I’m glad to see that He was able to come out and say the he was sorry. I have to admit that I don’t know much about planned parenthood, except for the fact that they are for abortion. it still angers me sometimes that people don’t see abortion as taking an innocent life. in Sacred Scripture Marys sister said that the baby in her womb jumped for joy. She didn’t say that the fetal tissue in her womb jumped for joy. I am nobodys judge and jury, and I have enough of my own sins to deal with, but when are we gonna start taking this matter a little more seriously. the world crys about human rights, but the unborn don’t have any. its nice to see someone standing up and saying MY BAD every once in a while though, and that makes me happy.

Good to see a little bit of humble pie by the almighty Monsignor,as he obviously didn’t research the Komen Group before telling (again a favorite RCC policy…giving orders) parishioners to not make donations to an organization that helps another organization promote breast cancer awareness and examines.
fos&a:
You need to know that Planned Parenthood does a lot more than just abortions. It is a great place for women to get assistance with birth control methods, as well as other women’s issues. Yes, abortions are done there, but so are many other things . You are against abortion and you don’t have to have one, but it is really none of your business what other women may have to do. Absolutely none of your business at all. The fact that the Bible story says that Mary’s sister said that the baby jumped in her womb for joy really has nothing to do with it. The women I know who had to have an abortion did so because it was needed and they have never regreted it. Are you prepared to take care of all the unwanted babies born in this world? Birth control is a better choise, education also, but pregnancy happens accidently and unless that woman can get hold of the morning after pill, then an abortion might be necessary for her.

Actually, pagansister, if you’re against abortion for anything that even remotely resembles any classical Christian reason for being against abortion, it makes no sense to be content with just nothing having an abortion yourself but not caring what other people do with their pregnancies. If you believe that abortion kills a human being, you can’t be any more content with your own refusal to have abortion than an abolitionist would be content with his own refusal to own slaves. Now the dynamics of abortion are extremely complex, and the legal and social questions abortion raises may not have easy answers, but you can’t expect a pro-life Christian to simply be unconcerned with other women who choose to abort.
And in my opinion, a woman who has an abortion should regret it. She should feel bad. Even if there are cases where it seems nearly inevitable, she should not kill her child and not regret it. Even if there are cases where we can absolve her of guilt for the abortion, we shouldn’t expect her–no, we shouldn’t even want her–to feel no regret. Even if an abortion is necessary, it’s a necessary tragedy, and no one should participate in a tragic event without feeling some regret for having been forced to do so. Any woman who can have an abortion (and anyone else who can help or encourage it) without feeling some regret has lost a bit of her humanity, the way I see it.

Having no regret doesn’t mean that the woman comes to the decision easily. It is, under any circumstances, a hard decision. For the women that I knew/know the hard thought out decision was the right one at the time it was made. When looked back upon it was still the right one. No woman I know would desire to have to make the decision, but has the right to if necessary. Even with the best of intentions, no one has the right to tell a woman she is “killing her child” as that IMO isn’t true. Won’t go into the embryo etc. again. Early terminations are best…education on birth control,self responsibility, even better, but in the face of failure and circumstances, women have the right to safe and private abortions. Those who stand in front of clinics with their rants, and pictures, IMO are invading the pirvacy of the women who are going in.

I agree with everything you said Pagensister and was going to say the same thing, now I don’t need to. The Monsignor showed grace in apologizing when he checked it out. Before anyone attacks anyone we should all do the same, check out what we doubt.
Had a relative who had a brother with Muscular Dystrophy, and she herself had the beginnings of it. When she had her first child she was advised that he or she would carry the gene and would probably have it. He didn’t, but he has other problems. When her husband died and she remarried she became pregnant accidently, and she did have an abortion immediately. She has never regreted it, and now is wheelchair bound herself. People can’t help the way they think about abortion, but we all have our reasons for everything we do, and they are ours and should be respected. I don’t believe a soul enters a babies body until they are ready to be born, so I don’t have a problem with abortion. Many people feel and believe this, and have down through the ages, another reason why judgers and controllers should just take care of their own business, and leave others to take care of theirs.

Nate, I think we’ve been over this before but the RCC has often changed its mind on when abortion becomes “murder”.
In reality, of course, abortion is not murder in the sense of murdering a person for several reasons which I can go into.
Planned Parenthood does a lot of good in the world. The RCC is so obsessed about abortions they don’t give them the credit they deserve.
If you chose to give money to the RCC or to Planned Parenthood you’d do a lot more good with PP.

Nate-
Is there not a enough remorse and misery in the world with out suggesting that we make others feel regret and guilt?
Who are we to absolve someone else?
Peace!

pagansister & Henrietta22-
Great posts as usual.
H22, glad to see you back on the boards. I was starting to worry when I did not see you around for awhile.
Peace!

nnmns-
You keep posting that same link.
And, I am glad you do.
Please keep up the good work.
Peace!

As a group, religious spokes people need a manual clutch on their jaws. This would be something they would have to engage before they start flapping their tongues and making noises that are more noisome than noticeable.
Fools will always speak first and then try to figure out who they offended and why.

Pagansister,
It’s really not a matter of how difficult or easy the decision is. What’s morally relevent here, from a typical Christian pro-life view, is that someone has been killed. Anyone who kills another human being, even for good reason, ought not to be able to look on what they’ve done as an unqualified good. They ought to look on it as something regrettable. Of course, that’s only if they’re pro-life; if you’re not pro-life, I can’t see any reason why it should have even ever been a morally difficult decision to make in the first place.
Henrietta,
We don’t necessarily need to respect another person’s opinions on abortion any more than we need to necessarily respect a racist’s opinions on race or a misogynist’s opinions on gender roles. Respecting another person does not always mean respecting their ideas; sometimes, respecting the person demands that we despise the way they think. I despise any thought process that would deem the life of even the severely handicapped not worth living, but that’s just me.
nnmns,
I don’t much care about the history of the Catholic Church’s position on abortion, since neither am I Catholic nor do I hold a position on the theology of church history that should make me all too concerned with changes in Catholic teaching. I’m Orthodox, and from a typical Orthodox ontology of human personhood, abortion certainly qualifies as murder. I can’t check that belief at the door and try to address the question from an “objective” standpoint, because as Orthodox, the only objectivity I recognize is “ha on”, the Reality, Christ.
JohnQ,
There’s not nearly enough remorse over the evil in the world, no. If we were all truly good people, we’d spend our lives constantly gripped by an infinite pain over the world’s pain. Yes, especially when we become complicit in a tragic event (whether freely or by necessity), we ought to feel infinite remorse over the evil circumstances in which we’ve found ourselves.

Well Nate, since you persist in calling abortion murder I need to point out why it’s not murder of a person.
A person has friends who will miss them and feel very bad about what happened to them, and quite likely people who depend on him or her. a fetus does not have anyone but the potential mother and possibly the potential father and one or both of them were involved in the decision the abortion was necessary so there is no comparison of the social harm between a murder and an abortion.
A person who is murdered can feel the pain, at least very briefly and sometimes for a long time. And depending on the details the person may be afraid for minutes or hours or even worse. A zygote or embryo likely can’t feel pain and anyway an abortion should not take long to finish. None would have a reason to feel fear. So an abortion is much less traumatic than the murder of a person.
A person who is murdered represents an investment by society, starting with its parents and then the school system and on and on. The zygote/embryo/fetus does not.
So for any number of reasons an abortion is far less serious than the murder of a person. When you talk that way you may mislead people.

Nate-
I am Christian and I do not believe that abortion = killing another person.
I agree that it is important to respect one and other even if we do not agree with another person’s POV.
To really objectively ponder any topic I think one must be able to recogonize our pre-existing assumptions/beliefs and put them aside. I also think that if we understand where those assumptions/view originated…it makes it easier to put them aside. Whether one is Catholic or not…if one is Christian….what we have learned at church etc has been greatly shaped by the RCC.
Rather than being gripped by pain (becuase much of the world is in pain) I prefer to work to alleviate pain and suffering. Perpetuation guilt does not alleviate pain and suffering. If I personally were going to feel remorseful, it would be for failing to assist another in need and/or for encouraging someone to feel guilt.
Sometimes appologizing as the Monsignor has done does alleviate pain and suffering.
I am often critical of the actions of RCC leadership…so, I think it is important to acknowledge when a RCC leader has done something worthwhile.
I salute the Monsignor!
Peace!

The often used and horribly poor position that someone who doesn’t believe in abortion just shouldn’t have one and leave everyone else alone is a poor one. Obviously, if you believe that an injustice is being perpetrated on a human being you want to alleviate it.
I don’t agree with nnmns that life is only valuable because of the value placed on it by others, or its ability to feel pain. Life has intrinsic value and the potential in it alone is enough to want to protect it.
That said, life is not clear cut and sometimes horrible are justifiable, if for practical reasons alone.
And my opinion on this has zero to do with the RCC stance or the Bible as I am not a Christian.
I think that much of what Nate has commented has been ignored by the posters and I applaud him for his clear and concise arguement.
But I disagree that we should be in the grips of pain for the suffering of the world. God knows, I didn’t create it (pun intended).

Thanks for noticing I wasn’t around John Q. Away for a few days.

Henrietta22…..of course!
I am glad you are alright….missed your wisdom and insight. Happy you are back.
Peace!

Confessoressa-
“The often used and horribly poor position that someone who doesn’t believe in abortion just shouldn’t have one and leave everyone else alone is a poor one.”
I disagree. I have no problem with people who want to voice their opposition. I have a great problem with people who want to prevent others from making their own individual desicion on whether or not to have an abortion.
“Obviously, if you believe that an injustice is being perpetrated on a human being you want to alleviate it. ”
That is great….so do the things you can do…but, please do not impose your beliefs on others by preventing them from having the freedom to do what they believe is best with their own bodies.
“I think that much of what Nate has commented has been ignored by the posters and I applaud him for his clear and concise arguement.”
Well, maybe. Or, perhaps his points are not ignored…but rather just not agreed with.
Peace!

nnmns,
Sorry, but you’re forgetting that I’m a Christian. That means when I ask questions like “What is a person?” I’m seeking a theological answer. Robustly theological answers are rarely translatable into simple secular answers like the one you offered (which, I might add, is only one of numerous possible secular ways of approaching personhood).
Personhood for me, as an Orthodox Christian, is about the creatures relation to God more fundamentally than the creature’s relation to other creatures or any of the creature’s innate properties. Persons are “investments” by God before they ever become (or don’t become) investments by society. Given my deep theological understanding of certain Christian doctrines like the Trinity and the Incarnation, your approach to personhood makes no sense to me, and it never will make sense to me unless you fundamentally change my most basic religious convictions. As a junior scholar of Christian theology, I face the best counterpositions to my theology on an almost daily basis and form my own positions in dialogue with them, so if you intend to change my basic religious beliefs, I’ll warn you that you’ve got quite a task ahead of you.
But my more basic point is simply this: if you believe, for whatever reason, that abortion is murder, it makes no sense to be content with simply not having abortions of one’s own. One would want to help prevent other abortions as well.
JohnQ,
I don’t think there’s any necessary distinction between suffering and alleviating suffering. If the theologies of Jewish scholars like Abraham Heschel and liberal Protestants like Jurgen Moltmann have anything to say, suffering and alleviating suffering often go hand-in-hand. Suffering for and suffering with the downtrodden binds our own destinies to the destinies of the suffering ones and inevitably moves us to work towards the end of suffering. But our immediate goal should not be to end sympathetic suffering, the suffering one should feel for having been involved in an abortion (or any other tragedy). How can we claim to be living out the will of God if our goal is to stop suffering with those who suffer unjustly? Where do we get the idea that God opposes the suffering of sympathy, when the Son of God suffers for us on the cross?
Lament, not guilt, is what’s at issue here. If we really take God’s love seriously, we all ought to lament over our participation in evil, whether freely willed or inevitable, because we cannot stand the thought of anyone suffering and cannot bear the thought of being caught up systems of relationships that cause suffering.

NateW:
It’s called pro-choice. And since you’re not a woman, you will never have to make that hard decision whether you’ll continue a pregancy in your body. nnmns has made his usual good explanation of just what a person is etc. and I agree with it.
As a pro-lifer, how do you feel about the Christians and other religions who “value life” doing battle and killing others? The term pro-life can extend to much more than those against abortion. Abortion decisions are a personal, private decision…no- one no matter how zealous they are in their beliefs has the right to impose or blame or try to stop a woman from what she feels she has to do. Fortunately in this country a woman can still get a legal, safe abortion, and not resort to the underground, back alley, coat hanger places. That’s what would happen if this country tried to revese Roe V Wade.

Henrietta, Glad to have you back as expressed by JohnQ. Hope the trip was one for fun!

NateW:
I just thought of something you said. Mentioning that it shouldn’t be a morally difficult decision in the first place if you’re not pro-life. Are you saying that women who are pro-choice aren’t moral people? That’s a stretch. Women who have an abortion aren’t moral? I’m pro-choice (obviously) and I consider myself moral.
Like I said, you’re never going to have to make that decision. You’re a man.

Hey nnmns, why all of the catholic hate? why all of the hate in general? I v’e noticed that anytime I have stated a personal opinion on here, you have always responded back to my opinion with hatred. I have also noticed that you have alot of hatred torwards christians and the catholic faith itself, would you care to explain? I also noticed that you said that your money would do better going to Planned Parenthood, than it would going to the RCC. I tink that you are very uninformed as to how much that catholic charities does around the world in general. I have nothing against you personally, but I am just so tired of seeing the catholic church attacked. yes there have been problems in the church, but there have been problems in every church. the episcopal church was recently ripped in half over the ordination of women priests, homosexual priests, etc. you barely heard a peep out of the media or Beliefnet on this matter. again there recently was a southern protestant church that was stealing money from its faithful church goers, and spending this money on million dollar homes and expensive luxary cars. again barely anything from the media and absolutely nothing from Beliefnet world religion news on this matter. the media loves to use the Pope and the catholic church as its punching bag any chance it gets. and Planned Parenthood has legal action pending against them in many states right now for having uncertified doctors perform abortions in their clinics, did you hear about that one in the media, or on Beliefnet? they are also working their way into schools sometimes into junior high schools and preaching that babys are smelly little crying creatures that you shouldn’t have to deal with. do you think that is something that Jesus would say? also there have been many instances where doctors have told women that their baby was gonna die, or be born and suffer and never be normal, or that they themselves would die on the operating table and it didn’t happen that way. mistakes happen, so murder your unborn child? give your money to an abortion mill rather than feeding the hungry and the homeless? yeah okay if you say so. God created this world and we are all His children, try to remember that.

fof&a, You’ve just torn a very good man apart because of over-reacting on a subject you feel very strongly about. We all do that one time or another if not in print in our minds. Nnmns never makes me feel hate coming from him, I’m Christian, too. He is a professional man who shows great logic, he doesn’t hate anyone including God. How do I know, I’m very intuitive. To call Planned Parenthood an abortion mill is off the wall, that shows hate. To say doctors are not certified Drs. is also gossip. One doctor was called to help because of special circumstances, he was a certified doctor, as you put it. Nobody in their right mind would call a little baby smelly, that’s just no class talk. You’re so right we’re all Gods children in this Universe and we should all try to be in unity even if we don’t agree with each other.

Henrietta, thanks. I appreciate that.
fos&a, I’m not full of hate, you just feel better thinking that because then maybe you can pretend I’m not making good points.
We’ve seen several articles about other denominations and homosexuality and female clergy. Perhaps you weren’t paying attention. I don’t recall anything about the southern protestant church you mention but it may have been on. I get less exercised about misusing the faithfuls’ money than about abusing their children because I figure if you give someone your money you owe it to yourself to think about what will be done with it. When I give Planned Parenthood money I’m confident most of it will be used for girls’ and women’s health. And I think Planned Parenthood has a lot of important things to tell junior high girls. One would be that babies aren’t fun things to have at their age.
There is no god, we evolved and have only each other to help us. Try to remember that.

Wecome back, Henrietta! I had missed you but hoped that you had just been busy.
fos&a:
First, let me 2nd Henrietta’s backing of nnmns. He has never, IMO, shown hate on these posts.
As to Planned Parenthood…where did you get all that information about them telling junior high kids that babies are smelly, little crying creatures (and sometimes they are), but then they have said (according to you)”that you shouldn’t have to deal with???” Me thinks you are using your imagination. I somehow don’t think they would say that.
BTW, what is wrong with them “working their way into junior high schools?” They are a great resource for information for sex ed., birth control, women’s problems etc. You don’t want children to be informed about sex? Don’t count on the parents for information. OH, and PP isn’t an “abortion mill.”
It is a doctor’s job to tell women what they think could be wrong. It is up to the women to make up their minds after hearing the options. Doctors do make mistakes as we all do. And they are right also, as we all are sometimes.
Yes, we have heard of a couple of cases brought against Planned Parenthood on B’net. And we also had articles on the churches dealing with women priests, and homosexuality. You must have missed those. We’ve had articles about the rich evangelicals living off the donations to them, big time. B’net covers a lot of that, not just the RCC.
Obviously you don’t have to have anything to do with Planned Parenthood. This is a free country and they provide many much needed services to women.

Pagansister,
You speak as if abortion is only the woman’s choice, too. That’s quite often not the reality of it. I’m not just a man, I’m a married man, and a somewhat poor one at that. If my wife had an unexpected pregnancy, you bet I’d be involved in the choice too. Men are not immune from facing the choice.
I don’t think Christians should kill. I don’t think Christians should be soldiers fighting for their country. I think the pro-life movement is far more than just being against abortion (the Pope thinks so, too). I’ve harped on that point in pretty much every abortion discussion I’ve posted in on this site.
Yes, I have the right to try to stop a woman from having an abortion, just like I have a right to try to stop a woman from buying a bad entree at a restaurant. As long as I’m not harrassing of assaulting anyone, I have the right to express my opinions and try to influence people’s decisions, just as everyone else does. How dare you try to deny me that right?
And about the non-pro-lifers and morality, my question is this: if you don’t believe there’s anything wrong with having an abortion, how could it possibly be a morally difficult decision whether or not to have one? That doesn’t even make sense.

ps, thank you, too.
As far as stinky babies, I don’t know what anyone from PP has told any kids but if they were told babies are unpleasant to live with as a means of discouraging pregnancy at a young age that would make sense to me. Later when they are at a reasonable age to get pregnant they will be able to balance the unpleasantness of babies with their delights. In the meantime if it’s helped some good decisions be made that’s fine with me.

Nate, what are your efforts toward discouraging people from becoming soldiers?
The “pro-life” movement, as far as I’ve seen it in operation is indeed the anti-abortion movement and whatever the Pope may claim to think, his reps obsess on abortion and ignore our wars including our very unnecessary war in Iraq.
And if your idea of personhood is out of holy books, stale holy books then you have a lot to learn. Spend some time in the real world before you try to counsel anyone, please.
And finally, whether or not abortion is legal it will be done and the best way to cut it down is real sex education and wide availability of contraception.

nnmns,
Wrong about the Pope and the war in Iraq. The Pope has spoken out about the Iraq war from the start. He continues to speak out against the Iraq war to this day. Where have you been? Just because Beliefnet doesn’t have a story on it in its news section, doesn’t mean that it didn’t happen. Ignoring is a very false word to use here.
The rest I’ll let Nate W address, but I think he’s got you on this one!
Cheers!

nnmns,
My efforts discouraging people from becoming soldiers are pretty much the same as my efforts discouraging people from having abortions: I tell people, “You should think twice before you run off and fight in an unjust war,” and then I give them my reasons, and then I go try to vote for politicians who are going to minimize war.
I myself am part of the pro-life movement, and nearly everyone I knew growing up was pro-life. While many of my allies are unfortunately misguided about the war, a sizeable portion of the ones I know are no fans of the war. Heck, there are even a few full-fledged pacifists among them.
And I don’t much care about your asinine opinion of my holy book. My guess is that anyone who would come to me to be counselled wouldn’t care much about it either. Excuse us for not believing that the “real world” is the exact same as you think it is.
And this discussion wasn’t about politics. Why are you bringing up politics? Can’t you stay on topic?

| said: “The Pope has spoken out about the Iraq war from the start.”
| I never said otherwise. I said his representatives here obsess on abortion and ignore our wars, and I’m right. Please read before you post.
Nate, I take it you and I will both be voting for Democrats this year since they will certainly minimize war compared to McCain who, on Iraq, seems to be a Bush on steroids and wants to bomb Iran and compared to Republican congressmen and senators who just fall in line.
And in the real world women and families sometimes need abortions and they don’t profit from being told theories about what aged books written for obscure reasons by unknown authors might mean.

nnmns,
No, I won’t be voting Democrat, because the Democratic candidates aren’t committed to a consistent life ethic like I seek. I won’t be voting Republican, either. If I vote at all, I’ll seek out a good third-party candidate, or else write in Ron Paul.
And in the real world, some women and families believe what that book says and try to conform their lives to it. Those people do profit my theories, and it’s those people for whom I do my work, not people like you.

nnmns:
I understand your point about hoping that the possible statement(stinky babies) by PP might stop a young pregnancy.
NateW:
Yes, some men might have a say in whether a woman aborts or not, but untimately the decision is the woman’s. It is her body. If the man (presumably the father) is around, he can have a say. In fact, some men might want a woman to have one and she would be against it. So, as I said, it is untimately the woman’s decision.
What is your definiation of “moral”. You still think that a woman who is pro-life and chooses to have an abortion, can’t be moral. An abortion isn’t immoral. The decision to have one is as agonizingly hard one…what does morality have to do with it?
You say that you have the right to try and stop a woman from having an abortion…but your right to do that stops where her’s begins. She has the right to do whatever she wants with her body. (whether you agree or not). There have been and always will be abortions. Women deserve to continue to get them safely.

Ron Paul would be the best pro-life place to put your vote. His foreign policy ideas make sense too.

| said: “The Pope has spoken out about the Iraq war from the start.”
nnmns said: | I never said otherwise. I said his representatives here obsess on abortion and ignore our wars, and I’m right. Please read before you post.
I read just fine. The Pope and his representatives have spoken plenty against the war in Iraq. Thus, they are NOT IGNORING the US’s wars. To ignore, means to not be mentioning it at all or refuse to acknowledge. They have mentioned it plenty and have most certainly acknowledged that it was a callous mistake. Go read the reams of press releases on this. Thus, you, nnmns, are wrong.
Please know what you are talking about before you post.

| show us some documentation where the US bishops have said a tenth as much about the Iraq war as they have about abortion. No, make that one hundredth.
URLS, give us URLS to back up your claims.
Wrong is certainly possible but I don’t think so on this one. But some things I’ve said have apparently struck too close to home for you, |.

Or cardinals. Show us some URLs where US cardinals are attacking the Iraq invasion.

nnmns said: show us some documentation where the US bishops have said a tenth as much about the Iraq war as they have about abortion. No, make that one hundredth.
Ahh, you’ve changed/backed away from your original statement. Previously you said that the US bishops have IGNORED the war in Iraq. This is tantamount to saying that they have said NOTHING. That is false.
Now you want to try to place on equal footing what they have said on abortion with speaking out on the Iraq war. Since you base your whole life around logic, you know as well as I know, that simply is an illogical train of thought. You’re grasping at straws.
Nope, actually you really didn’t strike that close to home for me actually. I was merely pointing out that you were wrong on your original statement. I would rather venture to say that you attempting to change this into a political debate with Nate W and grasping at straw men with me seems like your original positions here are slowly eroding.
I honestly don’t need to give you anything in terms of URLs. Go out there on the Internet, and read how the RCC hierarchy has spoken out against the Iraq war. It is all there. Just because you don’t read about it on Beliefnet News doesn’t mean it didn’t happen! There ARE other news sources out there!

| I’m well aware of other news sources. I’d say talking about abortion as murder repeatedly while making available a press release (your claim) chiding (my guess; a bishop or cardinal attacking the war would make news and be a good thing) some aspect of the invasion is for practical purposes ignoring the Iraq issue.
You made the claim, it’s up to you to support it. Apparently you follow bishops’ press releases and should know where to find them. I don’t. But I do follow the news and I don’t remember any significant or lasting effort by even one bishop or cardinal to oppose or stop this war. If you can provide an instance of such I’ll acknowledge it.
But unless you come up with URLs data that support your claim I’m not going to wrestle in the mud with you here. So just find some. Maybe then I’ll have to acknowledge I misjudged the US hierarchy.
Don’t you have a screen name to use consistently so we’ll know you when we see you and can judge the value of your comments on a continuing basis?

URLS that support your claim, not “URLS data”

Nate W,
“so if you intend to change my basic religious beliefs”
I doubt anyone on the pro-choice side has any delusions about changing YOUR beliefs. What we’re saying is, if you are free to hve YOUR beliefs, we must be free to have OURS.

“You speak as if abortion is only the woman’s choice, too.”
Not at all. Many pro-choicers counsel and/or choose adoption after full term delivery. YOUR take is to not offer the woman ANY CHOICE AT ALL.
“I think the pro-life movement is far more than just being against abortion”
The pro-death penalty advocates are often one and the same as the “pro-life” folk. Why that?
“Yes, I have the right to try to stop a woman from having an abortion, just like I have a right to try to stop a woman from buying a bad entree at a restaurant.”
You have NIETHER “right”. MYOB, as Ann Landers would say.

Anonymous poster(s),
You don’t seem to grasp what the discussion is about here. All I’m saying is that for those of us who believe that abortion is murder, we can’t simply be content with not having abortions ourselves. That would turn us into walking moral contradictions. We’d be like a citizen of Hitler’s Germany who thinks the Holocaust is evil but has no problem with it as long as he’s not the one doing the killing. That simply makes no moral sense.
I’m not denying you the right to form your own beliefs. What I’m saying is that my own beliefs demand that I try to persuade you to form beliefs according to which you won’t want to have an abortion.
Why are many pro-life advocates also pro-death penalty advocates? Because they’ve compromised part of their religious faith and bought into the idea that retributive justice is somehow the best representative of God’s justice, I don’t know. What matters is that pro-life philosophies don’t necessarily entail pro-execution policies. Heck, for the largest pro-life group in the world, the Catholic Church, the pro-life position usually entails resisting the death penalty as well.
And yes, I do have a right to talk to other people and try to influence their decisions. It’s called freedom of speech. As long as I’m harrassing them, I can tell them pretty much anything I want to tell them.

“As long as I’m harrassing them, I can tell them pretty much anything I want to tell them.”
I trust you mean as long as you’re NOT harassing them.
And yes, you have a lot of freedom to talk to people and they have freedom to talk to and about you. And if you get in their face I wouldn’t blame them for getting physical.
But as a country we’ll get along a lot better if we give each other some space. And we are in a war and global warming is real and likely our biggest problem and our budget is way out of balance and we’re spending maybe a trillion dollars a year on a military that’s far bigger than it needs to be and which some presidents are inclined to use to get us into even more trouble.
So given all that and that even the RCC can’t agree with itself from one century to the next about how serious abortion is and that no matter what you do there will still be a lot of abortions, given all that isn’t this obsessing on abortion frivolous?
Yes, this obsessing on abortion at this time is frivolous. There are much more important things to work at.

We all have freedom of speech in this country, as long as we don’t harrass each other. Harrassment is against the law.