Well, I think a real news story would be to quote a prominent anybody who does not think Hagee is an extremist.
Actually, I for one am glad that Rabbi Yoffie has come forward with his denouncement of Hagee. Hagee is not interested in the Jewish people…(accept for those that might be willing to convert to his brand of prejudice-supportive Christianity)….he only cares about the geography and ancient ruins.
I try to accept every human being as they are. Hagee is one of only maybe 6-10 people in the world that I could not sit down to lunch and discuss religion/philosophy/politics/etc. I know this is my weakness…not his….with that said….I still would not break bread with him.
Peace!

You show good taste and immense tolerance JohnQ.
I think it tells a lot about McCain that he embraces Hagee’s support. He also calls Rod Parsley his “moral compass”. Parsley thinks the US exists to defeat Islam. Together with McCain’s gleeful desire to “Bomb, bomb, bomb Iran” (sung to the tune of “Barbara Ann”) we can foresee, if McCain were elected, wars to make our Iraq disaster look pleasant.
Oh, and here’s what the Catholic League says about Hagee: ‘[he] has waged an unrelenting war against the Catholic Church. For example, he likes calling it “The Great Whore,” an “apostate church,” the “anti-Christ,” and a “false cult system.”‘
These are the guys who give John McCain his moral guidance. The guys (and occasional “ladies” who give him his economic guidance are lobbyists for big companies.

Hagee is disgusting (he says Jews bring anti-Semitism on ourselves). We should have nothing to do with him.

I WAS a fervent supporter of McCain.
I know longer recognize the man I admired so much.
Mikey Weinstein is doing great work combating men like Haggee who are trying to control the US military. http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

Is Hagee another Jerry Falwell or worse? My guess, worse. Israel doesn’t need his kind of financial support! Good for Rabbi Yoffie making public his feelings.
McCain as President? Not needed.

Hagee is a brilliant fool. I often wonder how people like this are formed. To be so knowledgeable and intelligent how did he miss such a relatively simple message? Is there some Jesus in him; I don’t know but he is way off the bead. He brings to mind something one of my mentors shared with me: “he’s so heavenly minded that he’s no earthly good.” Jesus was so clear I wonder how so many miss His message: “how can you say you love God who you cannot see when you cannot love your brother who you can see.” I feel sorry for Hagee, he could do so much good on earth if he stop trying to orchestrate and facilitate the second coming. Jesus also said that was none of our business.

Oh yeah what doesn’t surprise me is that Israel will never turn down his support as long as it feeds their nasty war machine.

Hagee is the extreme of the “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” Chritianity. Almost all Christian theologies believe that “in the sweet by and by” there will be no more Jews because they will all have converted or been thrown into the lake of fire. Hagee is more honest and straight forward in his anti-semitism than most. I’ll take an honest bigot to a closet one anytime.

sin I don’t know Christians like the ones you have described, the Christians I work side by side with are about saving lives, but I can see you fancy yourself as the judge and jury type you claim others are, how does that work for you.

Well Chuck, as long as the Palestinians have the Gulf States funding their war machine, the Iranians rush towards an A-bomb, the Syrians build their military more and more, the Israelis feel they need all the help they can get – especially when their are people like you in the West (who don’t seem to contemplate – or care about – the Arab desire for another 6 million more dead Jews) trying to pull support away from Israel.
Personally, I wish Jews didn’t have to rely on any help from Xians, but that will happen when the messiah comes.

I think if you put the whole lot of those TBN preachers (Hagee, Parsley, Hinn, etc.) in masks & colorful spandex we could have a new Legion of Doom on our hands.

It seems to me Scott both Israel and some Arab nations desire the same thing, that is the root of the problem have it or destroy it for both peoples.

cknuck I’m with you in broad strokes but not the details, or something like that.
I think there are people in both Israel and some Arab nations in the area, including Palestine, that profit from the present situation and may even think they’d profit from a war. They can be people stealing Palestinian land, people who like the military life and the funding this brings them and probably others. Then there are the insane Christians thirsting for a war there so the “end times” would come and they’d get to look down and watch a lot of people they disagree with or hate suffer horrible deaths. Or something like that.
There are also people in all those places who are far sicker of this than you or I because they live it and what they want is peace, hopefully a fair peace to prevent strife from coming right back.
And with the way the Israeli lobby sways US politics we are particularly unable, either party, to be of help in that area. Almost surely the best thing the US can do is to totally withdraw from that area and let those folks settle it as best they can. I wish it were otherwise.

I agree with you nnmns and my heart is with the Palestinian farmers and poor folk that suffer because Israel, the US and some crazy Christians (not all)

“Then there are the insane Christians thirsting for a war there so the “end times” would come and they’d get to look down and watch a lot of people they disagree with or hate suffer horrible deaths. Or something like that.”
nnmns,
This is mainstream Christianity, not the bloodthirsty fantasy of a fringe few. If you believe there is a “New Testament” you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus will come back some day to judge the quick and the dead, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe you have to profess that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus will come again, you believe that the Jews are wrong and will be exposed as wrong. The gospels tell us that even Jesus believed the Jews were wrong. Read Matthew 21:33-45 and pay particular attention to verses 40 and 41. It’s ugly. And many have and will suffer because of it.

What do you mean by “believe the Jews are wrong”? Do you mean they believe the Jews who don’t see Jesus as the Messiah are believed to be wrong in their interpretation of “facts”? Or do you mean “wrong” in some strange moral sense, or what?
I read the Bible sections (the Internet is so handy!) and, not being a Bible reader I don’t get as excited as you obviously do. I suppose there are preachers ready to stir up people by telling them to get out and be those new tenants or maybe help God bring the wretches to a wretched end or something. What do you see that section as meaning and causing?
And I sure am glad I don’t try to draw morality or anything else from such a convoluted book.

sinsote-
“This is mainstream Christianity, not the bloodthirsty fantasy of a fringe few. If you believe there is a “New Testament” you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe Jesus is the fulfillment of prophecy, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus will come back some day to judge the quick and the dead, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe you have to profess that Jesus is Lord and Saviour, you believe the Jews are wrong. If you believe that Jesus will come again, you believe that the Jews are wrong and will be exposed as wrong. The gospels tell us that even Jesus believed the Jews were wrong. Read Matthew 21:33-45 and pay particular attention to verses 40 and 41. It’s ugly. And many have and will suffer because of it.”
I disagree with you. IMO,Hagee is a fringe fanatic. I will agree that there are more than a few fringe fanatics….but, he hardly represents the POV of most Christians in the USA.
It appears that you are trying to make this into an either this or that….with each POV exclusive of the other. IMO, there is much gray area. IMO, Jews do not have to be wrong for one to be a Christian. From his preaching and his writing, Hagee believes that Jews must become Christian or burn in hell. I do not believe that most Christians in the USA today believe that. I certainly don’t. And, while I don’t believe in the existence of the Devil….if you look closely at Hagee’s face (and, that of Bene16) can’t you easily imagine them both dressed in red with horns and a pointy tail?
I believe in the Bible. For the time in which it was originally written, I think represents the society and beliefs of the people of the area. Certainly it has been rewritten countless times each time to more closely represent the POV of the authorities of that time. It is the best tool for manipulation that man has ever utilized.
I have no doubt that I will interact with you, nnmns, pagansister, etc in the hereafter. I am not so sure everything will be white with lots of fluffy clounds and Philadelphia Cream Cheese…but, I do thing y’all will be there.
Peace!

BTW, I am sure that I will interact with Henrietta, jesterfyl, cknuck, and the rest of the regulars in the hereafter also. I was not leaving you out of my earlier post….my point was that I am not sure that one must be Christian in order to have eternal life.
Peace!

I mean that Christians believe that Jews are wrong in not accepting Jesus as the messiah and that in not accepting Jesus, god “will put those wretches to a wretched end”(as scripture so elegantly puts it).
I in no way state that you, nnmns, believe this, but I disagree with your position that this is a fringe opinion among Christians. I assert that this is part and parcel of Christian theology and that Hagee and his ilk are just being honest about it. There are now, and have been articles on B-net about Catholic Good Friday payers hoping that Jews will convert which,is in effect, a prayer that Jews will no longer exist. Christians ultimately hope that, in the fulfillment of time, no other religion will exist except their “true” one. This is anti-semitic, anti-islam, anti-hindu, anti-buddhist, anti-pagan, anti-anmimist, anti-….

sin, your theology is a little off, and Jesus would certainly believe you are wrong. What I believe about Jews and what I believe about Israel is two different things and I think it is the same with Jesus.
No Christians I know are not bloodthirsty, as a matter of fact I don’t know any bloodthirsty people thank God. But there are people who are willing to spill blood for land, power and money. I don’t know any personally but I am confident they come in all sorts and sizes.
JohnQ, there is eternal life and then there is eternal life, I believe what Christ Jesus said in that no man comes to the Father but through Him. I have my reasons to believe that all other religions are wrong and although they may have some rewards they don’t lead to heaven with Christ the ultimate reward.

cknuck-
I know that is what you believe….and, you know that I respect you and your belief.
That does not change my belief that there is some truth in all religions (or, at least most).
Peace!

John Q,
I have no doubt that you believe in the Bible, and god knows, that the the Bible has been a force for good in certain hands and at certain times (I writing this on the anniversary of MLK Jr.’s assination and am mindful of the man and his inspiration), but you have to disregard a huge amount a holy writ to be a believing Christian and maintain that anyone can achieve the eternal reward. The Bible, Hebrew and Christian, is extremely exclusionary. I have no desire to engage in a debate where I quote some bit of hateful scripture and have you say that it’s been mis-intrerpreted, mis-quoted, mis-applied, mis-translated, or no longer relevant. But alas, that’s what I believe humane Christians must do to reconcile their better selves with their Holy Scriptures. BTW, I believe the great party in the after life will be a huge no show. I’d much rather party and dance with you(and your partner — heavy, disappointed sigh) in the here and now.

“JohnQ, there is eternal life and then there is eternal life, I believe what Christ Jesus said in that no man comes to the Father but through Him. I have my reasons to believe that all other religions are wrong and although they may have some rewards they don’t lead to heaven with Christ the ultimate reward.”
Thanks, cknuck, I knew you would come through amd prove my point.

I agree with you nnmns and my heart is with the Palestinian farmers and poor folk that suffer because Israel, the US and some crazy Christians (not all)
I’m sure you never shed a tear when Jewish children are blown up by homicide bombers.

“I’m sure you never shed a tear when Jewish children are blown up by homicide bombers.”
Literally, no; I’m not much of a tear shedder. But I think and hope I have equal concern for Israeli and Palestinian lives. And while not many Israeli kids are missing school or taking it in real bad circumstances a lot of Palestinian kids are. And generally a lot more Palestinian lives are lost than Israeli lives. So my sympathies overall lie more with the Palestinians, as I think should be the case with any fair minded person who gets by the bias in the US news media.
As far as what Christians “believe” I think it varies a lot. I think the most serious Christians (my usage) probably think as you said some of the time. I think there are a lot of Christians who never think about that sort of thing and it’s likely hard to say how they’d come down on it if they had to decide. And I think there are thoughtful Christians who’ve decided there’s a lot of bunk in the Bible and they pick out parts that wouldn’t include that.
In other words I have some faith (!) that Christians, like Muslims, are largely moderates who ignore the ugly parts of their holy books. That doesn’t make them safe religions because those ugly parts are still there and, as we’ve seen in America, fundamentalists can take over from the moderates. And I don’t know what these megachurches say about questions like this; maybe they are also of many minds.

JohnQ: “I have no doubt that I will interact with you nnmns, pagansister etc. in the hereafter.” That would be a privilege, JohnQ.
Hagee is the Christian equivalent of the Muslim extremists, IMO. I don’t think all Christians are hung up on the “End Times.” The Christians I know, and that is most of my family and friends, aren’t into converting Jews to “save” them. In fact they have great respect for the Jewish people and their history.
“…if you look closely at Hagee’s face (and that of Ben 16) can’t you easily imagine them both dressed up in red with horns and a pointy tail.” Priceless, JohnQ!

You are aware that the homicide bombers generally target areas where young people congregate. I shed tears for them.
So my sympathies overall lie more with my family.
And I’m wondering if CK’s heart is with any Jewish victims at all.

Scott my heart is with all victims everywhere in the world where serious harm is done, I help victims it is my life.

Well now! I just got here for the first time, and I think the comments seem pretty well to exemplify the problem.
There is a wildly extreme school/kindergarten of really, really bad theology called “Christian Zionism,” which thinks that Revelation (unlike all other prophetic scripture) is not primarily criticism, but primarily prediction of future events, and that the restoration of a state of Israel is a necessary precursor to the Second Coming. Therefore, Christians, who (supposedly) desire to hasten the Second Coming, would strive to establish and strengthen that State.
Neither the article nor the comments state explicitly that Hagee is a Christian Zionist, but it sounds like he is. Does anybody know? (BTW – do note that “Christian Zionism” and “Zionism,” are NOT AT ALL the same thing.)
There are several problems with this notion, most of which are pretty obvious. Some of the less-obvious problems are:
- if Jesus cannot return to “draw all people to (him)self” – note that, by the way – unless a State of Israel has already been established, then God is not omnipotent. And,
- if Jesus (can, but) will not return until that State has been established, then he depends on humans to bring the state of that State into being, then humans are equal with God. And,
- if Jesus does not return unless humans bring that state (or any other state, for that matter) into being, then humans control Jesus, and Christian religion thereby becomes a form of magic.
In any event, Christian Zionism is as stupid an eschatological theology as you can find – and you can find a lot of ‘em if you look. Whether Hagee is a Christian Zionist or not, his seems to be among them.