This is good news.
‘Pope Benedict XVI said in a 2005 speech to Italian priests that the West was “a world that is tired of its own culture, a world that has arrived at a time in which there’s no more evidence of the need for God, much less Christ, and in which it seems that man alone can make himself.”‘
He’s right. People create gods if they think they need them. Times in the US, at least, are going to get a lot tougher thanks to Bush and the rest of the Republicans, and some people will be tempted to throw themselves on one god or another for help, which it won’t give. Bush may have done more for religion, by making things so very bad, than he imagines.
“one sees that the great churches appear to be dying.”
Now if the rest would just follow along we’d be in somewhat better shape.

Isn’t this what the Apostles and Christ Jesus said was going to happen? Ever seen wheat seperated from the chaff? Ummm,, why are we Christians surprised? And just a word to the wise, “The Church” is not a big building with colorful glass and and lots of rituals. While Humanism with its Liberal and Progressive doctrines, poisons and sickens the world embracing it, Christians will always be safe in the Hand that they cannot be snatched out of. There were far darker hours for Christians at the beginning of the Church. We are closing in on times similar to Noah’s day. Only this time, there will be more people with the righteous Leader. Notice how extremly similar Liberals and Progressives (Humanists) are to the people of Noah’s day, or, that of Lot’s. It’s amazing how uncanny the Bible is in representing human nature. Nothing new under the sun.

“While Humanism with its Liberal and Progressive doctrines, poisons and sickens the world embracing it”
Like let’s imprison child molesters, let’s don’t just pass them on to another parish? Like let’s don’t enslave women in the Magdalene laundries run by nuns in Ireland as recently as 2000?
Like teaching real biology and real sex education instead of false information? Like letting a woman control her body instead of taking away that right?
No thanks, Donny, I’ll pass up your pretend god with your interpretations of what it wants.

“Christians will always be safe in the Hand that they cannot be snatched out of.”
Donny, Donny stop and consider that that hand almost surely doesn’t exist. There really is no evidence for your god, or any god. You may well imagine it’s talking to you but no one else can tell that, and that’s the only kind of evidence there is. So to pin your happiness on an invisible hand is one thing, but to pin it on a nonexistent hand is the height of foolishness.
And I’ll bet you pay to participate in your religion, don’t you? It’s one thing if it’s free; a whole different thing if people are profiting by misleading you.

“…and in which it seems that man alone can make himself.”
Well, Nnmns, I don’t know about your experience with people, but frankly I don’t trust them to figure out how to do things for themselves. For example, I just made the incredibly stupid choice of getting into a big fight with some family members, and while “myself” would really like to go on being mad, all my religiously-based lessons on kindness and truth are telling me that I need to go and apologize now. Not that this has much to do with a drop in the Catholic priesthood; just preparing “myself” for the task here.
God bless.

It’s good that there are fewer priests??? Consider that all our laws originally derived from religious teachings. Without obedience to God, we are left with obedience to man, who can be self-centered and self-serving.
As for the proof of God, there are many philosophical proofs. For one of the more common, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinquae_viae . You are free to believe or not, although I don’t understand how a story about numbers of priests is related to the existance of God anyway.
As for the few religious that are abusive, I guess we should also hope for a reduction in the number politicians, lawyers, teachers, policemen, day care workers, coaches, physicians, and dentists, among others, as some of these have all preyed on their clients as well.

Joey, just go do it. My common sense might well tell me the same thing, as might your common sense without any need of religiously-based lessons.
On the other hand, if you were right and they were wrong and it’s an important issue you might want to not exactly apologize but try to get back on a communicating level. Anyway, good luck.

Seems that a lot of folks are getting smarter. Also wonder if the “no sex for you” might just be asking a lot of men and women as a life long obligation and they’re thinking “that’s just totally un-natural”.
“Mentioning Austrailia, Europe and the United States, the Pontiff said in that speech that “one sees the great churches appear to be dying.”
Benny is very observant, huh?
As for the Apostles and JC predicting this? Whatever bakes your cake, Donny. I expect you can even predict that there will be an end to the world and you and your buddies will be saved, because you followed all the rules. All this based on a man made book, written many,many years after JC died, and super many times rewritten to suit the mood at the time. There have been cries for the end of the world since…well since JC died. Not a worry for me or lots of others.

Happy there’s fewer new clergy because a few were abusers? Then let’s hope we see similar declines in the number of new politicians, lawyers, dentists, teachers, doctors, coaches, day care workers, and therapists, since some of them are abusers too.
And how did a news article about fewer religious turn into a debate about the existence of God anyway? If you don’t believe, why do you care?

The RC has been dying since the mass-production of the printing press. The greatest enemy to catholicism always has been and continues to be literacy, education and (IMHO) overall enlightenment. As we become better educated and more aware, we will naturally trend towards systems of philosophy and belief that are self-tailored, self-ratified and self-assumed, rather than simply accepting the doctrine and dogma into which we were born. This is why we are engaged in such a battle over science (evolutionary biology) and faith-based (creationism, ID, pastafarianism, etc.) educational systems.
Respectfully, I can’t see how this could be anything but good news for our species and our planet.

“And how did a news article about fewer religious turn into a debate about the existence of God anyway?”
Someone brought up a fictitious giant sheltering hand; I assumed that would be the hand of “God”. If there’s another giant hand in Christian mythology please let me know.
“If you don’t believe, why do you care?”
I share a world with all these people who sometimes vote based on their superstitions and it has a real impact on me and my loved ones. Too many of them vote against real sex education and teaching real biology in schools. Too many of them vote for people who ignore global warming, our most dire longer term problem. And for people who run our economy into the ground to continue to fight a needless war because their faith-based decisions have been utterly disastrous.
I could go into more detail on those things but won’t unless pushed.

w you gave an URL for five proofs of “the existence of God” by Aquinas. I hope no one is convinced by them in these days but I’ll comment on them just in case. I’m sure others could demolish them in different ways.
The first two have as one assumption that there cannot be an infinite regress of something or other. Anyone who’s taken very much calculus is familiar with infinite sequences of things and even infinite series of things. For those who didn’t, here’s a version of Zeno’s Paradox: You can’t go to church. To go to church you’d first have to go half way. But to go half way you’d first half to go a fourth of the way. But to go a fourth of the way you’d first have to go an eighth of the way. And so forth. So this infinite regress of tasks proves you can’t go to church. Stay in bed Sunday morning, have coffee, read the paper. Improve yourself.
The third claims there must be something from which everything else sprang. Quantum mechanics, which works wonderfully well even if no one really understands it, says something springs from nothing all the time. And anyway there’d be the issue of where that first thing came from.
The fourth depends on the existence of “perfection” but any fool knows perfection is in the mind of the beholder, not out in the universe.
The fifth requires that all things “act for ends”. That idea is based on a total lack of knowledge of physics; back when he wrote that people thought it was “God”, not momentum, that kept rocks moving after they were thrown.
And anyway, even if one actually fell for those arguments, they would “prove” the existence of five things which would not have to be the same, would not have to be sentient and certainly none of them would have to be any version of a Christian god. Those five proofs are utter and total failures.

I don’t think the Pontiff is right about the great churches dying. Roman Catholics are just starting to apply Jesus teachings to their own lives, and seeing how driven they have been by their leaders. They will probably join reformed Catholic Churches, etc. and go on to a more personal walk with God in much of all the Catholic beliefs and customs.

Roland said: “The RC has been dying since the mass-production of the printing press.”
Really??? That has to be one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve seen on these news threads, and I’ve seen quite a few competitors for that title from nay-sayers of the Church. The Roman Catholic Church in the 16th century was 55% of all Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church today is about 55% of all Christianity (1.1 billion out of 2 billion). Christianity has over 2 billion adherents. Do the math in that brain God gave you and figure it out. The RCC is anything but dying. The number of religious is decreasing in the developed world…this is monks, nuns, priests, etc. But I see a recent upswing in seminarians too in just the past few years with some hard facts from some nearby seminaries. That, my friend, is great news!

Another ridiculous claim by Roland: “The greatest enemy to catholicism always has been and continues to be literacy, education and (IMHO) overall enlightenment.”
The Roman Catholic Church is the foremost creator of universities and centers of learning in the world. The Church preserved literacy through the middle ages. I doubt you would know how to read if it wasn’t for the Church. Where on earth did you go to high school, as most know of this by that time.
Henrietta said: “Roman Catholics are just starting to apply Jesus teachings to their own lives…”
They’ve been doing it for centuries. Ever hear of saints? Wow… you people seriously need to put your anti-Catholic bigotries behind you and do some research.

nmns,
When I think of myth’s I can’t help but see it homosexual behavior. What is actually believed in that life choice is a violation of the human anatomy. Something we can see and prove works in a designed way. You by use of scientific methods. Last time I looked at my biology book – which was thre-seconds ago – I see opposition to the gay agenda in immutable terminolgy. I’ll be back with a physiology book if you need more science challenging personal beliefs and personal “feelings.”
I’ve liked science. It proves the existence of God better than most religions.
0 x 0 = atheism. Not the physical world.
Bubbye.

“I’ve like science. It proves the existence of God better than most religions.”
Not the science books I read, Donny.
” 0×0 = athesim. Not the physical world. What?
BTW Donny, what has this topic, decline in religious orders, have to do with homosexuality?

“Last time I looked at my biology book – which was thre-seconds ago – I see opposition to the gay agenda in immutable terminolgy.”
You’ll have to give me a quote from your book. I’m getting nothing from your post. 0.

“Roland said: “The RC has been dying since the mass-production of the printing press.”
Really??? That has to be one of the more ridiculous statements I’ve seen on these news threads,”
Well, you’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but I stand by mine. I do not accept your statistics, as those I’ve seen are very different. Furthermore, I’m going somewhat on personal experience. I know many folks who’s grandparents are indoctrinated in to RC, but who’s parents rejected it. I know more still who’s parents are afflicted, but who themselves have rejected it. My lineage and that of my wife are christian, but our children are certainly not growing up under the influence of fear and control upon which I perceive the church to be built. It is my observation that, here in the West where we enjoy a reasonably high standard of living, the luxury of higher education and the time and opportunity to think for ourselves, the old dogmatic systems are dying. The churches in my city are all empty. As it is for the pope, it is my observation, that the church is dying.
As for the church contributing to education…..well, again you’re entitled to your opinion. I’ve seen nothing but the spreading of false information, the suppression of science (from before Galileo to modern day Kansas) the burning of libraries at Alexandria (I will never forgive that) and the systematic mass murder of people with different opinions.
The printing press and other forms of mass communication have made it much more difficult to suppress these and other atrocities committed by the RC. People are asking questions. The answers, for many (most?) of us, are unsatisfactory.

Roland:
Considering that literacy opened the RCC to questions from it’s followers, I can see how this would bring some to leave the church. The more folks who could read, and write, the more they could question. The church could no longer “control” through fear, which even into the ’50′s and ’60 and longer they continued to try to do. There was never any room for questions, and they basicly told the kids to not accept any other ideas from friends who were of another religion. My husband, as a child, asked one of his Catholic friends a question and the child asked the priest. The priest told him NOT to see my husband again, as he wasn’t Catholic. The kid from that day on refused to go back to church. Smart boy. Heck, a Catholic wasn’t even allowed to enter another church, which I always thought was a stupid rule. Nuns could use physical means to discipline children in RCC schools, and would put up with no questioning of THE DOCTRINE as set by the Big Dude. I had friends who as adults left the RCC and vowed their kids would never attend a Catholic school because of the nuns and their methods, as well as the “I’m the boss” from the priests. To the credit of the RCC, the physical methods of the nuns is no longer allowed…10 years of teaching in a Catholic school (with only 1 nun on staff) showed me that things are not as strict as they used to be and nuns are definitely in short supply. Most teachers are lay folks…some Catholic and some not, as I wasn’t. Also to the credit of the school I was in, sex education and birth control methods were taught to the upper grades…6,7,and 8th graders. They even learned about condoms (and demonstrated the use..banana’s are good for that). That wouldn’t have happened in the ’60′s and ’50′s or before. The rule was : natural birth control. Must have those babies…after marriage of course.
Fortunately here in the West, there is more questioning, and fewer Robot Catholics. Apparently the RCC has started to spread it’s message more in Africa and Asia ,of how great they are. Probably in competition with the Evangelicals. Anyhow, no shortage of priests in those countries. Hope the priests keep their hands off the kids in Africa and Asia. So the RCC isn’t the almighty church any longer that it thought it used to be.

Roland said: “I do not accept your statistics, as those I’ve seen are very different.”
Please tell me where you obtain your statistics. What I cite are on any available encyclopedic source, online or otherwise. The RCC constitutes 1.1 billion members. Now there are some that are little more than RC in name only, but all religions have those. Also, where are you (country, or part of the country would more than suffice)? My experience with RC churches out here is they are all booming and overflowing with parishioners. One has to get there at least 15 minutes if you want a halfway decent seat…and forget about any seats available within 5 minutes of Mass time. They need more churches out here! This is in the Midwest USA.
When it comes to theology, the more I think for myself, the more I realize how little I know. I am glad you think you are a theological expert as I am by no means one. That is where I lean on others for their knowledge…no different than I would a doctor for medical knowledge, for example. We all aren’t the foremost experts on everything. If you said you were, I’d call you a liar. It’s no different than relying on the RCC’s long history for theological knowledge.
“I’ve seen nothing but the spreading of false information, the suppression of science (from before Galileo to modern day Kansas) the burning of libraries at Alexandria (I will never forgive that) and the systematic mass murder of people with different opinions.” (emphasis mine)
Absolutist statements like that is what makes you hard to believe and/or not too reliable. All they do is spready false information? Wow, how on earth did they survive 2000 years? The RCC is responsible for Kansas? I am assuming you are talking about the evolution vs. creationism debate? Good grief, they weren’t involved in that at all! That was some fundamentalist Protestants. Anything else you care to blame the RCC for? Oh yeah, the burning of the Library of Serapis at Alexandria? Wow, you seemed to have taken that personally? Alive back then were you? Well…it was in Egypt, and Copts live in Egypt, so go ask the Eastern Christians about that one, but of course, Pagans NEVER committed atrocities, right? Look at the whole history of the Roman Empire prior to Constantine for a whole smorgasboard of that. Systematic mass murder of people with different opinions? Hard to imagine, since there are 6 billion people out there with differing opinions. Your claim would give the RCC 99.9% of all people on earth. Again, pagans never killed people with differing opinions, did they? Your claims are just too humorous! At least it gave me a good chuckle today!

Anonymous said:
“Please tell me where you obtain your statistics. What I cite are on any available encyclopedic source, online or otherwise. The RCC constitutes 1.1 billion members. Now there are some that are little more than RC in name only, but all religions have those. Also, where are you (country, or part of the country would more than suffice)?”
Well, you are hardly sited the source of your statistics. You are merely suggesting that they are readily available in what you consider to be highly reliable sources. Statistics are almost always biased by the reporter and become further obfuscated as they are repeated. I have heard from many (like you) that the numbers of people affiliated with the RCC is static or growing in leaps and bounds. I have also heard and read that the numbers are declining. I’ve heard this from obviously “anti” christian sources, but also from “pro” christian sources who (IMO) appear to be making a call to arms to their members to increase evangelicism or justify higher contributions at the collection plates. All very sad, to me. We could get into battles over statistical accuracy, but i don’t see the point. I don’t trust them, and i am more interested in the your opinion/experiences and the opinions/experiences of than others, anyway.
Anonymous also said:
“My experience with RC churches out here is they are all booming and overflowing with parishioners. One has to get there at least 15 minutes if you want a halfway decent seat…and forget about any seats available within 5 minutes of Mass time. They need more churches out here! This is in the Midwest USA.”
As for my wherabouts, I live in San Francisco, known for diversirty, tolerance, and movements based on new and independent thought. We enjoy proximity to Cal and Stanford, two of the most prestigious institutions of higher learning in the country, neither of which are obligated to the influences and lobbying of any religious overseer. And (again my opinion) this city and others like it are often a harbinger of change that eventually reaches places like the midwest, the deep south and will eventually extend to all parts of the globe. (Admittedly, I’m an optimist). In my city, the RC churches are empty, congregations consolidate, consolidate again, and then either collapse or go elsewhere. It seems we are very busy learning to get along with each other, taking care of one and other, and developing our own systems of beliefs. The remaining churches are very sad looking, desolate buildings…..grand in design, opulent and boastful but so obviously failed in its ability to maintain control over the populace. They are more and more becoming museums, tourist attractions and architectural curiosities.
Anonymous then said:
“When it comes to theology, the more I think for myself, the more I realize how little I know. I am glad you think you are a theological expert as I am by no means one. That is where I lean on others for their knowledge…no different than I would a doctor for medical knowledge, for example.”
I appreciate your opinion, but to me, my spirit and my system of belief are far to important to turn over wholesale to any organization, especially one with such a checkered history. I claim to be an expert on nothing but my own being. But that domain, to me, like many who practice open-canon systems of belief is sacred. In this respect I am neither sheep nor flock…I have no shepherd nor master. I am free to believe what i choose, and I am free to reconsider it, change it and refine it as my experience, knowledge and awareness evolve. It is a wonderful way to live, and I am truly sorry for anyone who turns over their beliefs wholesale to any institution. It is to me the most egregious of all forms of slavery.
As for the history of the RCC, I appreciate your defense of something that you hold dear in spite of what I consider to be overwhelming evidence of systematic abuse, war, murder and manipulation, all at the expense of the dignity of humanity and the planet at large. It may well be that somehow you have had very positive experiences with the RCC and that you benefit greatly from it. If so, I think that is wonderful. My experiences, and the experiences of most of the people I know have been dehumanizing, manipulative, fear-and-guilt ridden and otherwise abysmal. I think we are both above engaging in a flame war, and i am certainly above personal attacks, so I think on the subject of history we will have to respectfully (i hope) disagree.

I see I should have gone back and explained myself better about saying that Roman Catholics are starting to see Jesus differently than the RCC has allowed them to down back through the ages. I have to defend my remarks to a person who doesn’t even respect us enough to put a name down on the post. Here it goes, I have more time than I did this a.m. I’m quoting a RCC lady from St. Louis, MO who belongs to a Polish RCC Church, she and the rest of her Parrish love their Polish Priest, who has been reprimmended for not following Rome. This is a Polish Congregation, and he is a Priest from Poland. I can’t remember all the fine points about this, but he is being threatened to be defrocked and the Church is in sorrow about this. Many will leave and join the Reformed American Catholic Order if this happens, as he will probably do also. Not all is happy in the RCC Church, and they are finally standing up and saying no to Rome. It should have happened long ago. It will happen more and more. Just watch your news. There are many people, my relatives included that are more than happy to follow with no question, but now others are waking up and finding they do not want to be absorbed, but to enjoy and worship differently, but still with much of the Catholic doctrine.

Henrietta22, I live in the St. Louis area so I am well accustomed to the antics of those that worship their ethnicity over God, which is what is happening at St. Stanislaus parish. Their priest, Marek Bozek has turned to heretical ways and as far as I am concerned, he and his followers would be good riddance for the Church. Hmmm…oh yeah, they’ve already left the RCC, so not really missing them. If they ever want to come home to Rome, they are more than welcome, but if they wish to embrace heresy, then please, please, GO!! He had trouble in Poland, so fled here, saw an opportunity to disobey his bishop, whom he took a vow of obedience to, and continues to stir trouble in another diocese. It really and truly is as simple as this: if you don’t believe in the doctrines and teachings of the RCC, then you’re not RC! By going to the Reformed American Catholic Order, they can worship their ethnicity and still feel like they’re going to church. I am sorry, but national holidays, like Polish Constitution Day have no business being celebrated at church. I think Jesus would have a problem with those that worship their ethnicity…
Please take your anti-Catholic bigotry somewhere else. For the tolerance you claim to have, I see none of it here.

Roland, very well, we shall disagree on just about everything, LOL. But you coming from San Fran explains much to me now. Yes, I think the Church is dying there, but that is because the people have embraced secularism and worldly things and are uber liberal to say the least. I guess it depends on which side of the aisle you’re seated on which explains our differing views.

Henrietta:
There can only be improvement in the RCC if some of the congregations are willing to stand up to the total control of Rome. If the priest isn’t following Rome exactly, but is sticking to the “truths” of the church, why would that be a problem? I know you don’t know the details and I hope that members of the church in St. Louis don’t find it necessary to leave their church, as they are, I’m sure, strong in their beliefs.
Wouldn’t you think Benny would realize he may be driving folks from the church? Hey, he is already losing nun-candidates and priest candidates. That can’t be good for perpetuating the church. Well, since the African and Asian areas are continuing to get recruites, he can pull from there for the West.

Pagansister:
Thanks for your insights. It is my understanding, that protestantism was born largely out of the work of Martin Luther, who, upon reading the bible realized that the RCC was surreptitiously collecting money from its “followers” based on false pretenses, supported nowhere in the bible. Among other falsities, vatican agents (abbots?) were collecting funds from people for the release of un-baptised ancestors from purgatory and into heaven. What a cash cow that must have been!
Once the bible was translated into a language accessible by the general populace, these manipulations were more difficult to propagate, though by no means impossible…..in fact they continue to this day, except that now much of the funds are diverted to legal teams and PR firms. There has never been a more effective agent of funds (tax) extraction and collection than the vatican. Most impressive of all, in todays age of (increased) enlightenment, it continues to operate, though with reduced success.
A funnt story: Over the holidays, my local family visited extended family in one of the bible-belt states. My then 4 year old daughter asked me why everybody used the word “christmas” instead of “the holidays”. I explained to her that they still used old language when describing the holidays. She frowned and asked me, “well, what about other people, like us or her hindi or buddhist friends; did they still get to have a celebration?” I tried to explain that there were mostly christian people here, and that they did not understand well enough to really worry much about how people of other religions felt. She said it sounded very sad and boring and that she was glad that we lived in San Francisco. I reminded her that we must always be kind and understanding of others even if they are different from us. That we are all brothers and sisters and that there are no “bad” people, only people with different levels of understanding or enlightenment, who sometimes to harmful things to themselves or others. She asked me if they would get better. I smiled and said, “Well daughter, I think they will. Indeed, Ithink they will.”
Which brings us back to the subject of this article.

San Francisco is one of the coolest cities I’ve ever visited. If it wasn’t so far from family, and I had a ton of money, I’d love to live there.

Please take your anti-catholic bigotry somewhere else. For the tolerance you claim to have, I see none of it here.
Wow! thats not a nice thing to say to me. I wrote an observation of why I think people are leaving the RCC, and you’re attacking me. First of all I am not a RCC member, and I’m looking at this from a sympathetic view-point for this Polish Church, and its’ much loved Priest Bozek. I was brought up Lutheran, we follow our Father, Son, and Holy Spirit very well without a Pope. So excuse me for thinking my way, but don’t be insulting and an attacker because I don’t agree with you.

Anonymous wrote:
“Roland, very well, we shall disagree on just about everything, LOL. But you coming from San Fran explains much to me now. Yes, I think the Church is dying there, but that is because the people have embraced secularism and worldly things and are uber liberal to say the least.”
First of all, thanks for the engagement.
Now, I would challenge you to reconsider the convenient and IMO wholly misinformed notion that San Franciscans have embraced secularism. The coffee shops and restaurants here are full of people engaged in the exchange of ideas on theology and religion. It is a fascinating crucible in which to forge ideas and beliefs. This is one of the many reasons that I love it here. Please consider that, not embracing your particular set of prescribed and pre-packaged beliefs does not equate to secularism. My personal experience is that of being surrounded by a deeply religious people.
As far as “worldly things”, most of us give up 1000s of square feet of home and even more of property to live her so we can be close to other people with whom we can exchange ideas and from whom we can learn new things. We give up multiple cars, swimming pools, garages and manicured front lawns for tiny row houses so we can ride the breakers of the tides of social change. We are, in my experience, hardly a set beholden to or otherwise enslaved by the acquisition of worldly things.
As for uber-liberal, well, i don’t even know how that factors in to a discussion of religion, except to reflect that “liberal” shares its etymology with “freedom”, and i am (obviosuly) biased towards a system of beliefs that is born out of the freedom to think for one-self, rather than what i perceive as the lack of freedom prescribed by a a system that says “accept what I tell you or else (you’ll burn for all eternity in a great fire).” In that sense, i could see how someone with different beliefs could see me as “uber-liberal”.

Roland:
You seem to have a very wise daughter! May I ask what bible belt state? Much of my younger years and married years were in the deep south but not any more, as I’m in New England, but I have sisters (who are devout Christians) still in the south as well as my 2 grown children (north FL). My kids are not Christians. Raised in the UU church, encouraged to find their own path. However as a family we did/do use the word Christmas, but is/was not celebrated as a holy day…but a day when the birth of Jesus,who in our house represented the birth of all children, was celebrated, and was a time to have extended family together for eating,drinking and giving gifts to those we love. Did that make sense?
Yes, Martin Luther raised havoc with the RCC. The church was quite a nice business for the priests and popes etc. They just held “hell” over the heads of the people , but as you said, with enough money, you could buy folks into heaven.
Mystery poster 2/6/08 9:27 PM:
Hentietta is a very tolerant person. She even respects “pagans”. She isn’t anti-Catholic. She and I admire a group that pushes back against a bully Pope. Why shouldn’t a group, in this case, Polish, be able to celebrate a holiday that is important to them? How does that hurt Benny?
“I think Jesus would have a problem with those that worship their ethnicity”.
Guess he’d better kick out the Irish then!

Henrietta/pagansister, that “priest” at St. Stanislaus is not following the beliefs of the Church. That is the whole problem. It is not that he is not following Rome “exactly”, he is not following anything! Not Rome, not his bishop in Poland, Cape Girardeau-Springfield, not St. Louis! He is no longer a priest with canonical responsibility in the RCC. St. Stanislaus is no longer a RCC. It has been removed. The parishioners, frankly, can do anything they want now. They got their wish. Just don’t call themselves Roman Catholic.
You both obviously get a very skewed sense of the problem. I also know a parishioner there, I live there, and am Catholic, so I get both sides of the issues, and Bozek has clearly gone off the deep end. Trust me (for once).
OK, celebrating your Polish Constitution Day is not the crux of the problem, but it certainly alienates non-Poles, but Catholics, that went to worship there. That is my whole problem with ethnic churches…they alienate, they don’t welcome. At least that’s the general rule. I am sure there are exceptions.
Henrietta…it sure seemed like you were attacking the RCC, so I took offense. If that was not your intention, then accept my apologies.

Your apology is accepted unknown poster.
For others who don’t know what this is all about I looked up some info: Bozek is a 33 yr. old priest from Poland who was ordained in the Springfield Cape Girardeau Diocese in 2002, and left his position at St. Agnes Cathedral in Springfield in 2006 to take on the job of pastor of St. Stanislaus Kostka in St. Louis. He was told to go back to St. Agnes, and he refused because the people of St. Stanislaus had needs and he could help them. The parish of St. Stan. had also been in a battle with the archbishop over its independence and ownership of the Churches property. It had been these Polish peoples property for many, many years. Of course the RCC had to take control, as they do in everything so the fight was on. I think this all took off after this new Pope came in. If it wasn’t a problem before when Pope John was alive and Pope, and wasn’t he Polish?, also. It became one fast after. Nobody fights city hall in the RCC, but Bozek has for the love of his people and the justice, and may God go with all of them, and I know He will.

Roland, your posts bring back so many wonderful memories of San Francisco, and the people there. We left our hearts there on the hills back in ’88 when our son died. It was our second home for eight years, and we were priviledged to see it through the eyes of people who actually lived there, and not the tourists passing through. Do you remember the “lady with the dog in the box” who used to stand in front of the Emporium for years? I think of her and wonder how she is, and what she is doing. People have hearts in San Francisco, and I’m a better person for having experienced all of you and your beautiful city.

Henrietta, once again, I think you completely misunderstand the problem at St. Stanislaus. The bishop is the nominal owner of all RCC parishes in his diocese. That’s the way it is. So the battle over independence and ownership is a non-issue and St. Stans was not in compliance. They were granted a charter when they first came over that allowed them some autonomy back in the early 20th century. But over time were told to come more into compliance with other parishes and they refused. Most bishops avoided direct confrontation, and allowed it to simmer, but recently (and this was BEFORE Burke became our archbishop) there has been a bigger push for St Stans to come into compliance. This happened WHILE JPII was Pope. They are no more special than any other parish, so the bishops are correct here in forcing more compliance on ownership and corporate setup.
I have met Marek Bozek face to face. I have spoken with him. I have been to St. Stans and have spoken with parishioners and personally know one of them. I am familiar with both sides of the story, and the archbishop is in the right here, not St. Stans. The charter granted to them was never meant to be permanent, and St Stans is abusing it. It is not a matter of Bozek caring for the people. His theological beliefs are marginal at best anyway, and he further abuses his position by getting involved in a very delicate matter. May God allow the parishioners of St. Stans to see the error of their ways and to come back into communion with Rome.

Obviously all I know about the St. Stan problem is what I’ve read here, with the viewpoints of 2 folks. Bozek is 33? He’s younger than my children. He just might represent a new breed of priests who feel that there is way to much control by the upper folks in the RCC. Also, isn’t Burke the archbishop who stuck his nose into St. Louis University’s coach, telling the school it ought to discipline him, since the coach (on his personal time) had attended a pro-choise rally?
Mystery poster: You wrote that St. Stan’s had been booted out of the RCC. So if the folks there aren’t considered RCC are they just considered Catholic? There are, I’m sure, as many versions of that as there are other denominations. The RCC and the Orthodox Catholics argue over things and have for centuries, so this may just be the start of another version of Catholic faith. The Episcopal church had to start somewhere!

pagansister: another problem with the folks at St. Stans, since the parish is officially beyond the bounds of the RCC, is that they continue to advertise themselves as “Roman Catholic”. This they cannot do if they are outside the bounds of the RCC. Frankly, they can call themselves anything they want (including using the name Catholic), as long as it isn’t Roman Catholic.
If Bozek is a new breed of priest for the Church, then God help us. As a seminarian for the RCC, one knows what the structure of the Church is like and one knows what one is getting in to from the get go. The decision to enter the priesthood is never a spur of the moment decision but is formed over many years. Bozek is doing this to merely fester discord and disharmony within the Church, and as such, if he ever does rejoin the RCC, needs to be put in a place far, far away from parishes so he does not deceive again.
And yes, Burke is the archbishop here (another whom I’ve met and spoken with) and he is doing a fine job. He is misunderstood at times by liberal Catholics and non-Catholics, but he is doing what a bishop should do (admonish if the faithful stray from teachings of the Church). He may have overstepped his bounds saying that he should be disciplined by SLU, but his remarks on pointing out that it is extremely difficult to be RC and believe what Majerus does, is spot on.

If Bozek is a new breed of priest for the Church, then God help us.
Perhaps Bozek cares more for Jesus words and teachings….more than Pope made laws, and ceremony, control and ritual? Perhaps he sees a need in his Polish congregation’s lives that the RCC isn’t meeting, and suppose his way of love and leadership is right? Why should people assume God isn’t leading Priest Bozek?

I’m willing to back the priest…and if he indeed feels like he is doing the right thing…and his God is guiding him, then he and his congregation will be no worse off for it. Everyone believes in a god differently…even after years of seminary training, which Bozek had. Time will tell. The RCC doesn’t have to claim him…or he them. Rebels have been known to form new churches…Luthern, Episcopal, and others.