I certainly believe that the pope has a right to do this. And, I even more definitely believe that this was not a wise action by the pope.
It seems to me that it is unfortunate the pope seems to want to drag the RCC backwards.
Peace to all…Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, pagans, atheists, and everyone else

Really, if you think about this, it is not a very big deal. I mean, this only applies to those who want to use the Latin liturgy; it is a special prayer said once a year; and it has been revised to be less offensive. I can understand why Jewish groups, as well as some other minority groups with a history of persecution, tend to be very nervous about anything like this, but it seems to me a lot of it tends to be overreactions.
And while this is a step backwards (well, not even really a “step” so much as a kind of vague shifting of feet that moves one back a few millimeters without even taking your foot off the ground), the fact is, the RCC probably _should_ take a few step backwards. Vatican II was a revolution within the RCC, and revolutions almost always go too far and need to be adjusted eventually. Let’s face it; Roman Catholicism has not exactly been doing well since Vatican II, and a lot of people (the ones who actually attend most, incidently) are in favor of a more “orthodox” revival. I think that in the long term, this will register as a tiny blip in Jewish-Catholic relations but be a bigger move in terms of strengthening the RCC itself.
God bless.

Joey, in what way do you think this might strengthen the RCC?
And why would anyone want to? (Aside from those whose salaries depend on the membership?)

nnmns:
Are you asking why anyone would want to strengthen the Catholic Church? Well, I imagine that most people who are orthodox Catholics and believe the Catholic Church has divine salvation to offer the world would like very much to see it strengthened. Why wouldn’t they?

I think that in the long term, this will register as a tiny blip in Jewish-Catholic relations
This could pretty much kill Catholic-Jewish relations. We cannot have any sort of interfaith relations that considers us deficient or wishes to convert us out of existence. We aren’t going back to the bad old days where we had to cower in terror of the power the church.

“I imagine that most people who are orthodox Catholics and believe the Catholic Church has divine salvation to offer the world would like very much to see it strengthened.”
Yes, I suppose so. I forget about that group because it’s such an outrageous idea that anyone needs or could profit from “salvation”.

Now back to the question, why would such a foolish prayer strengthen the RCC?

After 40 yrs. an unused prayer for the lenten season is being used to plea for Jewish people to feel the truth of Jesus Christ in their hearts and to join the saved Christians. The RCC says it is just a small thing and not to be taken too seriously by the Jewish people, just a little blip on the screen being said in all Latin Masses, all over. Hello? If I were Jewish or married to a Jewish man I don’t think I would like this. Nobody likes to be held up as not having a relationship with God, that is if you believe in Him. It’s like my being asked by my United Christian Bretheran mom-in-law to be, if I had a Bible, after being told I was raised and confirmed in the Lutheran Church.

Many faithful Catholics in the pews feel that post-Vatican II trends in worship watered down Catholic liturgical practice and made it more shallow, even cheesier. Many people want to return to older worship services, reciting older prayers, and so forth. Getting those Catholics excited about the Church again would certainly make it stronger.

Basicly Benny, and the RCC are saying that anyone who doesn’t accept the Christ as a savior, is missing something. What? I don’t know! The fact that the Jewish people don’t consider Jesus as anything but another Jewish fellow, disturbs them. So by praying (albeit,just once a year) that their god “enlightens” them to believe JC is a savior for them too, makes the RCC feel better. It is offensive to the Jewish people who were around a long time before JC made his miraculous appearance, and had their covenant with God long before the Catholics were even a blink in time.

“Now back to the question, why would such a foolish prayer strengthen the RCC?”
Well, actually, this ties into the other article about church denominations, and what you said about numbers not being a good indication of how well a church was really doing. What I said wasn’t so much about the questionable prayer itself, but the kind of easing towards pre-Vatican II in general. As I’ve said, I am not Catholic and have attended a Catholic mass maybe a handful of times in my life, so my experience is somewhat limited to what I have heard from others, but it seems to me that the RCC, in the United States at least, is kind of internally weak.
We’ll probably disagree on this point, I think, because you and I will disagree with how to define a “strong” RCC. To me, a “strong” religion is one in which its adherents are very faithful in its doctrines, and dedicate their lives to those doctrines. (I want to point out here that I come from a nominally Catholic family; however, the very reason I don’t consider myself Catholic is because _I didn’t believe half the stuff they were saying._ I know the idea that one has to be pro-life and anti-gay and all that to be a good Catholic seems somewhat bigoted, but I mean, if that’s what the religion says and you don’t believe it, why not just go and become Episcopalian?) If that’s the case, then I do not see how moves like the Latin mass cannot strengthen the Church—they’ll either reinforce Catholic doctrine in the people, or drive those who are not really dedicated to the RCC out (or do nothing, I suppose, in which case it neither strengthens or weakens the RCC).
So, that’s my very long answer to your question. Feel free to rip it apart now.
“We cannot have any sort of interfaith relations that considers us deficient or wishes to convert us out of existence.”
See, but the thing is, this is what I don’t get: according to Jews, Catholics are idolaters. And of course this makes perfect sense—if, as the more religious Jews pray twice daily, “Adonai Echad” (“The Lord is One,” i.e., non-Trinitarian), then worshipping Jesus as if he were God is sinful. And, if Jesus was the Incarnation of God, then of course not worshipping him (or Him, as it would be) is leaving something very important out of your worship.
In my opinion, you cannot have truly meaningful interfaith relations unless you’re willing to be honest. I really don’t see why everybody has to be so dang sensative about being called a heathen. And if you disagree with me, guess what? YOU THINK MY BELIEFS ARE DEFICIENT. And, more importantly, I DON’T CARE. We’re still have interfaith relations, aren’t we! It’s not even as if the RCC is saying Jews are hellbound; they haven’t said that since Vatican II, and that’s one of the good things they did. But any truly faithful, honest Catholic has to admit they think Jews are wrong; and any truly faithful, honest Jew has to admit they think the Catholics are wrong. Let’s just all admit we think everybody else is wrong, and then worry about what we’re right about.
Whoo…oy, that took a long time to write out. Goodnight and God bless, my interesting, heathenistic friends.

In Israel it is illegal to proselytize. Christians can be arrested and serve time in prison for it.
In Italy, Christians (and Jews) are allowed free speech, and people are allowed to accept what they offer or reject it.
Sobering huh.

Joey, that seemed a reasonable and thoughtful answer, given your perspective, and while of course I disagree with your perspective I’m not inclined to get into its problems now.
And anybody who disagrees with half the things the RCC says is on their way to being right.

According to Catholicism Popes from past to present may disagree in what they proclaim from the Holy See (Chair)….yet -both- disagreement stands as correct due to the official teachings of the church. Thus, I can understand the confusion from practicing Jews who are offended. Especially since Popes past have stated anything to all are to be saved to only works save.
On the other hand, Jews as a whole have little right to proclaim they’re offended regarding Christianity and wittiness — which is what I believe the main issue is about. This isn’t just focused on them as much as they like to play the martyr.
“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:19 & 2 is what Jesus told His followers. He warned He was divisive, an offense, and a scandal to others. Because He proclaims have conquered over sin, death, and Hell. And, saying we’re sinners and deserve Hell offends people. That He’s God’s Son and God Himself. That He’s the promised Messiah.
There’s a reason why the Jews in His day nearly stoned Him when He made reference to Himself by how God referred to Himself to Moses back in the Old Testament as “I AM that I AM”. “Before Moses was, I AM.”
The arguments that the Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God are made null and void by this fact. The Jews consider Jesus to have been a good teacher/rabbi at best, but not the promised Messiah they long waited for. Muslims consider Him to be a prophet second only to Muhammad. Neither group accept Him as God. Thus, buy rejecting Jesus as God, Second Person of the Holy Trinity, they reject the God Christians worship.
Christianity is not inclusive. It cannot draw in other faiths into the fold and remain Christianity. But it’s very nature it’s exclusive at the core. The Old and New Testaments solely point to Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. One is saved from sin, death, and Hell by grace, through faith in Jesus alone.
Recently there was a Episcopalian cathedral in California which held a joint service with Hindus, leaving priests asking for forgiveness for showing prejudice (witnessing to Hindus as a whole) against their faith. Causes me to think of Ancient Israel who worshiped foreign idols next to the alters.
But back to the present, rather odd Jews are offended and, like others, believe they should live in a world where there is no offense. Well, what about others who are offended that they’re offended when they’re simply living out their faith?

aiko-
First, not everything a pope says is “said from the chair”. When a pope is “speaking from the chair” he/she must state that he/she is speaking from the chair. And, only when a pope is speaking from the chair is what he/she considered to be infallible. In otherwords, not everything is a pope says is condsidered by the RCC to be infallible. BTW, the last time a pope spoke from the chair was in 1950.
Second, whatever prejudices you may hold regarding Jews….in this case it is specifically directed at Jews. The specific prayer is specifially direced at Jews.
Third, the Great Commission (to go out and spread the message of Our Lord) does not direct us to do it forceably/against the will of others.
Fourth, not all Christians believe in the Trinity….nor, do all Christians believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ is God.
Fifth, Grace comes from God…not, from the worship of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Sixth, God does not punish us for extending a hand to those of other faiths. Unless the Episcopal priest/bishop who was conducting the service in the cathedral renounced God/Our Lord Jesus Christ….there was probably no worshiping of “foreign idols”.
Seventh, an individual’s right to live their faith ends at the point it infringes on the rights of others.
Peace!

“Basicly Benny, and the RCC are saying that anyone who doesn’t accept the Christ as a savior, is missing something. What?”
That’s called traditional, orthodox Christianity, pagansister. If someone claims to be a Christian and doesn’t believe that, they’re straying pretty far outside the the historical tenets of their faith. Christians have always thought this, and Christians are going to go on thinking this, just as we should, no matter whom it offends.

Joey:
There is no offense taken by me at least, by being called a “Heathen.”
NateW:
I was being sarcastic when I asked that question. I figured that the church feels that the unenlightened would not enjoy the wonderful benefits of beliving in JC as the savior with all that that supposedly entails.

Christianity looses a little something when forced upon other people.
Publically praying as part of a mass (addressing Jews) “that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ as the savior of all men” is offensive.
For anyone who thinks otherwise…..can we suppose that you would not be offended if Jews specifically where praying to God(just one sabath a year) that Christians should become enlightened and renounce Jesus Christ.
Peace!

I’d pray that all religious people renounce their gods, but I don’t think it would do any good.

JohnQ:
Anyone who is offended by prayers for conversion deserves to be offended. Maybe if we offend them enough, they’ll learn to toughen up quit acting like babies.
I would not be at all offended if a Jew prayed for my conversion. Or if a Muslim did so. Or anyone of any other religion. Why would I? Why should I be so sensitive as to be offended by the fact that other people believe differently from the way I do, that they think they have something I’ve missed, and that they hope that me and my kind would come to see things their way?

In an article (news) the “ordinary form” of Mass, using the vernacular language of those attending the Mass, being of any language, this was enacted by Pope Paul VI following Vatican Council II. The Ordinary form” of Mass has a three-yr selection of Scripture readings on Sundays and a two-year cycle for weekdays. The “extraordinary form” of Mass uses the Roman Missal, written in Latin, enacted by Pope St. Pius in 1570. The “Extraordinary form” has a one-yr. cycle of Scripture readings.
Other differences are: The “Extraordinary form” of Euchrist is received in bread only. The “Ordinary form” of Euchrist is received by both bread and the wine to the people. The “Ordinary form” of Mass is given by the Priest facing the congregation. The “Extraordinary form” or the Tridentine Mass has the Priest with his back to the congregation. Now each of these postures, and each of what the bread and host means to the people have to be taken into consideration or at least should, because the meanings are important. Now ladies (mostly little ladies) here’s a good one for you. Servers at the “Extraordinary Mass” will be boys. Girls only are allowed to serve at the “ordinary Mass” , as well as lectors and eucharistic ministers.
At least the women and girls aren’t being asked to cover their hair and faces as they probably did in 1570. At least not yet.

Nate,
Christians have always thought this, and Christians are going to go on thinking this, just as we should, no matter whom it offends.
Then we’ll just have to live our lives without you in it, right?

Joey,
See, but the thing is, this is what I don’t get: according to Jews, Catholics are idolaters.
That is not true. Since you believe you’re following the only God, then you aren’t idolaters.
Fundamentalist protestants, who seem to worship the bible, would come much closer to idolatry.

Donny,
In Israel it is illegal to proselytize. Christians can be arrested and serve time in prison for it.
That is not quite true. It is illegal to harass people with religious intentions. One would get a fine for that, and if a foreigner, expelled from the country.

If the Roman Church cared about Easter then they would acknowledge
that Easter can’t occur prior to Passover which is the only important
date in the calendar. The other dates are mostly man made nonsence.

Speaking as a Jewish man who has come to faith in Jesus Christ, I think it is a travesty that churches feel that they can not pray for and evangelize Jewish people just like they would any other people group.
The most Jewish thing I ever did was to accept the Messiah that came to seek and save the lost.
When Jesus said “I am the way the truth and the life. Noone comes to the father except by me.” He did not put in any footnotes that said (“except for Jes”).
Lots of persecution has been done “in the name of Christianity.” That does not change Jesus’ message. It just means that epopel have tried to steal the message and use it for their own purposes.

If a Jewish person thinks JC is the Messiah, then is that person still Jewish?
Robert G:
Guess the prayers that are done on Good Friday to have the Jewish people “enlightened” and accept JC as their savior must have worked on you.

I think Il Papa ought to work harder on converting the Catholic hearts and spend less time and verbiage on anyone outside their faith. Ole ben has some work to do because a whole lot of Roman Catholics are beginning to think for themsleves and not take all the Papal Bull as anything more than ecclesiastical fertilizer. He keeps trying to grasp the older traditions without grasping that people are looking for something that did not have its origins hundreds of years ago. Sure, traditions are great, but they have their time and pass away. So Ben, answer me this, “What’s New?”
Leave the Jews the Moslems the Hindus and the Protestants alone and look to the situation in your own house.

I can understand them being offended by the prayer, but it seems like the whole matter is being blown out of proportion. After all, it isn’t a big secret that (most) Christians believe that all non-Christians are going to hell and should convert. It’s not as though the Catholic church believed the Jews were somehow less wrong in their beliefs before this happened.

“Ole ben has some work to do because a whole lot of Roman Catholics are beginning to think for themsleves and not take all the Papal Bull as anything more than ecclesiastical fertilizer. He keeps trying to grasp the older traditions without grasping that people are looking for something that did not have its origins hundreds of years ago. Sure, traditions are great, but they have their time and pass away. So Ben, answer me this, “What’s New?”"
Roman Catholics have always been able to “think” for themselves, jestrfyl. Despite the prognostications of Protestants over the last 500 years of the imminent demise of the Roman Catholic Church, the Church has done quite well, thank you very much, and still outnumbers the rest of Protestantism combined, with your 25,000+ denominations. Those that are Roman Catholic are so because they have come to the conclusion, themselves by thinking for themselves, that Roman Catholicism is the true faith, the Church established by Jesus Christ himself. The Church has survived for 2000 years by maintaining the Tradition of the Apostles handed down from generation to generation. There is nothing wrong, if there is nothing new. Just because you need constant stimulation and novelties in order to have your faith, why do you feel the need to incessantly ridicule others?

As far as I can see, every Christian church thinks that they THE ONE and that they follow the rules JC and his buddies made.
Ain’t no TRUE church!

The prophesy of JohnQ “Christianity looses a little something when forced upon other people.”
JohnQ, I prefer to take what is probably a typo quite literally (a fine Biblical translation tradition).
I think Christianity does loose something – a beast that swallows humilty like water and eats good intentions like candy. I have been accused of intolerance myself, and I stand – quivering in fear of said beast – guilty. I must say, as I think I have before, I have known many many Roman Catholics who are not only independant thinkers, they are wise and caring and inspiring. I do not intend to lambast the bunch and dismiss them as a class. No, I reserve my chagrin and disdain for the leadership that exudes pride and arrogance like swine sweat. This is not to say Protestants are not gulty of loosing the same beast over and again. Even my own beloved & beleagured denomination has loosed that beast. Butwe need to acknowledge the beast, allow earnest confession to slay the beast, and to rise forgiven.
As to these prayers – they are anrachronistic babblings from an era of ignorance and ill-mannered blundering. It would be well if all Chirstians set the entire attitude aside in favor of openness and welcoming.

Seems only fair. For centuries, the Jews have been praying that the Catholics would just let them be.

“In Israel it is illegal to proselytize. Christians can be arrested and serve time in prison for it. In Italy, Christians (and Jews) are allowed free speech, and people are allowed to accept what they offer or reject it. Sobering huh.”
In fact, what is illegal under Israeli law is to “give or promise money, the equivalent of money or any other material benefit in order to entice a person to change his religion”. That’s different, huh.