I still contend that if they have nothing to hide, what’s the problem? One of them said he’d go to jail before handing over information….I’m sure that could be arranged.
Separation of church and state doesn’t mean scam the masses pretending to be something your aren’t…actual ministers.

I know this is all about tax-exemption but, regarding prosperity theology, in reality there is no biblical support whatsoever. It amazes me that Benny Hinn would be so cooperative when he is the biggest charlatan of all and has led countless thousands, perhaps millions, of people astray who are in fact seeking after Christian truth. One example of Mr. Hinn’s performances: When he made an appearance in SE Texas a few years ago the parents of a niece of mine through marriage took her to the event. She has a very rare form of skin cancer. All through his efforts to hypnotize the audience she thought he was talking about her when he said someone in the audience with a form of skin cancer was being healed. When he gave his call for the ill to come forward so he could pray for them she went forward. She and her parents were stopped by his body guards. They explained the situation to them. The response was: “well it is obvious that she hasn’t been healed.” I submit that none of the wonders seen on TBN and the like are real.

Any fool who gives his or her money to preachers anything like that (I’m convinced by the example of jesterfyl not to just say “preachers”) is a fool whose money was going somewhere anyway.
But if they are breaking the tax code I want these preachers strung up by painful parts for a while. If I were in Iowa I’d be very tempted to vote for Grassley. Good for him!

Hate to admit it, but pagansister and I actually agree on something. If they are scamming, I say, shut them down and throw them in jail!

While I agree that charlatans who take advantage of public gullibility should be legally prosecuted, but not necessarily “strung up by painful parts,” I think there is a need for government to use caution in pursuing faith organizations lest the clear Constitutional boundaries of government intervention in matters religious is violated. After all, separation of church and state works both ways. It protects the government from undue religious influence and it protects religion from undue government intervention.
I find no Scriptural basis for the prosperity gospel espoused by some of the ministries in question, but I argue that they have a right to teach that theology if they believe it to be true. They are not charlatans if they are convinced that God wants them, and their followers, to be rich in this world’s goods. They are charlatans if they use this “theology” to make themselves rich at the expense of others who remain poor. The danger is that anti-religious forces tend to paint with a very broad brush; if Rev. Rich Man is a charlatan, then all who hold to religious faith must be charlatans, too. That is something that is believed only by the most gullible among us.

I have no doubt that these type of ministries are essentially entertainment; charlatans exploiting lonely and alienated people, extracting ‘tithes’ to enrich their lifestyle. It’s laughable to think that the same prophet who taught that your riches were in heaven, not on earth, is used to taunt people into believing that their financial struggles are because of sin. Logically, their message is that if you are poor you are sinful and God doesn’t like you.
I believe it’s all innocent fun. Those who contribute aren’t really stupid or gulled – it’s just easier for them to believe that they can get rich if they buy into some magical formulas, rather than the dull and boring routine of go to work, save money, spend carefully, etc., etc.
Who wouldn’t rather believe in magic? Unfortunately I’ve not found any yet, but I’m still looking. And I think we should allow people to follow whatever religious path they choose and stop accusing them of gullibility or stupidity. They know what they’re doing, and it is their money.

wc you didn’t read my post. I don’t want to hang anyone up for what they preach. I want to do it if they broke the tax laws.
I think some people do believe them but that’s life. There will always be someone there to take a fool’s money, whether by offering wealth (the prototypical con game, I understand) or eternal life or a stock too good to be true.

Again it’s PT Barnum’s words”there’s a sucker born every minute.” or words to that effect.

I think giving religious organizations tax exemption is pushing the separation of church and state to begin with. I can understand giving religion-based institutions that provider public services like homeless shelters, orphanages and the like a tax break, but I don’t see why a house of worship deserves such status.
As I see it, if a single parent making minimum wage at McDonald’s has to pay their taxes, there is no reason why a megachurch that takes in hundreds of millions of dollars a year should get off so easily.

The holy book advised strict guidance in such matters. One refereence is “vengence is mine says the Lord.” Another is “touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm.”
I would like to know the senate’s qualifications for such a pursuit. The IRS deals with such matters.
These politicians need not play pharisee, saducee, scribe or elevate themselves to that of ministry overseers. I have no doubt that should Jesus bend down and write on the senate floor each of these antagonists would run to the hills lest their own sins be revealed.
The Lord himself admonises us to not judge another masters servant before his time. He is accountable only to his own master. His master will judge him.
The government leaders 2000 years ago made similiar mistakes and even knowingly allowed false witnesses to be hear to show themselves right before the populas vote and thus crucified an innocent man.
Bottom line, I personally would rather face my maker accused of preaching God’s salvation and prosperity than be a politician on the take by trying to make a name for himself and hurting good ministries in the name of violating some non-profit rule.
These type personalities did the same thing 2000 years ago as I said and sentenced an innocent man to death. One would think that we would learn from history to avoid repeating the same…
Sincerly,
R. Elmo McKenzie

“I would like to know the senate’s qualifications for such a pursuit. The IRS deals with such matters.”
I’m guessing if the IRS had dealt with it the Senate would have been happy to stay out of it. Religion is not something politicians wander happily into except to pander to large religious groups, often at the expense of almost everyone including many in the large groups.
“The holy book advised strict guidance in such matters.”
There are so many “holy” books. And so little foundation to any.
“The Lord himself admonises us to not judge another masters servant before his time. He is accountable only to his own master.”
So you are saying leave criminals be? Or just criminals who preach?
“The government leaders 2000 years ago made similiar mistakes and even knowingly allowed false witnesses to be hear to show themselves right before the populas vote and thus crucified an innocent man.”
Maybe you are not a Christian, Elmo. I’m not, but it’s my understanding Christians consider Jesus’s tribulation all part of “God”‘s plan so surely no blame is due anyone who was just a cog in the machine.

nnmns,
I appreciate your vote of confidence, or at least that I am excluded from the list of scammers, cons, and disreputables.
To some degree I feel a little like the folks who saidsomething to the effect that “they came for the _________, and I said nothing; the came for the ____________, and I did nothing; they came for the _______________, and I admitted nothing, now they have come for me, and I have no one to whom I can turn.”
The IRS beam is now shining on the UCC for inviting Sen. Obama to speak at our biennial gathering in June. Our own tax exempt status is under investigation. I think the key difference is that rather than blustering and offering counter-charges, the UCC leaders will be glad to offer any and all documents and information the IRS requests. I was at the event in question and will gladly say that there was NO politicking encouraged or even allowed. His speech was one of several from prominent folks about the role of UCC and its congregations in their lives.
So, I guess the summary here is, if they are unwillng to co-operate, there may well be something to hide. If they do co-operate, there may be something of worth. But nothing, no one, no how escapes the fiery beam of the I-R-S!

I enjoy the preachers and their teaching on TBN!!! I tithe as the Lord has ordered his children… this is called obedience. I spend time with the lord in prayer and ask for his perfect will to be done… in everything I do… including money. We are to render unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar…Pay Tax!!! Just remember this… one day we will all stand before God!!! If these pastors are falsely accused, They are to do as Christ did when he was facing the same thing. If these pastors are cheats, the only one they need to fear is Our Heavenly Father… It’s that simple.

nnmns-
To some degree I feel a little like the folks who saidsomething to the effect that “they came for the _________, and I said nothing; the came for the ____________, and I did nothing; they came for the _______________, and I admitted nothing, now they have come for me, and I have no one to whom I can turn.”
There is a large difference with this. When the Germans came for the: educated, Jews, people who wore glasses, lgbt people…they took them away for who they were. This inquiry is not about who these preachers are….the inquiry is about what they are doing and/or have done.
I have nothing against any of these six preachers…although I do not neccessarily subscribe to what some of them proclaim. However, if they are anyone else is not following the tax regulations and/or are swindling people…they should make ammends.
This not an issue of theology. It is an issue of ethic and following tax regulataions.
For the record, I do not subscribe to “the ends justify the means”…nor, the “if they have nothing to worry about why should they care”. Sen Grassley is following established procedures…and, seems to be a credible politician (based on his actions in the past).
Peace!

n verdugo:
It is obviously your money to do with as you choose. You said that if the pastors are cheats, all they need to fear is “Our Heavenly Father”. Yes, your Heavenly Father later, after the IRS and possible jail time for being charletans, before the trip to the big TV station in the sky.

All ministries should have protocols for accountability in handling money. As the administrator of a tax-exempt organization and a former parish minister, I don’t encourage people to hand me cash or to send in money directly to me. Most of our financial gifts pass through the hands of local churches and denominations that provide a paper trail should I ever be replaced by someone less honest. I also have a treasurer and a bookkeeper, who help to maintain accountability of our funds. I also encourage people to give locally or through organizations that have similar or higher standards of accountability. One of the many problems that I have with the non-denominational movement that is spreading in this country is that it is actually encouraging people to make donations to ministries with little or no oversight in theology, money, sexual misconduct or a whole host of other issues. Any organization that is not prepared to open up their books to a duly appointed legal authority for review is an organization that I would not send my money to.

mystery poster:
Sounds like you have covered your bases well, but unfortunately many folks are suckered into giving because of the “faith” they have in the jerk that is doing the “preaching.” I totally agree that any organization that isn’t welling to open their books for review is probably hiding something. The money sent in by folks is financing the “preacher’s” luxury life style, and that makes it a tax situation, not a non-profit religious organization situation.