Blessing and peace to the new Bishop and to the Archbishop. May they sail with God’s Spirit at their back, and the hand of Christ at the helm, and the peace of God in their hearts. Just remember, when the cannon balls (or should that be canon-balls?) fly, there is no shame in ducking!

Within the TEC, the issue of gay clergy is becoming less and less of an issue……just as the topic of female clergy has.
There are of course those that will never accept gay clergy….just as there are those that still do not accept our female clergy and/or our female presiding bishop.
Regardless, progress moves on even when some do not accept change.
+Jeffrey Lee was a great choice to lead the diocese. And, our presiding bishop, Katharine Jefferts Schori is doing an outstanding job.
Peace!

His election made him one of 10 new bishops to take over a diocese this season. All are said to represent a new generation of leadership in the church that cares less about imposing a certain brand of theology on their flocks and more about finding consensus and common ground to serve the poor, heal the sick and evangelize.
And with that, the ECUSA becomes less and less of a church each day and more and more just simply a charitable organization (not that that’s a bad thing in and of itself of course). Believe whatever you want to believe is what the ECUSA says!

Quote: Lee said that regardless of where the Bishops fall on the theological spectrum, conversation during a meeting of the new American Bishops last month focused on building bridges rather than defending positions.
President Clinton after a Sou. Baptist meeting with a push for Unity, said “We must approach those who dsagree with an outstretched hand not a clenched fist”.
Good for these denominations for trying to be Christian with using logic and balance in disagreements.

The Episcopal church is continuing to do the right thing, under the leadership of bishop Jefferts Schori.
no-name poster:
“…..the ECUSA becomes less and less a church each day and more and more just simply a charitable organization…” Believe whatever you want to believe is what the ECUSA says!”
Actually it is becoming more and more what a church should be…a place for those seeking a place of worship, by including everyone, no matter what their sexual orientation…including the leaders.

The Episcopal church’s desire to include all people has incidentally resulted in their inclusion of sinful practice… they are less and less relevant as a true Christian body, and an example to other churches as to what happens when a denomination favors popular culture over orthodox Christian teaching. Give it a little more time and I’m sure they’ll proclaim even their “acceptance” of people who don’t even believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

Your definition of “sinful” certainly must be different than TEC and the Presbyterians, the Unitarian Universalists, the United Church of Christ to name a few.
The “sin” is in non-acceptance of all people.

“salvation depends on our theological correctness”
Salvation is the bases for Christian theology: just as the Bible predicts the church has lost its way and non-believers cheer on. Jesus said a lot about looking like the world.
It seems to me the TEC is pouring more money into gathering homosexual ordinations then serving the poor or healing the sick and the only thing they are evangelizing is homosexuality, and sexual immorality.

Lets all believe there is no sin at all, that way we can all rape, pillage, and blunder and all along have God’s blessing! Since you all want to live in a world like that, then have at it!

no-name poster: 2/4/08,8:48 PM:
I think the rape, pillage, and plundering as been done already, by the church, as forceful conversion techniques, with what those folks considered “God’s blessing.” After all, if folks didn’t believe in THE LORD, well, rape was fine, as was pillaging and plundering their homes, and towns. How many people were murdered because they didn’t believe as the church thought they should? Was that “theologically correct”? Would you consider that “sinful”? Really bad analogy, the plunder etc. stuff. Acceptance of all into the church has nothing to do with murdering innocent folks for not believing like some church thought they should.
Fortunately there are lots of churches to choose from…so you are free to stay in your untra-conservative, non-accepting church. BTW, the man made book you base your beliefs on, is full of violence and rape and pillage and plunder. Great adventure book, but not a great source of advice for living.
Blessed Be.

I think it’s both comical and very sad that most all of the Christians I associate with (who are not Episcopalian) think of the Episcopal church as the “gay” church. Their reputation has become not that they are all-accepting, bona fide practictioners of what Jesus’ true message was, but rather their one big thing is that they are super enthusiastic about having gays involved at every level.

When will The Episcopal church start reading the Bible? What God condemed in the old He condemned in the new.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Rev Smith-
We Episcopalians do read the Bible…let me assist you with some verses you may have over-looked.
John 13:34-35
34A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Matthew 7 : 1-3
“Do not judge or you too will be judged. For in the same way judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of saw dust in your brother’s eye, but pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
Matthew 22:36-40
36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[1] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[2] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Peace!

Dude, you’re right, it says “love one another,” but there’s no caveat that says that part of loving one another includes whole-sale acceptance of one anothers’ sins as though there’s no lifestyle God wouldn’t approve of. And you seem to have ignored the portions of the text that allow for a church to rebuke (not to “judge”) believers who stray so far off the path. And finally, Jesus’ message of love of course applies, but you people always seem to think that loving everyone like you love yourselves inlcudes loving all their dirty habits, nasty idiosyncrasies, and their OBVIOUS SINS. Ya’ll seem to be just as selective in what portions of the Bible you refer to as your opposition.

As I read A.R.’s quotes, that activity was all “God-given” so what’s the problem?
And if a church is to oppose everything opposed in the Bible, what about all that divorce? I’m told Jesus hated that, but protestant churches are full of divorced people and even the RCC finds ways to accomplish it. What hypocrisy!

Shane-
Duce, I am rebuking Rev Smith for straying from the path. That is why I provided him chapter and verse of parts of the Bible he seems to be skipping over.
I can not condone what Christ clearly condemns. Prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination are not a part of Our Lord’s teachings.
If prejudice-supportive Christians wish to quote Biblical verse that has been twisted over the centuries to condemn some of God’s children (read lgbt people)…then, so be it. But understand that there are Christian leaders such as +Lee and presiding bishop Jefferts Schori as well as millions of Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, members of the UCC, UU’s, pagans, atheists, and so on that are not going to perpetuate the prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination….nor, the mindless adherance to twisted Biblical verse.
Peace!

Just about anything can be “proved” by looking at the right chapter and verse from the Bible. Having said that, the Bible has been slanted and copied and had verses left out and some added, more than numerous times to fit the particular writer’s mood at the time. Hello! 2000 years is a long time and fortunately a lot has changed since then….so use that Bible as a partial guide,not as an exclusive guide.(if you are a Christian, of course). Too many contradictions to be THE guide for a life,IMO.
No Christian actually KNOWS what their God or His kid would say about same gender relationships or women leaders in the church (Mary Magdaline anyone?….put down by the church as a prostitute because she was a woman with power in the “12″ dudes that followed Christ about..couldn’t have that!) He would accept women leaders, since He had Mary M. in His group. (this opinion from a former Christian)
As a former Christian, I feel that Jesus would have no problem with those who’s life partner happens to be the same gender. With all the hatred that was shown to Jesus and His group when He was preaching things that were considered “new” at that time, why would HE inflict that on His followers just because of their sexual orientation?( Who knows, he probably had a few in his intimate circle. Could be.) He preached love..not hate.
And for all that…it is 2008 and such stupidity on who someone loves is a waste of time. It’s February and Love is in the air.

Well we do know what “God’s Kid” said about marriage. And what His Kid said that His Dad meant about it. It is not a same-gendered insitution. And the Kid, said it was not to broken apart by mankind. The typical stance of the godless and ungodly, is the “that was then, this is now,” stance. That sounds a bit creepy. And certainly the Apostles presented that. And they were taught by Jesus.
Homosexuality is as old as mankind, and it’s not something that God’s people were supposed to do, even in the New Covenant. How is it “progressive” to input ancient sexual abominations in to the “modern” Church? And anyway, “a thousand years is like a day to the Lord.” The Apostles wrote to us, the day before yesterday. And of course, we see things HAVEN’T changed much since the Roman hedonistic times. Not one Apostle encouraged the Church to embrace homosexual sex within the Church. And of course Jesus and marriage is immutable. According to Jesus. The hatred is not coming from the Christians on same-gender sexual behaior. It is coming from the practioners and supporters of something inappropriate being inflicted onto and into the Christian Church.
It’s 2008, and the institution of same-gendered sex acts practiced by Greeks, Romans, Liberals and Progressives has no place in the Christian community.
How can God join what God would never join?
It is not the Christians, keeping “The faith delivered only once to the Saints,” that are the hateful and intolerant ones. Look to the Left for those people.
“And if a church is to oppose everything opposed in the Bible, what about all that divorce?”
So when does two wrongs make a right? I’ve been looking in my Bible since meeting my first Liberal-Progressive and I haven’t found it yet. I also seemed to have learned the same lesson in kindergarten. And, how many Divorce Pride Parades do you see in your city? Anyone using a sexual orientation to justify out-of-wedlock promiscuity? I see repentant and contrite divocees in my Church. None of which are held out as role models. EXCEPT the ones that were victims of their spouses adultery. Of course those people are innocent of any wrongdoing, even though they still feel bad.

“That’s one of the tragedies afflicting the church right now,” he said. “So many of us seem to think that salvation depends on our theological correctness.”
///
Call me old fashioned, but teling Jesus to shut up and sit down, strikes me as just a tad bit un-Christian.
Without the “correct theology” Jesus is not the Son of God, is not the Savior, was not resurrected, and is not coming back to judge the living and the dead. “Correct theology” was why the Apostles wrote the New Testament.
The above Anglican quote is where Liberal theology shows itself for the sham that it is. Proven of course, by “correct theology.” Not a surprise that it is not valued by Liberals and Progressives. Oil and water don’t mix either. Even when shaken and swirling together, it is still in two parts. Kinda like wheat and weeds growing in the same field.
Parables, gotta love ‘em. So much truth in a tiny package.

pagansister,
Raping and pillaging is an almost exclusive pagan war practice. The Vikings (for yet an easy example) raped and pillaged Christian societies for many, many, many years. It all stopped when they became Christians. Gotta a history book do ya’? Don’t even have to open a Bible for that truth to be told. And if you would . . . please point the places in the Gospel where raping and pillaging are to engaged in by “Christians?” Not even Gay theology has that in there (yet). Ignorance and not studying is no excuse for wrongdoing. Please, the passages if you will?

Donny:
“The typical stance of the godless and ungodly is “that was then and this is now” stance. That sounds a little creepy.”
THAT sounds a litte creepy????
How about “a thousand years is like a day to the Lord” and “the Apostles wrote to us the day before yesterday” ? Now THAT sounds a little creepy! Can you say “science fiction?”
“Not one Apostle encouraged the Church to embrace homosexual sex within the Church.” You believe everything you read in the book? You really have no way of knowing. 12 guys, led by a guy (which Christians seem to think never had sex or married in his 33 years…unlike Jewish tradition) sleeping and eating and traveling around together…who knows what went on?
“In 2008 and the institution of same gendered sex acts practiced by Greeks, Romans,Liberals and Progressives has no place in the Christian community”.
I agree that the Romans and Greeks included children in their same gendered acts…and that was wrong. But as for consenting adults and this day and time, who someone loves and is intimate with is no one’s business and many Christian communities include same gendered couples in their ranks as members and friends and leaders. As it should be. Obviously you will diagree and this won’t happen in your Christian community. That is your choice.
Blessed Be
As for divorce…that’s part of live…as folks sometimes have many reasons for parting…not just “adultry”.

Donny–
Have to take up for pagansister here. Becoming Christian had nothing to do with the end of the Viking invasions, and if you think that Christianity brought peace to Europe then you need to check that history book you referred pagansister to.

God bless the Episcopal Church, they are becoming more Christ-like each passing day.

‘”And if a church is to oppose everything opposed in the Bible, what about all that divorce?”
So when does two wrongs make a right?’
That’s all you can say? Your Big Guy proclaims against abortion, often I understand, and says nothing about homosexuality yet you abhor homosexuality, over and over in many cases, yet you have nothing to say about the divorces all around you and in your churches?

“Without the “correct theology” Jesus is not the Son of God, is not the Savior, was not resurrected, and is not coming back to judge the living and the dead.”
Good observation. And whatever myths you choose to believe it’s still true. There is no god, no children of gods, no resurrection and no judging of the dead.
Those are all dustballs from the floors of ancient religions that have never had shred one of proof. People only believe them because a) they were trained to as kids and/or b) they got in a bad way mentally and desperation led them to cling to foolish religion someone was peddling. None of that overturns the fact there’s no evidence for any god, let alone any of the Christian gods, anyplace outside your heads. No evidence.
The post above about “Two wrongs” is mine.

You know, whenever I hear that someone is a “born again Xian” or a “devout Xian”, etc., I just think that they would probably hate me because I’m not one of them. Not gay either, for that matter.
Then I come here and I know I’m right.
Thanks to the anonymous ones here (and Donny and the Rev.) for reminding me – again – that I need to fear Xian “love”.

Geez, you guys, I’m having a hard time trying to figure out who all is arguing what here. Seems like on the one side there are liberal/progressive Christians arguing for something in one way, and then there are the non-Christians arguing for the same thing in a different way. Where one side might have a hard time responding to orthodox Christian theology, the other side picks up the banner and bangs away at how Christianity is fiction anyways! It gives the impression of two separate teams with the same basic message, “being gay is awesome!” I read these forums once in a blue moon and hardly ever respond because it’s usually the same people with the same liberal viewpoints high-fiving each other over how nutz conservatives – either by faith or political position – really are. For the sake of attempting to add some small semblance of this entire website as being remotely balanced, I’ll throw in my two cents that this condoning of homosexuality is terrible, and represents a continuing assault on positive Christian morality. I’m profoundly saddened that episcopalians as a denomination fail to realize that they’re REALLY missing the mark in painting being gay as perfectly in sync with the path of Christ. Christ loves us all, but I sure as heck know that he hates my sins. Why are some wearing theirs as a badge of honor?

“being gay is awesome!”
I’d have said the message is “being gay is ok” but you all need to set up straw men in order to have something to knock down.

Shane of course being homosexuality active is not in sync with the path of Christ, but it is the direction the world is going in and the church is bending to the will of those outside of the will of God.
Homosexuality shortens the life span and the very practice is unhealthy physically, mentally and spiritually. The parts of the body used to complete the homosexual experience are just not built for the task they are put to. Resistant germs breed in the rectum as a result of the activity.
It is a sinful act according to the word of God; that may be why so many people outside of the of the church rally to promote the homosexual leadership in churches. It will in the end shorten the lifespan of the church.

“Every single one of them were against same-sex marriage and behavior. It is a freedom of choice to decide proper sexual behavior, and the Christians that wrote the New Testament, chose against promoting homosexuality.”
Well since Jesus isn’t recorded as having said word one about homosexuality and I dare say few if any of the apostles did (I claim no expertise on the
Bible; I have far better things to do with my time) that’s an unsupportable statement. But I think you nailed it by saying the Christians who wrote the NT chose against promoting homosexuality. Everything they wrote was a choice they made; no invisible hand of any god guiding them. (And any editing done later and choices of what writings to keep and which ones to dustbin were choices.) But they probably just never thought about mentioning homosexuality, like Jesus if we are to trust the Bible.

So whatever Jesus didn’t bother to cover in His short three year ministry is ok to do?
Try finding somewhere anywhere where Jesus promoted homosexuality or even said it was a good thing. Can’t do it huh? Seems like if it was natural or God created it Jesus would have mentioned it, oh at least once he would have said like “go out and men have sex with men.” Can’t find it in the bible huh?
But He did lift up one man one woman marriage as a God created purpose for man and woman. Did I say period?
Sounds like kids trying to get out of trouble, “well you never said we couldn’t”.

Donny:
Start with the Crusades, and the Inquisition…no rape or pillaging there? Right!
Bible violence abounds:
Deuteronomy 7:12–God orders the total destruction of 7 nations.
” 20:16–no one was to leave anthing alilve that breathes.
” 21:10-14–If a soldier found a female captive attractive
God allowed him to force marriage & therefore sex, better
known as rape.
Numbers 31:7,17-18—God orders Israel to initiate numerous wars of
aggression, killing all captive men and non-virgin women,
bringing any virgins into sexual slavery.
Joshua 6:21–Israelites told to kill every living thing…Battle of
Jericho
Exodus 21:15,17–A child who hits or curses his parents must be
executed.
Matthew 8:12–The children of the Kindom (the Jews) shall be cast out
into outer darkness: There will be weeping and gnashing of
teeth.
Mark 6:11–Any city that doesn’t “receive” the followers of Jesus will
be destroyed in a manner even more savage then Sodom &
Gomorrah.
Anything else?…Pagans and every other group on this earth have had their battles. The Christian ones just happen to be OKed by the Bible. However us “Pagans” have a rebe: Do as you will so long as it harms none”. What’s your’s? Pagans are accepting. Are you?

“So whatever Jesus didn’t bother to cover in His short three year ministry is ok to do?”
Let’s see. Three years, 1095 days, 17,520 hours (giving son of god 8 hours a night to sleep). Yes, I think if Jesus had cared about homosexuality he’d have found time to mention it.
Or if he forgot but your god really cared, being all-powerful he could have slipped it in later. So I’ve got to figure that, if the Bible and what most Christians believe about it is true, “God” doesn’t give a whit about homosexuality.

1. This is why I salute what our church, TEC is doing to bring equality to our great country. We are focused on the teaching of Christ….rather than the prejudices of mankind.
2. Here is link to
GLSEN and, from their website:
GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, is the leading national education organization focused on ensuring safe schools for ALL students.
Pretty scary sounding stuff….huh?
Peace!

Sorry, I left the following out of my above post:
1. This is why I salute what our church, TEC is doing to bring equality to our great country. We are focused on the teaching of Christ….rather than the prejudices of mankind.
2. Here is link to
GLSEN and, from their website:
GLSEN, or the Gay, Lesbian & Straight Education Network, is the leading national education organization focused on ensuring safe schools for ALL students.
Pretty scary sounding stuff….huh?
Peace!

JohnQ are you waving the kids like a banner? I personally believe not too much good can come from homosexual adoption. I believe that homosexuals like Rosie use kids to legitimize themselves.

cknuck, JohnQ is responding to typical (for here) homophobic attacks by pointing out the good things he in particular is doing. Then you come along with an inane statement like that.
Are you waving your bigotry like a banner?

cknuck:
What the heck is going to happen to children adopted by same gender parents?????? That statement of “not too much good can come from homosexual adoption” is a totally unfeeling statement meaning that just because someone happens to be a homosexual, they can’t love, and raise a child. Those children will be damaged by LOVE! Right and I’ll sell you a bridge in Brooklyn!
Why do hetersexual couples adopt children? Why do single people adopt children? Because they have a lot of love to give a child.
Perhaps it is better to let the “state” raise children. We’ve all seen how well that works. Must be better then (gasp!) a same gender couple raising a child. Certainly the “state” can give individual love an affection to them. Certainly going from foster home to foster home makes a child feel loved and cared for. NO! All that is bull. Children need love, and security. That isn’t possible in the “state” system.
Fortunately for the children, you aren’t running the adoption services. Too many kids out there need a home.

Shane, on the money!
“Christ loves us all, but I sure as heck know that he hates my sins. Why are some wearing theirs as a badge of honor?”

“Christ loves us all, but I sure as heck know that he hates my sins. Why are some wearing theirs as a badge of honor?”
And the Easter Bunny loves us all but sure as heck hates our propensity to eat meat.

Shane, some aren’t wearing their “sin” (as you call it) as a badge of honor. They are merely aware that their Christ loves them just the way they are, and doesn’t find them “sinful”.
BTW, I find the Christian word “sin” seems to be useful word for a whole lot of things that aren’t considered proper by the followers. It’s a great “catch-all” word. First, one must believe in “SIN!!” to make it a legitimate word.

My, my the responses to this article have covered everything from homosexual how-to to Viking invasions, adoption and scriptural critism. If I have learned nothing else, I have learned this. Argument does not convert people – loving, welcoming, and accpeting converts. These are the things we are called to do, and even cogent, well outlined, scripturally based argument ain’t on the list. Jesus calls us to love – without qualification, explanation, or equivocation. Any church that promotes this sort of commuunity and has opened their doors wide is on the right path. Anyone who believes it is their duty or privilege to close the door is basically locking themselves into a empty dark room – a tomb.

The definition for sin in the dictionary is: Doing wrong things. We all do wrong things, and we all do right things, but sin sounds so much 2nd century and scary!!

Hentrietta:
You’re right, the word “sin” sounds so much like the 2nd century.
Of course I agree that we all do wrong things and right things. No one is perfect and no one will ever be. It’s called being human.

The whole notion of sin is positively retro! It conjures up all sorts of medeival images.
Yet, there are still some problems in life for which we cannot find our own solutions. Certainly I don’t mean medical or electrical, computer/mechanical problems or other similar things. I tend to think about sin as those times when I was driving in Boston and could not, no matter how hard I tried and strategized and planned, to find my way from one place to another. I needed to ask for help. So sin becomes a problem for which a person must ask assistance. This kind of thing can take all forms. But usually you know it is a sin when some sort of hate (of other or self-loathing) are involved. Otherwise it is simply frustration or aggravation.
Sometimes it helps to attach a retro name to a modern problem. It won’t make it go away, but it does help a person realize they are not alone, are not the first, and will not be the last with their struggle. But sin is not the last word either. It is no accident that the Hebrews became knows as Israel, which means “Struggles with God”. As long as a person is involved in the struggle, sin has no lasting grip. And if “sin: scares you a little, that is good too. Fear is a good thing – it is like pain in that it requires immediate attention. Chronic fear, like chronic pain can be devastating. But continue to struggle and do not deaden yourself, and there may yet be hope and peace.
Wow, this sounds like a sermon. Too bad I won’t use it for one.

ScottR:
Don’t let the zealous Xians scare you off. I, for one, would like to read your comments on different discussions. They’re not to crazy about me and a couple of other regulars here either, but this site (B’net) is for all.
JohnQ:
Checked out the site you had posted above. Never heard of the group but I’m glad it exists and has for awhile. Thanks for mentioning it.

Oh really?

pagansister-
Don’t mention it….anything for you.
You realize I posted it in response to the earlier post that thankfully was removed.
I value all humans. I believe all have a right to their opinions and a right to share them.
I also believe that it is inappropriate to make caustic, false accusations and/or “bear false witness”.
Peace!

JohnQ:
Yes, I did realize that you had posted it in response to the earlier post.

One of my Lenten disciplines is not to hang on the Internet, but I am making a small exception to this rule today because this story is about my bishop and my presiding bishop.
One thing to note is that Katherine, in her remarks at a clergy meeting this past Friday, was asked almost nothing and said very little about homosexuality, in the church or the clergy.
And Jeffrey, in his sermon at his installation on Sunday afternoon (quoted in news story above) said almost nothing as well. I don’t know what Katherine said at St Nicholas’s because I wasn’t there, but I was at the other two events.
The reason they said almost nothing about it is because it is, for the most part, a non-issue. The reason that’s what people hear about it is because that’s what the press reports. There’s a coverage-created skew which is drastically misleading, and commenters need to keep that in mind.
I think, generally, TEC is welcoming to GLBTs in part for the reasons some have posted above (The Great Commission, and so on). Another is that every church has gay people in it, in the clergy and in the laity, and we might as well be honest about it – God likes honesty.
But another is, and I may be projecting here, but I think we would rather people be Christians than behave as though they were Christians.
If people are Christians, they will and do come to conform themselves and their behavior more and more to the will of God, through the workings of the Holy Spirit, in discipleship to Christ, over time.
(This process is called, in the Greek, “metanoia,” which is ordinarily translated ‘repentance,’ but that word does not capture the fullness of the radical change, internal and external, that the Greek does.)
But if people merely act like “Christians,” the will and do come to conform less and less to the will of God – and their actions become, over time, less and less Christ-like.
So I suppose we would have a lot of Christians: cleansed in Baptism, nourished by the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, and striving to live into their Baptismal Covenant with God’s help – and still sinful as all mere mortals are.
And we would rather have that than a lot of “Christians” who are scrupulous in their behavior (behavior they attend-to, that is), and yet are greedy and envious and angry and proud in their souls, where it matters.

There is and there will continue to be much discussion on this matter.
Anyone can quote scripture to either support or refute a particular position. The true question is whether or not one can use those scriptures to speak life into a person to promote positive and lasting change.
The Biblical Text as we have it is what we have. There is of course
continued debate on the manuscript fragments (copies by the way) that make up the New Testament. There is also continued research into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Hebrew Scriptures as well.
Again, the “data” (scriptures) we have is what we have. We cannot rewrite them. Individually we must live by our convictions concerning the “text” as we understand/accept it. Ultimately, it is an individual choice of how one lives his/her life. IMO, this is a certain fact. It also means that I must recognize that others do not share my beliefs and convictions, and accept that fact as well.
I return again to the quoting of scripture against homosexuals or organizations that are inclusive of them. If that is your approach, I accept that.
Many people focus on the behavioral aspect of homosexuality. Understand that this is only one view. Others view homosexuality from to whom one is primarily attracted. The rest of my discussion is from this view.
1. Lets say a person is a “born again” Christian but still has physical and emotional attractions predominantly to members of the same gender. (I know for many, you will dismiss this as an impossibility. However, I ask you to consider it even if you do view it as an impossibility.)
2. The person believes it is wrong to have these feelings and especially feels it is wrong to act upon them because that it their personal conviction from the Holy Bible as well as their church community.
3. They have had these feelings for numerous years (20) since their accepting Christ as their personal Savior, and have not acted upon them.
4. They have prayed (“effectual and fervent prayer” in confident faith) and cried out to God for numerous years. Still, the attraction to members of the same gender has remained.
5. They faithfully attend church and have read the entire Bible through (and still continue to read it)… Still, the attraction has remained.
6. They have gone on 3 day fasts, and a 40 day consecration to get rid of the attraction… Still, the attraction has remained.
7. They have been in prayer lines and had hands (holy consecrated hands of a Sanctified, Holy Ghost filled pastor)laid upon them… Still, the attraction has remained.
8. They willingly attended an Ex-Gay ministry… Still, the attraction has remained.
9. They are going to an Evangelical Christian Psychotherapist… Still, the attraction has remained.
So, for those of you who can only quote scripture. What do you say to this person?
1. They are not truly saved?
2. They were never converted in the first place?
3. They lack faith in God?
4. They cherish their sin, therefore God has not delivered them?
5. They attend the “wrong” church?
AND/OR
THEY SHOULD REMAIN CELIBATE THE REST OF THEIR LIVES AND HAVE NO COMPANION AT ALL.
If you are a hetersexual and Christian would you lead homosexuals by example and pledge yourself to a lifetime of celibacy?
Please do more than quote scripture. Demonstrate the scripture by your own living.