I think Americans can see through this "over the backfence" gossip of Republicans, and super-religious conservatives. At least young America can. Obama and Hillary have good ideas, plans for our countries problems. Obama isn't running for a job as religious leader, let's let the Ministers and all manner of such do that, instead pay attention to how our America is going to come back to its' rightful place in this world again. We aren't a Theocracy, we are a Republic, The United States of America!

Posted by: Henrietta22 | March 27, 2008 7:21 PM

"We aren't a Theocracy, we are a Republic, The United States of America!"

Technically a theocracy can be a republic...Iran, for example, is a republic and a theocracy. "Republic" simply implies the lack of a monarch. I think what you mean to say is that we're a DEMOCRACY, which is not necessarily a republic, as in the case of the U.K.

...I'm sorry, that's just kind of a pet peeve of mine. :-)

Anyway, this issue is not quite as pointless as you all seem to think, because keep in mind what this article, specifically, is about---Obama's supporters AMONG THE RELIGIOUS. Obama was actually doing very well (for a Democrat) among conservative and traditionalist voters, because, while he is arguably the very least conservative candidate, his charisma and apparent sympathy to people of other views made him look good. But I think it's safe to say that the Wright thing will hurt him among these voters. It's true, DEMOCRATS don't care about this; and those are the majority of Obama's supporters, obviously. But Republicans, keep in mind, usually take what their clergymen say seriously, and will take what Obama's said in the same way. I predict that much of Obama's support among conservatives will leave and not come back, and while that won't matter immediately (against Hillary), if he gets the nomination, it will at least cost him some strength.

God bless.

Posted by: Joey | March 27, 2008 10:45 PM

Kaffinator-
Well, I as a Christian with a functioning moral sense may indeed vote for Sen Obama. I would prefer Sen Clinton...however, if Sen Obama heads the Dem ticket....I will gladly vote for him.

Joey-
I agree with you that the whole situation with Rev Wright will hurt Sen Obama with some voters. However, I think it will not only be Repubs...but, Dems and Indies too.

pagansister-
I agree many voters have short memories.

nnmns-
I too am tired of this subject...but, until Hannity and O'Reilly come up with something new...or, at least stop ranting on this....me thinks it will continue to cycle through again and again.

Peace!

Posted by: JohnQ | March 28, 2008 7:18 AM

nnmns:"I expect some realize there are a lot of issues, many more important than abortion and many realize the right to an abortion is a very positive and important right."

A LARGE Amen to that, nnmns!

Kaffinatior:
As you can see, I agree that the right for a woman to have a safe, legal abortion is one that should never be eliminated. Doing so would only stick us, the United States, back to the wire coat hanger days and unsafe, dirty practioners performing them. Why would that be better than a clean, safe abortion, for those women who for personal (no one else's business)reasons need to have one? We already have a Supreme Court who, because of "W", has tried in dig away at women's rights for this procedure. Like any other private concern, the government has no business trying to control women's reproductive choices. BTW, women of all races have the right to an abortion, so how is that racially disproportionate?

Posted by: pagansister | March 28, 2008 9:56 AM

Confessoressa: Who is forcing the black women to have the abortions? That is their choice. Obviously I can't speak for them, but there must be reasons why what you say is true.

Posted by: pagansister | March 28, 2008 11:38 AM

ecl, good to see you here. And where has our friend Windbender been all this time?

Posted by: nnmns | March 28, 2008 12:51 PM

Well, I think that Nnmns and some of the others here have to realize, this issue is still very important to some people; O'Reilly and Hannity aren't talking to themselves. Actually I've thought of this whole Rev. Wright thing as a very interesting study in the differences between how conservatives and liberals think about race, religion and even family. If nothing else, this story is notable as one of the most telling examples of the "Culture Wars."

But yeah, though I think this is a very important story, it does begin to become tiresome when it just becomes people ranting at each other. But some articles and blogs that have managed to go beyond that still remain intruiging.

God bless.

Posted by: Joey | March 28, 2008 3:34 PM

Chicagowhtlady841 thank you for an enlightening post that should help those who read it and apparently have little knowledge of "race relations" in the US in the middle part of the last century have a better understanding of where Rev. White is coming from. And thank you for pointing out many of his accomplishments. If I had to choose my child being influenced by him or by the likes of Pat Robertson, those "likes" apparently in many churches around the US, I'd choose Wright in a heartbeat. (Of course my real choice would be none of the above.)

Cosmo, I hope you support real sex education and availability of contraception as needed.

As far as your terrorism comments, they don't hang together. First, where do you get "over 100"? It may be right but I wonder who's listing them or is it a typical Bush administration baseless claim?

Second, what does Homeland Security, which is important and we must hope it's being done well, have to do with the senseless and counterproductive Iraq invasion and the inept occupation under Republican leadership these last six years? I'm doubting you can make a connection there but I await your attempt.

Posted by: nnmns | March 28, 2008 4:28 PM

BTW,Kaffinator,where do you get 4,000 abortions a day?? Is that in the U.S. or world wide? Spontaneous or induced? As nnmns said, hope you believe in teaching birth control, and responsibility, but in the event those don't work, abortion should alway be a safe option.

Cosmo, do you really think that just because we haven't had another attack on our soil is because of Homeland security and us, the watchful public? IMO it is just because they haven't tried again yet. 9/11 wasn't a good excuse for Iraq. There is no good excuse for Iraq.

ChicagoWhitelady:
All the awful memories you brought up were just that...awful happenings which should never be forgotten. I remember those events, and the civil rights movement, MLK's death, was in Birmingham during the dogs on marchers episode. All bad stuff. However Wright really should realize the good that came out of the civil rights movement...not that things are perfect in this country now (or any country for that matter) and "whites' are responsible for much of it. However rants of hate towards the country that gives him the right to say those things are counterproductive.

Posted by: pagansister | March 28, 2008 9:24 PM

Kaff, there's a big difference between letting a child die and aborting an embryo or fetus. A child can suffer pain and fear, and likely poor Madeline Neumann suffered a lot of each. An embryo or fetus may or may not be able to even feel pain, depending on how developed it is, but it has little time to feel it and no chance to fear an abortion.

A child typically has friends and loved ones who will miss it and grieve over it while an embryo or fetus does not, possibly excepting the potential mother who decides the abortion is necessary.

A child's parents and perhaps the government have invested in it, there's little or no investment in the fetus except, again, by the potential mother.

And in any case there have always been abortions, lots of them. If they were made illegal the rich would fly off to more enlightened places to get them and the poor would suffer from back alley abortionists like they so often did before Roe v. Wade.

So, given the important issues like global warming and the Iraq war and the battle against terrorism and the economy and the energy situation and the reputation of the US and so on, obsessing about abortion in deciding who to vote for is frivolous.

Posted by: nnmns | March 28, 2008 11:18 PM

nnmns – If you are first anesthetized so that you cannot feel pain, is it OK for me to kill you?

If I verify that few or no people will grieve for you, is it OK for me to kill you?

If I verify that there is insufficient “investment” in you by your parents or government, is it OK for me to kill you?

If other people kill people, is it OK for me to kill you?

If the economy is bad or the "reputation of the US" is suffering, is it OK for me to kill you?

There are those who recognize that every life, even the poor, the sick, the hungry, the racial minority, and the unwanted, is made in the image of God. I guess that makes it a "religious" issue. And that makes Obama unelectable by that "religious" segment.

pagansister – Yes, women died in childbirth...therefore...let's kill babies? Non sequitur.

You say you don’t believe life begins at conception. But, say, two months before the baby is born, it is a medical fact that the fetus is a) human and b) alive. The only real question is whether you will recognize that living humans should have rights, or if you will arbitrarily decide that some don't.

Posted by: Kaffinator | March 29, 2008 2:14 AM

nnmns - The oft-repeated fertility clinic problem is a red herring. It has nothing to do with the morality of infantcide.

I didn't "slip in" any questions for "emotional" value. I merely converted the various rationales you gave for dehumanizing unborn infants and turned them on you. And your response? "No it's not OK." Because people "depend on you".

If I were to show that nobody really depends on you, it would be OK for me to murder you for my personal convenience? You will say, "No it's not OK". That's called a double standard.

Here's the rub of it folks. You think it's OK to label an innocent human life as an unwanted parasite. It really doesn't matter whether you devalue her because of her gender, or her socioeconomic status, or her race, or her beliefs, or her AGE. True compassion is grounded first in the dignity of -all- human beings, not just the ones you deem acceptable.

Posted by: Kaffinator | March 29, 2008 11:50 AM

Kaffinator you ignore what you can't answer without giving away the poverty of your position and you twist other people's words to avoid having to answer them.

But whatever you say most people can see an embryo or a fetus is far from a baby or a child in several ways and aborting one is far different than killing a person. An embryo/fetus will feel little or no pain, no fear, no one will grieve over it, other than the potential mother no investment has been made in it and no one depends on it.

And despite your efforts to make us think an embryo or fetus is just a cuddly baby in a cut blanket inside the womb, in fact it is a parasite. In many cases a wanted parasite that will become that cuddly baby, but prior to birth it is that parasite and well before birth, when abortions should occur and Roe v. Wade gives embryos/fetuses less protection, it's very far from being a baby.

And happily most people can see that the woman needs to have the right to an abortion if it's best for her or for her and her family.

You may yammer as you have and will but any who read this can decide for themselves the truth of the matter.

Posted by: nnmns | March 29, 2008 1:14 PM

And yes, obsessing over abortion like you do is frivolous in the worst sense. People who vote based on preventing abortions won't prevent them but may make them more dangerous for many and more expensive for the well to do.

And the anti-abortion candidates in general are pro-needless war candidates, people prone to allowing big companies to do as they please to our air, water and ground, and people who support low taxes on the wealthy at the expense of important government services for everyone.

For instance there's John McCain, whose office and campaign is largely run by lobbyists and has been in bed with them (perhaps literally) for years. John McCain, who ignores the cost of staying in Iraq because he's cast his lot with Bush's occupation and because he mistakes one battle with the actual struggle against terrorism. John McCain, whose "spiritual guide", Rod Parsley, wants us in a war to destroy Islam.

Posted by: nnmns | March 29, 2008 1:43 PM

nnmns - Guess I can say I'm done with this conversation too. As long as people believe that the dignity of a human life depends entirely on what another person thinks of it, we will make no progress, and the killing will continue.

Somebody thought black people had value -- because they are living human beings -- and wanted to give them the right to freedom. Democrats opposed them.

Somebody thought women had value -- because they are living human beings -- and wanted to give them the right to vote. Democrats opposed them.

Today, some people think unborn infants have value -- because they are living human beings -- and want to give them the right to live! Yup, democrats oppose them.

Posted by: Kaffinator | March 29, 2008 1:53 PM

"Somebody thought black people had value -- because they are living human beings -- and wanted to give them the right to freedom. Democrats opposed them."

It's funny how the parties have changed sides. Democrats made life much tougher for the racists that had so influenced the party, so the Republicans recruited them and have done all too well ever since. You may be too young to remember that or you may just conveniently ignore it again.

Posted by: nnmns | March 29, 2008 2:32 PM

nnmns -- I'm not here to stump for McCain or the Republicans. But at least they have it right on this issue. All the arguments you have mustered so far would just as easily serve to defend racism or black slavery. Just because you feel persons of type X are not worth emancipating or defending, doesn't make it so.

pagansister -- so glad that at least, between you and I, we can get past calling children "parasites", egads. I'm glad you at least can start to see the moral offensiveness of a late term abortion. The next step is to recognize that it is not our queasy feelings that make an act wrong but because a real human life is at stake, no matter how you or I feel about it. But I have to warn you that if you go there you will never be able to vote for a Democrat again so tread cautiously.

Posted by: Kaffinator | March 29, 2008 3:45 PM

Kaffinator you just don't get it. Children aren't parasites. Well, maybe sometimes.

Typical definition of parasite: Organism that lives on or within another organism (the host). The relationship benefits the parasite and harms the host.

That describes the biological relationship between an embryo/fetus and its potential mother. The fact a mother who chooses to be pregnant gladly accepts that relationship doesn't change the relationship. But to try to think of an embryo or fetus as a baby or a child is plainly wrong.

A fetus is, however, physically approaching being a baby and I'm quite content in having a high bar for late term abortions as long as earlier term abortions are easily available. Of course anti-abortionists do what they can to make all abortions unavailable and are succeeding all too well.

Posted by: nnmns | March 29, 2008 9:32 PM

Nnmns -- The anti-abortionists are “succeeding all too well” are they? Hmm. Last I checked, Roe v Wade is still uncontested, 1.2+ million unborn children a year are legally murdered, and both democratic front-runners are on record in favor of keeping even partial-birth abortions legal. If this is success in your book I wonder what failure would look like. 3m abortions/year? 5m? All of them?

And, I’m sorry, but it's not lying to confront you with the implications of your own argument. You are the one who advanced the idea that if a living human can’t feel pain then it’s OK to kill them at your own discretion. I simply brought up the case of an anesthetized person, etc., which you ignored.

I maintain that the pro-slavery and your pro-abortion arguments are very similar. It was argued that black people weren’t smart enough to comprehend freedom; you now argue that unborn infants aren’t mentally progressed enough to feel pain. It was argued that black people were simply the property of their slave owners; you describe the unborn as “parasites” on the mothers.

> “But to try to think of an embryo or fetus as a baby or a child is plainly wrong.”

Talk to a pregnant lady sometime about this. Then come back here and tell us what she said, OK?

Posted by: Kaffinator | March 31, 2008 6:08 PM

I seriously doubt that the Obama Campaign is focusing that much of its resources on winning over those zealous evangelical soldiers in Pat Robertson's and Dr. Dobson's Armies of the Lord stationed at the local megachurch Jesus Camp where making war with satan takes precedence over real life lived in carnal real time. Ditto Hillary. The Dems just don't get down like that. We still hold this truth to be self-evident - there will be no religious test of any candidate seeking to hold office in this land where there is religious freedom and not designated state church. Sure, some of the Dems belong to some religious organization, but that organization is not the state church of a religion upon which the USA was founded. It's just their preferred house of worship.

I think most of the Blue runners are taking Mike Pappatano's advice and avoiding such bigoted, socially regressive idiots the way Dark Agers shunned folks diseased with the plague. It's to the point where if Dems and liberals get Jesus Campers' votes, cool and God Bless them. If not, no great loss, since none of the Dems really expected religious right support in the first place. The DNC is never going to go out of its way to cajole and pacify reactionary GOP right winged religio-fascist xenophobes who still advocate the burning of witches, the stoning of whores, and think those six black youths in Jena, LA actually deserved those draconian life sentences for the use of Air Jordan sneakers as a weapon.

That's John McCain who really needs to be worried that NCOs and low rank cavalry from these Falwellian Jesus Camps aren't supporting him. After all, Rovian-trained God's-Own-Pinhead forces have spent the last three election cycles politically aligning the religious right with the great red elephant so as to achieve Armeggedon in the Middle East. Insane McCain is going to need more than a Dumya Bush endorsement and Poppy41's blessings for success to get him even a respectable defeat in November 2008, thanks to the Chimperor's glowing two terms of grand scale feckless stupidity and Presidential tomfoolery.

As far as the Jeremiah Wright flap, only bigots looking for a reason to not support Barak Obama gave that the worst three minutes pared from a sermon that was nearly an hour long any credence. The rest of the politically progressive and liberal world already knew Pastor Jeremiah Wright and all about the UCC. We had known of the UCC service to its local Chicago community. We even knew that Vernon Jordan had called upon Dr. Wright to council and pray with Bill and Hillary after the Monica Lewinski flap. All Dr. Wright's infamous message did was flagrantly point out that peace is inextricably linked to poverty in that way that only JUSTICE can resolve. So, we paid Hillary's little pitch of the kitchen sink little mind. Hillary had lost 13 straight races. Although, we had so hoped that race-baiting in church was beneath even her team.

We also knew that Murdoch employed halfwit Hannity. And we diregarded Hannity's claims that Pastor Wright hated America. After all, let that halfwit Hannity tell it, any doufas not wearing a lead-based American Flag lapel pin painted in roofies by child-slave labor in some dank sweat shop in China is an antichristian traitor who needs to be exiled in hell. The Aussie Rupert Murdoch pays those racist and socially repressive jacka$$es at Fox News generously well to damn any American who has the courage to point out that America has lots of unfinished busienss to which we need to attend where legitimately affirming human equality of ALL her citizens is concerned. The problem is that Barak Obama's detractors all want to claim that America has already overcome racism ENOUGH because this is as far as too many them want America to come over to real justice and peace. But, just like Reverend Wright said, America has a long way to go, and is literally damned until we get there.

Posted by: rage | April 1, 2008 3:17 PM

kaffinator:
Rage is unique in his posts...

Posted by: pagansister | April 1, 2008 7:52 PM