Wright comes from the struggles of being a black man, yes, but he should have also seen the progress that has been made from the civil rights movement etc. I can’t totally accept that his rage and preaching comes from his past experiences. Now I realize this comes from a white woman, in her early 60′s, who lived in Alabama during the civil rights movement and marches and yes, even in Birmingham during the mistreatment of the marchers etc., but I have seen the needed progress. I realize I never experienced what the black people have, but I personally think that Wright’s rage should have calmed down some in the last 10 or so years. He needs to relax. MLKing never spewed the hate that Wright did and does.

Pagansister Jestr explains his understanding of it in tonights other subject of Rev. Wright. This will explain it better so hate isn’t the prime reason for his firey sermon. MLKing was MLKing living in another time and place than Rev. Wright.

I saw this pastor on TV tonight using the words G*D*America from the Pulpit. Shame on him and shame on his congregation for not walking out on that kind of a message. Grow up people! We are all the same! Nothing can change the things that have happen and will happen in life, but God can give us the Peace and the Grace to go on and to finish the work that he has for us here. It is time to come together and to forgive and move forward. If we do the will of God and follow our convictions we will receive a great reward in our eternal life, the life to come. Let go of the hate. It is safe to have faith in each other no matter what color you are. Just try it and you may find yourself feeling better about yourself and your neighbors.
Peace and Love should be preached, not prejudice, hatred and disappointment.

TeeCee,
“I saw this pastor on TV tonight using the words G*D*America from the Pulpit. Shame on him and shame on his congregation for not walking out on that kind of a message.”
“Damn” has a very specific meaning in the Biblical context. Prophets damned Israel again and again for its perfidy to God’s moral teachings.
Some would say the racist and imperialist history of this nation merit a few well-placed damnations.
” It is time to come together and to forgive and move forward.”
Fogiveness is hard to hand out if there’s no admission of wrong-doing, apology, or pledge to do better.
“It is safe to have faith in each other no matter what color you”
Tell that to the guy that was just had his death sentence overturned today by the Supreme Court because they found his original conviction was tainted by racism.
“Peace and Love should be preached, not prejudice, hatred and disappointment.”
Peace and Love mean nothing without Justice.

The purveyors of hatred are those that play that tape over and over, especially if they don’t play several hours more of his sermons to show Rev. Wright in context. If you want to avoid hatred, avoid Faux News like the plague.

Here’s a quote from a NYT op-ed on Wright:
“The big thing for Wright is hope,” said Martin Marty, one of America’s foremost theologians, who has known the Rev. Wright for 35 years and attended many of his services. “You hear ‘hope, hope, hope.’ Lots of ordinary people are there, and they’re there not to blast the whites. They’re there to get hope.”
Professor Marty said that as a white person, he sticks out in the largely black congregation but is always greeted with warmth and hospitality. “It’s not anti-white,” he said. “I don’t know anybody who’s white who walks out of there not feeling affirmed.”

TeeCee wrote, “Grow up people! We are all the same! Nothing can change the things that have happen and will happen in life, but God can give us the Peace and the Grace to go on and to finish the work that he has for us here”
TC,
It is this attitude that I fear the most. To think that nothing will change certainly meets my cynical side. I have to cotinually nurture my optimistic side, but it is there that I greet and bless those times when things – when people – do change. God is not only with us in the day to day, glacial movement of life. God is there in the remarkable moments, when people suddenly understand and mature just a little bit more. God calls us to convert every day, to turn with God in a new, untried direction. Allow yourself to change and do not be satisfied with the way things are and there is nothing that can be done to change them. Peace and grace fade quickly as things remain constant – even if they are constantly good. It is in the dynamics of life that we are more fully in partnership with God. Go be dynamic!

Oops, I wrote the above anonymous response to TeeCee. Sorry about that.
Pagansister,
My hope is that Senators Clinton and Obama do no so chew on each other that they become opponents. I actually think either of them would be excellent candidates, and will support whomever wins the nod. I am a bot more convinced that Obama is slightly more able to do the job in a new a different way. I have a few concerns about McCain, but I think even he would be an improvement over the last 7 years. Mostly my concerns are regarding to whom he would look for advisors – I hope they would not be some of the same cast of self-invested n’er-do-wells we have now.
I do not and will not make these thoughts known in my capacity as pastor (aside from the IRS threats, I think it is very inappropriate), so it is nice to be able to say these things somewhere.

I have yet to actually hear one of Wright’s sermons, so I can’t comment on his overall message, but I see a church with the slogan “Unashamedly black” as no different than a church that touted itself as “Unashamedly white.” I think we all know how well recieved a church that was proud of being predominantly white would be.
I realize that things like all-black congregations, the United Negro College Fund, affirmative action and so forth are intended to give a disadvantaged people a boost in society and help them harbor a sense of unity, but at best they are a more positive form of racism. Rather than focus on how people of different races are ultimately all the same (skin pigmentation aside), these efforts only emphasize the idea that black people are different and separate from everyone else.

jestrfyl:
I agree that either Clinton or Obama would be capable of running our country and I also hope they don’t become opponents. Am planning to support the one who becomes the official candidate. Both candidates would be making a place in history…either the first black man as president or the first woman as president. This can present a problem as a woman…do I vote for the first woman or do I vote for the first black man? Or should I deal with only qualifications?? Of course after the convention, that decision will be made. As to MCain. I respect the man and his past. But I am not sure I want him to be running the country. You mentioned he would be better than the last 7 years…jestrfyl, I think Mickey Mouse would be better than the last 7 years!
I respect your decision not to make your thoughts known to your congregation because you think it is inappropriate. Good that there is B’net so you can express them.
Blessed Be

I think Clinton and Obama are much too intelligent to let politics diminish their characters. I’d feel safe with either one of them as President in this time of history. They love their country and what it has stood for in the world. I think McCain is a good man but he somehow fits into the past and not into the future. I voted for Clinton in our primary, but since have found myself going more to Barack. I like his ability to stay even-tempered, his ability to look at all sides of a problem, his dignity under fire, his love of God, his plans for a more united U.S., his ability to speak for himself, his confidence. In short he makes me feel confident in our future for our country.

“Wright comes from the struggles of being a black man, yes, but he should have also seen the progress that has been made from the civil rights movement etc.”
What progress?!
We have Jena, Katrina, the greatest infant mortality rate in the civilized world at this time, the highest rate of under-employment and unemployemnt, and more poverty, homelessness, and hopelessness than even some immigrant demographics. African Americans are officially worse off now than we were in the late 50s. Here we are in the new millenium and Brown versus the Board of Education has been OVERTURNED for all intents and purposes, so Dumya can leave every child behind. There are more black men in jail than in the military or college. And, it’s BY DESIGN whether white America cares to acknowledge that reality or not.
Face it, if European Americans faced our fate and challenges daily, they would have reacted worse than Pastor Jeremiah Wright. Whites aren’t racially profiled in every facet of American life. Whites are not scrutinized or as harshly judged by our society as nonwhites. Yet, any time African Americans bring that up, European Americans get their drawers in a wad of social discomfort, and smack down the politcal correctitude card.
African Americans offically no longer care whom the truth offends. We hurt and don’t all feel blessed to be Americans. And, it not very likely that we are all going to wave flags, wear lapel pins, and join a rabid pack of supra-patrotic hypocrites living in some surreal utopia for a chorus of America the Beautiful. We DEMAND justice and vendication so that we too can finally know peace and freedom.

“Prophets damned Israel again and again for its perfidy to God’s moral teachings.”
I would contest this point. The Hebrew prophets say “God WILL damn us;” Wright is saying “God, PLEASE damn us.” His statement was saying that, instead of asking God to bless America, despite its sins, people should be asking for God’s curses, and hoping that it comes.
My brother (an Obama supporter) asked me yesterday why it was that it was okay for Falwell to make comments he made about 9/11, but not Wright. (For that matter, I can switch that around and ask that to everyone here.) The answer is, as insulting and gauche as Falwell was, he was just stating what to him seemed a point of fact—that God was cursing America for its sins. Wright is going beyond that—he’s not just saying that America is being cursed for its sins (that horrible racism that allows members of his congregations to make four times the amount of money my entire family gets), but that _people should be happy for that, and hoping for more._ There’s only other one clergyman I can think of who does that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps.
God bless you all, and America too.

Joey you must have a great time with your brother when you visit and try to talk politics.

I am extremely grateful to live in a country where I am free. As a young, black, professional woman, I am grateful to be in a place where I am entitled by law to the same advantages as my European brothers and sisters. HOWEVER, truth be told, Pastor Wright’s comments were’nt that far off target.
What I would like to see, however, is Pastor Wright offer a solution to the black community that unifies us as a focused people on the issues that will equalize us with our European brothers and sisters. Really, all the good Pastor did in 2003 was “stir the pot from the bottom”. But the real problem is US!!!! As African-Americans, we are our worst enemy! If we are homeless, impovished, without employment, and so forth in 2008, five years after the Pastor’s message was delivered, nine chances out of 10, it is because this is the road that’s been chosen. We can’t continue to blame every negative on white people. We can’t continue to throw rocks as whites who have had the intestinal fortitude to do something to better themselves. My goodness, we need to find out how WE, as Aftrican-Americans, can enjoy the same benefits without re-creating the wheel. You see, I know what it’s like to be hungry, jobless, and impovished. This is why I chose to become educated, skilled, and resourceful. And you know how? Using Pell Grants, scholarships, etc., all equally offered for those wanting an education. As far as jobs, you take what you can legally get until you can do better. No, it is hard trying to live on $6 or $8 an hour. That’s why you get two jobs if you must. But you never let the system make you into a cripple – spiritually or mentally.
Anyway, as for the presidency, the truth is regardless of who becomes president – it is God in the end who will restore this country after so many years of BAD, BAD leadership. It is God, regardless of race or sex, that will BLESS AMERICA!!! Peace!

Thank you so much, diamond, for your viewpoint. To be honest, I have often wondered (as a white woman)why some Black American’s continue to blame White Americans for all their problems. Do I think that racism is gone? Unfortunately no. The excuse that they were mistreated over 200 years ago etc. has nothing to do with now. In the 1960′s things fortunately began to change, due to the hard work of the civil right’s movers and shakers. I lived in the deep south during those times. I know how things were before the civil right’s movement, and I have seen the changes. Are things perfect now? But I agree with you that people have to help themselves.
You’re proof of what can happen when someone decides to help themself.

Posted by: diamond – What I would like to see, however, is Pastor Wright offer a solution to the black community that unifies us as a focused people on the issues that will equalize us with our European brothers and sisters. Really, all the good Pastor did in 2003 was “stir the pot from the bottom”.
The real truth is that Rev. Jeremiah Wright has done more actual work in the black community to help and uplift people than 99% of us. It is sad however that we are so quick to define a man based on the extremely limited and politically motivated representation given by the media. It is equally shameful that so many hear someone being critical and call it hate. I call it accountability. Rev. Wright has offered his stirring opinion that America should consider it’s part in creating a hostile environment towards the country. It is naive for us to believe that the America government has done nothing to stir up resentment in the international community. Rev. Wright was not spewing hatred. He was speaking his thoughtful opinion about the reality of the world he lives in – yesterday and today. And whether any of us completely agree or not, we should at least be willing to give him his due. He is much more than his You Tube/CNN caricature.

pagansister wrote “MLKing never spewed the hate that Wright did and does.”
A careful look at history would remind us that Dr. King was not universally applauded for his stance on the Vietnam War or civil rights. We nostalgically hold up the popular, time-improved, image of Dr. King and ask all other black leaders to “relax” and be more like him. But while Dr. King was non-violent he was far from non-threatening. The famous “I have a dream” speech was filled with challenges to America for the “bad check” written to it’s negro citizens. He spoke with great passion, calling to account the failures of America. And he was viewed as such a threat that he was assasinated. With the passage of time, we may find that Rev. Wright’s sermons challenging America – black and white – was an act of courage, not hate. Thankfully the progress that we have made in America is a step up to merely character assasination.

“Anyway, as for the presidency, the truth is regardless of who becomes president – it is God in the end who will restore this country after so many years of BAD, BAD leadership. It is God, regardless of race or sex, that will BLESS AMERICA!!! Peace!”
God has already blessed this squallid cesspool of human sin. America has reached the critical mass of being the nation described in Ezekiel 16:49. We’re not great. We’re not wonderful. We’re just overindulged, and using the Bible to justify our horrible condition of corruption and xenophobic bigotry. We’re a stinch in the nostrils of Holy GOD. If I were God, I’d be pouring bowls of my wrath on this ungrateful nation until finally the American pinheads imploring me to bless them finally got the hint that I’m grieved and insulted by their constant attempts to convince me that their horse manure is actually pure righteousness.
America has never been a Christian nation. America has never been a Godly nation. America was founded in bloodshed over the bones of the Natives from whom occidental colonists stole the land and built with the labor of slaves taken from their homes against their will. We have collectively spent the last four centuries trying to pretty up our wretched, godless past, only to be constantly reminded that we need repent and restore those disadvantaged by our so called progress. This country was founded on bloodlust, greed, and ambition, not giving a damn about anyone, anything, or any god. That, unfortunately, is the real American way.
We’re already blessed. We’re also complacent, selfish, devious, and insatiably covetous. The more we have, the more we feel entitled to have. We are no longer our brothers’ keepers, but the world’s police force utilized for the maintentance of global corporate order for little more than keeping colonial fascist hegemony alive and prosperous for the few at the expense of the many. To us, this great position in the world is God’s will for us, or rather American Manifest Destiny by mandate of Divine Providence. America has rarely used her great wealth and power to breed peace, just the sword. We’ve taken our good fortune for granted, flaunting ourselves before the world we should have been working more ardently to help. Well, pride goes before a fall. And, America is ripe for that fall.
We’re a young nation, ripe for the chastisement wrought only through time, chance, and circumstance. This divisiveness of nationality and ethnicity that so incessantly ravages the fabric of this nation is bound to initiate that great fall. We are fast reaching that critical mass for which the centripetal spin of our national prejudice will no longer be able to sustatin or aptly compensate. There are now voices crying out for justice and vendication that are just too loud for the world to ignore. We’re going to have to sit down and reason together to resolve our overt bigotry before it destroys us.
I pray for repentence, forgiveness, reconcilliation, respect, and national recovery through genuine contrition. Racism is not behind us. It is in our faces daily. And, we need not continue to ignore it. We will confront and resolve this national cancer before America can be a truly blessed and great nation. People, alas, are one single race of men, all equal, all created in the image and to the great glory of one GOD. When America finally sees her way to accepting that reality, then there might be hope for real peace.

“America has never been a Christian nation.” mystery poster
Am glad someone realizes that, as the preception by some is that the USA is a Christian nation.
But it was mostly the Christians that came over here that did horrible things to the native populations as well as the black slaves brought over. The Bible was used as an excuse do what was done…holy books can cause many problems to the “non-believers.” The Bible has been used as an excuse for LOTs of horrible deeds.
If there is/was a GOD then I’d think she/he best get started fixing the things you find so bad wtih this country. Has any of the praying produced results yet? IMO people are the only ones who can and will make changes…not counting on a divine being.
Am I happy with the continued problems caused by the “Christian” in the White House as well as other things? No, that’s why I’ll be voting in the next election to boot the Republicans out of office.

Pagansister wrote, “If there is/was a GOD then I’d think she/he best get started fixing the things you find so bad wtih this country. Has any of the praying produced results yet?”
I firmly believe that God expects us to take care of things. We are stewards as well as sheep. My faith is that God is with me in the struggle (a.k.a. “passion”) and that we are to struggle (“be passionate”) together. God is not going to fix “it”, God expects us to work through “it” and find ourselves in a new and unexpected place (“grace”). Which takes ut to your next thought…
“IMO people are the only ones who can and will make changes…not counting on a divine being.”
I agree. And racism is one of the “its” we need to deal with. I have quoted more than once the song from Avenue Q, “Everyone’s a Little Bit Racist, Sometimes”. Neither the song, nor God, allows this as an excuse. It is an explanation and even a diagnosis. But we need to work through the disease and find a way to either tear it down, climb around, or find a way past it. We can not longer afford to simply re-decorate our racism and expect that to be enough.
Read the pieces about our “Founding Fathers” and discover that the probelms we decry now were the same then. A Christian Nation, no we have not been, except for a few elite. We are a struggling and aspiring nation.
May the darkness of the day not consume you, and I wish for everyone a glorious sunrise (spell it as you would) on Sunday.

“God has already blessed this squallid cesspool of human sin.”
Anonymous, do you do children’s parties?
That rant was the most depressing, pathetic heap of self-loathing I think I’ve ever heard!

We’re a nation under God, everybody’s God, or no God. Anon. it must have felt good to get that all off your chest! I don’t agree with you and I’m sure you wouldn’t agree with me. I agree with jestr and Thelemite. So Happy Easter to all of you!

As I celebrate Spring with it’s promise of new life just starting to show, I think of my friends here on B’net who will be celebrating Easter. I hope that you all have a Glorious Easter.

The real truth is that Rev. Jeremiah Wright has done more actual work in the black community to help and uplift people than 99% of us.
Pastor EL: All I can say is he’s done that for your community. I live in a state where African-Americans, Hispanics, uneducated, and impoverished are at the bottom of the heap financially, intellectually, morally, and unfortunately, spiritually in many, many cases. Until the good Pastor can fix the WHOLE community – USA-wide – he’s only brightening the corner where he is. Don’t get me wrong, he’s to be applauded for his efforts. And you are correct, he is being judged based on a youtube.com experience which does not do him justice. Nevertheless, our country is in trouble so all I’m asking is that he offer workable solutions to all communities in our country so we can benefit from them instead of magnifying the problems which are so obviously apparent. We all know racism exist, truth be told, both ways! So, all I’m saying to everyone is offer solutions instead of intensifying the situation further.

Sorry I posted that without a name. Pastor EL that was from me, Diamond.

The times they are a changing but the Afro-American population has much to catch up on and much damage (by Whites) to repair.
I really don’t agree with Wrights style and I thing it is dated but there is much work to be done in the Afro-American culture/neighborhoods. There is much need for equal opportunities in education, and the job market. To swing the trend of Black males arrest rates it is going to take a whole lot of education and legislation. It has been a practice to get Black youth in the system early so the attitude of our law enforcement officers (including Blacks) have set up a fear that it’s us against them which defeats many young Blacks well before they even have the chance to develop dreams. There is much more I have studied and note even from personal experience. But the thing I know for sure is that separation is not the way to go and to make speeches that are aimed a particular group is just the wrong way to go; we want to make speeches about the issues not people. The Bible puts it this way, “we wrestle not against flesh and blood.”

People may think America was never a Christian nation but that’s just not true. What is true is that some who claimed to be Christians did awful ugly things but what has always been the light of this nation is the Christians who stand for the good of Christ. Christ never told us to harm anyone but always stood against sin. The backbone of this country is Christianity, if that were not so then this country would look just like other countries and there would be no diversity, freedom or power at the level we enjoy.

“The backbone of this country is Christianity, if that were not so then this country would look just like other countries and there would be no diversity, freedom or power at the level we enjoy.”
Words that no doubt sound nice to a lot of Christians but are meaningless. We were lucky to have a lot of resources and to not have been a site of war for a hundred and fifty years, and to have a lot of people come here from all over the world but they weren’t all welcomed in any nice way by Christians or others.
The freedom is nice and it can be argued to what extent Christianity was involved in helping it, but it came slowly for some as you well know and there’ve been Christian nations with little freedom. As for the power, it’s being squandered away. China and others now own our paper, the dollar is no longer mighty in any sense, our army and marines are stretched to breaking, our moral authority was thrown away to torture a few prisoners and make gulags like the Soviet Union was infamous for, where prisoners enter and aren’t heard from again. And this was under a very Christian president.

nnmns,
I agree pretty much with everything you said, except one. I believe your las sentence is missing one thing. that is quotation marks around the word, Christian. Bush has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G that would indicate a life of faith, as indicated by the pursuit of justice, acts of kindness, or humility. He is uncaring, self-centered, arrogance is second only to Darth Cheney and Darth Rove. He made a pretense that fooled people who wanted to be fooled.
As the Who sang, “Won’t get fooled again”

j, I understand why you’d say that but during the ’04 campaign where were the people saying “George W. Bush is not a Christian”. His character was already clear. Some people now want to disclaim him but when it might have mattered they were mighty quiet.
He talks like a Christian, acknowledged Christian leaders support him, and except for a few I still don’t hear Christians saying George W. Bush is not a Christian.
And anyway he was elected by the Christians overwhelmingly; I doubt if any other demographic group, certainly none of any size, voted for him more predominantly than the Christians.
Believe it or not I, like you, would like to think “Christian” meant something positive you could take to the bank but it does not. It includes GWB, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps and on and on and on.

“Believe it or not I, like you, would like to think ‘Christian’ meant something positive you could take to the bank but it does not.”
That is much like the word “American.” It would be nice to claim only kind, honest, freedom-loving folks under that term, but unfortunately racists, child molesters and murderers get to use the title as well.
I can understand why many Christians wouldn’t want the unpleasant-types associated with their name, but to the rest of the world fundamentalists, dominionists & the people at Westboro Baptist Church are still Christians.
It’s a “no true Scotsman” thing.

I don’t think the rest of the world thinks about who is what kind of Christian, as they have the same kinds of mixed up religious people living with them. They care about our policies and how it affects them. Obama on Larry King said he will include the rest of the world in talks about serious matters that affect the whole world. Now that sounds like help is around the corner to me. The Democrats have always been able to meet and accomplish goodwill with other countries, just look at their history.

My comment above was on Thelemites last paragraph.

A fine point, Henrietta22 (although when I said “the rest of the world” I just meant the non-Christian population). I’m a Libertarian myself, but between Republicans & Democrats, I’ve always felt the Democrats were the lesser of two evils (so to speak).

Who is Christian and who is not only He knows the heart of a person. People can say anything and they do; even their actions cannot truly be a measuring of who they are. I personally believe Bush is not a follower of Christ but the fact remains we are going broke because of Bush.
Now as we look at why we are going broke and its relationed with the US as a Christian nation we must consider that we are now the most divided we have ever been even counting the civil war. Weakness is born of division, I suspect that this is a byproduct of liberalism.

“I suspect that this is a byproduct of liberalism.”
I’d like to think that’s a joke but I think I know you too well for that. You point out, correctly, that we’re going broke under Bush, a very conservative person. You even say you doubt Bush is “a follower of Christ”, a bad thing to you. If we were all conservatives we’d follow him in lockstep like the Republicans in congress almost all do. Be grateful we are not all conservatives.
Oh, and conservatives, while not all bigots, tend to be in league with them to the detriment of blacks as well as homosexuals, etc.

That’s not true nnmns certainly not an absolute. To place “blacks” (lower case noted) and homosexuals in the same sentence shows a great deal of inconsideration, ignorance and bigotry. Many people that are considered conservative are bigots but not because they oppose homosexuality. Conservatism is not a bad thing as a matter of fact to conserve is a good thing. Many byproducts of humans are bad, some subtle (often the worst) and some not so subtle (very identifiable). There are liberal bigot and conservative bigot the liberal being much more stealth and selective.
It’s not so funny that liberal bigots would continue to use Black folk for their agendas like blending them with homosexuality to promote a sexual preference and then call themselves sensitive. Yeah sensitive bullies is more like it, to minimize Black history and culture so that they can justify same sex activity.
They don’t compare same sex activity to Native American or Jewish people or Arabs but blend them in with the Black experience as easy as there was no difference, as if there is still ownership still their slaves to do with or say aboout them whatever they like. Nice one nnmns have no right. I’ve love to see you just go around saying that to Blacks face to face and really let them see what you think about them, oh but I forgot how liberals operate.

I apologize about the lower case. No I don’t. Go to the article titled “Black people” in Wikipedia and you’ll find lower case. And since both are biologically determined why would “black” be capitalized and “homosexual” not be. We capitalize countries and religions for whatever reason. Call me “white” and I won’t gripe about the case. I acknowledge we capitalize Native American, probably because of the continent in the name and Arab, probably because of Arabia. I’ll capitalize African American for the same reason. But if you want me to capitalize “black” then you capitalize “homosexual”.
As far as conservatives conserving, they only do that when it’s convenient. I used to be one of those conserving conservatives (AUH2O in ’64) but the modern conservative does anything necessary to serve greed and superstition, one or both.
And I’ve rarely if ever been called “sensitive” so don’t expect me to bow to your convenient sensibilities. I try pretty hard not to be a bigot. And it’s because blacks and homosexuals both suffer from bigotry and I thought of you that I mentioned them together. I certainly could have included Native Americans and Jews.

Statements like your nnmns and your general attitude about the African American experience give fuel to Wright’s position and helps to let Black America know that the deep prejudice is still seeded in some White folk insomuch as they feel privilege and entittlied to define our existence and equate our very existence with a sexual behavior or preference. Yeah I can see it is still neccessary to fight racism on all fronts. Thanks for reminding me of the subtle racism that plays such a powerful part in harming our heritage as a people. Thanks for helping to change my view of Wright. I’d love to see you try to tell him face to face being an African American is the same as homosexuality.

“Thanks for reminding me of the subtle racism that plays such a powerful part in harming our heritage as a people. Thanks for helping to change my view of Wright. I’d love to see you try to tell him face to face being an African American is the same as homosexuality.”
If you didn’t see Wright is right about some things before now I wonder where you’ve been. And of course I didn’t say being African American is the same as being homosexual, I said they are both biologically determined. But the impression I get of Wright is that he’s probably not obsessed about homosexuality like you are. If it makes you feel any better, being white and being heterosexual are also biologically determined so I just made the same statement about me (twice) as I did about blacks. Feel better now?

You have no proof homosexuality is biologically determined that’s a guess that no one can prove. You cannot determine the sexual nature/preference of a human by biologically but you can tell the race of a using many factors even if it is a skeleton. You base your bigotry on myth not facts.
I’ve always known that some of what Wright preaches is on the money I just object to inciting without direction or specific target.
As long as you insist on marginalizing my heritage at the expense of your homosexual agenda I will never feel better about you nnmns, so no I don’t feel better now, but I will keep you in my prayers. The subtle racist bigotry practiced by some liberals like you will no more bring change then the open racial bigotry practiced by some conservatives.

“That rant was the most depressing, pathetic heap of self-loathing I think I’ve ever heard!” Thelemite
You need to attend a few less kiddie parties and live in reality more. Obviously, hearing the truth about reality in AmeriKKKa harshes your state of euphoria. Wake the hell up.

cknuck, I’ve noticed you call people out for making comparisons to African Americans or Hitler or the Jews in the past, but I think you really need to relax and remember what an analogy is. If I were to say a person was drawn to something like a moth to a flame, that doesn’t mean I’m saying they sprouted wings and dove into a blazing fire.
When nnmns (or anyone, for that matter) compares the plight of homosexuals to the past injustices done to African Americans, that doesn’t mean they experienced the same thing or that their suffering was exactly equal; it just means there are similarities. For instance, in the past some churches didn’t allow African Americans to enter; today, some churches don’t want homosexuals to be members of the congregation. In both cases, the discrimination was based on elements of who the individuals were that they couldn’t control. Now, obviously no one is turning fire hoses or police dogs on members of the gay community, so the two scenarios are not identical, but to deny that there are no similarities at all is foolishness.

“The subtle racist bigotry practiced by some liberals like you will no more bring change then the open racial bigotry practiced by some conservatives.”
Sorry if I don’t do tippy-toeing. I’d love to see change come and bring the time when we think no more about the race or sexual preference of a person than we do of their hair color.
I have no “homosexual agenda” other than regretting that, like African Americans, Native Americans, Jews, atheists and some others they are often victims of bigotry. And I donate a little money to an organization that fights such bigotry and I vote for people who are more likely to oppose it. So my “homosexual agenda” is a lot like my “African American agenda” and my “Jewish agenda”, etc.

Correction to my 12:02pm post – that last sentance should read “but to say that there are no similarities at all is foolishness.”
Gotta watch those double negatives…

“curiouser and curiouser”
This quote from Alice in Wonderland (or is it “Through the Looking Glass”) seems to sum up this latest political sand storm. Apparently the most inflamatory passages of Wright’s sermons were collected and released by the staff of McCain’s campaign strategist. It is seeming like McCain’s staff is not confident that he will be able to run well against Obama. So if you cannot find anything on the candidate, find something on someone near him. Of course, in the absence of news, the press has to run something, so this controversy is continually stoked by whatever twigs of reaction the press can find. What amazes me is that the editors and publishers have chosen to allow these embers to flame up again and again.
In many ways this portion of the campaign is seeming more like WWE than a rational conversation between candidates and the electorate (something the press could sponsor and promote). Let’s hope there are no folding chairs at the next debate – one candidate may be prompted to try to crack another candidate, or moderator/mediator/referee on the head!

I didn’t realize this stuff came from McCain’s bunch, though it’s not surprising. I don’t think he’d actually run well against any of several Democrats.
I wish the whole sermons were available so one could get a better feeling of what the guy’s like. But as you say, j, if you can’t slander a candidate slander someone close to him. I smell the hand of Carl Rove in this though they might have come up with it without him.

Thelemite simply put, you are wrong. It is minimizing and incorrect it is well known that people can control their sexuality and can go most of their life and not be identified in one category or another concerning sexual preference, but certain races (like mine) have never enjoyed such luxury even if we wanted to and always we have been targets. It is a carry over from slavery and a position of privilege in which folk like you make statements concerning African American and continue to try to herd us as you would will, subject to how you try to define us.
No there is no comparison between sexual orientation and race, and the sooner people like you stop trying to dictate, minimize and define our heritage the sooner these types of speeches will find true uselessness. But if not then don’t be surprised in the direction your assertions take us and this country.

cknuck, you are being sensitive well beyond the point of absurdity. I think I will leave you to your delusions of persecution and take Henrietta’s advice.

cknuck, get over it! Slavery was a very long time ago….and yes, there certainly has been more than unequal treatment of blacks in this country. I’m old enough to remember (having lived in Birmimgham, Alabama) separate water fountains,separate waiting rooms in the bus station, and most certainly different schools etc. That is not the case any more. Are things perfect for folks of color? Of course not, but MUCH better than the past. Obviously I’m speaking as a white woman, but I still don’t know why some blacks continue to blame slavery for all their problems now. Other nationalities, such as the Chinese immigrants,(many brought over to build railroads in the west) Vietnamese immigrants, Japanese, etc. “look different” but I don’t hear of them blaming “whites” for a lack of equality. Perhaps the Hispanic immigrants have problems, I don’t know about that, and they “look different” in some cases. Native Americans have been mistreated, told to live on “reservations”. They too have reason to complain…they were here before all of us. We are all immigrants to this country…some because we wanted to be, some without a choice. Here in this country, there is a chance to succeed if one tries. Obama seems to be the current proof. There are many, many successful black people in this country…they must have decided to get somewhere without blaming the white man for putting them down. Diamond posted on this site (you probably read her posts.) She is an example of a black woman who has succeeded. Folks can’t change their skin color, but they can be proud of it and do their best.

Pagan It’s easy for you from where you are sitting to say “it’s much better than the past,” but with lack of knowledge its easy to make just about any statement you don’t have a clue about. You make a point of pointing out the fact that you use to run with the bigots of the south and you think that qualifies you. What a laugh.

cknuck,FYI, I never “ran with the bigots”! Why would you assume that? I said I remembered the south at that time,not that I agreed with it. I lived in Alabama as an 11 year old until age 24. Did I find the treatment of blacks correct, NO. So your accusations are false, totally incorrect and assumed. I do not accept them.
“What a laugh.” cknuck
Sorry you found my non-acceptance of bigotry as humorous. It wasn’t and isn’t.
As to Wright….he seems to be one you can agree with.

You make a point of pointing out the fact that you use to run with the bigots of the south and you think that qualifies you. What a laugh.
That’s a belittling comment to pagansister. She happened to live there as a young person in Alabama with her family. She saw what was wrong and knows how the black people suffered and she is sorry for that and you can’t even see that. I saw the same in Atlanta and posted stories, and you did the same to me.

As you know, Henrietta, folks see only what they want to see, or in this case, distort things they read to make it fit their beliefs.

Well that’s because I do see racism in both of you H22 you are willing to minimize the whole African American experience into a platform for your homosexual agenda. You can’t see it but continue to do it and you’re just angry because I see you for what you really are. I’ve look at both of your activity when a story about injustice to Blacks come up and it’s ‘yawn yeah that’s too bad ho-hmm.”
But in the same day you are willing to go on and on how the homosexual struggle is just like the African American’s. Yeah that closet racism and then the phony “I have done a lot for Black folk” really stinks, and that’s what I mean about the liberal racism. In truth you could care less about low income at risk Black neighborhoods and have done nothing to change the situation. Part of the problem or part of the solution, part of the problem when you want to reduce our heritage down to a sexual movement.

When racism is a spectator sport then you in Alabama and you in Atlanta are part of the problem not the solution and it forms your character pertaining to racism it remains a spectator sport no more than that.
Don’t pretend; the homosexual marriage struggle is more to your liking, safer for one, but don’t pretend to be a defender of racism and more worse don’t use The African American experience in your fake, safe battle. Just be real.

“part of the problem when you want to reduce our heritage down to a sexual movement.”
Henrietta and ps are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves and I can’t speak for them, only about them but since they may not be here any more I’ll say one more thing then leave.
I cannot imagine either of them not caring about what’s happened and is happening to African Americans. For me and perhaps for them the bigotry against African Americans and against homosexuals is comparable, which in no way means African Americans and homosexuals are the same.
You are, for obvious reasons, sensitive to the one and for whatever reason you take part in the other, which invites the comparison. I hope you’ll think about that before you write about homosexuality in the future.

I hope you think about how in the world as a White person who does nothing but participate in cracker barrel discussions could you ever have an perspective enough on African Americans to say to us that our struggle is the same as the homosexual struggle.
They saw what was done and never did a thing but now have the nerve to think they understand, its a do nothing idealistic attitude which I resent. It’s is racism in a subtle form at least you know where I’m coming from/

cknuck, where in the post I wrote about Alabama did I mention homosexuality? You have certainly used you imagination on that one!
Thanks nnmns and Thelemite, for you comments. It isn’t my problem if cknuck can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s his.

Good gods… years and years later, and cknuck is still beating his dead “don’t dare draw a parallel between gay people and b(B)lack people” horse.
Guess what, folks – there ARE parallels between how Black folks and gay folks have been and still are treated in this country. Are they completely parallel on all points? Nope. Does that mean there are no similarities? nope.
Cknuck has dragged out the tired outrage of gay people “using” the Black experience to make a point.
Is it enough to say “Your outrage is duly noted, and I hereby reject both its validity and therefore my need to not point out the parallel?”
Because there it is. I’m sorry you find such comparisons outrageous. I’m never going to stop drawing those parallels because they exist whether you like it or not.

poor chuck, his ignorance is baffling. Of course there is “proof” that homosexuality is nature not nurture. The autopsies done on Gay men showing their Hypothalmus glands are larger than hetero males, more the size of hetero females, demonstrates the proof. He probably does not know what the Hypothalmus gland is or what its function is in the brain. Also, genetic and hormonal links are to be found in scientific studies. In addition, The same brain hypothalmus gland studies were done on sheep, the male sheep exhibited the same differences between hetero and homo sheep, as compared to the ewes(females.) Do the research, free your minds. Christians once believed the world was flat and the center of the universe, created in 168 hours, which we know is incorrect. I am a Christian and remember Jesus message of love and inclusion. Obama’s wife was ashamed to be an American until Iowa, that is proof they admired and bought into the reverend’s message of racism and bigotry. We pick our Churches, he picked his. My Priest does not blame the Jews for our misfortunes. Time to grow up Mr. Obama. You and your wife make millions, live well, quit whining. Why don’t you enlist in the Army, serve your country like Colin Powell did, and shut up. I could support Colin Powell. Senator Obama, you are no Colin Powell.

Obama picked his Church because he found Jesus Christ there and through Wrights preaching at that time. Try listening to Baracks speeches and what he plans for this country, it’s great! You pulled only part of what Mrs. Obama said in Iowa and it is out of context as well as the Rev. Wright thing. I like Colin Powell but he isn’t Senator Barry Obama. You don’t have to serve in the armed forces to be an upstanding person, you know. History put Obama where he is just as all of us are where we are. Mr. Obama is grown-up and doing well.

Just imagine what you could make the OT prophets say if you filched a phrase from here and there and sound-byted it together for the evening news.