You’re never going to please everybody, so I say, leave the prayer as it is.

Benny, in trying to make everybody “happy” certainly missed the boat with his new prayer, as it “calls on God to “enlighten (Jews’) hearts so that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ, the savior of all men” and expresses the hope that “all Israel may be saved.”
Often wondered just why the RCC was/is so worried about the Jews. They were around long before the RCC, and the fellow they worship was a Jew and never left the faith, as far as I know. So why does the RCC feel like the Jewish people are wrong in not worshiping him? If it wasn’t for the Jewish people there wouln’t have been a “Savior” for the RCC to worship. Be glad for that and stop telling them that they are inferior by praying that their hearts get “enlightened”!

That “fellow they worship” referred to himself as the “I Am”. You can’t claim to follow Jesus Christ and NOT hope to share him with other people. After all, it’s what he commanded his disciples to do.
Pagansister won’t be happy until the Catholic Church abandons everything Jesus taught. How very tolerant.

Anonymous Coward:
The “I AM”? I AM what?
Praying for another older, and wise religion to start following another groups “savior” tends to make me think that the praying group feels superior and really has nothing to do with sharing. If you respected a religion, why would you pray that they would change their beliefs??? Because the RCC feels they are right. Somehow I think the Jews are doing fine without enlightenment. BTW, the RCC isn’t the only group that feels they are the best.
BTW, I’m very happy.

Pagansister,
The RCC believes itself to have the sole path to salvation, because it believes to be the one true church Jesus established, and all protestants are damned because of splintering off. Jews are damned for not recognising Jesus as their Messiah, and it according to the Great Commision at the end of Matthew Gospel to go and try to convert.
AC,
Pagansister isnt Christian, so she doesn’t recognise Jesus’ authority. Many of us non-Catholics have a problem with its authoritarian issues.

Very good argument for the Jewish people Pagansister. I’m a Christian and I don’t think I’m called to beat down others doors and sell Christ to strangers or even friends. I wasn’t brought up to do this in my family or my church. Jesus doesn’t need a hard sell. He’ll find you or you’ll find Him just have faith. I love Jewish people, some of my happiest times were with them. They had more love and care then some of my own family did. There is nothing Christians can do to make them better, including the Pope.

I expect some Jews are very aware of the RCC’s history of anti-Semitism and the effect it had in enabling the Holocaust. So I don’t blame them for being sensitive about what a large group of people are trained to pray for.
If the Pope had an ounce of sensitivity in him he’d have figured that out.

Nameless one,
With respect, you have it backwards. Jews are not damned for failing to recognize Jesus. They are justly damned for their sin–just like you and me. The question then is how to be saved, and the answer is, through faith in Christ.
With a name like “pagansister” I kinda figured she doesn’t recognize Jesus’ authority. However, I would expect her to recognize that the RCC has a distinctive set of beliefs, and the right to preach them and express them through prayer, just as the RCC also respects her right to worship as she wishes.
(I’m not RCC by the way.)
Pagansister,
Of course the RCC believes they are right. They pray for the salvation of the Jews because they believe that the Jews would benefit from serving Jesus Christ. To pray that the Jews would receive Christ is the most compassionate and benevolent prayer they could ever offer.
FYI, “I Am” is how God first named himself to the Hebrew people. See Exodus 3:14.

“The ‘I AM?’ I AM what?”
The most common translation of the Tetragrammaton, usually translated as “the Lord” in the Bible. “God said to Moses, ‘I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you.”‘” Exodus 3:14, New International Version.
I for one cannot understand the issue here, really. Of course the Catholic Church thinks that Jews should accept Jesus—assuming Jesus is the Son of God, then they’re right. For that matter, I don’t see why a Catholic should be offended if all the Jews started to pray for them to change religions—because after all, assuming Jesus isn’t the Son of God, then Christians are all engaging in idolatry every time they go to church. Let’s just all pray that everyone else changes, I say, and see whose prayers God ultimately sides with. And with that, God bless.

Henrietta22, have you ever prayed for someone’s salvation?
If so, do you consider that to be a “hard sell”?
If not…why do you call yourself a Christian?

“Let’s just all pray that everyone else changes, I say, and see whose prayers God ultimately sides with. And with that, God bless. ”
Amen. Just pray. And stop there. Then we could likely get along. But some people think they are furthering some holy cause if they take it beyond prayer, perhaps in a violent way.
But my confidence in the power of prayer is rock solid. There isn’t any outside one’s own head.

Ah, the “salvation” thing. The best invention for separating fools from their money in the history of religion and quite possibly in all of history. It follows the classic paradigm of sales: invent a problem whose cure you can sell.
Fortunately for the Christian churches a lot of people don’t stop to think about the inanity of a god that would invent a universe full of wonders and drop in some people whose destiny is to live a short life and then burn in “Hell” forever, no matter how good they are, no matter what kind of life they lead.
And then, much later, it says “Oh, by the way, if you believe just the right way you can escape Hell and sit by my feet forever and adore me. But I’m only going to give hints at what ‘just the right way’ is so you can disagree over it and even fight wars over it. That will amuse me.”
So to the extent those religious fools part quietly with their money it’s ok with me. But when their superstitions lead them to vote foolishly and oppose teaching real science or real sex education or any number of other things that impact me and those I love I get upset and have to point out how foolish all this really is. I could go on.

Thanks to the folks that reminded me of what “I AM” is all about. Thinking back to the movie The Ten Commandments, some early training in the Methodist church and the explanations above, I now remember what the 2 words are all about.
Henrietta, thanks for the compliment. I have great admiration and respect for the Jewish people. (and some Christians).
A. Coward:
I’m not sure the RCC respects my right to worship as I please! They’d be praying overtime, I expect. I’m a Pagan, after all and that’s probably one or two steps down from the Jews. However, I did spend 10 years in a Catholic school, teaching, and no one tried to “convert” me. Have many friends there. I do know that the RCC has a certain set of practices (10 years of attending Mass with kids)but still don’t think they have to pray for Jews to “see it their way”. I really don’t admire Benny either….he isn’t, IMO, helping the church in any way.

AC, I take it you don’t like what I said about not pushing people to come to Christ. What I pray for, and for whom is my business and Gods, and not yours. Never question anothers degree of holiness it’s rude.

As a Jew, I am sick to death (literally) of Xians trying to share their love with me by getting me to from my beliefs, my faith, my culture and ethnicity and become a completely different person. And I’m sick to death that my family was murdered for countless generations for refusing the church’s (ALL the churches) “kind” offer. The church lost any moral authority ages ago.
And if people choose to engage in idol worship, there is nothing I can do to stop them. I would hope they try, but I would never want the coercive power of the state to be used (as has been done in the past) to change that.

Scott R.:
If I were in your shoes, I’d feel the same way. It must be frustrating to have Christians tell you that your religion is wrong and theirs is the only way. Believe it or not, I can understand that.
IMO, nobody has THE religion. Each religion is THE religion in the minds of the followers.
Some churches don’t understand that if I wanted to be one of them, I would be…just leave me alone.

Why don’t they pray for the salvation of all people? It seems to me much of the controversy arises from singling out the Jewish people. Wouldn’t it be more theologically correct to pray for everyone anyway?

Henrietta, there’s no need to overreact. I did not question your holiness. You praised pagansister’s attack on a certain kind of prayer practice so I thought that questions about prayer practices would be in bounds. Guess not.
Pagansister, there’s a big difference between praying for someone’s salvation versus attempting to coerce someone against his will. I can respect your right to believe differently, even as I might pray and hope fervently that you would experience the joys of worshiping the one true God as he has revealed himself. There’s no contradiction there, in fact, the former flows from the latter.
That said, it’s striking how you want RCC beliefs to change because … they want someone else’s beliefs to change. Pot, meet kettle.
Wannabe theo, who says they _don’t_ pray for the salvation of all people? And regardless, why would it be wrong to pray for a particular group or individual?

nnmns, you should be a preacher.

“nmns, you should be a preacher.”
I’ll take that as a(n) ???

Anonymous Coward wrote: “who says they _don’t_ pray for the salvation of all people?”
I’m sure they have prayers for all people, I was referring to modifying this particular prayer.
“And regardless, why would it be wrong to pray for a particular group or individual?”
Once that group or individual has made it clear they don’t like the prayer, that preference should be respected. At least in church ordained, public prayers. Private prayers are something else.
For example, suppose I discovered that every Sunday your entire congregation prays out loud (it’s actually printed in the bulletin) “please save that reprobate Wannabe Theo”. If I communicated to you that I don’t like being singled out like that in public, it would be proper for you to remove that petition from the prayer. It’s a public humiliation.

Perhaps the prayers for the Jews are because the Jewish people were the people chosen by God to see the fullness of God in Jesus Christ. God revealed himself over time as we were ready – through the prophets to the Jews, and then ultimately through his Son, Jesus. The Jews were blessed by God in this special way. Many Jews did follow – most of the apostles were Jews first. I don’t see how praying for Jews (or Hindi or pagans) can be considered an insult – unwanted, but not an insult.
As to the Holocaust, the Church did much to speak out against this atrocity and saved many. The line that the Pope did nothing is an Urban Legend started from a fictional play on the subject.

First, depending on which Bible one uses, the “Great Commission” was to go out and spread the word of Christ, go out and spread his teachings/message, or out an make disciples….it does not say go out an forcibly convert….nor, go out and use the Bible as a weapon.
Second, I have little doubt that Benny is doing exactly what he is doing with great intent. He is a traditionalist. The RCC has a many century history of promoting hatred towards Jews and others. Think back to last year….Benny was rekindling the same advesarily position with Muslims. He is undoing the work of his Holiness Pope John Paul II.
Benny seems to have a pattern of offending groups…then ering and ahing saying that was not his intention. The Vatican then explains his explaination of this explaination.
Third, since it appears that only the Vatican and staunch Catholics believe that Pius XII assisted Jews during WWII, I am more inclined to believe the non-Catholic historians that suggest that Pius XII supported Hitler in his quest to eliminate the Jewish people.
Please note, I always look for the best that I can find in any individual person. My comments about Benny and Pius XII are the best the I can find in them. If I were to look for the worst…my comments would be severe.
This article simply is further indication that Benny’s actions are abhorrent.
Peace!

All of the theological and ecclesiastical posturing in the world will not mean anything here. Benny16 is simply asserting himself and does not care who is offended. He is not at all concerned about anyone outside the RCC. Instead he is trying to show just how tough they are. It comes off as merely stubborn (on a good day) or arrogant (most days). All he has done is prove once again how out of touch the leadership of the Institution is. The saving grace is that many of the clergy do not follow to the letter everything that is sent to them.

I don’t think Jewish people care that Christians pray for them on their own time. What they object to is being singled out as needing to be “saved” as some Christians mean this; this type of interpreting Christian does this to other Christians who interpret differently than they do also. It’s a good thing to pray for all people, just don’t advertise it, and shout it in the streets. Our daughter went out with a teen group from a Pentecostal Church in the 70′s to hand out invitations to the Church. When she came home she was upset that the leaders were forcing their beliefs on the door-openers! She didn’t think this was right to do this, because it was upsetting the homeowners by bringing embarrassment, annoyance, and anger to them. She was only sixteen and she could see this all on her own. She said she would never do this again. I told her I thought she was right not to. Worship the way that is relevent to yourself, and let others do the same. This is America where there is “freedom of religion”, it is not Europe or Rome in Europe.

But, wannabe theo, if the RCC were to permit people outside the church to dictate her own prayers, where does it end? Why should _any_ church have to kowtow to the ADL? A church has the right to worship as it chooses.
Perhaps I only feel this way because of this little ideal we have here in America called “Freedom of Religion”. Sad to see you have departed from it.
Henrietta, if a local pizzaria goes door to door handing out coupons, are they “forcing their pizza on the door-openers”? How absurd. Why should a church have less right to promote itself than a pizzaria?

My experience as a Jew in encounters with Christians runs the gamut from respect and acceptance to outright disbelief that I would risk eternal damnation rather than except Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. These two extremes are the easiest to deal with. I find it far more tricky to deal with those who harbor an attitude along the lines of “I am really concerned that something bad (i.e. damnation) can happen to you! How can this be offensive to you?” On the one hand, I can appreciate the concern (even though I do not acknowledge the reason behind it) but, I still find myself uncomfortable in my gut with the idea that this person finds me “spiritually lacking” in some respect. Whether this discomfort is totally a fabrication of my own insecurities or a real attitude being projected by the other is something I continue to, gladly, wrestle with. In the meantime, I thank you all (if it applies) for your concern (however well-meaning it may be) and wish you all peace.

JohnQ, are we reading the same article? How in the _world_ did you get from, “praying for the salvation of the Jews” to “go out and use the Bible as a weapon”?

Yes, AC, I would like the RCC to change. IMO, the same beliefs could be held, but they could come into the 21st century. Women priests, allowing priests to marry, birth control. Obviously Benny won’t sanction this. Many of the teachers I worked with in the Catholic school held the same ideas. They were practicing Catholics, devout, but felt that there could be some improvements. Obviously these things don’t affect me personally, as I’m not a Catholic. However with the changes, there might not be a shortage of priests and nuns, and the church might get more members. Of course, I probably just described the Episcopal church!
Benny lives in another world…luxury, and in a castle like environment. I personally think he has no idea how his “subjects” live, and really dosn’t care as long as they do what he says. As has been pointed out by many…he is arrogant. Using the prayer that singles out the Jews to “see the light”? That’s just unfeeling, and arrogant. Actually without the Jews, there’d be no Jesus for the RCC to worship. They’ve done their part! Leave them alone.

pagansister, I really don’t know what women priests or the supposed arrogance of the current pope has to do with this conversation.
It’s as simple as this:
The RCC believes that Jesus calls all men to repent and follow him. All men includes Jews. Therefore it is appropriate to pray that the Jews receive Christ.
Unless you have some grounds for telling the RCC it should change its core beliefs about Jesus Christ then I can’t see why you would have any legitimate objection to their prayer.

“Unless you have some grounds for telling the RCC it should change its core beliefs about Jesus Christ then I can’t see why you would have any legitimate objection to their prayer.”
Well that’s easy. There’s at best little and indirect evidence that Jesus even existed and there’s absolutely no independent evidence that even one of his miracles, which are the basis for most if not all versions of Christianity, ever happened.
And given that they would have been quite amazing if they had happened and that there were Roman officials and others around at the time they were supposed to happen who were recording this and that, if they had happened it’s amazing nobody recorded them at the time.
And the purported records that do exist (the NT) cannot be given any credibility because they were written later by people trying to start a religion and because there are remarkable parallels with other mythologies which were common knowledge at that time.
So the only reasonable conclusion is that those miracles didn’t happen and any religion based on their having happened is baseless. So yes, the RCC should stop encouraging people to believe their list of fantasies.

Preach on, brutha nnmns! And never, EVER let facts get in the way of your sermons!

A. Coward:
You mentioned that I wanted the RCC to change some beliefs. I was merely mentioning that in response. Bit off the subject, yes. (but that never happens on these posts )
Nothing supposed about the arrogance of Benny. He has proven his lack of sensitivity many times in his short reign.
Disagree that it is appropriate that the RCC to single out the Jews for that special “receiving Christ” thing. I know it includes all men (and women?) but only mentions the Jews. I have no problem, as it doesn’t apply to me, with the RCC and their feelings about JC. WHY do they have to single out the Jews? That is the problem….and publicly, not in a quiet private prayer by some holy guy or gal. It’s that simple. The Jews have been doing very well without Jesus as a savior. Actually they have been persecuted for their lack of belief, for thousands of years. Ridiculous.

A Pizza Resturant being compared to Churches? This seems inane. But since you threw it out there….all of us eat, maybe all of us eat Pizza, who knows or cares? If I were to open my door which is unlikely because food establishments just hang their adv. on your door knob or throw them on your porch they would just hand me the paper and leave, not so with the Mormons, or etc. Recently though I have picked up Baptist papers left on our doormat for invitations to their church. Some I read and some I just throw away. I think a Church is rude and does not serve their religion in a good way to try to open conversations about religion on the homeowners turf when they weren’t invited to to begin with. Like Jesus said many times, if you have eyes use them to see with, and if you have ears use them to hear with. Pizza and religion, just like apples and oranges my friend.

Pagansister, you have to put this in perspective. This is change to a prayer used only one day out of the whole year. As I said before, it would betray either a lack of faith or of compassion if the RCC were to attempt to exclude the Jews from salvation in Jesus Christ, the hope of all men.
Henrietta, you don’t like it when someone tries to “open conversations about religion on the homeowners turf”. But that’s exactly what Jesus sent his apostles to do: read Mark 6:7-13. If Jesus Christ didn’t think it was rude, I don’t see why I should either.

And never, EVER let facts get in the way of your sermons!
And just what facts would those be? I try to be pretty factual so I’d like to know what documented facts you are aware of that contradict what I said.
As I said before, it would betray either a lack of faith or of compassion if the RCC were to attempt to exclude the Jews from salvation in Jesus Christ, the hope of all men.
But they left the rest of us out; doesn’t that betray an even bigger lack of faith or compassion?
But that’s exactly what Jesus sent his apostles to do: read Mark 6:7-13. If Jesus Christ didn’t think it was rude, I don’t see why I should either.
As I understand it Jesus didn’t think it was rude to beat up on people who made a profit on religion (money changers). I’m looking forward to hearing about you beating up on some who make a profit on religion.
On a pizzeria going door to door vs. a church going from door to door I’ve had friends move into a new suburb and people came around selling a local church; my friends didn’t go but reported feeling “peer” pressure to do so. I doubt that happens with pizzerias. My personal feeling is, I have no problem if a church leaves a flyer. If they stop by to talk I’ll point out how baseless their religion is, but I’m in a lot better position to do that than many people are and I can understand many people not wanting to be put in the situation.

> And just what facts would those be?
Oh, any of the generally accepted facts relating to the historicity of the Christian faith. For example, Christianity’s opponents much closer to the time of Jesus never asserted that Jesus was a fabrication. I suppose you know better than they did? Alas, this is not the thread for that discussion.
> But they left the rest of us out; doesn’t that betray an even bigger lack of faith or compassion?
What reason do you have to think that Catholics don’t pray for you or other groups? In fact, Catholics pray for all kinds of people all the time. It’s rather comprehensive really. This is just a snippet of one prayer from one particular day of the liturgical year.
> I’m looking forward to hearing about you beating up on some who make a profit on religion.
I think you are mistaken concerning the reasons that Jesus did what he did in that situation.
> I can understand many people not wanting to be put in the situation.
Such people are free to close the door; post a sign saying “no solicitors” etc. Part of the passage I mentioned actually included Jesus’ specific instructions to his followers when they encountered someone who didn’t want to listen, which was: leave them alone.

> And just what facts would those be?
Oh, any of the generally accepted facts relating to the historicity of the Christian faith. For example, Christianity’s opponents much closer to the time of Jesus never asserted that Jesus was a fabrication. I suppose you know better than they did? Alas, this is not the thread for that discussion.
And you know that how? Was some trustworthy person writing down everything they all said? No. So that’s an unsupported statement.
> But they left the rest of us out; doesn’t that betray an even bigger lack of faith or compassion?
What reason do you have to think that Catholics don’t pray for you or other groups? In fact, Catholics pray for all kinds of people all the time. It’s rather comprehensive really. This is just a snippet of one prayer from one particular day of the liturgical year.
Well then why put just the Jews in that prayer if they are praying for us all so much? It kind of puts them on a spot, doesn’t it? That’s just rude.
> I’m looking forward to hearing about you beating up on some who make a profit on religion.
I think you are mistaken concerning the reasons that Jesus did what he did in that situation.
Perhaps so. Enlighten me, please.
> I can understand many people not wanting to be put in the situation.
Such people are free to close the door; post a sign saying “no solicitors” etc. Part of the passage I mentioned actually included Jesus’ specific instructions to his followers when they encountered someone who didn’t want to listen, which was: leave them alone.
Maybe a sign saying No Religious Solicitors!

The previous post with the >’s was mine and the HTML didn’t behave as I hoped it would. Oh, well.

> Was some trustworthy person writing down everything they all said?
Early church writers responded to dozens, if not hundreds of specific objections to Christianity within the first few centuries of Christianity. The objection that “Jesus never existed” is very very rare. The vast majority of historians today acknowledge that Jesus lived in the first century. So the onus is on you to demonstrate against the evidence we have. But again, this is probably not the thread for it.
> Well then why put just the Jews in that prayer if they are praying for us all so much?
Um…because…that’s what “praying for people” means. You refer to them by name. Do I really have to explain this?
> Enlighten me, please.
I wouldn’t dare assume such a position of superiority…it would be sure to upset Henrietta and pagansister
> Maybe a sign saying No Religious Solicitors!
I think I’d rather have the Mormons knocking than a vacuum salesman, personally!

Why should _any_ church have to kowtow to the ADL? A church has the right to worship as it chooses.
Yes they do – except for the fact that the European churches have, for thousands of years, followed up the Jews’ “No” with persecution and death.
There is absolutely no moral foundation for preaching the “gospel” to us. We have a covenant and we also know from the bible that G-D does not take kindly to people leading his people astray.

No vacuum cleaner is as expensive as most religions.
You refer to them by name. Do I really have to explain this?
So Catholics have specific prayers when they pray for Hindus by name? For Rastafarians? For Pastafarians? What days do those happen?
I wouldn’t dare assume such a position of superiority…it would be sure to upset Henrietta and pagansister
I hereby request they forgive you for enlightening me about Jesus’ motivation for clobbering the moneychangers, or at least your opinion, if it wasn’t being upset at people making money off religion.
The vast majority of historians today acknowledge that Jesus lived in the first century. So the onus is on you to demonstrate against the evidence we have. But again, this is probably not the thread for it.
And the vast majority of the historians you refer to are no doubt Christians or dependent on Christians for book deals or faculty evaluations or so forth. I dare say most historians of that period, if approached about questioning Jesus’ existence,e would mumble something about a can of worms and decline.

And anyway whether Jesus existed or not is not important to my point. His miracles never happened. And without his miracles the foundations of most Christian churches are shown to be the sand they are.

> No vacuum cleaner is as expensive as most religions.
You’ve obviously never had a Rainbow salesman visit you.
> For Rastafarians? For Pastafarians? What days do those happen?
I don’t know, ask a Catholic. Do you really find it odd that Israel would get a special mention?
> I hereby request they forgive you for enlightening me about Jesus’ motivation [...]
Read a commentary or two if you really want to know. Don’t take my word for it. I’m just some anonymous coward.
> I dare say most historians of that period, if approached about questioning Jesus’ existence, would mumble something about a can of worms and decline.
Handwaving. Show some evidence. And if you think faculty evaluations in most educational institutions depend on having an orthodox view of Jesus then you need to get out more. Even so, by all means let’s admit the “faculty evaluation conspiracy hypothesis” as your best argument so far for the non-existence of Jesus.
> And anyway whether Jesus existed or not is not important to my point. His miracles never happened. And without his miracles the foundations of most Christian churches are shown to be the sand they are.
Ah that’s better, you’re back to preaching again. Good, because, frankly, you’re much better at preaching than argument!

I made a clear claim his miracles are very unlikely to have happened because if they had happened they would have been Very Big Events in that day, yet no independent chronicler writing at the time made any mention of them that anyone knows of. So the only reasonable conclusion is that those miracles never happened. You have avoided trying to refute that.
In fact you’ve tried to slip by most of my points.

> Yes they do – except for the fact that the European churches have, for thousands of years, followed up the Jews’ “No” with persecution and death.
Sometime why don’t you count up the number of Jews persecuted and killed by supposedly Christian regimes, and compare with the number of Jews persecuted and killed by non-Christian ones like Islamism and Naziism. Really, the Roman Catholic Church has got to be rank pretty low on today’s Semitic Terrorist Threat Indicator, wouldn’t you say? For crying out loud.
> There is absolutely no moral foundation for preaching the “gospel” to us. We have a covenant and we also know from the bible that G-D does not take kindly to people leading his people astray.
Jesus Christ is our moral foundation for preaching the good news. Without him, a dumb gentile like me would have nothing before God. But in Christ I have the promise of eternal life!

> no independent chronicler writing at the time made any mention of them that anyone knows of
OK nnmns. How about you provide any “independent chronicler” whatsoever who:
a) resided in and/or wrote about Judea
b) recorded contemporary events
c) lived during any of the years Jesus is said to have lived
Then we can see if all of those chroniclers you’re resting on somehow forgot to mention Jesus.

Sometime why don’t you count up the number of Jews persecuted and killed by supposedly Christian regimes, and compare with the number of Jews persecuted and killed by non-Christian ones like Islamism and Naziism.
Considering that I have a PhD in history, why yes, I have. Nazism would have been nothing without the 19 centuries of hate and persecution handed out by the church. Most Germans were Xians, and a majority of Germans threw their lot with Hitler (Y”S). Every single German church – save Bonhoeffer’s tiny movement – condemned the Jews loudly. They did NOTHING to help us.
Jesus Christ is our moral foundation for preaching the good news. Without him, a dumb gentile like me would have nothing before God. But in Christ I have the promise of eternal life!
If it makes you happy to believe that, have at it. But we have 2,000 years of history, civilization and theology on the church, so please, keep him away from us. Really. Just take “No” for an answer. All these people peddling the “good news” need to keep their claws away from our children. I wonder how much Jewish blood would flow, even in America, if we actively proselytized Xian children the way groups like Jews for JC (financed by the Southern Baptists) do to us?

So, Scott, since you know your history much better than me (which isn’t saying much!), perhaps you could expand–was it predominantly Christian- or non-Christian nations that went to war and defeated Hitler at a monstrous cost in human lives? And re-established Israel as a nation? And support it with massive amounts of aid even today?
> I wonder how much Jewish blood would flow, even in America, if we actively proselytized Xian children the way groups like Jews for JC (financed by the Southern Baptists) do to us?
I dunno. I rather doubt it would come to violence, but who knows. Got any other make-believe scenarios?

A. Coward, you have Christ, and Scott has his covenant with his God. And Scott is right, IMO…there is no moral foundation to preach the gospel to him. You have eternal life…or so you believe. Scott has what he wants…the promises his God gives him.
A. Coward, I wouldn’t be upsest if you answer nnmnn’s moneychangers and Jesus’s response question, but I appreciate your concern for my feelings:)

It was fun trying to keep up with the back and forth between you, AC, and nnmns. I’ve sat in with a Professor of Religion, Emeritis classes in the last two years, and yes, Jesus existed, not that I ever questioned this. Look at the Nag Hammadi papers, Dead Sea Scrolls, etc., and more to come….I think the miracles were real because it was Gods way at that time to make the people living then take notice and keep records. Unfortunately so many were destroyed by mans deceit.
When Jesus obeyed Gods command to go out and tell the masses about the new way to live thousands of yrs. ago, and Jesus told his Apostles to teach as he had taught them, they did. There was no newspapers, tv, on-line networks, no movies, not much communication, except word of mouth. Time has advanced AC, there are different problems, and ways of understanding now, communication that we use has advanced. People work two jobs in many cases, mothers aren’t home to answer unannounced intrusions in their lives, they are taking care of responsibilities of their families. It would be very strange to me if you can’t understand this.

“non-Christian ones like Islamism and Naziism.”
Scott answered you very well but let me add that Catholicism’s long history of portraying Jews as “Christ killers” was without doubt a big part of why Nazis were able to perform their horrors in Germany. It took the Church all too long to take that out of their dogma (or whatever part of their official beliefs contained it); I wonder if Ben will bring it back because it’s “traditional”.
And Christian countries indeed beat Germany, because Germany was a threat to them. America, a Very Christian Country admitted embarrassingly few Jews at that time when it would have saved their lives.

Henrietta, you are of course quite right that there are new modes of communication, but the existence of television does not negate our responsibility, our holy calling, to be sharers of the good news. I personally don’t go door-to-door but I have no quarrel with those who do.
pagansister, the calling to evangelize is something written deep within the Christian DNA. If you truly do wish to allow people to believe as they will, then you must recognize that a Christianity without a heartfelt desire to share the joys of Christ with a lost world, is no Christianity at all.
And, to all readers! Ooops! I accidentally put nnmns’s name in the “Posted by:” box in a previous post. I take full responsibility for the 6:47pm post above, any errors it contained, as well as any bad thing that any Christian ever committed or was accused of in the history of the world.

OK nnmns. How about you provide any “independent chronicler” whatsoever who: yada yada yada
No I can’t. But there were plenty of people around then who could and did write. And, if we assumed a god did indeed want proof of those miracles to exist and persist it could certainly have arranged for someone writing then to have recorded them. That would have been a very tiny miracle for a god capable of the miracles you folks believe in and it would have been a great investment in preserving the value of those miracles but it just-didn’t-happen. Like anything else that could prove conclusively that one of your versions of “God” exists.

The post above responding to AC was mine. AC I didn’t notice that; thanks for taking responsibility. I’ve almost done that sort of thing at times myself; I hope I never did.
I didn’t know we could post in other peoples’ names. That’s a very serious problem with this part of Beliefnet. I shall report it. In the meantime we’re going to have to decide whether a post seems to be in the spirit of a familiar poster.

> god did indeed want proof of those miracles to exist and persist it could certainly have arranged for someone writing then to have recorded them
Matthew? Mark? Luke? John? Paul? Peter? James? Oh wait, I guess they don’t count, because you are looking for someone who would actually record, in the face of heavy Roman persecution, that Jesus did miracles, but simultaneously don’t believe in him. Why would it be surprising to anyone that the union of that set is exactly zero people?
> America, a Very Christian Country admitted embarrassingly few Jews at that time when it would have saved their lives.
Well one way or another 4.5 million Jews got here. In fact you won’t find another nation with more Jews in it besides (maybe?) Israel.
What was this all about again? Oh yeah, you were trying to make the case that a church you don’t believe in shouldn’t pray to a God you don’t believe in about the beliefs of another group of people which you don’t believe in either. Have I got that right?

I thought I was having some kind of brain attack when you posted nnmns name on your post AC. I think we should have something done on this “Headline” place to have this corrected stat. Also everyone is supposed to use a name and keep it to use in posts, it’s not being done by a few. There are Christians who believe Mary Magdalene was the first Apostle, and even that she was his wife. Interesting concept, and I’m studying into this from a historical view-point, and what is showing up in new ancient papers. Don’t bother with the comments about Dan Brown. Truth is always stranger than fiction. Never be afraid to seek, your heads won’t fall off, really.

No one writing then even reported something like “it’s said Jesus performed the miracle of walking on water at (insert name of lake)” or such for any of those many miracles. I’m sure nothing like that survived because if it had it would be written up widely.
No I don’t take MMLJPPJ as trustworthy because they wanted to start and continue a religion. It was not their job to be objective, their job was to be convincing. Do you trust what a car salesman writes about a car? It’s the same thing.
As far as admitting Jews to the very Christian USA, even to save their lives, this site will curl your hair. Read it and think and learn a lot more than you apparently know about Holocaust times.

Anon. Coward wrote
“But, wannabe theo, if the RCC were to permit people outside the church to dictate her own prayers, where does it end? Why should _any_ church have to kowtow to the ADL? A church has the right to worship as it chooses.
Perhaps I only feel this way because of this little ideal we have here in America called “Freedom of Religion”. Sad to see you have departed from it.”
Sorry to take so long to respond, but I don’t like posting from work. Anon, as I’ve explained before, I believe that if an individual or group does not wish to be singled out in a public prayer, their wishes should be respected. That’s not kowtowing, that’s showing respect and empathy. And of course the RCC has the right to do as it pleases; I’ve never suggested otherwise. I was expressing my opinion on what I believe to be the right thing for the RCC to do. That’s what people do on these boards; express opinions. To say I’ve departed from the ideal of freedom of religion because I have an opinion on the RCC is a non sequitur and a low blow.
I also believe an easy way to fix this is to pray for everyone instead of singling out the Jews; they’re no more in need of or deserving of salvation than any other religious/ethnic group. And the fact that they object being prayed for makes it an even better idea. Of course, the RCC doesn’t have to do what I say; I’m not the pope! I’m just saying I think it would be a good solution.

Hi W.Theo, let me explain why I wrote what I did. To call for the RCC to change its practice you have to appeal an internal standard (i.e. why on a strictly RCC basis they should make a change) or you must impose an external standard to which you think the RCC should conform. I think you were doing the latter, but the standard of “they must do something different merely because someone demands a change or feels offended by it” is just not good enough. People especially in America seem willing to be offended by the slightest things! It seemed to me that you were advocating a policy that would effectively muzzle religious expression. If that was not your intent I apologize for any “low blow”.
nnmns, exactly as I expected then. You say the historical record doesn’t speak of Jesus, I ask for it, and you don’t have any. You ask for written evidence, I provide it, and you reject it on fabricated grounds (well they were trying to start a religion so obviously nothing they said could have been true!). So much for evidence!
Thanks for the link, I’ll check it out as an opportunity to learn a bit more American history. I don’t doubt there will be some things to regret, we’re all human after all.

nnmns,
It seems to me the idea of Jesus very existence being fabricated is far fetched. The apostles were martyred for their beliefs, and it’s difficult to imagine someone doing that for a fairy tale. Of course, you can always suggest the lives and deaths of the apostles were also fabricated, but then you go from inventing one man to inventing an entire community. Seems a whole lot simpler to believe He existed, and *something* about His life spurred the creation of a passionate religious movement, with followers willing to die for it. You may think they were simply deluded. I don’t; I believe the Gospels are reliable records of the life, teachings, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.
Furthermore, and this may seem like strange reasoning, but if the Gospels were just fiction, they certainly could have done a better job. I mean, why four gospels with some overlap, and some, dare I say, “inconsistencies”. Why not write one thorough, complete coherent story, if you’re just making it up. The gospels we have now are more consistent with oral tradition being remembered and written down some time after the events. And why make up such a strange religion, whose hero is a poor, itinerant preacher from Galilee who is executed as a criminal? I just can’t imagine anyone inventing a religion coming up with that.

A. Coward,
I don’t wish to muzzle religious expression. My comments are strictly limited to public intercessory prayers on behalf of another individual/group who does not wish to be singled out like that. I’m not expecting the RCC or anyone else to change their doctrines or worship practices.
I think the disconnect here may be that, based on my experience as a protestant, I wouldn’t think of someone not wanting to have their names mentioned out loud during the prayers as interference with our form of worship. Such prayers are motivated by circumstances, not “hard wired” into the liturgy, as this prayer is. If I offered to have my congregation pray for a friend, but he informed me that he didn’t want his name brought up during the public prayers, it wouldn’t occur to me in a million years that he was interfering with my freedom of religion.
If someone were advocating that certain parts of the bible be censored, or that any mention of Israel or Jesus as “King of the Jews” be eliminated, or that Christians stop using the Old Testament, then I would most certainly have a problem with that. I just don’t see this as the same type of issue.

As to Jesus’ existence, clearly I can’t prove he didn’t but the fact no one outside the Christians recorded him makes it very suspicious. As for the miracles, they are so remarkable that if they had happened they’d have been recorded. That’s clear.
As for dying for one’s religion, that’s not unusual. Much as I detest the terrorists, some of them do. Others have from various religions. I’m not convinced that proves anything in particular. And is there any independent documentation of those Biblical deaths and in particular the details of why they died? If it’s only in the Bible it’s highly suspect.
I’m no Biblical expert at all but might the Gospels not also be consistent with people writing down stories they’ve heard?

“What was this all about again? Oh yeah, you were trying to make the case that a church you don’t believe in shouldn’t pray to a God you don’t believe in about the beliefs of another group of people which you don’t believe in either. Have I got that right? ”
No, once again you’ve got it wrong. I very much believe in the Roman Catholic Church. It’s real obvious. And I believe in the Jews. Some of my best friends are Jews.

So, Scott, since you know your history much better than me (which isn’t saying much!)
Don’t be certain that isn’t saying much.
was it predominantly Christian- or non-Christian nations that went to war and defeated Hitler at a monstrous cost in human lives?
The U.S. and the U.K. didn’t go to war against Germany to help the Jews. The U.S. wouldn’t even bomb the rail lines to Auschwitz. Jewish children were prohibited from entering the country because Protestant churches lobbied the government to keep the Jews out. Ships of refugees (the St. Louis, for example) were turned away from our shores. Liberating the camps was an accident.
And re-established Israel as a nation? And support it with massive amounts of aid even today?
Helping to re-establish it was done out of guilt. And supporting it has nothing to do with helping Jews – Israel is a hedge against the rest of the Middle East.
I dunno. I rather doubt it would come to violence, but who knows. Got any other make-believe scenarios?
Maybe of you knew your history you would know what happens when Jews proselytize.
Well one way or another 4.5 million Jews got here. In fact you won’t find another nation with more Jews in it besides (maybe?) Israel.
So letting us into the U.S. was Xian generosity? The opposite in the past has been expulsion. Once in a while the church has let us live in peace.
But the Good Friday prayers hark back to an uglier and scarier time.

“As for the miracles, they are so remarkable that if they had happened they’d have been recorded. That’s clear.”
As A. Coward pointed out, they were recorded, but you seem to want a record from someone who witnessed a “remarkable” miracle and yet doesn’t believe. Who would fit this description?
“As for dying for one’s religion, that’s not unusual. Much as I detest the terrorists, some of them do.”
True, but I was referring to the “inventors” of Christianity being willing to die for a made up story.
“And is there any independent documentation of those Biblical deaths and in particular the details of why they died?”
But as I said before, now your increasing the scope of the “lie”. The more people you involve in this, the less believable the conspiracy theory seems. It’s not impossible, it just becomes less likely.
“I’m no Biblical expert at all but might the Gospels not also be consistent with people writing down stories they’ve heard?”
Yes. It’s my assertion that people deliberately inventing a religion would have written down their little fable as they made it up, not just tell a story here and there and wait for multiple people to write it down decades later. I can’t prove that, but it just seems to me that’s not how someone would invent a religion.
And I realize none of this “proves” Christianity. But I believe there is sufficient warrant, for someone who is so inclined, to choose faith, and not feel that he’s left his reason behind.

“The more people you involve in this, the less believable the conspiracy theory seems. It’s not impossible, it just becomes less likely.”
I’m not increasing the number of people. I’m repeating that the Bible writers are suspect because of their jobs.

W.Theo> Such prayers are motivated by circumstances, not “hard wired” into the liturgy, as this prayer is.
I’m in the same sort of tradition you are in so I understand what you mean. Thing to understand about the RCC is that the liturgy is a contemporary encoding of the full spectrum of her actual belief, rivaling the Bible itself in importance. A good comparison would be if an unsaved friend of yours said it was insulting to be evangelized to, and demanded therefore that you strike any reference to evangelism from your church’s statement of faith.
nnmns, thanks for clarifying that you “believe” in physical entities and people which was clearly not what I was referring to. And you accuse me of dodging? You are the MASTER! I’m not worthy!
Scott R, no, really, it is a VERY safe assumption that you have a better grasp of history, particularly Jewish history than I. But I’m not going to follow you in thinking that praying for someone’s salvation leads right straight directly to killing him. Nor am I so ready to dismiss every good thing that Western Civ has done for the Jewish people as motivated by guilt or selfishness, and every bad thing done to the Jewish people as the result of eeeeeevil Xianity.

The Vatican still has forced ghettoization and badging of Jews as part of its laws and the yellow star of David was invented by a saint.
Let me know when the decrees of Lateran II are offically renounced and ST Vincent Ferrer officially de-canonized.

Maybe some of the rabbis ought to instigate prayers for the retunr of the Pope to the true and original faith. Afterall that was all jesus was supposed to be doing. So lets all pray for Benny16′s eventual bar Mitzvah. Now what do you think an appropriate gift should be?

Excellent suggestion, jestrfyl! I’ll pray to the Goddess to get the ball rolling.

I guess one of the big problems is that this Pope has some kind of connection to a Nazi past.
And I can certainly understand why the Jewish community, generally, is concerned about a Pope with a supposedly Nazi past.
During WWII, many priests and much of the Catholic Church cooperated with the Nazis. I believe during most the course of the war, the Vatican never made comments opposing either Hitler or Mussolini.
So, based on that tradition and experience, the Jewish community certainly has cause for concern.
Perhaps this is simply an internal debate over a prayer. Perhaps it is not. Perhaps it is a subtle expression of some real anti-Semitism by this Pope.
Personally, I don’t know. But I think the Jewish community has every right to be concerned.

I am Jewish, and I was taught “many mountains reach the sky.” We are also taught not only not to evangelize or encourage non-Jews to convert but to discourage them to make sure that any who do convert are truly and honestly committed.
I can understand how anyone would hope to share what has made them fulfilled and happy, but I am uncomfortable with any faith that considers itself so incontrovertibly the only way that worshipers should spend their time praying for others to convert instead of praying for their own adherence to its principles.