are inherently evil, that they are sheep, that sex is to be avoided except for producing more catholics, to use guilt fear and shame as a means of manipulation, to rape children, force women into submissive roles, burn libraries, and cover it all up.
As to your definition of sexism, I don’t even no what point you’re trying to make. I have a wife and a daughter, both of whom I love beyond compare. I am working for a better world for them than one prescribed by the RCC. For that I make absolutely no apologies.

Back to the topic of the article…..
I have met many Catholics/former Catholics who have left the church. There are as many stories and there are people.
Many leave because they want a “hipper” service that has video presentations, bands, modern music, etc… like the very large and growing “Christian”/Church of Christ/evangelical style congregations that are being started around here. Those usually follow a belief system that is based on a literal interpretational of the Bible and “rule” based once you delve into the bible studies, etc..
Others I know have left because of how the “feel” about their congregation, fellow parisioners, priest, or school. In listening to their stories, many times they have had personality differences with a person in the parish, the principal of the school, the coordinator of religious education, the priest, etc…. Sometimes they have legitimate criticism about how they were treated and other times not. So they slowly disengage from parish life and eventually they decide the don’t want to bother with it.
Some Catholic friends have joined another faith community because of the person they married. Usually their spouse felt more deeply about their faith tradition. The Catholics usually feel that the whole family being at the same church together is more important. With that said I have two friends who have recently joined the Catholic Church after being married to a Catholic for 15 years. I greatly respect them for only joining when their faith journey brought them to that point and not just because they married a Catholic.
I also have some friends who have left the Catholic Church because they disagree with some of the basic beliefs of the church they were raised in. I pray for them that they find what they are looking for on their spiritual journey.
But I must say – that I have not met one person who chose to leave the Catholic Church because of the pedophile priest scandal that hit the church. Most say – that could happen in any religious group, they know some great priests who are doing good work, etc… Most Catholics I know are very mad about the bishops who covered up the problem. It makes them cynical about the heirarchy and structure of the church. But, like me, it doesn’t change what they believe about the bible, the sacraments, the eucharist, and their core Catholic beliefs. I wish some of the politics wasn’t there but my faith journey, which includes questioning what I was taught, has brought me to a stronger place in my faith so I continue on the journey!
Peace today – and openness to understanding other’s points of view!
CM

I think CM raises some good points about the pedophile scandals. I’m not a Catholic, but it seems to me that anyone who actually believes in Catholic doctrine would be very hesitant to leave the Catholic Church over something like corrupt leadership, because the Church itself is more primal than any of the fallible humans who lead it any given time. After all, it’s the body of Christ, and even if some leaders bring corruption, it’s still the same body of Christ.
Of course, there are many Catholics who don’t strongly believe Catholic doctrine but have just been raised in a Catholic sub-culture, so I can understand fully why the scandals might motivate them to go looking elsewhere.

Roland I like how you accuse me of engaging in a ploy while you perform one of the oldest political ploys of all by personally attacking me to minimize the issues I brought up about the Catholic Church and the incredible amount of good they do. Many want to draw the focus to the sexual misconduct of some priest.
I would like to point out that few religious organizations can compare to the compassion of the Catholic Church.
As for teaching the world is evil, just look around, and how about teaching almost every kid how to kill through video games? If you were to make a video game about building hospitals and saving the poor and put it on sale next to any one of the popular violent games it would collect dust. Sex sells murder sells betrayal sells.
If I were Catholic I would never leave the church, when was the last time you heard of a pagan church helping or building or teaching?

“Many want to draw the focus to the sexual misconduct of some priest.”
PriestS. Lots of priests. But as you say that could happen anywhere, especially where some people are given respect automatically because of their positions and where children are taught those people have exceptional power or wisdom. But what’s really abhorrent about the RCC is that the priests who did those things were protected and moved to different parishes so they could prey again. And it was church policy that civil authorities not be notified. These horrors run right to the top of the RCC.
So yes, it does some good but it’s got evil people in it from bottom to top. And of course it wants to control the way we all live.
If you are so high on Catholicism why don’t you become one? No circumcision required. You already believe a lot of their fables. It shouldn’t be hard.

I second everything that nnmns said about the priests. And, I would like to add that this did not happen only at one or two churchs or even in only one or two dioceses. It was wide spread….nationwide…as international. Further, it happened for at least decades.
I absolutely believe that some catholics have done great things for humanity. That does not excuse the horrors of some priests and the church policy as a whole over the last ~2000 years.
Peace!

Here we have some fine posts and even some from little gods! WOW
Fact: The RCC and the rest of the Christian church IS the body of Christ!
Fact: It is made up of sinful people, some who work hard to be more like Christ and some who don’t care, and a lot in the middle!
Fact: Christ set up the church and somtimes we humans screw it up, and it seems some of you have read some of it’s history, good for you! Keep reading and seek some more truth.
Fact: Yes, we have had pedofile priests, bad, very bad. Yes, some bishops moved them around, very bad. There have been terrible consequences because of this, victums and families suffering the most.
Fact: We are called to love each other, forgive each other and sometimes to pick up our cross and participate in the sufferings of Christ.
A lot of you talk about choice, what kind of choice? Is it between right and wrong? How do you determine what is right and wrong? If you believe in the Christian God as the supreme being, and that he made us in his image, why wouldn’t a resonable person look to see what he has to say about life? Why did he create us? What does he expect of us? What is his plan?
All I can say, is that for me, I have always tried to find out what God has to say about living this life, it seems to me that his wisdom outshines the smartest amoungst us. How do you argue against love for one another, putting their interest above our own? Not pleasure for pleasures sake (our own gratification) but for the edification of the other? To protect an innocent life even in spite of the inconveniemce to your own wants and desires?
You know life is hard, but what do we do to make it easy for ourselves? How will we justify ourselves when we stand before our Creator?
God’s spirit be with you all and give you His wisdom.

truthseeker-
“…..why wouldn’t a resonable person look to see what he has to say about life? Why did he create us? What does he expect of us? What is his plan?”
Are you suggesting that the Christians who have posted on this article have not done this? Are you suggesting that the pagans and atheists who have posted have not asked themselves what their purpose and/or the purpose of life is?
“How do you argue against love for one another, putting their interest above our own?”
What, I have not read a post above that suggests that anyone is arguing against love for each other. I love even the posters with whom I usually disagree.
“Not pleasure for pleasures sake (our own gratification) but for the edification of the other?”
Me thinks you are mixing apples and elephants. IMO, as a Christian, there is nothing wrong with pleasure for pleasures sake. Self-gratification can be very fullfilling and enjoyable.
“To protect an innocent life even in spite of the inconveniemce to your own wants and desires?”
I not only go out of my way to protect human life (innocent or not) I go out of my way to make life enjoyable and rewarding for myself and others.
I am pretty lost as to what any of your post has to do with the aforemented article. With the possible exception of: “Christ set up the church and somtimes we humans screw it up, and it seems some of you have read some of it’s history, good for you! Keep reading and seek some more truth.”
Tiny detail, Christ did not “set up” the church. That has been the work of some humans. I am always seeking more truth. And, I will go out on a limb here and state that all the regular posters….even the ones I usually take exception with….are seeking more truth. Word to the wise…if you think that all truth will be found in history…or, at church….you will miss out on much.
Peace!

cknuck,
“……by personally attacking me.”
I NEVER attacked you, friend. I only questioned your postings. If you fail to see the difference I can’t help you. Perhaps (just perhaps) you are engaging a psychological defense strategy known as “victim identification” to avoid dealing with whateverf bothers you so much about my position.
“Many want to draw the focus to the sexual misconduct of some priest.”
Many have seen or experienced this abuse first hand. I am one of those people. Forgive me if I draw focus to what I feel is relevant. Pretending it is irrelevant does not make it so to the victims. i am saying this as gently as I can.
I would like to point out that few religious organizations can compare to the compassion of the Catholic Church.
I respect your opinion, but i don’t agree. What is clear to me is that no institution can claim as many attrocities. From the crusades, to sexual abuse, to the female holocaust to the systematic use of guilt, shame and fear to control people. You have never addressed any of these issues.
“As for teaching the world is evil, just look around, and how about teaching almost every kid how to kill through video games? If you were to make a video game about building hospitals and saving the poor and put it on sale next to any one of the popular violent games it would collect dust. Sex sells murder sells betrayal sells.”
Your point is?
“If I were Catholic I would never leave the church…”
Really? What if you were abused by a priest? Would you leave then? It really did happen to people you know? Do you think you would have remained a “sheep” had you been thusly “fleeced” by those you were taught to respect as pillars of morality and virtue? i’d love to hear your answer to this. I doubt you’ll have the courage.
“…when was the last time you heard of a pagan church helping or building or teaching?”
We don’t have churches, and the good people of the RCC have long since burned all of our temples to the ground. I have NEVER met a pagan or a witch who was not active in volunteer work, and I’ve met many. I have met many Catholics who do nothing more than sleep in church once a week and chuck a fiver into the collection plate, much of which goes towards lawyers or spindoctors to cover abuse scandals.
Blessed Be

“If you believe in the Christian God as the supreme being, and that he made us in his image, why wouldn’t a resonable person look to see what he has to say about life? Why did he create us? What does he expect of us? What is his plan?”
Presumably the priests and bishops and archbishops who perpetrated those things believe strongly in such a god as a supreme being, as does the Pope who was apparently also quite involved in keeping it quiet. And look what it did for them.
I think you’ll find a whole lot more morality in the Golden Rule than you’ll find trying to figure out what the Bible proposes or in the RCC.

I have an honest question about the RCC. In my 10 years teaching in a Catholic school, I never thought to ask it.
What does the Church mean when it says it is the “body of Chirst”?
I know that the communion wafer and wine is supposed to be the body and blood of Christ (which I have always thought was canniblistic) but how can an organization be a body unless it means that it is a group of folks that follow Christ and His teachings. Right?

Pagansister,
I have no authority to answer your question, but I do understand that a study of the etymology of “church” reveals “kirk” or circle.
Sound familiar?

nnmns as you said it could happen anywhere, from Disneyland to anywhere where kids frequent. It is a shameful thing but it does not define the Catholic Church no matter how you spin it.
Roland as I have never addressed anyone Ugggh I assumed it was a derogatory attack (silly me) I know enough Catholics that have had really positive experiences in their church life and were never molested by priest to know that drawing on the whole molesting priest thing is like yelling fire in a crowded movie. I can understand the tactic it does draw away from the good they do but you fail to address the lack of good your Pagan religion is doing in comparison.
I know some priest have done some bad things but that’s like saying because some people are bad they all should be eradicated, not smart.

Yes,Roland, sounds familiar!

“I know some priest have done some bad things but that’s like saying because some people are bad they all should be eradicated, not smart.”
|, you are ignoring the most vile part, the widespread coverups by high officials in the Church. Sure, in any organization some people are inclined to do bad things, though in many there have long been simple policies in place that would prevent most of them from happening, e.g. don’t go in a room with one kid and have the door closed. Common sense could have prevented a lot of those occurrences.
But in the RCC apparently policies like that were not in place in many parishes and they apparently weren’t put in place till much later. And anyway in most organizations extensive organized coverups like that would not have happened and probably would not have been possible.
A lot of vile things really are easier where unnatural faith is placed in certain people or even ways of acting.
Oh, and I’m not advocating eradicating any priests, just their jobs.

Cknuck,
“Roland as I have never addressed anyone Ugggh I assumed it was a derogatory attack (silly me)”
I see the source of the misunderstanding. It was not my intention to address you as “ugggh.”. It was meant as a literal expression of my dismay. I’ll discontinue this practice to avoid future misunderstandings.
“….the whole molesting priest thing is like yelling fire in a crowded movie.”
Well, again I disagree. The problem is systemic. It has infected the RCC like termites infect an old barn. Getting rid of one or two of the termites does not solve the problem, and neither does pretending that the problem does not exist. Either the problem is corrected earnestly and with conviction or the barn WILL collapse. The RCC has chosen the latter approach. The manner in which the abuse at my former church was swept under the rug and concealed from the congregation was absolutely mind-boggling. No one will ever know how many lives were affected. The RCC was interested in nothing but her own image and liability. Forgive me if I and others who have their eyes open wide enough to see what I have seen fail to see the RCC as a monument to principle and morality.
“….but you fail to address the lack of good your Pagan religion is doing in comparison.”
Not so! I can only offer my experience that every pagan/wiccan/earth-based person I can think of has made a PERSONAL commitment to volunteer work (quite remarkable, really.) I am no exception. But you must understand two things….we do not bow our knees before any authority behind which to claim collectively our contributions, nor are we great enough in number (just yet) to have made as significant an impact as we surely will. But as our numbers grow, I do believe that you will see the whole of the world change in its balance and compassion.
“I know some priest have done some bad things but that’s like saying because some people are bad they all should be eradicated, not smart.”
I never said, nor do I believe that anyone should be eradicated. I simply state my opinions and experiences and ask people to think for themselves. In fact, I would suggest that you have things quite backward. Eradication of the RCC is not a practice permitted by people with my beliefs…..eradication of people with my beliefs was the practice of the RCC.

If you want to see actual anti-Catholic bigotry check out Pastor John Hagee, who calls the Roman Catholic Church “The Great Whore,” an “apostate church,” the “anti-Christ,” and a “false cult system.”
Well Pastor Hagee has endorsed John McCain and McCain says he’s “very honored” and “very proud to have Pastor John Hagee’s support”.
When Farrakhan endorsed Obama, Obama repudiated him. McCain is proud of Hagee’s endorsement.

nnmns-
Actually, Minister Farrakhan did not endorse Sen Obama. He simply made some postive statements about him. But, you are correct, Sen Obama rejected Farrakan, saying: “I would reject and denounce” when referring to the Minister.
While there are many people with whom I disagree, I would be happy to sit down with most over them and discuss whatever over lunch. John Hagee is the exception. He makes my skin crawl.
John Hagee exemplfies the “God has all the same prejudices, discrimination, and bigotry as I….so, I must be right” type ministries. In other words, rather than take personal resposibility for his prejudice, he blames it on God.
I do not care whether or not an individual believes in God. However, I have no respect for people who blame God for their hate and fear.
The RCC has nothing on John Hagee except for opportunity. If reincarnation exists….John Hagee was probably Pope several times during the Inquisition.
Peace!

JohnQ, my error about the endorsement, and an important point; Farrahkan did not endorse Obama. But Obama would have none of any kind of his support anyway. Thank you.
But Catholics who see this should realize John McCain has happily accepted the endorsement of an Evangelical who thinks the RCC is “The Great Whore,” an “apostate church,” the “anti-Christ,” and a “false cult system.”

nnmns-
But Catholics who see this should realize John McCain has happily accepted the endorsement of an Evangelical who thinks the RCC is “The Great Whore,” an “apostate church,” the “anti-Christ,” and a “false cult system.”
Absolutely!
I don’t know whether Sen McCain sought Hagee’s endorsement…or, Hagee merely gave it. Either way, me thinks it is a mistep for McCain.
Peace!

The molestation claims are a “red herring” to always bring up, coming from non-catholic Christian Fundamentalists and atheists. I have worked a long time in claims for insurance companies, have seen the claims. The molesters are everywhere…Police Depts, The Jehovah Witnesses, Boy Scouts, Catholic Church, Mormons, all churches, schools, etc. Every time I used to have a claim, it was hush hush, coverup, etc, regardless of the institution. Shame causes that. We need to accept that Pedophiles exist, have a short in the wiring of the brain(scientific explanation will be found). The majority are heterosexually identifying married males. Also young blond teachers seem to do this. Until we realize that pedophiles need to be helped, possibly placed in their own special institution to live and work away from children, this will never end. Sin is sin. It is everywhere. Making the Catholic church the whipping boy for things that go on everywhere is unfair. We have Senators tapping the toe in bathrooms. Sex feels good, so people do it with many partners, sin is everywhere.

Republican, family-friendly senators tapping their toe in men’s rooms.
Hush-hush of such things, except what’s minimally necessary to protect the victim, is bad wherever it happens and I’ve no doubt it happens a lot of places but the organized effort to hide it is, to my knowledge, unique to the RCC. And if the whistle hadn’t been blown it would no doubt still be going on.
Now let’s talk again about actual anti-Catholic bigotry. Pastor John Hagee has often attacked the RCC, for instance calling it “the Great Whore of Revelation 17″. Hagee endorsed John McCain and McCain said yesterday he’s “honored” and “pleased” Hagee endorsed him.

Roland, eradication of people with RCC beliefs was also the practice of PAGANS in the Roman Empire until the 4th century. There were several officially sanctioned persecutions. Never forget that, either! Pagans are far from having no blood on their hands if you want to keep dwelling in history and keep bringing up all the past wrongs both sides have done.

pagansister, the RCC describes itself as the mystical “body of Christ”. By this, it refers to all of its members in canonical good standing as the Church militant. Souls in Purgatory are the Church suffering. Souls in heaven are the Church triumphant, but all are part of the mystical body of Christ. Christ is the head of the Church, of whom the Pope is his representative on earth. It is chiefly an analogy to describe the relationship of things.

“The Church militant”. That’s comforting.

nnmns, “militant” refers to being part of the fight to resist sin.

Thanks. Define “sin”.

Thanks, mystery poster, for the answer to my question. I had wondered about the term.