It will be
“The Happy Talk Speech of the Year!”
“Good News for North America!”
Greeting from Rome to America – we love you!
Argh – It would be nice if he actually took his role seriously and said something of actual substance.

Jestrfyl,
If you don’t think that the Pope takes his role seriously and speaks with substance, then that’s pretty good evidence that you’d be incapable of noticing theological substance if it punched you in the face.
Agree or disagree with the man, no one can accuse him of lacking substance and still maintain any respect among the theologically literate, in my opinion.

NateW.
Take my word for it, jestrfyl would notice theological substance if it existed.
Benny16 is going to “touch” on as many subjects as time permits. Wouldn’t be surprised if he somehow hasn’t got time to mention pedophile priests and women’s place in the RCC.

“Benny16 is going to “touch” on as many subjects as time permits. Wouldn’t be surprised if he somehow hasn’t got time to mention pedophile priests and women’s place in the RCC.”
Come on now….Our Holy Father has already addressed the pedophile priests…….how many times does Bene16 need to mention it. It has only gone of for ~2000 years.
As far as women….you know that the Church and the Holy Father hold women in a special regard. After all, Jesus Christ had one for a mother…and, none of the rest of us would be here if it were not for women. They have a special place in the Church. Because of this, they can not hold positions of authority (except over children and other women).
Everyone (except thinking people) know that women are weak and easily tempted….just look at what happened to poor Adam. His first wife was not subservient and his second wife ate from the Tree of Knowledge. How could a gender as unreliable as females hold positions equal to males? After all, everything every male does is correct. Except, for we are all sinners (if we are fundamentalist Christians)….so those incorrect actions on the part of males do not count.
All that said, I have no doubt, that Bene16 will find time to attack those that support marriage equality and rant on his POV of what God wants on the subject of marriage. And, there will be time to mention abortion…for, as we all know…currently the RCC is against abortion always has been (except for when it was not) and always will be (until they aren’t).
So, to recap:
-pedophile priests – already handled
-women – not important
-marriage equality – this will be the downfall of the world unless stopped
-abortions – evil for now
There may be enough time to attack homosexuals also.
Peace!

Believe it or not, the pedophilia problem and the issue of women’s ordination do not exhaust the category of “substance.”
And yes, if jestrfyl doesn’t think that Benedict speaks with substance, then that’s a serious error in his judgment. I don’t know of any serious theological voice out there who accuses the Pope of lacking substance, whether they agree with his substance or not.

Here’s an interesting article on closing Catholic elementary schools around the country and whom they served and how the closings might or might not be related to the abuse settlements.
My impression, which could easily be wrong, was that the RCC didn’t dig into its coffers to keep schools and such going, even when it had bigger coffers.

nnmns-
We have the same impression.
I find that odd. Yes….food, safety, security, housing come first…but, after that what could be more important the educating children?
It seems to me that the most effective long-term strategy for expanding the Catholic faith would be to invest more in the schools…exposing more children to the faith…..and, thus creating more Catholics over time.
Peace!

Nate-
A wonderful Aunt of mine who is Catholic….and, a couple of bnet regulars on other boards here have aided me in finding a new acceptance and respect for the Catholic faith.
I agree with you, Bene16 does often speak with substance. Not the substance I choose to embrace…but, substance. His stance on countless topic is distasteful to me. His actions seem to denote a lack of respect for people of other religions and denominations. I do not gain a sense of sincerity and/or compassion from reading his writings and/or listening to his speeches. Rather, it seems to me that he has honed manipulation into a fine art.
I agree that there many, many other topic of importance to the world and to God beyond pedophilia and women’s equality. However, Bene16 does so poorly in dealing with these…..as well as equality of homosexuals, respect for Jews, Buddhists, and Muslims….that I have little interest in putting much attention on other topics.
IMO, Bene16 is more interested in preserving the past and maintaining control than he is in leading the Church and people in healthy growth and development.
Peace!

As if spreading the word and the love of God and his son Jesus Christ isn’t important? as if spreading the word of the pure power of the Eucharist, Eucharistic Adoration and the power of the Rosary isn’t somehow important? All kinds of churches have problems, but the media just loves to point its finger at the catholic church. A couple of priests that should have never been ordained in the first place, ruined things for alot of truly good and Holy men, and that angers me. meanwhile the Episcopal church was recently almost ripped in half, and a Protestant church was caught stealing money from their fathful churchgoers, the church of the Latter day Saints was in the news this week for some very horrible things, but lets get back to beating up on the Pope and the catholic church as quick as we can. I feel sorry for the media. the Pope is coming for a visit, so lets somehow put a negative spin on this, and later maybe we can bring people some more importanat news like, who is Brittany Spears new boyfriend? what did Paul Mcartney’s ex-wife have to say today? what club was Paris Hilton hanging out in lastnight? I’m glad that the media has it’s prorities straight.

“A couple of priests that should have never been ordained in the first place, ruined things for alot of truly good and Holy men”
A couple of priests? I sympathize with you that things happen in other churches (or, as in Texas, related to other churches) that don’t get as much news. Part of it is likely the nature of the crimes and part that for the RCC they kept turning up. I’d say churches and religion in general are treated a lot better in the press than they deserve and that is likely especially true of the stealing you mentioned and perhaps the Texas abomination. Perhaps in contrast the RCC’s problems got appropriate amounts of publicity.

Sorry about all the bold. My bad. It would be nice if we could preview posts here before they go public. Tiger, Lion are you here?

friendssaints&angels-
If you consider a loss of less than 6% of the membership over the last five years as “ripped in half”…so be it.
I can only speak for myself…but, IMO, as awful as the problem with child molestation by clergy in the RCC was….it is even worse the way the Church hierarchy has continued to systematically cover it up and down play the problem as though it is not a problem. The point is not how many thousands of priests engaged in the molestation….but, that the Church hierarchy as a whole has continued to act as though it has not happened.
Perhaps you have an interest in Brittany, Paris, et al….but, I don’t. That is why I hang out on bnet.
Peace!

I have no interest in most of the garbage that the media tries to shove down our throats on a daily basis. the catholic church actually had gains in membership this year, for the first time in a long time. I didn’t particulary care for the way that the catholic church handled this whole mess, but I think it’s also time to let it go. I think that people seem to forget what Sacred Scripture has to say about forgiveness. if we don’t forgive people for their sins, there will be no forgiveness for us. we live in a generation where people do alot of finger pointing. I think that it somehow makes alot of us feel better, if we forget about our own faults and shortcomings, and point at the mistakes of others. the Pope is coming here to spread the word of God’s mercy, love and forgiveness. at the same time He is coming here to try and tear down walls between faiths, and faith beliefs. I wish that there were alot more people in the world trying to do this instead of complaining about every little thing. the world needs less complaining and alot more praying. leave it to the media to put a negative spin on the Popes visit to America. The Pope is coming here with a message of peace and thats a bad thing?

It will be a good thing if he emphasizes peace, as in getting our troops out of Iraq and not attacking Iran.
And it would be great if his hierarchy in the US emphasized that as much as they do anti-abortion this summer and fall.

FOS&A:
Sacred Scripture may promote forgivness…but it is a little hard to forgive the fact that the children, having been taught by their parents to do so, trusted, in some cases “nasty men in priests clothing”. Just because they wore their collar backwards they were thought to be flawless. What is almost harder to “forgive” is the way the senior priests (archbishops, cardinals etc) overlooked the conduct of the priests, and sent them to yet another parish/church to continue to molest, or sent them to a retreat, then sent them back into a church/parish. I guess the senior dudes gave them a few Hail Mary’s, and Our Father’s and sent them on their way. And the church still seems to not quite believe it, even after paying through the nose to those victims.

Fos&A, The Latter Day Saints, or Mormans were not in the news with terrible happenings. The Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints or FLDS were. You do understand that they are a break off from The Latter Day Saints, don’t you? They have continued with polygamy, and a growing extremism in beliefs of LDS, and have turned themselves into a CULT.

Hey John Q, I noticed that you state that the Pope and catholics attack homosexuals. could you please show me where that exists? stating that abortion and homosexuality are wrong isn’t a catholic thing, it’s a Sacred Scripture thing. Jesus has taught us to love the sinner, but to hate the sin. I don’t hate nobody because of their sexual preferances, but I hate what theyre doing to themselves. if someone I loved got cancer, I wouldn’t stop loving them because of that. I hate the cancer thats killing them, but not them. thou shall not kill is one of the ten commandments, and abortion is murder. read the Old Testament and you will see where it says that a man shall not sleep with another man. those are the words of God himself, not the catholic church. the world has evangelized people into thinking that homosexuality is alright. if you listen to the world, whatever feels good for you is okay, if you listen to the word of God it’s not.

nnmns:
Just read the article on the closing of Catholic schools around the country. The Catholic school I used to teach in has had several more students because of the closing of 2 other Catholic schools in the city. When I retired in 2005 the tuition was $2,500 per year..and that was one of the least expensive Catholic elementary (K-8) schools in the area. High schools are over $10,000 a year.

Here’s an interesting article that suggests Pope Ben’s visit might just be substantial. Let’s cross our fingers.
Raw Story article.

NateW
Speaking at length is not the same as commenting in substance. There are thousands of reams of commentary on everything under the sun that do not necessarily speak to the relaities of human life. If B16 were to speak in something more than either broad (and demeaning) generalities or pointed specificity to Rmoan Catholic concerns then he might stand a chance at being taken more seriously. But he is disrespectful to groups that are not like him, has little use for woman who cannot be set at a distance, absolutely no interest in dealing with sexual issues, and his comments of world problems seems slight.
I never expected much from B16 since he started shwoing his fangs as the alpha Orthodog. That he manipulated the papcy was not even the slightest shock. But I don’t think there will be the outpouring of love and thanks as was seen in the reign of John23 or even jp2.
I hope he has a lovely trip and that he and Bush have plenty to not talk about. But as Tevye says in Fiddler on the Roof, “A Blessing for the Czar – May God bless and keep the czar – far away from us”.

nnmns,
FTFY
Tiger

There is a Tiger! Thank you, Tiger.
Is there a place on B’net where we can go and practice or post things first to see what they’ll look like? A sandbox?

Here’s a new poll of US Catholics* that will make RC backers somewhat happy I’d think.

“we live in a generation where people do alot of finger pointing. I think that it somehow makes alot of us feel better, if we forget about our own faults and shortcomings, and point at the mistakes of others.”
You seem to be doing a lot of finger pointing; in fact, that’s all your doing. Doed it make you feel better?

jestrfyl,
As I said before, you wouldn’t recognize theological substance if it punched you in the face. Just because someone doesn’t spend the bulk of his time addressing YOUR concerns in the way YOU would like him to, that doesn’t mean he lacks substance.
Everyone who knows anything about Catholic theology readily recognizes that, love him or hate him, Ratzinger/Benedict has been one of the most substantial writers of the past century. If you can’t recognize it, then you have absolutely no intellectual credibility, in my book.

“Pedophile priests, Darfur, Iraq, global warming, poverty and a decline in the number of Catholics in the United States are all burning issues Pope Benedict XVI could address during his visit to the United Nations next week, his UN representative said yesterday.
But, said Archbishop Celestino Migliore, time will permit only a few of them to be touched on during the pontiff’s visit on April 18.”
So what’s stopping him from addressing them in any other forum/daily life???
Nate W.
You said (to Jestrfyl, but it touches us all), “If you don’t think that the Pope takes his role seriously and speaks with substance, then that’s pretty good evidence that you’d be incapable of noticing theological substance if it punched you in the face.”
Then I, too, along with the many abused children, those murdered and raped in Darfur, those civilians killed in Iraq, those affected by global warming, and the poor are either “incapable of noticing theological substance” or simply longing for it from such a global “spiritual ‘leader’”. Has Benny said ONE PUBLIC WORD about sanctioning either the child-abusing priests OR the lying bishopps who hide them?
The world has been waiting so long.
“Just because someone doesn’t spend the bulk of his time addressing YOUR concerns”
They are not solely jestrfyl’s concerns. They are the concerns of the world. And as for the “bulk of his time”, how about ANY TIME AT ALL??? Speaking of having “absolutely no intellectual credibility, in my book”.
(BTW, no one needs to get ‘punched in the face’ – but how APT a metaphor! – when simple compassionate, truthful words would suffice.)

FoS&A,
“I noticed that you state that the Pope and catholics attack homosexuals. could you please show me where that exists?”
The RCC calls homosexuals “objectively disordered”. That’s an attack, especially since it isn’t true, and especially considering Who did the ‘ordering’. The RCC continually intervenes in secular and political struggles to PREVENT gay citizens from being treated equally before the law. That, too, is an attack.
Thanx 4 askin’.
“stating that … homosexuality [is] wrong isn’t a catholic thing”
Of course it is.
“it’s a Sacred Scripture thing.”
Not according to the teahcings of my faith. Why do your faith’s tenets trump mine?
“Jesus has taught us to love the sinner
Calliong someone “objectively disordered” and continually attacking someone’s rights is hardly a display of “love”. Why is it that so many people spout the empty “love the sinner” bromide when their actions betray that sentiment???
“but to hate the sin.”
Many (including Catholics) do not see homosexuality nor homosexual relationships AS “sin”. Why is it that the “sinner” is always the one that ends up tied to the fence post and pistol whipped (or fired from his job, or gets denied an apartment, etc.), and not the “sin”???
“I don’t hate nobody because of their sexual preferances, but I hate what theyre doing to themselves. if someone I loved got cancer”
Sorry, but comparing my love, my relationship, my marriage, my very existence in fact, to cancer is proof positive that you not only DO hate us, you are willing to bear false witness about us.
“I wouldn’t stop loving them because of that.”
Please spare us from that kind of “love”. Your “love” is lethal.
“I hate the cancer thats killing them”
Another lie. My love is not “killing” me. Nor my husband. Nor my neighbour.
“read the Old Testament and you will see where it says that a man shall not sleep with another man.”
Actually, it says “lie with” not “sleep with”. And it goes on to say “as with a woman”. Men who lie with women are called heterosexuals, not homosexuals. Homosexual men do not lie with women in any fashion whatsoever. And then, of course, we would need to examine just what it meant to “lie with a women” 2,000 odd years ago for nomadic Levite tribes, wouldn’t we? (Well, we would if we were being honest!)
Not to mention that the OT also says that eating shellfish is an “abomination”, and that we should put disobedient children to death, and that we should deny communion to the disabled. And a myriad of other things that people today (including Catholics, btw) willingly ignore.
“those are the words of God himself”
Actually, they are the words of shepherds, fishers, tax collecors, etc. and they have been translated and re-translated, and interpreted and misinterpreted so often as to hardly be consistent with logic or compassion, let alone with truth.
“the world has evangelized people into thinking that homosexuality is alright.”
OR maybe the world has just seen through the falsehoods perpetuated by organized religion and the continued bearing of false witness by the adherents of said religions.

That seems to be a bunker mentality that you have. what you are suggesting is that Sacred Scripture and the word of God are wrong and that only your opinion matters. I’m glad that those are your words and not mine friend.

“what you are suggesting is that Sacred Scripture and the word of God are wrong and that only your opinion matters”
I’d certainly suggest there are a lot of wrong things in what’s taken to be Sacred Scripture and the word of God; I’d never suggest only my opinion matters. It is, however, pretty important to me.

NateW
Once the discussion is reduced to name calling and implied violence I think it is time to return to the topic of the article. I will grant you that b16 is adept at slicing and dicing theological details with his Roman Catholic Ginsu knife. However, he is not invited to speak on theological or even ecclesiastical issues. He is being asked to speak as a spiritual leader, to speak on spiritual issues for the world, This is b16′s weak spot.

“Everyone who knows anything about Catholic theology readily recognizes that, love him or hate him, Ratzinger/Benedict has been one of the most substantial writers of the past century.”
Well there it is. He’s substantial about Catholic Theology. I realize that’s important to a few people, apparently including you, but it’s irrelevant to most of us. I have to go along with calling him insubstantial (unsubstantial, nonsubstantial?)
If as suggested in one of those articles he takes the opportunity to lay some truth on us about the evils of our invasion and occupation of Iraq and what our fears have caused us to do and may cause us to do, I’ll call that very substantial.

Jestrfyl,
Speaking on spiritual issues isn’t reall his weakspot, unless you just plain disagree with his stances on those issues. For those who are actually faithful to traditional Catholic spirituality, Benedict has been profoundly helpful. If he’s not helpful to liberal Catholics and Protestants, so be it. You’re not his primary audience. I’m sure I’d get very little out of kinds of sermons you’d prefer, but it wouldn’t bother me that much.
nnmns,
Catholic theology is relevant to anyone who is actually Catholic, to anyone who is an ecumenically-minded Christian, and to anyone of any other religion who takes Catholicism seriously. If that’s not important to other people, so what? He’s the leader of the world’s Catholics, not the world’s atheists. At the end of the day, your opinion of what he says isn’t all that important.
It really baffles me that so many people who aren’t Catholic and have no interest in traditional Catholic thought and practice spend so much of their time complaining about what the Pope does. Are your lives really that boring?

I got distracted and called away before I finished my last thought.
Sometimes I wonder just what it is I wish b16 would do with his “bully pulpit”, especially given the opportunity he has at the U.N. I do not think it is reasonable to expect him to address the priestly pedophile issues – that is internal to his organization. But I would like him to address the way people deal with children and how they should be a priority rather than fodder for war, means for exploitation, and the least important concern. I would like him to propose ways his organization can help address not simply issues of poverty and war, but suggesting particular strategies that draw from the strengths of the Roman Catholic size and reach. I would like him to directly condemn acts of war and acts of terror. And perhaps more than anything I would like him to not only accept invitations to discuss the ways people of faith can work together. I would like him to initiate some of these discussions. These are spiritual concerns and neither theological nor ecclesiological. The thing is, once in a while he really does come close to my expectations. And I do not present myself as the standard for acceptable public behavior of religious leaders. But my comments are my own, based on what I would hope to hear or see. The problem I see is that he presumes to speak for all Christians. Or maybe it is imply that outsiders assume he speaks for all Christians. If that is so, I would hope he would try to dispel them of that idea, rather than promoting it (his usual approach).

nnmns,
We had a “sandbox” on the old discussion boards. You might try looking at the New Members Forum in the community area. If there’s not an “html practice” thread, start one.
New Members Welcome
Beliefnet_Tiger
Community Monitor

Tiger, thanks again. I tried that and it says HTML code is Off and I don’t see how to turn it on. I did change my editor version there to advanced and can get those effects, there, but not here. Any chance they’ll let us use the fancy stuff here?

NateW and others of his ilk,
I hope you notice the comments I posted on the Beyond Blue piece about the benefits of Roman Catholicism. These may, in some way, offer a more full undrstanding as towhy I am so pointed about b16. I do know and have experienced the breadth and wealth of the Roman traditions and rituals. I guess I simply have greater expectation of the Pope, who ever it may be, than I see realized in b16 (I guess he is too much a “Medici” for me – even if he is German by heritage and history).

Hey jestrfyl, you state that the Pope doesn’t speak for all christians. what do you think catholics are? there are alot of people calling themselves christians, but it you want to get technical about it, catholics are christians. the Eucharist itself is the very meaning of true christians. early christians were being killed and tortured for celebrating the Eucharist. a king asked them why they wouldn’t stop. they replied- there can be no christians without the Eucharist and there can be no Eucharist without christians. Jesus said to Peter- satan wishes to sift you (meaning you all) like wheat, but Peter I pray for you in unity. I just heard a statistic that there are about or over 40,000 different christian denominations world wide. sift you like wheat indeed. I believe Peter to be the first Pope and his bones are buried under the Vatican. look at how many times the Eucharist is mentioned in Sacred Scripture, Old and New Testament. when Moses was leading God’s people out of the desert and they were hungry, God made it rain bread. take the blood of a lamb and put it over your doorpost during the first Passover. John the Baptist said about Jesus- behold the lamb of God. Jesus said- I am the bread of life, He also said- My body is real food, my blood is real drink, He also said- whoever eats my body and drinks my blood will have eternal life. don’t forget the Last Supper and the road to Ameus, when the disciples first noticed the Risen Jesus in the breaking of the bread. did you know that Bethlehem translated means house of bread? theres more, but I think that Iv’e made my point.

“Hey jestrfyl, you state that the Pope doesn’t speak for all christians. what do you think catholics are? there are alot of people calling themselves christians, but it you want to get technical about it, catholics are christians.”
I believe the operative word there was “all”. But in fact I imagine there are even a lot of Catholics who’d say he doesn’t speak for them.
“He also said- whoever eats my body and drinks my blood will have eternal life.”
Kinky!

“He also said-My body is real food. My blood is real drink.” FoS&A. And apparently the eating and drinking of those body materials leads to eternal life.
Sounds like cannibalism to me.

You don’t have to get technical to call RC Christians, they are. Who would think they weren’t?

Tiger, thanks again. I tried that and it says HTML code is Off and I don’t see how to turn it on. I did change my editor version there to advanced and can get those effects, there, but not here. Any chance they’ll let us use the fancy stuff here?
Sounds like a suggestion for staff who deal with the technical side of the blogs. Send an email request to the community mailbox. Can’t promise anything, but it’s worth a try.
community@staff.beliefnet.com
Beliefnet_Tiger

friendofsaints&angels-
The Eucharist is mentioned in the OT. Really? Can you quote me at least one verse for my edification?
Peace!

Tiger, I wrote them. We’ll see.

FoS&A
As has been pointed out by some of my colleagues here, the opperative word is “all”. Certainly RCC folks are Christians, but so are UCC folks (like me!)
Now, as to your “lesson” on the Eucharist, you need another run through in Cathecism class, or even a tour through my confirmation class. You have combined and confused all sorts of stries, lessons, and theologies. This is not even good RCC theology. The Eucharist is NOT in the OT. Manna was God’s gift to hungry people, to which he also served up quail – and it did not “rain” mana, it appeared like dew in the morning. The blood of the lamb got its start in the Passover event, but was ritualized in the Temple rituals of sacrifice (read Leviticus). The Emmaus meal was post- ressurection (sort of a first meal) and did not include wine. Jesus did not appropriate a Coca Cola slogan (or vice versa).
I prefer to think that in your excitement, haste caused your theology to tumble out like legos from a box. I hope you can begin to build more recognizable structures fro the multiple pieces lying in such a jumble.
Slow down, take a breath, think clearly, and try again.

NateW.,
“It really baffles me that so many people who aren’t Catholic and have no interest in traditional Catholic thought and practice spend so much of their time complaining about what the Pope does. Are your lives really that boring?”
No they’re not. Constantly being attacked by certain people of faith prevents boredom from getting a foothold.
Besides, it’s evident why “so many people who aren’t Catholic … spend so much of their time complaining about what the Pope does”. It’s because the Pope leads the call to prevent equality and justice for ALL gay and lesbian people – not just Catholic gays and lesbians. As a global faith ‘leader’, he influences SECULAR world leaders and insists they follow the Catholic line in making laws that govern ALL people, not just Catholics. And that’s just MY issue. What the Pope chooses to speak about affects many who are not Catholic, I assure you.