I think this is a wonderful start and the group seems to have insight that it is indeed a spiritual problem.

Is that crickets I here?

It has alliteration, meter, and a good beat. The people can boogie to it, even if they cannot explain it – sort of like “Inna Gadda Davida”

Maybe its one of those things if you can’t say anything nice…..
It does go to show how much racial equality really means to the frequent posters here. It only serves purpose when advocating for homosexuals then pull out racism and compare will ya. My point about racism is made very clear here pagan, JohnQ, nnmns jestrly, H22, and all of the missing voices here.

cknuck,
I think that for the most part I am in agreement with you on racism. We part ways on our thoughts about sexuality. I am of the opinion that our openess to people of every race should apply equally to people of various sexualities. An open door is an open door, hospitality for all does not have a limit, qualification, or exception.

cknuck damns us when we do comment and when we don’t. That’s a damned shame.
There’s a lot of work to be done in that area and I hope this helps. Feel better?

pagan, JohnQ, nnmns jestrly, H22, and all you other “missing voices”, why don’t you admit that you’re really just a bunch of “homo-loving, damned racists”?
(I sure hope you know I’m kidding…)

I’m ‘hurt’ that I was left out of the list and merely consigned to the “missing voices” hordes.
Having said that, I see not a modicum of connection or logic in the 2 statements, “It does go to show how much racial equality really means to the frequent posters here. It only serves purpose when advocating for homosexuals then pull out racism and compare will ya.
Care to clarify, cknuck?

Cknuck, I knew you were waiting for one of us “marked people” to comment, reason for not falling for the bait.
Actually I agree with these Evangelical Ministers it does fall under spiritual problems, as well as social problems with some people. As a young person, 1930′s to 1960′s I fought aganist the social problems in my own personal way. 1970′s to now I’ve fought against both social and spirtual problems; before that I wasn’t aware of GLBT. Like Jestrfyl you can’t seperate racism and sexism, the Bible puts them right in the middle of peoples lives to be fought out. So fight with us if you must, but this is all I plan to say.

I don’t know you enough to have any expectations ex-Pentecostal, I only know that you are pro-homosexual, but I’ll try to include you.
I am pleased to see responses even yours ecl your truth no matter how jaded is refreshing.
jest you are right, “hospitality for all does not have a limit, qualification, or exception.”
But acceptance does and what we should accept as truth has its limits. We do part ways on what is acceptable as truth sexuality wise but this is about racism and I am just pointing out that most of the gang here seems to be more committed to supporting homosexuality then to eliminate racism.
For instance eastcoast started hating me for mentioning how the Black Jews in Israel are kept in camps/compounds and treated much differently then the white Jews even in this day and age.
And how H22 and pagan try to claim to understand the Black American experience just because they lived in a time and area and witnessed some bad treatment of Black Americans they didn’t know or care to know or defend.
Or you jest and nnmns and your casual attitudes and comedic responses to critical Black American’s problems. Now I know that none of you guys are not evil nor have you did anything really bad to Blacks, but sometimes doing nothing perpetuates doing bad.

“Or you jest and nnmns and your casual attitudes and comedic responses to critical Black American’s problems.”
I challenge you to point out even one of my “comedic responses to critical Black American’s problems”.

For instance eastcoast started hating me for mentioning how the Black Jews in Israel are kept in camps/compounds and treated much differently then the white Jews even in this day and age.
Why I allow myself to fall into this trap of responding to outright fabrications and falsehoods, half-truths, and out of context quotes is beyond me – must be my “jaded” self – but here goes…
and BTW – frankly – if indeed you ever did say such a thing as above, I don’t remember it, but more important, I wouldn’t believe a word of it. Israel makes great efforts to take black Jews from Africa who want to come to Israel and make that possible. However, I am sure you can find some website to find what you want to believe and post it here.
I also don’t for a moment doubt your ability to take something I posted four years ago and post it again here out of context, as you have done this type of thing in the past.
cknuck – I don’t hate you. I hate the way you persistently twist things that other posters say and somehow paint a picture of martyrdom and victimhood about yourself.
Truth be told – I don’t hate you, but I truly do pity you. It’s very limiting to live as though you are alone in having clarity and insight. Must be so very frustrating for you to have to show others how wrong they are on such a constant basis.

CK, I never indicated I hate you. I strongly disagree with most of your points of view.
I could make the same erroneous statement as you: “cknuck has hated me almost from the time we started responding to each other’s posts, because I’m a white Jew and a liberal and I generally support Israel and he doesn’t hold any of the same points of view on major topics as I do nor does he speak out on the things that are important to me.”
Doesn’t make it any more true, but might have the same emotional impact you are trying to make accusing me.

“even yours ecl…no matter how jaded is refresing”
Who really appears to hate whom?
I feel damned with faint praise.
At least I’m refreshing. It’d be so disappointing to feel as though I were regarded as stale and boring. I’d much rather be viewed as refreshing, kind of like a cool drink on a hot summer’s day.

cknuck:
Like ECLady, I’m falling only once for the “bait”. I’m not going to express an opinion on this subject because you really don’t think I know anything about it. Been there, done that.

eastcoastlady:
“Pagan, JohnQ,nnmns,jestrfyl,H22, and all you other “missing voices” why don’t you admit that you’re really just a bunch of “homo-loving damned racists?”
Oh No! You figured out my secret!! (Yes, I knew you were kidding and so am I with the above response, but there might be some who think otherwise).

WOW of all the responses generated none seem to have any concern for the article or the plight of poor Blacks in America or the Blacks in Israel kept in compounds and who live in underground sewer systems. Blacks in American Ghettos are still dying of lead poisoning and I just recently read that the government is using sludge the refined human waste to spread in those areas claiming it will combat the lead poisoning. Kids who are already deal an unfair hand in the educational system are also plagued with brain damage from lead poisoning.
I may have unfairly accused you nnmns I did not mean to lump you in but I do not see any level of compassion from you to these types of situation as I do when it comes to men desiring to marry men or God bashing. We do seem to share the same passion concerning the Middle East but when it comes to the poor and disadvantage of America your passion is with same sex marriage and getting the Christian God out of America. A race of people are dying verses the sexuality of people and their desires, and the popularity goes to men marrying men and women marrying women. Deep group.

cknuck, I am bothered by the waste disposal sites being predominately in or near poor and/or black and/or I suppose Latino areas. I’m bothered by chemical plants in such areas or no doubt in some cases the fact those are the only places said groups can buy. My impression is that lead poisoning is due to old lead paint and to lead left from old leaded gasoline and I’m sorry that anyone is experiencing that; it’s tragic when anyone’s brain is cut off at the knees like that and I’ve no doubt those same groups suffer more than the middle class and especially more than the wealthy.
I’m not aware of the human waste sludge scheme you mentioned. Some people no doubt think I believe too many stories about our government. Whether that’s a similar case I have no idea.
But these things just don’t come up here nearly as much as stories about the Middle East. They should, because there’s as much (im)morality involved in those decisions as in any we discuss. But they don’t so I don’t talk about them. I do care.

Experiments for food stamps
BALTIMORE (AP) – Scientists using federal grants spread fertilizer made from human and industrial wastes on yards in poor, black neighborhoods to test whether it might protect children from lead poisoning in the soil. Families were assured the sludge was safe and were never told about any harmful ingredients.
Nine low-income families in Baltimore row houses agreed to let researchers till the sewage sludge into their yards and plant new grass. In exchange, they were given food coupons as well as the free lawns as part of a study published in 2005 and funded by the Housing and Urban Development Department.
Meanwhile, there has been a paucity of research into the possible harmful effects of heavy metals, pharmaceuticals, other chemicals and disease-causing microorganisms often found in sludge.

ck,
I have been involved in the racial problems in the communities I have lived for decades – since I was a high school student. I count as friends pastors and members of predominantly African American churches – and they call me friend as well (it is not always a two way deal). I know all too well how the poorer communities become the dumping site for all manner of waste and dangerous cast-offs (and not only chemicals, but even human “cast-offs”, like sexual predators). I am not blind to the continuing issues. But I am also aware of the strength and joy that is harbored in these communities. I do choose to joke rather than stand and point my finger in a harangue that accomplishes little more than annoyance (except when that is a useful tactic for getting a person to act).
But I also know that the door is open to ALL people. I have known the sting of African American homosexuals (both genders) being excluded from their homes and churches. I have experienced the depth and quality of their love and of their sadness, and the sadness of their families and church. And I have been invited to share in moments of reconciliation that are surely experiences of grace. In my church we practice open communion – the grain and the grape are given to all people. It is not a reward for “good” behavior, but an offer for anyone on the journey. I try hard to be open to all the possibilities God throws my way, making grace and not obedience the rule of the day. It is not always easy and it does put me in some awkward situations. But it is where I know I need to be. I will not convert you friend, nor will you convert me. I simply hope we can continue as Children of the Divine Other, that great force some call God (and a friend calls Howard as in “Howard be thy name”), members of a distinct and unique, and divisive family. Bt all the most interesting families are dysfunctional.

cknuck, wow that sounds like a strange experiment, the kind one would be far more likely to perform on other peoples’ children than on one’s own.
It seems to me those folks might be able to sue since it sounds like a possibly dangerous experiment about which they were not given enough information to give informed consent. But I’m no lawyer or expert on that sort of thing.
I also know for years Milwaukee has sold some of its treated waste as a fertilizer, Milorganite, some of which likely gets spread on all sorts of yards and probably in all sorts of gardens. They claim (see their web site) it’s quite safe.

WOW, cknuck, not one word from you about where you got your information about the supposed mistreatment of blacks in Israel (I notice how you always focus your venom there).
Yes, mistreatment of blacks is atrocious wherever it happens.
But “not one word” from you how Jews are still oppressed all over the Arab countries in the Middle East, in Russia, and various places all over the world; how Jews are blamed for so many of the so-called social ills that plague this country, seeing as how we own the media, banks, government, etc…
Prejudice is bad no matter whom the victim.

Most people have issues that are nearest and dearest to them, where they choose to focus their energy.
That does mean they are complicit in or unsympathetic to issues nearer and dearer to you.

My passion is the poor of this world all races, period. People dying of disease, hunger, thirst, war, and the world pollution, there is no greater issues and they are near but maybe not dear to all of the earth’s population.

ck,
I am with you all the way. I simply choose toinclude a group that crosses all races and economic strata. They too are subject to all the infirmaties of humanity, and more besides.

The whole point jest is by your voice that your heart is focused mainly on attacking Christ’s deity, supporting men trying to act out the role of June Cleaver and supporting mutilated hormone drugged up women who aspire to be billed as the first pregnant man. None of these things feed people, stop murders, help education for poor or bring world peace. So you are not with me all of the way, your heart shows up the most for homosexuality promotion. A lot of time and money to do the impossible, that is to rule against Gods decison about a person.

ck,
OK, I have missed entirely your reference in the second half of your first sentence. Did I miss something in the news? (I was away and on the road last week, so some things did miss my attention)
Now as to your second sentence, I know (personally) homosexual people who have been prevented from feeding hungry people, raising or educating children, or promoting peace – all simply because of their sexual orientation. These are people from different races and backgrounds. Should we not allow children to be raised in loving homes by parents who are gay? Should we not allow gay people tocare for the ill and injured? Should no gay people be allowed to protect our communitities as police and firefighters? I do not understand how their sexual orientation should prevent them from doing all these things? If they are able, willing and trained, are there no communities that would benefit from their presence and assistance? I am simply saying that just as race is no prohibition to any of these mighty works, neither is sexual orientation,

Th whole point jest is by your voice that your heart is focused mainly on attacking Christ’s deity, supporting men trying to act out the role of June Cleaver and supporting mutilated hormone drugged up women who aspire to be billed as the first pregnant man. None of these things feed people, stop murders, help education for poor or bring world peace. So you are not with me all of the way, your heart shows up the most for homosexuality promotion.
Jest,
Now that I know what you truly are, I don’t know if I can be friends with you anymore….

Anonymous,
I may not be friends with me either.
I have re-read the article (something I do once in a while) I think the name is catchy but the actual idea is flawed. I do not think we want to take a referendum. We simply want change to happen.

Jest, I’m sorry – i’m “anon” – forgot to log in….

ecl,
At least I know who is not my friend anymore. If this were kindergarten, I would guess that means you are not coming to my birthday party – if I were having one, which I am not.
Someone explain ck’s first statement to me, if you get a chance. I am amused and confused.

The whole point Jest is that by your voice your heart is on mainly attacking Christs Deity.
Is this what you meant Jestrfyl? It’s hard to know what Ck means, but it is insulting and he probably didn’t mean it that way, he is just trying to save your soul.
The exp. he is using for the couple who wanted to have their own child is so wrong and so without empathy. She cannot have natural childbirth because of whatever. Her husband is a transgender who has had medical counseling, and hormone therapy but either hasn’t got the money to complete the plastic surgery, or again I’m not clear on his reasoning for not completing his becoming a man all the way. Anyway he still had his womens organs, and when they talked about the various ways they could have their own child, such as a surrogate mother. He said I can carry our child, I’m still physcially able to. And they are doing this. After the child is born caesarian they will have their very own darling baby. Nothing obscene, nothing evil, different yes, creative, yes. Did it ever occur in Bibical times, probably not.
To many including Ck this is sinful, but you know what that baby will love his Mom and Dad and they will love him or her. It won’t matter what ck thinks or anyone else. God will bless them and love them as much as any one else.

Jest, as a reminder – you did know I was kidding, right?
I want to come to your party, if I have to throw one myself!
Pagan, it’s a shame how some people feel. Good friends of my husband and me are devout Catholics and in years past, have attended mass (almost) every day. I don’t know if they still do, but that has nothing to do with a lack of faith in Catholicism. Theis son is gay – he came out to them when he was in his early twenties. While the father at first had trouble accepting it and fearing for his son, the mother said that she could not imagine that God would hate and damn her son for who he is. It didn’t take much convincing for the father to accept this as true, also, and the son’s sister has always accepted him for who he is.
Frankly, I’d feel more comfortable having this gay man around my teenage boys than I would many, many heteros I could think of..

ECLady:
What a great story of “love”. Thanks for sharing that. Wouldn’t it be nice if all homosexual men and women were accepted by their parents and siblings? (and other folks too).

ecl, truly I know you were kidding. And as to birthdays – too many of a party. However, last year we partied down with about 30,000 of my other best friends, Parrotheads, at a Jimmy Buffett concert (we have been Parrotheads for almost 3 decades). This year – I expect it will be another day at the office and with committees. So it goes.
Wow, I miss a couple of days of the news and this is what happens! Well, I am all for creative solutions to difficult problems. I wonder if, while the surgery is in progress, the “dad” will have the other biological situation taken care of. Sure this is a bit confusing initially. But I have known transgendered people for many years, and they manage to establish and keep their identity with little problem. They are as loving and caring as anyone else, and more than many who abuse or neglect their children and family. Anything that promotes love, kindness, and justice is Godly. Everything else is flawed, problematic, and very human.

eastcoast “WOW, cknuck, not one word from you about where you got your information about the supposed mistreatment of blacks in Israel (I notice how you always focus your venom there).”
I suppose it would be easier for you to call my report on injustice to Blacks venom then to do something about it. My report by the way is on Israel and Black Jews not Jews in general so the spin is inappropriate.
And this article is on Black injustice also but as I observed before everyone’s passion is about homosexuality, you just can’t help to default, and yet at the drop of a dime you choose to compare homosexuality to being Black without knowing anything about it or doing anything about the Black struggle, but use it to your advantage in promoting homosexuality. You guy illustrate my point brilliantly and yet you don’t see. Amazing!

Ummmmmmmmmmm….. jest, pagan, could you throw me a line here?
at the drop of a dime you choose to compare homosexuality to being Black without knowing anything about it or doing anything about the Black struggle, but use it to your advantage in promoting homosexuality.
Which one of you made this leap? I’m not following.
Oh, and BTW, cknuck, “defending” gays is not nearly the same thing as “promoting homosexuality”, but that’s your own “spin”.
My report by the way is on Israel and Black Jews not Jews in general so the spin is inappropriate.
What spin? You’re the one that made up this statement and I still don’t believe it’s true, so unless you can come up with some reliable sources (note the word “reliable”), I’m not buying…
It never ceases to amaze how someone who spends so much time spouting supposedly Christian values can be so vehement on and virulent with attacks on all who don’t see life through their tinted lenses.

ecl,
I am lost too. I guess I missed ck’s report on Black Jews. I have devoted large amounts of time and energy to improving inter-racial connections, relationships, and communication. Sure, sometimes I feel like I am filling a swimmingpool with a tea spoon. But once in a while something great – and usually small – happens and it all feels worthwhile.
ck,
I like and respect you, even in our differences. A synopsis of your report might help. We are not trying to work against you. I simply believe in “holding the door open” for everyone, including some people you might not choose to sit at the Table with.

pagansis,
Thanks for replying. It’s somewhat validating that I’m not alone in my perceptions. I no longer am “floundering…”
Good night. So tired….

ECLady:
I think my reply to you was removed. Glad you saw it before it was. (or am I losing my mind or eyesight?).

I believe it was removed. I guess we’re not supposed to get that personal.
‘S okay… I saw it.

Yes, I must have broken a rule. Sometimes it’s hard not to.